Linda,
I like your distinction between the gerund and the infinitive as
event-related and existing on the realis scale. That certainly bears
out in the distribution of gerunds and infinitives as verb complements,
gerunds generally being factive and having truth value, infinitives
non-factive and not having truth value. So we tend to use gerunds after
emotive and sensory verbs as in
The children enjoyed playing/*to play Chutes and Ladders. (They
actually played it.)
The children wanted *playing/to play Chutes and Ladders. (We don't know
if they played it.)
The police directed the crowd to disperse. (We don't know if they did
disperse.)
The police directed the dispersing of the crowd. (They did disperse-or
were dispersed.)
However, reference is a little messier, and perhaps indexing was the
wrong term. "It," "this." and "that" can all refer not simply to
nominal anaphors but to events, to concepts, to discourse propositions,
or to pragmatic properties like the order of elements in a sentence.
This has been a problem for syntacticians for a long time and is part of
what stimulated the short-lived Generative Semantics movement of the
early 70s. Ultimately, the semantics of reference can be handled only
within the framework of discourse pragmatics, not just syntax, although
there are clear syntactic conditions governing some referential
phenomena.
As to "best reading," I don't know what that is. Best reading also
depends heavily on discourse context, a Craig pointed out in his
response critiquing the drill question itself. If there is more than
one reading, depending on context, then a sentence in isolation arguably
cannot have a best reading. That depends on the context you construct
for it. But I'll hedge on this statement when I look at your sentence
"Miriam likes listening to singing, but she is not good at it." Singing
is one of those skills we evaluate readily. We all know that listening
is also and that listening can be trained, but most people don't regard
listening as a skill, rather as simple sense perception. So I suspect
most speakers would apply the evaluative clause to "singing" rather than
to "listening."
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Di Desidero
Sent: 2008-03-18 10:03
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive
Hi, Herb. I always enjoy your in-depth explanations--but do allow me to
play devil's advocate for just a bit in a very simple way now. And maybe
you can straighten me out here when you've got time (if you've got
time). Two points/questions:
1. You said: " I'm not sure that this is a processing issue. You're
talking here about reference and about how pronouns are indexed. It is
certainly the case that we can't use a to-infinitive as object of a
preposition, one of the arguments for not calling all infinitives noun
phrases.The form that the VP will take in a particular environment tends
to be tightly governed grammatically, so the more noun-like gerund will
show up after the preposition."
Can we not make the argument that the mental/cognitive association of
nouns with pronouns (in processing) is exactly tied to the way in which
we understand the grammar? I mean, isn't the basis of indexing
semantic, and thus can be seen as cognitive? And that perhaps the more
noun-like gerund shows up after the preposition in this case because of
the way in which we understand the sentence from a processing
perspective? That is, we can easily interpret A , but we need to
re-process B in order to understand it.
And could there be an event-related element here too? I mean, the gerund
seems to refer to an action in process, so it is more natural to think
about being good at an action in process. The infinitive expresses an
event that is somehow more of an abstraction to me: She likes to sing
when she does it
A: Miriam likes singing, but she is not good at it.
Miriam likes singing, but she is not good at singing.
B: Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at it.
*Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at to sing.
Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at singing.
2. You wrote: " There are other differences between the sentences as
well. In A it isn't necessary that Miriam do the singing. She likes
listening to it but isn't good at singing herself. B doesn't allow that
interpretation. Miriam has to be interpreted as subject of "to sing."
In A she's not necessarily in the church choir I direct. In B she is,
unfortunately. The "it" can refer to either of these meanings."
The best reading that I get for A is when Miriam does the singing
herself (the same interpretation as B). If I interpret A as "Miriam
likes listening to singing, but she is not good at it" I have to
reprocess and think: Is it listening or singing that she is not good
at?
Linda
-----------------------------------------------------
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Assistant Academic Director of Writing
Communication, Arts, and Humanities
University of Maryland University College
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD 20783-8083
(240) 582-2830
(240) 582-2993 (fax)
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive
Linda,
I'm not sure that this is a processing issue. You're talking here about
reference and about how pronouns are indexed. It is certainly the case
that we can't use a to-infinitive as object of a preposition, one of the
arguments for not calling all infinitives noun phrases. The form that
the VP will take in a particular environment tends to be tightly
governed grammatically, so the more noun-like gerund will show up after
the preposition. There are other differences between the sentences as
well. In A it isn't necessary that Miriam do the singing. She likes
listening to it but isn't good at singing herself. B doesn't allow that
interpretation. Miriam has to be interpreted as subject of "to sing."
In A she's not necessarily in the church choir I direct. In B she is,
unfortunately. The "it" can refer to either of these meanings.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Di Desidero
Sent: 2008-03-17 12:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive
I think that the simple explanation for the preference of A over B lies
in the way in which hearers process the sentences. It is much easier to
substitute "singing" for "it" in A, but not in B.
A: Miriam likes singing, but she is not good at it.
Miriam likes singing, but she is not good at singing.
B: Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at it.
*Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at to sing.
Linda
-----------------------------------------------------
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Assistant Academic Director of Writing
Communication, Arts, and Humanities
University of Maryland University College
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD 20783-8083
(240) 582-2830
(240) 582-2993 (fax)
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive
Nancy,
I like the fact that you treat verbness as a matter of degree, as, I
assume, you would also treat nouns. And you're right that a gerund is
more nouny than an infinitive. A lot of syntacticians would not even
treat the infinitive in "likes to sing" as a noun phrase, simply as a
tenseless VP serving as complement to "likes." The drill question,
however, like so many drill questions, oversimplifies matters.
Reference doesn't have to be simply to a noun; it can be to a clause or
even to a contextual factor. Consider a sentence like
Finish a direct quotation with a period and quotation marks, in that
order.
The referent of "that" is clearly the order in which the two marks of
punctuation are given, something that is not only not a noun phrase but
is arguably not even a grammatical structure. It is, rather, an ordered
pair, and it's the order that counts. In the second sentence in the
drill, the referent of "that" is activity of singing, not a particular
word or grammatical structure. It might actually be possible to come up
with situations where one referent would make better sense than the
other.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
Sent: 2008-03-16 23:13
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: gerund vs infinitive
OK, why is it that I see my mistakes right after I hit send?
Of course, both the infinitive and the gerund follow the verb "likes,"
not a preposition. I have already sent a correction to Diane on that
point, but the question still remains: is one a better referent than the
other, and, if so, why?
Thanks,
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
803-786-3706
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: gerund vs infinitive
Dear listers,
I received an inquiry from someone today and would like to know how you
would have responded to it had it been sent to you. The original post is
at the bottom, and my response is above it.
Thanks for your feedback-I always learn a great deal from you.
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
803-786-3706
________________________________
From: Tuten, Nancy [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 7:11 PM
To: diane skinner
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: gerund vs infinitive?
Diane,
You raise a very interesting question.
I suspect that the test writers regard the gerund as a clearer referent
because you can replace "it" with the gerund and the sentence makes
sense. We can say "She is not good at singing," but we cannot say "she
is not good at to sing."
Nonetheless, as you point out, both the gerund and the infinitive are
functioning as nominals (objects of the preposition "like"). One might,
therefore, logically conclude that either would qualify as a clear
referent for a pronoun. Perhaps infinitives, although they can function
as nominals, retain more of their "verb-ness" than gerunds, which quite
strongly take on the quality of a thing or an act-something one could
place a determiner in front of: "her singing," "the singing," etc. but
not "her to sing," "the to sing."
Thank you for attending our session at the STD conference.
Best,
Nancy
Nancy Lewis Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing Program for the
Pearce Communication Center
Columbia College
1301 Columbia College Drive
Columbia, South Carolina 29203
USA
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: diane skinner [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 3:12 PM
To: Tuten, Nancy
Subject: gerund vs infinitive?
Dear Professor Tuten,
I met you at the Sigma Tau Delta Conference in your Grammar Panel.
I have a question for you.
In my writing center, during grammar drills, a computer-generated
question asked,
"Which is the clearest referent for the pronoun in the following
sentences?"
A: Miriam likes singing, but she is not good at it.
B: Miriam likes to sing, but she is not good at it.
The answer was A, but no explanation was given.
Could you please clarify this answer since the verbs can be followed
by either an infinitive or a gerund, and there will be virtually no
difference in the meaning of the two sentences.
Does the infinitive "to sing" act as an object for the verb "likes,"
or does it act as a verb to the linking verb "likes"?
How can a distinction be made between a gerund being nominative and an
infinitive being nominative?
Is this a special case because of the word "likes"?
When you have the time, I would sincerely appreciate a response.
Thank you.
Diane Skinner
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