Well, I should have looked this up is Quirk et al. in the first place and saved everybody the trouble. They quite clearly explained that 'insist,' when the meaning is a command, is a verb that frequently requires a that- clause in the mandative subjunctive form. I usually treat the subjunctive as finite, although I don't know that it is, quite. Thanks to all! Janet -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:56 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Odd sentence I'd treat that as a subjunctive -- there's the "If I were president" type, and the "I suggested she be hired" type, and this looks like a version of the latter, albeit in a nominal that-clause. That's actually dodging your question a bit, though. For the first type of subjunctive, one can argue for finiteness on the basis of the fact that the subjunctive form can occur before the verb, and that kind of "inversion" is characteristic of finite forms (but auxiliaries, in non-subjunctive examples). Instead of "If I were president..." one can opt for the hyperformal "Were I president..." variant. I can't think of anything similar one can do with the suggest-type subjunctive that would prove it's finite, unless you're willing to accept the claim that its presence in a nominal that-clause is sufficient proof of finiteness. That feels a bit circular, somehow -- it rests on the assumption that a non-finite that-clause is impossible, when someone could simply argue that this is an example of just such a thing. Bill Spruiell -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:49 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Odd sentence Hi What do you folks make of this sentence? Is the clause that begins 'that the Greek colonies..." finite or non-finite? I think it is non-finite, but I'm wavering a little. When they reached the coast of Asia Minor, they insisted that the Greek colonies of Lydia recognize the Persian Kings as their over- Lords and pay them a stipulated tax. Thanks Janet Castilleja Heritage University To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/