Here's an example of a non-restrictive with "that" that I find at least marginally acceptable: The situation in Iraqi Ministry of Justice, that I was telling you about last week, has gotten worse over the past two days. It seems to work better with more complex noun phrases like this one than with simple head nouns. ??The situation, that I was telling you about last week, has gotten worse over the past two days. I don't have a strong sense that the former sentence would be better with "which" for "that." Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: 2008-03-09 23:17 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: That/Which Rule post from WPA The that/restrictive vs. which/nonrestrictive contrast is found pretty widely, although non-restrictives in "that" do occur but are, as Huddleston and Pullum note, marginal. As Baron suggests, Fowler did contribute to the modern formal usage of "that" and "which," but he didn't particularly simplify an inherently messy situation. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martha Kolln Sent: 2008-03-09 18:32 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: That/Which Rule post from WPA Carol, I like Francis Christensen's explanation of the difference between restrictive and nonrestrictive modifiers in his Notes Toward a New Rhetoric. He uses the terms "defining" and "commenting." And the lack of commas (with the that-clause) means that the clause is defining--that is, pointing out a particular lawnmower. He also says this: A restrictive modifier makes one statement and implies its opposite. In the case of your sentence (a): The opposite, implied, statement is this: "The lawnmower that is not broken is not in the garage." That is to say, the reader of (a) has the right to infer that meaning. If that meaning is not accurate--if, in fact, there is only one lawnmower--then the commas are called for. And that means we need the which-clause. (That-clauses are never set off by commas.) Here's the restrictive/nonrestrictive lesson I use; it involves a simple appositive, not an adjectival clause, but the principle is the same. I put two sentences on the board: My husband, John, is a farmer. My son John is a student. Then I ask the class what I have just told them about the size of my family. The answer is that I have more than one son. In other words, I have a son not-John who is not a student. I usually add another comment to emphasize the message: "If I were to tell my office partner, 'My husband is sick today,' what would be his response?" The class usually comes up with "Sorry to hear it" or "I hope he's not contagious" or some other remark. Then I ask what my friend's response would be to this statement: "My son is sick today." Of course, his response would be "Which one?" In other words, the noun phrase "my husband" has only one possible referent; the referent of "my son" has not been defined. In the case of the that/which topic, it's safe to say that "that clauses are never set off by commas"; which clauses, however, go both ways; a which-clause without commas is equivalent to a that-clause. I prefer to make the distinction, keeping which for non-restrictive (commenting) modifiers. But that preference is far from universal. Modern prose uses which-clauses both ways. Martha I'm not familiar with Fowler, but Strunk & White say: "that is the defining, or restrictive pronoun, which the nondefining, or nonrestrictive" (87). They give the following examples: a) The lawn mower that is broken is in the garage. vs. b) The lawn mower, which is broken, is in the garage. Frankly, I don't see the difference. If we are wondering which lawn mower is in question (ie. there are several lawn mowers in the garage and only one is broken), one might ask, "which one is broken?" And the owner of the lawn mowers might say "that one is broken," or, "the one which is broken is there." I don't really see the difference. Maybe someone can explain. Carol Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Hi, all Here's a post that came through the WPA listserv on the origin of 'that/which' THAT I thought you might like. Linda ----------------------------------------------------- There's a new post on the Web of Language -- Happy Birthday, Henry Fowler: inventor of that/which rule is 150 on Monday, March 10 March 10, 2008, is the 150th birthday of Henry Watson Fowler, high school Latin teacher, lexicographer, and author of the Dictionary of Modern English Usage (1926), the most important book on English usage of the 20th century (sorry Strunk and White, you lose hands down). So here's my e-card to the man who single-handedly invented the difference between that and which and convinced thousands of copy editors that Druids had carved it on an ancient pillar at Stonehenge.... (picture here -- you have to go onlline to see it) Actually, Fowler never hid the fact that he wasn't given the that/ which rule on Mt. Sinai. Quite the opposite: he insisted that "the relations between that, who, & which have come to us from our forefathers as an odd jumble, & plainly show that the language has not been neatly constructed by a master-builder" (Modern English Usage, 1926, that, s.v.; I'm not going to recount Fowler's rule here, because it's too complicated, requiring a discussion of restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses that's not particularly entertaining). So Fowler decided to improve this jumble because, as he put it, "the temptation to show how better use might have been made of the material to hand is sometimes irresistible.".... Read the rest at the Web of Language DB Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. Associate Professor Assistant Academic Director of Writing University of Maryland University College 3501 University Boulevard, East Adelphi, MD 20783 ________________________________ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! 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