Great point, Martha. Also, your explanation for that/which was terrific. Linda Comerford 317.786.6404 [log in to unmask] www.comerfordconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martha Kolln Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 5:17 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: past perfect--a final note Just one comment, Linda. I tell students (and teachers) that if a passive sentence seems weak or out of place in a particular context, the problem is not that it's in the passive voice: The problem is nearly always that the sentence has an ineffective topic and/or focus. The passive allows us put a particular noun phrase or nominal in subject--i.e., topic--position. The "pass" marginal comment ought never to be used--even for an awkward or ineffective passive: The comment ought to focus on the real problem. Martha >Interesting thread! A couple of quick comments in response to Craig and >Nancy re: > >" ..the passive does tend to make writing impersonal. That is one >reason, though, that it shows up so much in scientific discourse. It >doesn't matter who heated the mixture for seven minutes at four hundred >degrees, just that it was done and can be replicated. (Notice the >paasives at the end of the last sentence.) Impersonal is not always >good, not always bad, but something we can benefit from noticing." > > >1. Passive does not always make writing impersonal. For example, if I >write: "I was delighted by your post," I think that I am writing >something MORE personal than "Your post delighted me." The difference, >of course, is where I want to place focus, on the effect or cause (or >beginning or endpoint) of the event: on my becoming delighted OR on >your post causing me to become delighted. > >2. Scientific writing has become more and more 'impersonal' over the >years. Earlier examples of scientific discourse make frequent use of >the first person and are much more narrative in nature than the >scientific language of today. > >3. In business writing, it is often very important to use passive and >other strategies in order to deny or obfuscate responsibility, lest the >business make itself liable. > >4. When I deal with passive in the classroom, I find it more effective >to talk about it in terms of its semantics, particularly in terms of >agency and causality, rather than in terms of its syntactic structure >(which is what students have heard for years and which some of them >have never quite understood). > >Good discussion-- >"another" Linda > >Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. >Associate Professor >Assistant Academic Director of Writing >University of Maryland University College >3501 University Boulevard, East >Adelphi, MD 20783 > >________________________________ > >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig >Hancock >Sent: Sat 3/8/2008 9:42 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: past perfect--a final note > > > >Nancy, > I like the last part of your post the best. You're right; the >passive does tend to make writing impersonal. That is one reason, >though, that it shows up so much in scientific discourse. It doesn't >matter who heated the mixture for seven minutes at four hundred >degrees, just that it was done and can be replicated. (Notice the >paasives at the end of the last sentence.) Impersonal is not always >good, not always bad, but something we can benefit from noticing. > I'm not as happy with the idea of "complete picture" because it >assumes that each and every sentence is a complete and separate >statement, not tied to discourse context or situation. If someone asks >"how are you doing with preparations for the party," you might very >well say "the cake is baked, but we need to pick up the drinks." The >baker of the cake may be already known or irrelevant. > There are functional approaches to language that are highly systematic. >I think we need a comprehensive understanding of language before we >give out prescriptive rules (the old "first, do no harm" maxim.) I have >said on list many times that I feel a disinterested, primarily >descriptive linguistics cannot solve the problem. Because people want >advice on using language, they turn to the handbooks. It's hard to >blame people for doing that when they don't have a practical >alternative. > Linda points out that "it"and "there" are often extra words, but >they are also highly functional ways to extrapose a subject into focal >prominence. "It is easy to love you." "There's more than one way to >skin a cat." Linda wants to help, but she is figuring it out for >herself on the basis of her own thoughtful understanding. It's a >daunting task. > It's not a matter of finding practical ways to use a formal >understanding, but of recognizing that function is already built in. >We need to look at how language works. Since effectiveness is context >specific, we need to look at ways in which language is sensitive to >context. And by "sensitive to context", I don't mean just dialect and >social register, but interaction and the construction of shared >meaning. > >Craig > >> Like you, Linda, I work with a lot of people in the business >> community (as well as in the legal and judicial field). They want to >> know why their MSWord programs put green squiggly lines under every >> instance of the passive voice. They do not know (1) what the passive >> voice is or (2) why they are being advised to revise it. >> >> Here is what I tell them: >> >> First, I define the passive voice as a sentence in which the subject >> of an active verb is also the recipient of that action. >> >> Second, I tell them that it is perfectly fine to use the passive >> voice (which usually launches a rant about all the other ways that >> MS Word misleads writers about "problems" in their writing). >> >> Third, I tell them that in many cases it is better to write in the >> active voice because passive voice sentences frequently fail to give >> the reader a complete picture. If I read "The cake was baked," the >> picture in my mind is fuzzy because there is no agent for that >> action. Good writing seeks to elicit a picture in the reader's mind >> that matches the picture the writer is trying to convey, and passive >> voice sentences often relay fuzzier pictures than active voice >> sentences--not always, but often, and for the writer who is getting >> a green squiggly line under nearly every verb in a document, this point is worth considering. >> >> Finally, I point out that many business writers use the passive >> voice to avoid using first-person pronouns--something they were >> taught to do back when the paradigm for businesseses was to maintain >> professional distance from the reader. They will write, for example, >> "Your request has been deinied" or "Your cooperation is appreciated" >> to avoid saying 'We have denied your request" or "We appreciate your >> cooperation." It strikes me that sentences such as these last two >> active voice sentences are more personal (while still being >> professional), while the first two passive > > voice constructions seem more institutional and impersonal. >> >> Ed and Craig, do these points reflect a functional approach to >> language or a group (or personal!) prejudice? >> >> Nancy >> >> >> >> ---- Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> In my business writing and grammar workshops, I strongly suggest >>> avoiding passive voice when a sentence contains all the components >>> of an active sentence. Those are normally the ones ending in a >>> "by" prepositional phrase. Since people in the business world are >>> so darn wordy (they tell me it's a habit from trying to fill those >>> 500-word theme requirements), I offer them the challenge of >>> looking to save 50 cents a word for every unnecessary one they >>> use. >>> >>> So they'd save a dollar by changing the following passive sentence >>> to an active one: >>> >>> Passive: The proposal was proofread by the partner. >>> Active; The partner proofread the proposal. >>> >>> To find such passives, I have them use the Control F ("F" stands >>> for >>> "Find") >>> feature in Microsoft Word to find the word "by." They prefer that >>> to having their grammar checkers simply indicating "Passive" >>> without always offering the active version. >>> >>> By the way, the Control F technique works for finding any words >>> students use too repetitiously. Many struggle with using "that" >>> unnecessarily. >>> Also, >>> one of my pet peeves is expletives, so I have my participants >>> search for > >> "It" and "There" to identify and then eliminate them. >>> >>> I hope these tips help all of you too. >>> >>> Linda >>> >>> Linda Comerford >>> Comerford Consulting >>> 317.786.6404 >>> [log in to unmask] >>> www.comerfordconsulting.com <http://www.comerfordconsulting.com/> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster >>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 2:05 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: past perfect--a final note >>> >>> >>> Craig may well be right about Orwell's sentiments; however, Orwell >>> himself near the end of his essay offers a set of six "rules" (the >>> word is his). >>> His fourth rule is "Never use the passive where you can use the active." >>> He >>> doesn't say "where you can use the active" but not the passive. >>> But he uses passives in four of the first 15 sentences of >>> "Politics," and it's not at all difficult to substitute actives >>> for each them. >>> Hurrah for Craig's "we need a more functional orientation to >>> language so that choice can be built on something more than >>> personal or group prejudice." >>> >>> Ed Schuster >>> >>> >>> ************** >>> It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. >>> (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) To join or >>> leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >>> leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/