Bob, It probably doesn't change your argument at all, but Rei doesn't use tag questions as a test for sentences. He uses them to test for subject. You can put tag questions at the end of structures that traditional grammar wouldn't accept as a sentence, but that would be fine in normal talk. "Nice shot." "Your turn." "Hot enough for you?" "More coffee on table eight." > "Nice shot, wasn't it?" "Your turn, isn't it?" And so on. I think tag questions have a highly pragmatic function, asking for affirmation or confirmation from a listener or reader. As teachers, I think we can and do share a belief that students bring a great deal of automatic, intuitive, or unconscious knowledge that can be put to work in helping them understand what is required of them in the context of more formal writing. I agree; a good deal of what they need is already there. We seem to differ in how to account for it. Craig I am sorry I am coming late to this discussion. I agree with everything > that has been said. My colleague Jim Kenkel and I have been looking at a > collection of essays written by first year native and non-native speaking > college students to understand the non-standard punctuation. ALL of the > essays had sentences that were punctuated according to the standard rules. > Those that were non-standard appeared to be following principles to show > the relationship between various ideas. > > I am very reticent to question Herb, but there are reasons why the concept > of the sentence is more that a "methodological choice." It is a category > that reflects English speakers knowledge of the language. > > Herb writes: > > [The S (for sentence)] represented a unit within which certain > relationships, structures, and constraints could be discussed without > the inconvenience of answering questions about discourse. This usually > got us into an argument about competence and performance, which I held, > and hold, to be a corollary of the methodological choice of S as the > domain of analysis and description. In informal speech, in contrast to > formal lectures, addresses, sermons, etc., sentences tend to correspond > to the breath group, so that the spoken sentence tends to be what one > can say in one breath. > > *** > Note the use of the word "tend." I think Herb gives away too much with > that word. > > Do we need the category of "sentence" (or clause) to describe what people > do with they speak? > > A couple of thought experiences. > > I. Try to describe well-formed tag questions (a structure that almost > exclusively in the oral language) in English without the use of the > category sentence. You know what tag questions are, don't you? Tag > questions are easy to describe, aren't they? > > II. Try to describe well-formed questions (again forms that are very > frequent in the oral language) in English without the use of the category > sentence. Some sentences to consider in your description. > > 1) Is the woman from France? > 2) Does the woman live next door? > 3) Is the woman who lives next door from France? > 4) Does the woman who is from France live next door? > 5) Yesterday, did the woman leave? > > III. Try to describe the antecedents of her and herself in the following > strings without reference to sentence. (I recognize that these sentences > may not be common in the oral language, but they can be easily understood > in the oral language.) > > "herself" has to refer to Mary in the following. > 6) Mary sees herself on television. > 7) Mary wants to see herself on television. > > "her" cannot refer to Mary. > 8) Mary sees her on television. > 9) Mary wants to see her on televison. > > "herself" has to refer to Jane. > 10) Mary wants Jane to see herself on television. (but remember 7) > > "her" can refer to Mary > 11) Mary wants Jane to see her on television. (but remember 9) > > **** > I recognize that I am suggesting the competence-performance distinction is > crucial. By the way, I am not alone in this regard. The > competence-performance distinction is the basis for the suggestions that > De Beaugrande in his "Forward to the basics" paper and Noguchi in his NCTE > book use for their suggestions in how to show students how to determine > whether a string they have written is an appropriate sentence. > > Finally, given what I have written above, I have no idea what the > following means: > > ". . . what a sentence can be depends very much on medium, genre, > discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other things." > > Do the principles of well-formed tag questions, yes-no questions, and the > antecedents of personal pronouns and antecedents change depending on > medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting? > > Obviously, the frequency of the use of various forms change and some forms > are very rare in some kinds of discourse (just like certain lexical > items), but I have no idea how medium, genre, social setting changes the > principles for any grammatical structure in English. > > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/