You mean you thought it was direct address: God, bless the queen. Do it now. Hurry. Faster. On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Veit, Richard wrote: > And all these years I have been incorrectly assuming "God bless the > queen" was imperative. I learn a lot from this list. > > Dick > > ________________________________ > > Richard Veit > Department of English > University of North Carolina Wilmington > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 3:14 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Subjunctive > > At the risk of perpetuating the pointless dispute, I should note > that I > agree with you about the counterfactual "were" not deserving the > name of > > a subjunctive. > > However, I do think it is justified in the so-called present > subjunctive, although I would drop the "present" and refocus the > term a > bit. It's not an inflectionally distinct form, as you correctly note, > but it is a syntactically distinct one. > > Clauses like > > (I demand) that the prisoner be released. > > or > > God bless the Queen. > > have a different syntactic pattern from those of other clauses that > use > the base form of the verb (imperatives or infinitives), that clause > form > > deserves a distinct label, and "subjunctive" is as good a term for > it as > > any. > > So for me, the term "subjunctive" is useful for English as long as we > keep in mind that it does not mean exactly the same thing for > English as > > it does for Latin. > > Karl > > STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote: >> "Subjunctive" is one of those terms that causes endless confusion > among >> students of grammar and pointless dispute among grammarians. In most >> languages the term is used to identify an inflectional category of >> the >> verb, as in the Latin "porto" (I carry) >> >> Indicative Subjunctive >> 1s porto portem >> 2s portas portes >> 3s portat portet >> 1p portamus portemus >> 2p portatis portetis >> 3p portant portent >> >> a category of forms used in unfulfilled conditions, counterfactuals, > and >> other irrealis constructions. >> >> The forms sometimes called "subjunctive" in English, namely, bare > forms >> and "were," are indistinguishable morphologically from infinitives, >> imperatives, and non-third-person present forms in the former case >> and >> the past plural of "be" in the latter. So we don't have a form of >> the >> verb that can be identified as subjunctive. We have constructions > that >> are used where Old English other languages use subjunctive >> inflection, >> but these are syntactic structures, not morphological contrasts. >> >> "If it were raining" is counterfactual, as is "Were it raining." >> >> "I demand that the prisoners be released" has a tenseless, irrealis >> clause, a clause describing something that has not happened. >> >> Constructions like these have a modal quality of unreality, or > irrealis, >> in grammatical terms, but to call them subjunctive is to preserve a >> label for a form the language has long since lost. >> >> Old English didn't even have much of a subjunctive. Unlike the > present >> indicative paradigm, which has separate forms for 1/2/3 sg., the >> subjunctive paradigm uses the 1s indicative form for all persons in > the >> singular and adds the preterite plural suffix -n for all persons in > the >> plural. See the paradigms for "ridan" (to ride). I've left out >> vowel >> length marking for both Latin and Old English. >> >> Indicative Subjunctive >> 1s ride ride >> 2s ridest ride >> 3s rideth ride >> 1p ridath riden >> 2p ridath riden >> 3p ridath riden >> >> Modern English has no subjunctive and didn't have much subjunctive to >> lose in the first place. It can, however, use syntactic >> constructions >> to say anything that languages that have a subjunctive can say. >> >> Herb >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen >> Sent: 2008-03-13 18:23 >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Subjunctive >> >> The subjunctive has been disappearing from our language for a very > long >> time. Grammarians have complained that its use has been declining at >> least as far back as Priestly in the 18th century. >> >> I doubt there's really been much of a change in at least the last 100 >> years. It's rare in speech, but still maintained in more formal > writing. >> >> This really isn't an issue of active language change as much as it is > of >> >> different registers, each of which has remained fairly stable for a > long >> >> time. >> >> It's also worth noting that the so-called present subjunctive is >> alive > >> and well in mandative contexts (e.g., "The teacher required that her >> students be polite"). >> >> Karl >> >> Veit, Richard wrote: >>> That fact that half of a group of educated speakers did not use the >>> subjunctive to describe a hypothetical situation is more evidence >>> suggesting that the subjunctive is disappearing from our language. >>> >>> Dick Veit >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> Richard Veit >>> Department of English >>> University of North Carolina Wilmington >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Di Desidero >>> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:36 AM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: Subjunctive >>> >>> At a recent (large) faculty meeting, one of the administrators ran a >>> 'warm-up' activity. The idea was for faculty members to stand up, >>> introduce themselves, and talk about what they would be doing on a >>> Saturday morning if they were not attending this meeting. >>> >>> I kept track: At least half of the speakers said "If I was not here" >>> while almost half said "If I were not here." I was surprised, given >>> that this was an educated group of people and the speaking occasion >> was >>> not all that informal. >>> >>> Oh, the things we find to interest ourselves! >>> >>> Linda >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. >>> >>> Associate Professor >>> >>> Assistant Academic Director of Writing >>> >>> Communication, Arts, and Humanities >>> >>> University of Maryland University College >>> >>> 3501 University Boulevard East >>> >>> Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 >>> >>> >>> >>> (240) 582-2830 >>> >>> (240) 582-2993 (fax) >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:47 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: Subjunctive >>> >>> Well, it does, of course (she should have said "If Obama were a >>> white >>> man") but the subjunctive has been disappearing from English for >>> centuries now. I think it has become pretty rare in speech. (I >>> take it that this was an interview quotation?) >>> >>> Kathleen Ward >>> UC Davis >>> >>> >>> On Mar 12, 2008, at 9:30 AM, DD Farms wrote: >>> >>>> DD: Am I a bit confused? Consider the quote from Geraldine Ferraro, >>>> [NYT 12 Mar 08, Maureen Dowd.] "If Obama was a white man, he would >> not >>>> be in this position. And if he was a woman (of any color), he would >>>> not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he > is. >> >>>> And the country is caught up in the concept." I thought High >> Standard >>>> English required the use of the subjunctive in stating a condition >>>> contrary to fact. >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/