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From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'" <[log in to unmask]>
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:37:38 -0400
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In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Note the verbal equivalents:
[T]hey insisted that the Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian
Kings. [sic, kings should not be capitalized in this context]
[T]hey insisted on the Greek colonies of Lydia's recognizing the Persian
Kings. [I abhor such phrasal possessives]
[T]hey ordered the Greek colonies of Lydia to recognize the Persian Kings
Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
There are 9 messages totalling 3128 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Odd sentence (4)
2. Clauses vs. phrases (3)
3. Grammar Texts
4. Than vs. other than
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:16:26 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
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Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
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interface at:
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>The following =
would
seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a nonfinite verb =
is
never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'> &n=
bsp; Were
she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>_________________=
_______________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Richard =
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Department of =
English<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dteal
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>University</span>=
</font></st1:PlaceType><font
color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:teal'> =
of <st1:PlaceName
w:st=3D"on">North Carolina</st1:PlaceName> <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Wilmington</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I think an argument for that the subjunctive with =
"suggest"
is a finite<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. =
Nonfinite
clauses<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or =
genitive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I encouraged her to leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William =
C<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were =
president"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and =
this looks
like a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's =
actually<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of =
subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that =
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of
"inversion"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in =
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can =
opt
for the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>hyperformal "Were I president..." variant. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I can't think of anything similar one can do with the =
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing =
to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause =
is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, =
somehow --
it<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is =
impossible,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just =
such a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>thing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, =
Janet<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Hi<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause =
that
begins<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I =
think
it is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>When they reached the coast of <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Asia
Minor</st1:place>, they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Greek colonies of <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Lydia</st1:place></st1:country-region>
recognize the Persian Kings as their over- =
Lords<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on"><font
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<st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B1D.D11E5D22--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:20:27 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Dick,
=20
But isn't "she" subject of "were" here, with SVI? While this is a
conditional use of "were," the structure is analogous to "She was to
leave."
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-04-10 11:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But isn’t “she” subject of =
“were” here, with SVI? While this is
a conditional use of “were,” the structure is analogous to =
“She was to leave.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Veit,
Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-04-10 11:16<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>The
following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a
nonfinite verb is never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'> &nbs=
p;
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>___________________=
_____________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>Richard
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>Department
of English<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>University
of North Carolina Wilmington<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I think an argument for that the subjunctive =
with
"suggest" is a finite<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>clause is that it takes a nominative subject
pronoun. Nonfinite clauses<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>take objective case or, with -ing forms, =
objective or
genitive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I encouraged her to leave =
earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Herb<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of =
Spruiell,
William C<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the =
"If I
were president"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>type, and the "I suggested she be =
hired" type,
and this looks like a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal =
that-clause.
That's actually<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>dodging your question a bit, though. For the =
first type
of subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the =
fact
that the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and =
that kind
of "inversion"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>is characteristic of finite forms (but =
auxiliaries, in
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>examples). Instead of "If I were =
president..."
one can opt for the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>hyperformal "Were I president..." =
variant. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I can't think of anything similar one can do =
with the
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless =
you're
willing to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal
that-clause is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit
circular, somehow -- it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>rests on the assumption that a non-finite =
that-clause is
impossible,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>when someone could simply argue that this is an =
example
of just such a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>thing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Castilleja, Janet<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>What do you folks make of this sentence? =
Is the
clause that begins<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or
non-finite? I think it is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>When they reached the coast of Asia =
Minor,
they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian =
Kings as
their over- Lords<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Heritage University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit the
list's web<o:p></o:p></p>
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http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>and select "Join or leave the =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Visit ATEG's web site at =
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B1E.6C6D5537--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:41:10 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Herb,
=20
Right you are. "She" is clearly the subject of "were" in "Were she
wise,..." and "If she were to leave,..." Presumably the underlying form
of "Were she to leave" is approximately "[She were [she leave]]" with
the second "she" deleted and the subject and verb inverted.
=20
Obviously my attempt to sneak that one past you failed.
=20
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:20 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Dick,
=20
But isn't "she" subject of "were" here, with SVI? While this is a
conditional use of "were," the structure is analogous to "She was to
leave."
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2008-04-10 11:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
Herb,
=20
The following would seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor
of a nonfinite verb is never nominative:
=20
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.
=20
Dick
=20
________________________________
=20
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I think an argument for that the subjunctive with "suggest" is a finite
clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. Nonfinite clauses
take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or genitive.
=20
I suggest that she leave earlier.
I encouraged her to leave earlier.
I was surprised at her/him/his leaving early.
=20
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
=20
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
=20
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
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"Join or leave the list"=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Herb,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Right you are. “She” is
clearly the subject of “were” in “Were she =
wise,…”
and “If she were to leave,…” Presumably the underlying =
form
of “Were she to leave” is approximately “[She were =
[she
leave]]” with the second “she” deleted and the subject =
and verb
inverted.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Obviously my attempt to sneak that =
one
past you failed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceT=
ype><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font =
color=3Dteal><span
style=3D'color:teal'>North =
Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-04-10T11:33:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><font
color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0=
:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT =
F<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, April 10, =
2008
11:20 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Odd =
sentence</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dick,<o:p></=
o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>But =
isn’t
“she” subject of “were” here, with SVI? =
While
this is a conditional use of “were,” the structure is =
analogous to
“She was to leave.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-04-10 =
11:16<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Odd =
sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Herb,<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>The following =
would
seem to be an exception to the claim that the actor of a nonfinite verb =
is
never nominative:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'> &n=
bsp;
Were she to leave, everyone would panic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3D"#003366" =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366'>Dick<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>_________________=
_______________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Richard =
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>Department of =
English<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dteal
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:teal'>University</span>=
</font></st1:PlaceType><font
color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:teal'> =
of <st1:PlaceName
w:st=3D"on">North Carolina</st1:PlaceName> <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Wilmington</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:38 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I think an argument for that the subjunctive with =
"suggest"
is a finite<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>clause is that it takes a nominative subject pronoun. =
Nonfinite
clauses<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>take objective case or, with -ing forms, objective or =
genitive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I suggest that she leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I encouraged her to leave earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I was surprised at her/him/his leaving =
early.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William =
C<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: 2008-04-09 18:56<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Re: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were
president"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and =
this looks
like a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's =
actually<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of =
subjunctive,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that =
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of
"inversion"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in =
non-subjunctive<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can =
opt
for the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>hyperformal "Were I president..." variant. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I can't think of anything similar one can do with the =
suggest-type<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing =
to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause =
is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, =
somehow --
it<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is =
impossible,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just =
such a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>thing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, =
Janet<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 =
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Odd sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Hi<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause =
that
begins<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I =
think
it is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>When they reached the coast of <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Asia
Minor</st1:place>, they insisted that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Greek colonies of <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Lydia</st1:place></st1:country-region>
recognize the Persian Kings as their over- =
Lords<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>and pay them a stipulated tax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Janet Castilleja<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on"><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Heritage</span></font></st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt'>interface at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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style=3D'font-size:
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C89B21.45E265EC--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:00:16 -0400
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Clauses vs. phrases
Janet,
I think that your explanation of participle and infinite phrases as
non-finite clauses is clear, and I know that perhaps the majority of
linguists on our list agree with you. And, yes, because those verb
phrases are reduced clauses, we can call them clauses.
But I prefer to reserve "clause" for the traditional "subject +
predicate." First, the work that I do is mainly for students who are
applying their knowledge of sentence grammar to their own writing or
to the teaching of others. It's very practical to be able to define a
sentence and discuss its possibilities and its punctuation on the
basis of clauses--the subject + predicate kind. And it's very
useful to discuss all the possibilities for expanding sentences with
various kinds of phrases, both verb phrases and others, and various
dependent clauses.
I also have to dissent somewhat from the notion that "Running" in
your example doesn't make the grade as a clause because it has no
other "clause elements." But doesn't the fact that "run" is
intransitive and doesn't need any other elements to be a grammatical
sentence make a difference? The children are running. If your
example had been "Running regularly is good for you" or "Running
fast. . .", would that make a difference? And in your example "To
know him is to love him," isn't "to know him" also a non-finite
clause? So you would analyze that as three clauses, right?
For purposes of pedagogy--the kind of teaching that I think should be
going on in language arts classes of middle school and high school--I
think structural grammar is the logical choice.
Martha
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:21:54 -0700
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
I do think that 'To know him is to love him' consists of three clauses =
together, two nonfinite and the complete clause finite. In my other =
example, it would make a difference to my analysis if it were 'running =
regularly is good for you ' rather than 'running is good for you.' I =
would call the first a reduced clause. I analyze it in a way that =
participle phrases still exist, but I guess I could call them all =
clauses if the possibility of other clause elements is there.
=20
I actually only use the reduced clause explanation with my upper =
division students who are studying to be ESL or bilingual ed teachers. I =
do this so I can show them how independent clauses can be combined and =
where the elements of those embedded clauses come from. I also do it =
because it usually seems reasonably transparent to me. For number of =
years, we have taught a Quirk et al. based grammar in this class. =
However, I may have to change that. The students have to take a =
professional certification test that seems to expect them to know quite =
a bit of grammar, but much of it is discussed in a more traditional way, =
so now I find myself saying things like this: " But you might find this =
referred to as a participle phrase on the test or in the text books your =
district uses" and things like that. It's probably more confusing to =
try to get them to learn more than one name for structure.
=20
In my composition course, I stick to more traditional names for =
structures and use them to discuss linguistic possibilities. At my =
school, we use sentence combining in the developmental composition =
classes. I think students are more comfortable if they have a name for =
a structure, but I think a lot of grammar terminology just overwhelms =
them.
=20
Janet
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Martha =
Kolln
Sent: Thu 4/10/2008 9:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Clauses vs. phrases
Janet,
I think that your explanation of participle and infinite phrases as
non-finite clauses is clear, and I know that perhaps the majority of
linguists on our list agree with you. And, yes, because those verb
phrases are reduced clauses, we can call them clauses.
But I prefer to reserve "clause" for the traditional "subject +
predicate." First, the work that I do is mainly for students who are
applying their knowledge of sentence grammar to their own writing or
to the teaching of others. It's very practical to be able to define a
sentence and discuss its possibilities and its punctuation on the
basis of clauses--the subject + predicate kind. And it's very
useful to discuss all the possibilities for expanding sentences with
various kinds of phrases, both verb phrases and others, and various
dependent clauses.
I also have to dissent somewhat from the notion that "Running" in
your example doesn't make the grade as a clause because it has no
other "clause elements." But doesn't the fact that "run" is
intransitive and doesn't need any other elements to be a grammatical
sentence make a difference? The children are running. If your
example had been "Running regularly is good for you" or "Running
fast. . .", would that make a difference? And in your example "To
know him is to love him," isn't "to know him" also a non-finite
clause? So you would analyze that as three clauses, right?
For purposes of pedagogy--the kind of teaching that I think should be
going on in language arts classes of middle school and high school--I
think structural grammar is the logical choice.
Martha
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:24:42 -0400
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Grammar Texts
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I am thinking that it might be useful to some on this list to see a
list of texts that could be used in a credit grammar course. So I
thought I would get the list going with the texts I'm familiar with
and then ask others to add to the list. Please understand that I am
not necessarily recommending all of these, but I thought people might
find it useful to see what their options are. So here's a list of the
grammar texts I find on my shelf today:
Biber, Douglas, Susan Conrad, and Geoffrey Leech. Longman Student
Grammar of Spoken and Written English. Longman.
Greenbaum, Sidney. Oxford English Grammar. Oxford UP.
Greenbaum, Sidney, and Randolph Quirk. A Student's Grammar of the
English Language. Longman.
Hancock, Craig. Meaning-Centered Grammar: An Introductory Text.
Equinox.
Huddleston, Rodney, and Geoffrey K. Pullum. The Cambridge Grammar of
the English Language. Cambridge UP.
Kaplan, Jeffrey. English Grammar: Principles and Facts. Prentice Hall.
Klammer, Thomas P., Muriel R. Schulz, and Angela della Volpe.
Analyzing English Grammar. Pearson.
Kolln, Martha, and Robert Funk. Understanding English Grammar. Pearson.
Morenberg, Max. Doing Grammar. Oxford UP.
What have I overlooked?
Peter Adams
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webki=
t-line-break: after-white-space; ">I am thinking that it might be useful
to=20=
some on this list to see a list of texts that could be used in a credit
gram=
mar course. So I thought I would get the list going with the texts
I'm=
familiar with and then ask others to add to the list. Please
understa=
nd that I am not necessarily recommending all of these, but I thought
people=
might find it useful to see what their options are. So here's a
list=20=
of the grammar texts I find on my shelf
today:<div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>Biber, Douglas, Susan Conrad, and Geoffrey Leech. <i>Longman
Stud=
ent Grammar of Spoken and Written English</i>.
Longman.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Greenbaum, Sidney. <i>Oxford English Grammar</i>.
Oxf=
ord UP.</div><div><br></div><div>Greenbaum, Sidney, and Randolph Quirk.
&nbs=
p;<i>A Student's Grammar of the English Language</i>.
Longman.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Hancock, Craig. <i>Meaning-Centered Grammar: An
Intr=
oductory Text</i>. Equinox.</div><div><br></div><div>Huddleston,
Rodne=
y, and Geoffrey K. Pullum. <i>The Cambridge Grammar of the English
Lang=
uage</i>. Cambridge UP.</div><div><br></div><div>Kaplan, Jeffrey.
&nbs=
p;<i>English Grammar: Principles and Facts</i>. Prentice
Hall.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Klammer, Thomas P., Muriel R. Schulz, and Angela della
Vol=
pe. <i>Analyzing English Grammar</i>.
Pearson.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Kolln, Martha, and Robert Funk. <i>Understanding English
Gramm=
ar</i>. Pearson.</div><div><br></div><div>Morenberg, Max. <i>Doing
Gra=
mmar</i>. Oxford
UP.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
What have I overlooked?</div><div><br></div><div>Peter
Adams</div></body></h=
tml>=3D
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<p>
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--Apple-Mail-10--232467559--
------------------------------
I consider a phrase to be a group of words functioning as a single part of
speech but lacking a subject and finite verb. That definition avoids
"exocentric constituents.
A clause contains a subject and a finite verb.
I met English professors at a regional MLA meeting some decades back and
discovered that we used almost identical definitions with a slight variation
in terminology. I reckon that the Commonwealth might have gone its own way.
I still have contacts with professors, students, and teachers from the
Commonwealth; however, we discuss onomastics to the exclusion of grammar.
Scott Catledge
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:10:12 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clauses vs. phrases
Until the early twentieth century, people who wrote grammar books tended
to use terms like "phrase" and "clause" rather unsystematically -- they
were descriptive labels, but not precisely defined ones. The way the
terms are used in U.S. K-12 education is the result of a consensus that
developed among educators on this side of the Atlantic, but it's not a
universal consensus. A good many Commonwealth grammarians (for example,
many in the Systemics approach, but certainly not limited to it), use
"group" for what most Statesiders would call a phrase (basically, any
phrase that all of us would view as endocentric is a "group," but an
arguably-exocentric constituent without a predicate is a "phrase," with
the prepositional phrase being the prime example). Similarly, the
requirement that a clause have a subject and finite verb is part of the
consensus that developed here, but not elsewhere.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:21:10 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Than vs. other than
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=20
Someone asked me today whether one should use "I" or "me" after "other
than." Now, I know the standard answer for when you have just "than" -
fill in the words that you think are elided to get the right pronoun:
=20
John gave Mary more books than I [gave Mary].
John gave Mary more books than [he gave] me.
=20
But...I can't make ellipsis work with "other than":
=20
*Don't talk to anyone other than [you talk to] me.
=20
If I used "but" instead of "other than," I'd class that "but" as a
preposition - it seems to be introducing a noun phrase, not a clause
with elliptical bits -- so that's the route I went with "other than."
Does that seem reasonable? Garner's dictionary of usage had nothing on
that particular point.
=20
Thanks in advance -=20
=20
Bill Spruiell
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<p class=3DMsoNormal>Someone asked me today whether one should use =
“I”
or “me” after “other than.” Now, I know the =
standard
answer for when you have just “than” – fill in the =
words that
you think are elided to get the right pronoun:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; John
gave Mary more books than I [gave Mary].<o:p></o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; John
gave Mary more books than [he gave] me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>But…I can’t make ellipsis work with =
“other
than”:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; *Don’t
talk to anyone other than [you talk to] me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>If I used “but” instead of “other =
than,”
I’d class that “but” as a preposition – it seems =
to be
introducing a noun phrase, not a clause with elliptical bits -- so =
that’s
the route I went with “other than.” Does that seem
reasonable? Garner’s dictionary of usage had nothing on that =
particular
point.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks in advance – <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:00:36 -0700
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
Well, I should have looked this up is Quirk et al. in the first place
and saved everybody the trouble. They quite clearly explained that
'insist,' when the meaning is a command, is a verb that frequently
requires a that- clause in the mandative subjunctive form. I usually
treat the subjunctive as finite, although I don't know that it is,
quite.
Thanks to all!
Janet=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Odd sentence
I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president"
type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a
version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually
dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive,
one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the
subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion"
is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive
examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the
hyperformal "Were I president..." variant.=20
I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type
subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to
accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is
sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it
rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible,
when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a
thing.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Odd sentence
Hi
=20
What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins
'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is
non-finite, but I'm wavering a little.=20
=20
=20
When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the
Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords
and pay them a stipulated tax.
=20
Thanks
=20
Janet Castilleja
Heritage University
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 9 Apr 2008 to 10 Apr 2008 (#2008-87)
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