No apology required Craig. And thanks for welcoming me. BTW, I concur with your observation that "Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me." The "movability" rule mentioned earlier by Peter makes sense to me though I suspect that too would find some troubling cases.
Best, Michael
-------------- Original message from Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
> >Michael,
> My apologies if I made you feel in trouble. It was a thoughtful post,
> and I thought highly enough of it to invite more development.
> Welcome to the talk.
>
> Craig
> Morning everyone
> >
> > I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> > trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about such
> > things!
> >
> > Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you. Indeed two
> > of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in Writing and
> > Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> > colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that principle
> > elsewhere in W&T. F&S call this sentence, "He, as well as his friends,
> > was present" right but awkward. I suspect they'd use the same
> > classification for the S&W sentence. Though without those commas, it
> > strikes me that "as well as" means simply "and."
> >
> > I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn Troyka. Maybe we
> > can get some consensus from her.
> >
> > BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective" a bit prematurely. I'm still
> > working out that theory, but I'll get back to you.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard" :
> > --------------
> >
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> > below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> > “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> > textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> > preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> > consensus.
> >
> > Dick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> > Rare Books
> > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> >
> > Dick et al
> >
> > Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is objectionable"
> > doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that "as well as his
> > manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something akin
> > to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby plural.
> > Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb should be as well. Many
> > subjects succeeded by "as well as" are intended indeed to be singular.
> > The subject/example you provided, in most contexts, emphatically is NOT.
> > Grammar, like language and concepts, is contextual and objective.
> >
> > Michael
> > -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard" :
> > --------------
> > Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> > but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to “manners”
> > in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut: "His
> > speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
> >
> > Dick Veit
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> >
> > According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> > subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> > as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> > So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is". Strunk and
> > White give the following example: "His speech as well as his manner is
> > objectionable" (21).
> > I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and "as well as"
> > changes that in your sentence though.
> >
> > --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard wrote:
> > From: Veit, Richard
> > Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
> > A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> > have no trouble with:
> >
> > Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> > Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> > Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> > educated about HPV.
> >
> > And pretty sure about this:
> >
> > Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> > is educated about HPV.
> >
> > But what about this one?
> >
> > Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> > individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
> >
> > Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> > agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well as” as
> > equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your informed
> > guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> > welcome.
> >
> > Dick
> > ________________________________
> > Richard Veit
> > Department of English
> > University of North Carolina Wilmington
> >
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