Scott: I agree that universities probably won't try very hard to institute the equivalent of an "exit test," especially one on writing skills -- but it doesn't all have to do with perceptions of competitiveness. Part of the problem is that honestly evaluating writing is *work*-intensive -- it's not the kind of thing that's easily reduced to machine scoring, no matter what some corporations say. So, you have to pay people to score the tests, and if you're talking about testing on a national scale, that means a major expenditure. Another problem, of course, is that good writing is -- to some extent -- good relative to its genre/audience. What counts as excellent psychology-article text doesn't count as good literary-criticism text, and vice versa. I suspect it's hard for a psychologist to look at abstracts in PMLA without having to surpress the urge to burst out laughing, or a literary critic to look at an APA-style abstract without marveling at all the begged questions. You don't just need to employ actual people to score the test, you have to employ people *in the subject area* to score the test. To mangle some French, quel expensive! Some standardized tests, like the GMAT, do include at least a strong attempt to measure writing (or at least, the GMAT did last time I checked). That's subject-specific, though. Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 12:38 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Subjunctive; education vs. literacy; lonnnggg rant; was RE: ATEG Digest - 12 Mar 2008 to 13 Mar 2008 (#2008-64) One problem that we seem to be ignoring is the distinction between literate and educated. Some of the least literate individuals that I have encountered have been fellow professors; oddly enough, the teachers of my acquaintance have, on the whole, been more literate than the professors. No teachers could increase their value as teachers by writing a dissertation on the placement of trash cans in girls restrooms in public high schools. Too often, education is becoming the process of acquiring certificates of attendance--even though attendance may be seldom or never taken. It would be nice if colleges and universities could have the equivalent of GEDs so that knowledge and writing skills could be objectively tested. A pipe dream, I am certain because the Halls of Acaenemia are unlikely to consent to having their students undergo such a traumatic experience. I know of only one university that requires the GRE as a prerequisite to graduation. Such a process allows for the evaluation of the individual, departmental, college, and university even if the score does not impact graduation. Both my father and my mother's father lacked high school diplomas but ranked among the most literate of my acquaintance. Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 12:01 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 12 Mar 2008 to 13 Mar 2008 (#2008-64) There are 6 messages totalling 778 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Subjunctive (5) 2. ATEG Digest - 11 Mar 2008 to 12 Mar 2008 (#2008-63) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:36:08 -0400 From: Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Subjunctive At a recent (large) faculty meeting, one of the administrators ran a 'warm-up' activity. The idea was for faculty members to stand up, introduce themselves, and talk about what they would be doing on a Saturday morning if they were not attending this meeting. I kept track: At least half of the speakers said "If I was not here" while almost half said "If I were not here." I was surprised, given that this was an educated group of people and the speaking occasion was not all that informal. Oh, the things we find to interest ourselves! Linda =20 ----------------------------------------------------- Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. Associate Professor Assistant Academic Director of Writing Communication, Arts, and Humanities University of Maryland University College=20 3501 University Boulevard East Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 ********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/