Just one comment, Linda. I tell students (and teachers) that if a passive sentence seems weak or out of place in a particular context, the problem is not that it's in the passive voice: The problem is nearly always that the sentence has an ineffective topic and/or focus. The passive allows us put a particular noun phrase or nominal in subject--i.e., topic--position. The "pass" marginal comment ought never to be used--even for an awkward or ineffective passive: The comment ought to focus on the real problem. Martha >Interesting thread! A couple of quick comments in response to Craig >and Nancy re: > >" ..the passive does tend to make writing impersonal. That is one >reason, though, that >it shows up so much in scientific discourse. It doesn't matter who >heated the mixture for seven minutes at four hundred degrees, just that >it was done and can be replicated. (Notice the paasives at the end of >the last sentence.) Impersonal is not always good, not always bad, but >something we can benefit from noticing." > > >1. Passive does not always make writing impersonal. For example, if >I write: "I was delighted by your post," I think that I am writing >something MORE personal than "Your post delighted me." The >difference, of course, is where I want to place focus, on the effect >or cause (or beginning or endpoint) of the event: on my becoming >delighted OR on your post causing me to become delighted. > >2. Scientific writing has become more and more 'impersonal' over the >years. Earlier examples of scientific discourse make frequent use >of the first person and are much more narrative in nature than the >scientific language of today. > >3. In business writing, it is often very important to use passive >and other strategies in order to deny or obfuscate responsibility, >lest the business make itself liable. > >4. When I deal with passive in the classroom, I find it more >effective to talk about it in terms of its semantics, particularly >in terms of agency and causality, rather than in terms of its >syntactic structure (which is what students have heard for years and >which some of them have never quite understood). > >Good discussion-- >"another" Linda > >Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. >Associate Professor >Assistant Academic Director of Writing >University of Maryland University College >3501 University Boulevard, East >Adelphi, MD 20783 > >________________________________ > >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig Hancock >Sent: Sat 3/8/2008 9:42 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: past perfect--a final note > > > >Nancy, > I like the last part of your post the best. You're right; the passive >does tend to make writing impersonal. That is one reason, though, that >it shows up so much in scientific discourse. It doesn't matter who >heated the mixture for seven minutes at four hundred degrees, just that >it was done and can be replicated. (Notice the paasives at the end of >the last sentence.) Impersonal is not always good, not always bad, but >something we can benefit from noticing. > I'm not as happy with the idea of "complete picture" because it assumes >that each and every sentence is a complete and separate statement, not >tied to discourse context or situation. If someone asks "how are you >doing with preparations for the party," you might very well say "the >cake is baked, but we need to pick up the drinks." The baker of the >cake may be already known or irrelevant. > There are functional approaches to language that are highly systematic. >I think we need a comprehensive understanding of language before we >give out prescriptive rules (the old "first, do no harm" maxim.) I have >said on list many times that I feel a disinterested, primarily >descriptive linguistics cannot solve the problem. Because people want >advice on using language, they turn to the handbooks. It's hard to >blame people for doing that when they don't have a practical >alternative. > Linda points out that "it"and "there" are often extra words, but they >are also highly functional ways to extrapose a subject into focal >prominence. "It is easy to love you." "There's more than one way to >skin a cat." Linda wants to help, but she is figuring it out for >herself on the basis of her own thoughtful understanding. It's a >daunting task. > It's not a matter of finding practical ways to use a formal >understanding, but of recognizing that function is already built in. >We need to look at how language works. Since effectiveness is context >specific, we need to look at ways in which language is sensitive to >context. And by "sensitive to context", I don't mean just dialect and >social register, but interaction and the construction of shared >meaning. > >Craig > >> Like you, Linda, I work with a lot of people in the business community (as >> well as in the legal and judicial field). They want to know why their >> MSWord programs put green squiggly lines under every instance of the >> passive voice. They do not know (1) what the passive voice is or (2) why >> they are being advised to revise it. >> >> Here is what I tell them: >> >> First, I define the passive voice as a sentence in which the subject of >> an active verb is also the recipient of that action. >> >> Second, I tell them that it is perfectly fine to use the passive voice >> (which usually launches a rant about all the other ways that MS Word >> misleads writers about "problems" in their writing). >> >> Third, I tell them that in many cases it is better to write in the active >> voice because passive voice sentences frequently fail to give the reader a >> complete picture. If I read "The cake was baked," the picture in my mind >> is fuzzy because there is no agent for that action. Good writing seeks to >> elicit a picture in the reader's mind that matches the picture the writer >> is trying to convey, and passive voice sentences often relay fuzzier >> pictures than active voice sentences--not always, but often, and for the >> writer who is getting a green squiggly line under nearly every verb in a >> document, this point is worth considering. >> >> Finally, I point out that many business writers use the passive voice to >> avoid using first-person pronouns--something they were taught to do back >> when the paradigm for businesseses was to maintain professional distance >> from the reader. They will write, for example, "Your request has been >> deinied" or "Your cooperation is appreciated" to avoid saying 'We have >> denied your request" or "We appreciate your cooperation." It strikes me >> that sentences such as these last two active voice sentences are more >> personal (while still being professional), while the first two passive > > voice constructions seem more institutional and impersonal. >> >> Ed and Craig, do these points reflect a functional approach to language or >> a group (or personal!) prejudice? >> >> Nancy >> >> >> >> ---- Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> In my business writing and grammar workshops, I strongly suggest >>> avoiding >>> passive voice when a sentence contains all the components of an active >>> sentence. Those are normally the ones ending in a "by" prepositional >>> phrase. Since people in the business world are so darn wordy (they tell >>> me >>> it's a habit from trying to fill those 500-word theme requirements), I >>> offer >>> them the challenge of looking to save 50 cents a word for every >>> unnecessary >>> one they use. >>> >>> So they'd save a dollar by changing the following passive sentence to an >>> active one: >>> >>> Passive: The proposal was proofread by the partner. >>> Active; The partner proofread the proposal. >>> >>> To find such passives, I have them use the Control F ("F" stands for >>> "Find") >>> feature in Microsoft Word to find the word "by." They prefer that to >>> having >>> their grammar checkers simply indicating "Passive" without always >>> offering >>> the active version. >>> >>> By the way, the Control F technique works for finding any words students >>> use >>> too repetitiously. Many struggle with using "that" unnecessarily. >>> Also, >>> one of my pet peeves is expletives, so I have my participants search for > >> "It" and "There" to identify and then eliminate them. >>> >>> I hope these tips help all of you too. >>> >>> Linda >>> >>> Linda Comerford >>> Comerford Consulting >>> 317.786.6404 >>> [log in to unmask] >>> www.comerfordconsulting.com <http://www.comerfordconsulting.com/> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster >>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 2:05 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: past perfect--a final note >>> >>> >>> Craig may well be right about Orwell's sentiments; however, Orwell >>> himself >>> near the end of his essay offers a set of six "rules" (the word is his). >>> His fourth rule is "Never use the passive where you can use the active." >>> He >>> doesn't say "where you can use the active" but not the passive. But he >>> uses >>> passives in four of the first 15 sentences of "Politics," and it's not >>> at >>> all difficult to substitute actives for each them. >>> Hurrah for Craig's "we need a more functional orientation to language so >>> that choice can be built on something more than personal or group >>> prejudice." >>> >>> Ed Schuster >>> >>> >>> ************** >>> It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. >>> (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) To join or leave >>> this >>> LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave >>> the >>> list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/