Morning everyone
I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about such things!
Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you. Indeed two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in Writing and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal, colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that principle elsewhere in W&T. F&S call this sentence, "He, as well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I suspect they'd use the same classification for the S&W sentence. Though without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means simply "and."
I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn Troyka. Maybe we can get some consensus from her.
BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective" a bit prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll get back to you.
Michael
-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
Michael,
You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon consensus.
Dick
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
Dick et al
Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is objectionable" doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that "as well as his manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something akin to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb should be as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well as" are intended indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in most contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and concepts, is contextual and objective.
Michael
-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to “manners” in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut: "His speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
Dick Veit
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with, as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21). So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is". Strunk and White give the following example: "His speech as well as his manner is objectionable" (21).
I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and "as well as" changes that in your sentence though.
--- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I have no trouble with:
Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
And pretty sure about this:
Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals) is educated about HPV.
But what about this one?
Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well as” as equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your informed guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially welcome.
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
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