So if the "as well as" or "in addition to" or "along with" act as a conjunction, then we do lose sight of the plural subject if we treat it as a preposition! Great point! Thanks, Craig.Geoff Layton
PS to thread originator - you didn't get into trouble! You got into the heart of the matter!> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:18:32 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question> To: [log in to unmask]> > A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both> preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number> of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject> slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I> won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.> Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as> loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.> Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject> slot is beyond me.> > Craig> > > > Hi again everyone,> > > > I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second edition) by> > Maimon, Peritz, and> > Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a word> > group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f a word group beginning> > with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,> > the subject does not become plural" (478).> > Their example: My teacher, as well as other faculty members, opposes> > the new school policy.> >> > --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:> >> > From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books <[log in to unmask]>> > Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question> > To: [log in to unmask]> > Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM> >> >> >> >> > Morning everyone> > > > I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into> > trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about> > such things!> > > > Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you. Indeed> > two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in Writing> > and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,> > colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that principle> > elsewhere in W&T. F&S call this sentence, "He, as> > well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I suspect> > they'd use the same classification for the S&W sentence. Though> > without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means simply> > "and." > > > > I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn Troyka. Maybe> > we can get some consensus from her. > > > > BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective" a bit> > prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll get back to> > you.> > > > Michael> > > > > > -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"> > <[log in to unmask]>: --------------> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Michael,> > > > You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol> > below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying> > “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find> > textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a> > preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon> > consensus.> > > > Dick> > > >> >> >> >> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate> > Rare Books> > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM> > To: [log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question> > > >> > Dick et al> >> > > >> > Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is objectionable"> > doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that "as well as his> > manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something akin> > to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby> > plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb should be> > as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well as" are intended> > indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in most> > contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and concepts,> > is contextual and objective.> >> > > >> > Michael > >> > -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"> > <[log in to unmask]>: --------------> > Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually> > but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to “manners”> > in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut: "His> > speech as well as his manners is objectionable."> > > > Dick Veit> > > >> >> >> >> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar> > [
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:11:55 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Perhaps the Writer's Digest is ready for a revised edition!Geoff Layton
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:24:15 -0700From: [log in to unmask]: Re: a subject-verb-agreement questionTo: [log in to unmask]
This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:
"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement questionTo: [log in to unmask]: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PMA quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
>
> I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
> Maimon, Peritz, and
> Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
> group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f a word
group beginning
> with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
> the subject does not become plural" (478).
> Their example: My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
> the new school policy.
>
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
<[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
> Morning everyone
>
> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
> such things!
>
> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.
Indeed
> two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in
Writing
> and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that
principle
> elsewhere in W&T. F&S call
this sentence, "He, as
> well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I
suspect
> they'd use the same classification for the S&W
sentence. Though
> without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
> "and."
>
> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka. Maybe
> we can get some consensus from her.
>
> BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective"
a bit
> prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
> you.
>
> Michael
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael,
>
> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> consensus.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> Rare Books
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
> Dick et al
>
>
>
> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
> doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
> plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
> as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well
as" are intended
> indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in most
> contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and
concepts,
> is contextual and objective.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to
“manners”
> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut:
"His
> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
>
> Dick Veit
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
>
>
>
> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
> White give the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
> is objectionable" (21).
> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
> changes that in your sentence though.
>
> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>
>
> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> have no trouble with:
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> educated about HPV.
>
> And pretty sure about this:
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> is educated about HPV.
>
> But what about this one?
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
>
> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well
as” as
> equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your
informed
> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> welcome.
>
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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LISTSERV
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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Perhaps the Writer's Digest is ready for a revised edition!<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:24:15 -0700<BR>From: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR><BR>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 background=http://none border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
This is from <U>The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference</U> by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:<BR>
"Do not confuse the prepositions <EM>plus, in addition to, along with, </EM>and <EM>as well as</EM> with the coordinating conjunction <EM>and. And</EM> is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with <EM>plus, in addition to, along with, </EM>or <EM>as well as</EM> have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM<BR><BR><PRE>A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
> &nbsp;
> I have&nbsp;another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
> Maimon, Peritz, and
> Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
> group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f&nbsp; a word
group beginning
> with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
> the subject does not become plural" (478).
> Their example:&nbsp; My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
> the new school policy.
>
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:
>
> From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
> Morning everyone
> &nbsp;
> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> trouble.&nbsp; So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
> such things!
> &nbsp;
> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.&nbsp;
Indeed
> two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster &amp; Steadman, in
Writing
> and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that&nbsp;
principle
> elsewhere in W&amp;T.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;F&amp;S call
this sentence, "He, as
> well as his friends, was present" right but awkward.&nbsp; I
suspect
> they'd use the same classification for the S&amp;W
sentence.&nbsp; Though
> without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
> "and."&nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka.&nbsp; Maybe
> we can get some consensus from her.&nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> BTW, Craig, I&nbsp;offered up&nbsp;"objective"&nbsp;
a bit
> prematurely.&nbsp; I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
> you.
> &nbsp;
> Michael
> &nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;: --------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael,
> &nbsp;
> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> consensus.
> &nbsp;
> Dick
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> Rare Books
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> &nbsp;
>
> Dick et al
>
> &nbsp;
>
> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
> doesn't sound right.&nbsp; In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
> plural.&nbsp;&nbsp;Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
> as well.&nbsp; Many subjects succeeded by&nbsp;"as well
as" are intended
> indeed to be singular.&nbsp; The subject/example you provided, in most
> contexts, emphatically is NOT.&nbsp; Grammar, like language and
concepts,
> is contextual and objective.
>
> &nbsp;
>
> Michael&nbsp;&nbsp;
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;: --------------
> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to
“manners”
> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut:
"His
> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
> &nbsp;
> Dick Veit
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
> White give&nbsp;the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
> is objectionable" (21).
> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
> changes that in your sentence though.
> &nbsp;
> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:
>
> From: Veit, Richard &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>
>
> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> have no trouble with:
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> And pretty sure about this:
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> is educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> But what about this one?
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well
as” as
> equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your
informed
> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> welcome.
> &nbsp;
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
> &nbsp;
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
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> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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> the list"
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>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><br /><hr />Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live™ Messenger. <a href='https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends' target='_new'>Invite friends now!</a></body>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:39:06 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
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And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:
"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM
A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
>
> I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
> Maimon, Peritz, and
> Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
> group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f a word
group beginning
> with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
> the subject does not become plural" (478).
> Their example: My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
> the new school policy.
>
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
<[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
> Morning everyone
>
> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
> such things!
>
> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.
Indeed
> two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in
Writing
> and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that
principle
> elsewhere in W&T. F&S call
this sentence, "He, as
> well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I
suspect
> they'd use the same classification for the S&W
sentence. Though
> without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
> "and."
>
> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka. Maybe
> we can get some consensus from her.
>
> BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective"
a bit
> prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
> you.
>
> Michael
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael,
>
> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> consensus.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> Rare Books
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
> Dick et al
>
>
>
> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
> doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
> plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
> as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well
as" are intended
> indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in most
> contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and
concepts,
> is contextual and objective.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to
“manners”
> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut:
"His
> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
>
> Dick Veit
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
>
>
>
> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
> White give the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
> is objectionable" (21).
> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
> changes that in your sentence though.
>
> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>
>
> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> have no trouble with:
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> educated about HPV.
>
> And pretty sure about this:
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> is educated about HPV.
>
> But what about this one?
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
>
> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well
as” as
> equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your
informed
> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> welcome.
>
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
>
>
>
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><P>And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Paul D.</P>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]><BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM<BR>Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question<BR><BR>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<P>This is from <U>The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference</U> by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:</P>
<P>"Do not confuse the prepositions <EM>plus, in addition to, along with, </EM>and <EM>as well as</EM> with the coordinating conjunction <EM>and. And</EM> is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with <EM>plus, in addition to, along with, </EM>or <EM>as well as</EM> have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM<BR><BR><PRE>A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
> &nbsp;
> I have&nbsp;another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
> Maimon, Peritz, and
> Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
> group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f&nbsp; a word
group beginning
> with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
> the subject does not become plural" (478).
> Their example:&nbsp; My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
> the new school policy.
>
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:
>
> From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
> Morning everyone
> &nbsp;
> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> trouble.&nbsp; So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
> such things!
> &nbsp;
> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.&nbsp;
Indeed
> two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster &amp; Steadman, in
Writing
> and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that&nbsp;
principle
> elsewhere in W&amp;T.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;F&amp;S call
this sentence, "He, as
> well as his friends, was present" right but awkward.&nbsp; I
suspect
> they'd use the same classification for the S&amp;W
sentence.&nbsp; Though
> without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
> "and."&nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka.&nbsp; Maybe
> we can get some consensus from her.&nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> BTW, Craig, I&nbsp;offered up&nbsp;"objective"&nbsp;
a bit
> prematurely.&nbsp; I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
> you.
> &nbsp;
> Michael
> &nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;: --------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael,
> &nbsp;
> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> consensus.
> &nbsp;
> Dick
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> Rare Books
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> &nbsp;
>
> Dick et al
>
> &nbsp;
>
> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
> doesn't sound right.&nbsp; In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
> plural.&nbsp;&nbsp;Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
> as well.&nbsp; Many subjects succeeded by&nbsp;"as well
as" are intended
> indeed to be singular.&nbsp; The subject/example you provided, in most
> contexts, emphatically is NOT.&nbsp; Grammar, like language and
concepts,
> is contextual and objective.
>
> &nbsp;
>
> Michael&nbsp;&nbsp;
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;: --------------
> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to
“manners”
> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut:
"His
> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
> &nbsp;
> Dick Veit
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
> White give&nbsp;the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
> is objectionable" (21).
> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
> changes that in your sentence though.
> &nbsp;
> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:
>
> From: Veit, Richard &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>
>
> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> have no trouble with:
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> And pretty sure about this:
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> is educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> But what about this one?
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well
as” as
> equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your
informed
> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> welcome.
> &nbsp;
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
> &nbsp;
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
LISTSERV
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave
> the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
LISTSERV
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave
> the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
LISTSERV
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave
> the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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<p>
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--0-289383392-1213652346=:35200--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:48:40 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The sum of two plus two is four.
Native speakers say, two plus two is four. ESL speakers say, two plus two are four.
.brad.15jun08.
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:
"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' background='none' style='font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;background-color:#ffffff;width:100%;'><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'><P>The sum of two plus two is four.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Native speakers say, two plus two is four. ESL speakers say, two plus two are four.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>.brad.15jun08.</P>
<P><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 6/16/08, Paul E. Doniger <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></P>
<DIV class="undoreset clearfix" id=message254631283>
<DIV id=yiv836497031>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif">
<P><FONT size=2>And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>Paul D.</FONT></P>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]><BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM<BR>Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question<BR><BR>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<P>This is from <U>The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference</U> by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:</P>
<P>"Do not confuse the prepositions <EM>plus, in addition to, along with, </EM>and <EM>as well as</EM> with the coordinating conjunction <EM>and. And</EM> is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with <EM>plus, in addition to, along with, </EM>or <EM>as well as</EM> have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).</P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></td></tr></table><br>
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--0-1552490280-1213656520=:30461--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:50:45 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dee Allen-Kirkhouse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
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That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four." Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers didn't know grammar. ;-)
Dee
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul E. Doniger
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:
"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM
A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
>
> I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
> Maimon, Peritz, and
> Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
> group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f a word
group beginning
> with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
> the subject does not become plural" (478).
> Their example: My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
> the new school policy.
>
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
<[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
> Morning everyone
>
> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
> such things!
>
> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.
Indeed
> two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in
Writing
> and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that
principle
> elsewhere in W&T. F&S call
this sentence, "He, as
> well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I
suspect
> they'd use the same classification for the S&W
sentence. Though
> without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
> "and."
>
> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka. Maybe
> we can get some consensus from her.
>
> BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective"
a bit
> prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
> you.
>
> Michael
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael,
>
> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> consensus.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> Rare Books
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
> Dick et al
>
>
>
> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
> doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
> plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
> as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well
as" are intended
> indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in most
> contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and
concepts,
> is contextual and objective.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to
“manners”
> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut:
"His
> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
>
> Dick Veit
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
>
>
>
> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
> White give the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
> is objectionable" (21).
> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
> changes that in your sentence though.
>
> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>
>
> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> have no trouble with:
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> educated about HPV.
>
> And pretty sure about this:
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> is educated about HPV.
>
> But what about this one?
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
>
> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well
as” as
> equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your
informed
> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> welcome.
>
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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LISTSERV
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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<DIV>That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four." Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers didn't know grammar. ;-)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dee</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Paul E. Doniger</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif">
<P>And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Paul D.</P>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]><BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM<BR>Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question<BR><BR>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<P>This is from <U>The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference</U> by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:</P>
<P>"Do not confuse the prepositions <EM>plus, in addition to, along with, </EM>and <EM>as well as</EM> with the coordinating conjunction <EM>and. And</EM> is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with <EM>plus, in addition to, along with, </EM>or <EM>as well as</EM> have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM<BR><BR><PRE>A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
> &nbsp;
> I have&nbsp;another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
> Maimon, Peritz, and
> Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
> group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f&nbsp; a word
group beginning
> with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
> the subject does not become plural" (478).
> Their example:&nbsp; My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
> the new school policy.
>
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:
>
> From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
> Morning everyone
> &nbsp;
> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> trouble.&nbsp; So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
> such things!
> &nbsp;
> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.&nbsp;
Indeed
> two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster &amp; Steadman, in
Writing
> and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that&nbsp;
principle
> elsewhere in W&amp;T.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;F&amp;S call
this sentence, "He, as
> well as his friends, was present" right but awkward.&nbsp; I
suspect
> they'd use the same classification for the S&amp;W
sentence.&nbsp; Though
> without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
> "and."&nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka.&nbsp; Maybe
> we can get some consensus from her.&nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> BTW, Craig, I&nbsp;offered up&nbsp;"objective"&nbsp;
a bit
> prematurely.&nbsp; I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
> you.
> &nbsp;
> Michael
> &nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;: --------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael,
> &nbsp;
> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> consensus.
> &nbsp;
> Dick
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> Rare Books
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> &nbsp;
>
> Dick et al
>
> &nbsp;
>
> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
> doesn't sound right.&nbsp; In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
> plural.&nbsp;&nbsp;Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
> as well.&nbsp; Many subjects succeeded by&nbsp;"as well
as" are intended
> indeed to be singular.&nbsp; The subject/example you provided, in most
> contexts, emphatically is NOT.&nbsp; Grammar, like language and
concepts,
> is contextual and objective.
>
> &nbsp;
>
> Michael&nbsp;&nbsp;
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;: --------------
> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to
“manners”
> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut:
"His
> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
> &nbsp;
> Dick Veit
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> &nbsp;
>
>
>
>
> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
> White give&nbsp;the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
> is objectionable" (21).
> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
> changes that in your sentence though.
> &nbsp;
> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:
>
> From: Veit, Richard &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>
>
> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> have no trouble with:
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> And pretty sure about this:
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> is educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> But what about this one?
> &nbsp;
>
> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
> &nbsp;
> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well
as” as
> equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your
informed
> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> welcome.
> &nbsp;
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
> &nbsp;
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
LISTSERV
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave
> the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
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> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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> the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
LISTSERV
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave
> the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:32:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 04:39 PM 6/16/2008, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
>And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with
>reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
DD: I know the catechism well, but I know it in the singular verb. It
is drilled into my mind, but with the singular "is". Question; What
is three plus nine? Response; Three plus nine is twelve. Of course I
learned it in 1936. Probably a shift of grammatical agreement over time.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:03:33 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I've heard "two plus two are four," or more frequently "two twos are four" from British and West African speakers, but that goes back a few years.
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Allen-Kirkhouse [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 16, 2008 6:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four." Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers didn't know grammar. ;-)
Dee
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul E. Doniger<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:
"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM
A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
>
> I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
> Maimon, Peritz, and
> Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
> group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f a word
group beginning
> with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
> the subject does not become plural" (478).
> Their example: My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
> the new school policy.
>
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
<[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
> Morning everyone
>
> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
> such things!
>
> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.
Indeed
> two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in
Writing
> and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that
principle
> elsewhere in W&T. F&S call
this sentence, "He, as
> well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I
suspect
> they'd use the same classification for the S&W
sentence. Though
> without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
> "and."
>
> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka. Maybe
> we can get some consensus from her.
>
> BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective"
a bit
> prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
> you.
>
> Michael
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael,
>
> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> ?authorities? are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> consensus.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> Rare Books
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
> Dick et al
>
>
>
> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
> doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
> plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
> as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well
as" are intended
> indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in most
> contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and
concepts,
> is contextual and objective.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change ?manner? to
?manners?
> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn?t seem as clear cut:
"His
> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
>
> Dick Veit
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
>
>
>
> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
> White give the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
> is objectionable" (21).
> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
> changes that in your sentence though.
>
> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>
>
> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> have no trouble with:
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> educated about HPV.
>
> And pretty sure about this:
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> is educated about HPV.
>
> But what about this one?
>
>
> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
>
> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> agree with ?society? only (i.e., ?is?)? Or do we treat ?as well
as? as
> equivalent to ?and,? making ?are? the right choice? I seek your
informed
> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> welcome.
>
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:05:49 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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DD,
I learned it that way about ten years later.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 16, 2008 8:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
At 04:39 PM 6/16/2008, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
>And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with
>reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
DD: I know the catechism well, but I know it in the singular verb. It
is drilled into my mind, but with the singular "is". Question; What
is three plus nine? Response; Three plus nine is twelve. Of course I
learned it in 1936. Probably a shift of grammatical agreement over time.
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 21:19:58 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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What is the sum of one and zero? are it one? or is it one? Math
does not follow the grammatical rules. I can count the number of
people who have responded to this thread. But if I use math to count
them, I will come up with an amount and not a number of people.
On Jun 16, 2008, at 9:03 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> I've heard "two plus two are four," or more frequently "two twos
> are four" from British and West African speakers, but that goes
> back a few years.
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Allen-Kirkhouse
> [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: June 16, 2008 6:50 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
> That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American
> Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four."
> Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers
> didn't know grammar. ;-)
>
> Dee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul E. Doniger<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
> And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with
> reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
>
>
>
> Paul D.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
>
> This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary
> Lutz & Diane Stevenson:
>
> "Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with,
> and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the
> only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a
> compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a
> prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along
> with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or
> plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional
> phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).
>
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM
>
>
> A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
> preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
> of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
> slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
> won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
> Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as
> well as
> loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
> Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in
> subject
> slot is beyond me.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> Hi again everyone,
>>
>> I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
> edition) by
>> Maimon, Peritz, and
>> Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
> word
>> group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f a word
> group beginning
>> with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular
>> subject,
>> the subject does not become plural" (478).
>> Their example: My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
> opposes
>> the new school policy.
>>
>> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
> <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Morning everyone
>>
>> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
>> trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care
>> about
>> such things!
>>
>> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.
> Indeed
>> two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in
> Writing
>> and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
>> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that
> principle
>> elsewhere in W&T. F&S call
> this sentence, "He, as
>> well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I
> suspect
>> they'd use the same classification for the S&W
> sentence. Though
>> without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
> simply
>> "and."
>>
>> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
> Troyka. Maybe
>> we can get some consensus from her.
>>
>> BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective"
> a bit
>> prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
> get back to
>> you.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
>> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by
>> Carol
>> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not
>> saying
>> ?authorities? are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
>> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
>> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
>> consensus.
>>
>> Dick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen
>> Ultimate
>> Rare Books
>> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>>
>>
>> Dick et al
>>
>>
>>
>> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
> objectionable"
>> doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that
> "as well as his
>> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
> akin
>> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
>> plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
> should be
>> as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well
> as" are intended
>> indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in
>> most
>> contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and
> concepts,
>> is contextual and objective.
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
>> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that
>> intellectually
>> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change ?manner? to
> ?manners?
>> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn?t seem as clear cut:
> "His
>> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
>>
>> Dick Veit
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
>> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it
>> by with,
>> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less
>> than (21).
>> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
> Strunk and
>> White give the following example: "His speech as well as his
> manner
>> is objectionable" (21).
>> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
> "as well as"
>> changes that in your sentence though.
>>
>> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
>>
>>
>> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence.
>> These I
>> have no trouble with:
>>
>>
>> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
>> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about
>> HPV.
>> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk
>> individuals are
>> educated about HPV.
>>
>> And pretty sure about this:
>>
>>
>> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk
>> individuals)
>> is educated about HPV.
>>
>> But what about this one?
>>
>>
>> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
>> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
>>
>> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
>> agree with ?society? only (i.e., ?is?)? Or do we treat ?as well
> as? as
>> equivalent to ?and,? making ?are? the right choice? I seek your
> informed
>> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is
>> especially
>> welcome.
>>
>> Dick
>> ________________________________
>> Richard Veit
>> Department of English
>> University of North Carolina Wilmington
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
> LISTSERV
>> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave
>> the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
> LISTSERV
>> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> leave
>> the list"
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>> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave
>> the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at:
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>>
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>
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<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">What is the sum of one <i>and</i> zero? are it one? or is it one? Math does not follow the grammatical rules. I can count the number of people who have responded to this thread. But if I use math to count them, I will come up with an <i>amount </i>and not a <i>number</i> of people. <div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 16, 2008, at 9:03 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I've heard "two plus two are four," or more frequently "two twos are four" from British and West African speakers, but that goes back a few years.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Emeritus Professor of English</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Ball State University</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Muncie, IN<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>47306</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">________________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Dee Allen-Kirkhouse [<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>]</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: June 16, 2008 6:50 PM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four."<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers didn't know grammar.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;-)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dee</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Paul E. Doniger<<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: [log in to unmask]<<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Paul D.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">----- Original Message ----</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Carol Morrison <<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Craig Hancock <<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">slot is beyond me.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Craig</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hi again everyone,</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I have&nbsp;another reference: A Writer's Resource (second</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">edition) by</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Maimon, Peritz, and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">word</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f&nbsp; a word</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">group beginning</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the subject does not become plural" (478).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Their example:&nbsp; My teacher, as well as other faculty members,</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">opposes</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the new school policy.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&lt;<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&lt;<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Morning everyone</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">trouble.&nbsp; So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">such things!</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.&nbsp;</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Indeed</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster &amp; Steadman, in</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Writing</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that&nbsp;</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">principle</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">elsewhere in W&amp;T.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;F&amp;S call</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">this sentence, "He, as</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">well as his friends, was present" right but awkward.&nbsp; I</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">suspect</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">they'd use the same classification for the S&amp;W</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">sentence.&nbsp; Though</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">simply</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"and."&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Troyka.&nbsp; Maybe</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">we can get some consensus from her.&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">BTW, Craig, I&nbsp;offered up&nbsp;"objective"&nbsp;</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a bit</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">prematurely.&nbsp; I'm still working out that theory, but I'll</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">get back to</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Michael</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&lt;<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;: --------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Michael,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">?authorities? are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">consensus.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dick</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Rare Books</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dick et al</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">objectionable"</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">doesn't sound right.&nbsp; In that sentence I suspect that</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"as well as his</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">akin</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">plural.&nbsp;&nbsp;Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">should be</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">as well.&nbsp; Many subjects succeeded by&nbsp;"as well</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">as" are intended</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">indeed to be singular.&nbsp; The subject/example you provided, in most</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">contexts, emphatically is NOT.&nbsp; Grammar, like language and</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">concepts,</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is contextual and objective.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Michael&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&lt;<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;: --------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">but wish it sounded right too. For example, change ?manner? to</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">?manners?</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in the Strunk and White example and it doesn?t seem as clear cut:</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"His</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">speech as well as his manners is objectionable."</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dick Veit</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Strunk and</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">White give&nbsp;the following example: "His speech as well as his</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">manner</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is objectionable" (21).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"as well as"</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">changes that in your sentence though.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard &lt;<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Veit, Richard &lt;<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">have no trouble with:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">educated about HPV.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And pretty sure about this:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is educated about HPV.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">But what about this one?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">individuals, is/are educated about HPV.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">agree with ?society? only (i.e., ?is?)? Or do we treat ?as well</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">as? as</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">equivalent to ?and,? making ?are? the right choice? I seek your</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">informed</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">welcome.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dick</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Richard Veit</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Department of English</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">University of North Carolina Wilmington</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbsp;</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">interface</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">leave the list"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">interface</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">leave the list"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">interface</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">leave the list"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/ To join or leave this</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">LISTSERV</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">list, please visit the list's web interface at:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">leave</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the list"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/ To join or leave this</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">LISTSERV</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">list, please visit the list's web interface at:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">leave</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the list"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/ To join or leave this</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">LISTSERV</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">list, please visit the list's web interface at:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">leave</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the list"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">interface</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">at:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; 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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:05:30 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Miller, Robert" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
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Back in the sixties, I learned that two plus two is four. But, it was explained that it was an understood: "The sum of" ...
Bob Miller
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Susan van Druten
Sent: Mon 6/16/2008 10:19 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
What is the sum of one and zero? are it one? or is it one? Math does not follow the grammatical rules. I can count the number of people who have responded to this thread. But if I use math to count them, I will come up with an amount and not a number of people.
On Jun 16, 2008, at 9:03 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
I've heard "two plus two are four," or more frequently "two twos are four" from British and West African speakers, but that goes back a few years.
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Allen-Kirkhouse [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 16, 2008 6:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four." Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers didn't know grammar. ;-)
Dee
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul E. Doniger<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:
"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM
A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
Maimon, Peritz, and
Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f a word
group beginning
with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
the subject does not become plural" (478).
Their example: My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
the new school policy.
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
Morning everyone
I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
such things!
Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.
Indeed
two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in
Writing
and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that
principle
elsewhere in W&T. F&S call
this sentence, "He, as
well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I
suspect
they'd use the same classification for the S&W
sentence. Though
without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
"and."
I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka. Maybe
we can get some consensus from her.
BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective"
a bit
prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
you.
Michael
-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
<[log in to unmask]>: --------------
Michael,
You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
?authorities? are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
consensus.
Dick
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
Rare Books
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
Dick et al
Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well
as" are intended
indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in most
contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and
concepts,
is contextual and objective.
Michael
-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
<[log in to unmask]>: --------------
Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
but wish it sounded right too. For example, change ?manner? to
?manners?
in the Strunk and White example and it doesn?t seem as clear cut:
"His
speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
Dick Veit
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
White give the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
is objectionable" (21).
I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
changes that in your sentence though.
--- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
have no trouble with:
Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
educated about HPV.
And pretty sure about this:
Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
is educated about HPV.
But what about this one?
Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
agree with ?society? only (i.e., ?is?)? Or do we treat ?as well
as? as
equivalent to ?and,? making ?are? the right choice? I seek your
informed
guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
welcome.
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
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<DIV dir=ltr>Back in the sixties, I learned that two plus two is four. But, it was explained that it was an understood: "The sum of" ...</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Bob Miller<BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Susan van Druten<BR><B>Sent:</B> Mon 6/16/2008 10:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: a subject-verb-agreement question<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>What is the sum of one <I>and</I> zero? are it one? or is it one? Math does not follow the grammatical rules. I can count the number of people who have responded to this thread. But if I use math to count them, I will come up with an <I>amount </I>and not a <I>number</I> of people.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jun 16, 2008, at 9:03 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">I've heard "two plus two are four," or more frequently "two twos are four" from British and West African speakers, but that goes back a few years.</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Emeritus Professor of English</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Ball State University</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Muncie, IN<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>47306</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>] On Behalf Of Dee Allen-Kirkhouse [<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>]</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Sent: June 16, 2008 6:50 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four."<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers didn't know grammar.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>;-)</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Dee</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: Paul E. Doniger<<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: [log in to unmask]<<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Sent: 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Paul D.</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">----- Original Message ----</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: Carol Morrison <<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: Craig Hancock <<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">slot is beyond me.</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Craig</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Hi again everyone,</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">I have&nbsp;another reference: A Writer's Resource (second</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">edition) by</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Maimon, Peritz, and</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">word</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f&nbsp; a word</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">group beginning</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">the subject does not become plural" (478).</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Their example:&nbsp; My teacher, as well as other faculty members,</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">opposes</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">the new school policy.</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&lt;<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt; wrote:</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&lt;<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Morning everyone</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">trouble.&nbsp; So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">such things!</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Indeed</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster &amp; Steadman, in</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Writing</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">principle</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">elsewhere in W&amp;T.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;F&amp;S call</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">this sentence, "He, as</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">well as his friends, was present" right but awkward.&nbsp; I</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">suspect</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">they'd use the same classification for the S&amp;W</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">sentence.&nbsp; Though</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">simply</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">"and."&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Troyka.&nbsp; Maybe</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">we can get some consensus from her.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">BTW, Craig, I&nbsp;offered up&nbsp;"objective"&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">a bit</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">prematurely.&nbsp; I'm still working out that theory, but I'll</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">get back to</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">you.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Michael</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&lt;<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;: --------------</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Michael,</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">?authorities? are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">consensus.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Dick</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">[<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Rare Books</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Dick et al</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">objectionable"</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">doesn't sound right.&nbsp; In that sentence I suspect that</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">"as well as his</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">akin</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">plural.&nbsp;&nbsp;Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">should be</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">as well.&nbsp; Many subjects succeeded by&nbsp;"as well</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">as" are intended</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">indeed to be singular.&nbsp; The subject/example you provided, in most</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">contexts, emphatically is NOT.&nbsp; Grammar, like language and</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">concepts,</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">is contextual and objective.</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Michael&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&lt;<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;: --------------</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">but wish it sounded right too. For example, change ?manner? to</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">?manners?</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">in the Strunk and White example and it doesn?t seem as clear cut:</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">"His</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">speech as well as his manners is objectionable."</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Dick Veit</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">[<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Strunk and</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">White give&nbsp;the following example: "His speech as well as his</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">manner</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">is objectionable" (21).</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">"as well as"</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">changes that in your sentence though.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">--- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard &lt;<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt; wrote:</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: Veit, Richard &lt;<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">have no trouble with:</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">educated about HPV.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">And pretty sure about this:</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">is educated about HPV.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">But what about this one?</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">individuals, is/are educated about HPV.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">agree with ?society? only (i.e., ?is?)? Or do we treat ?as well</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">as? as</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">equivalent to ?and,? making ?are? the right choice? I seek your</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">informed</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">welcome.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Dick</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">________________________________</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Richard Veit</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Department of English</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">University of North Carolina Wilmington</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</DIV>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:44:43 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: a subject-verb agreement question
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The OED lists a number of uses of "As well as" in conjunctive role,
dating way back. This, from Mallory, is typical: 1470-85 MALORY Arthur
IX. xxxvi. 397 Whan men ben hote in dedes of armes ofte they hurte
their frendes as wel as their foes.
In this example, you could think "their friends" as news and "their
foes" almost as given, so that may be a useful pattern to emulate.
It's interesting that their one example of a structure in subject
position is treated as singular: 1821 CRAIG Lect. Drawing etc. vii. 404
The back-ground as well as other parts is dotted or stippled.
I think the commentary in Karl's post is by far the most thoughtful.
In a nutshell, common sense would call for some flexibility even
though prescriptive grammars present the singular as "correct."
Craig
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:24:03 +0300
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From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
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STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> About the only German use of "ueber" that most Americans are aware of is in the title of the national anthem, and that only because of the notoriety the Nazis gave it. So it gets borrowed with a high back rounded vowel and the sense "excessive(ly)".
>
> Herb
Well, there is also the song, "California Uber Alles", circa 1979 by the
Dead Kennedy's, a punk band from San Francisco. I see uber used as a
kind of superlative on the net, but have no idea how mainstream it has
become. A common sighting in the wild is "uber noob". This is mostly
confined to the gaming community. This sense seems more like "super"
than "excessively".
Mark
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:28:25 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
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At 09:19 PM 6/16/2008, Susan van Druten wrote:
>What is the sum of one and zero? are it one? or is it one? Math
>does not follow the grammatical rules. I can count the number of
>people who have responded to this thread. But if I use math to
>count them, I will come up with an amount and not a number of people.
DD: Trick question? "The sum is. . . ." Or, "It is . . . ."
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:52:04 -1000
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From: Susan Banner Inouye <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Über"-use?In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Folks,
Coincidentally, I heard a mainstream instance of "uber" just last night. Helen Mirren used it in an interview on the show "Top Gear" (BBC America), referring to the host as "the uber male", and Paris Hilton as "the uber female". In this context, I think the meaning is "the epitome".
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:30 am
Subject: Re: "Über"-use
To: [log in to unmask]
> STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> > About the only German use of "ueber" that most Americans are
> aware of is in the title of the national anthem, and that only
> because of the notoriety the Nazis gave it. So it gets
> borrowed with a high back rounded vowel and the sense "excessive(ly)".
> >
> > Herb
> Well, there is also the song, "California Uber Alles", circa
> 1979 by the
> Dead Kennedy's, a punk band from San Francisco. I see uber used
> as a
> kind of superlative on the net, but have no idea how mainstream
> it has
> become. A common sighting in the wild is "uber noob". This is
> mostly
> confined to the gaming community. This sense seems more like
> "super"
> than "excessively".
>
> Mark
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Susan Banner Inouye, PhD
Associate Professor, Language, Linguistics & Literature
Kapi'olani Community College
4303 Diamond Head Road
Honolulu, HI 96816
808-734-9708
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Hi Folks,<br><br>Coincidentally, I heard a mainstream instance of "uber" just last night. Helen Mirren used it in an interview on the show "Top Gear" (BBC America), referring to the host as "the uber male", and Paris Hilton as "the uber female". In this context, I think the meaning is "the epitome". <br><br>Susan<br><br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]><br>Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:30 am<br>Subject: Re: "Über"-use<br>To: [log in to unmask]<br><br>> STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:<br>> > About the only German use of "ueber" that most Americans are <br>> aware of is in the title of the national anthem, and that only <br>> because of the notoriety the Nazis gave it. So it gets <br>> borrowed with a high back rounded vowel and the sense "excessive(ly)".<br>> ><br>> > Herb<br>> Well, there is also the song, "California Uber Alles", circa <br>> 1979 by the <br>> Dead Kennedy's, a punk band from San Francisco. I see uber used <br>> as a <br>> kind of superlative on the net, but have no idea how mainstream <br>> it has <br>> become. A common sighting in the wild is "uber noob". This is <br>> mostly <br>> confined to the gaming community. This sense seems more like <br>> "super" <br>> than "excessively".<br>> <br>> Mark<br>> <br>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web <br>> interface at:<br>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>> <br>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br><br>Susan Banner Inouye, PhD<br>Associate Professor, Language, Linguistics & Literature<br>Kapi'olani Community College<br>4303 Diamond Head Road<br>Honolulu, HI 96816<br>808-734-9708<br><br>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:53:38 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
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Let me rephrase this. If "and" (unlike "as well as" or "plus")
between two subjects should always result in the use of plural verb,
then the sentence One and zero are one is grammatically correct, but
logically it sounds foolish.
On Jun 17, 2008, at 11:28 AM, DD Farms wrote:
> At 09:19 PM 6/16/2008, Susan van Druten wrote:
>> What is the sum of one and zero? are it one? or is it one? Math
>> does not follow the grammatical rules. I can count the number of
>> people who have responded to this thread. But if I use math to
>> count them, I will come up with an amount and not a number of people.
>
> DD: Trick question? "The sum is. . . ." Or, "It is . . . ."
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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Let me rephrase this. If "and" (unlike "as well as" or "plus") between two subjects should always result in the use of plural verb, then the sentence <i>One and zero are one </i>is grammatically correct, but logically it sounds foolish.<div><br><div><div>On Jun 17, 2008, at 11:28 AM, DD Farms wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">At 09:19 PM 6/16/2008, Susan van Druten wrote:</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">What is the sum of one and zero?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>are it one?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>or is it one?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Math does not follow the grammatical rules.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>I can count the number of people who have responded to this thread.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>But if I use math to count them, I will come up with an amount and not a number of people.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">DD: Trick question? "The sum is. . . ." Or, "It is . . . ."</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and select "Join or leave the list"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</div> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:58:10 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question
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Also note that when you go back to the 18th century and earlier, it's
fairly easy to find examples where conjunction with 'and' does not make
the NP take a plural verb, even though current usage would definitely
require the plural (i.e., we're not talking about instances like
"drinking and driving _is_ illegal"),
Hence you have Shakespeare writing:
"The nature of our people,
Our city's institutions, and the terms
For common justice, you are as pregnant in
As art and practice _hath_ enriched any
That we remember." (Measure for Measure, I.i)
Even Lowth did not wholly disapprove of it. Here are his remarks. Note
particularly his rationalization of the exceptions:
'Two or more Nouns in the Singular Number, joined together by one or
more Copulative Conjunctions (1), have Verbs, Nouns, and Pronouns,
agreeing with them in the Plural Number: as, "_Socrates and Plato were_
wise; _they were_ the most eminent _Philosophers_ of Greece." But
sometimes, after an enumeration of particulars thus connected, the Verb
follows in the Singular Number; and is understood as applied to each of
the preceding terms: as,--"The glorious Inhabitants of those sacred
places, where nothing but light and blessed immortality, no shadow of
matter for tears, discontentments, griefs, and uncomfortable passions to
work upon; but all _joy, tranquility, and peace_, even for ever and ever
_doth dwell_." Hooker B. i. 4. "Sand, and salt, and a mass of iron, _is_
easier to bear, than a man without understanding" Eccles xxii. 15 (1).'
With Lindley Murray and later writers, though, this exception is removed.
Craig Hancock wrote:
> The OED lists a number of uses of "As well as" in conjunctive role,
> dating way back. This, from Mallory, is typical: 1470-85 MALORY Arthur
> IX. xxxvi. 397 Whan men ben hote in dedes of armes ofte they hurte
> their frendes as wel as their foes.
>
> In this example, you could think "their friends" as news and "their
> foes" almost as given, so that may be a useful pattern to emulate.
>
> It's interesting that their one example of a structure in subject
> position is treated as singular: 1821 CRAIG Lect. Drawing etc. vii. 404
> The back-ground as well as other parts is dotted or stippled.
>
> I think the commentary in Karl's post is by far the most thoughtful.
> In a nutshell, common sense would call for some flexibility even
> though prescriptive grammars present the singular as "correct."
>
> Craig
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:28:54 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question
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Shakespeare (as well as his contemporaries) often puts a singular verb with a plural subject: "Words to the heat of deeds too cold breath gives" (_Macbeth_ 2.1.61), even when the subject is a simple plural word and not a compound subject. It is quite common for the period (did they speak that way as well?).
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:58:10 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question
Also note that when you go back to the 18th century and earlier, it's
fairly easy to find examples where conjunction with 'and' does not make
the NP take a plural verb, even though current usage would definitely
require the plural (i.e., we're not talking about instances like
"drinking and driving _is_ illegal"),
Hence you have Shakespeare writing:
"The nature of our people,
Our city's institutions, and the terms
For common justice, you are as pregnant in
As art and practice _hath_ enriched any
That we remember." (Measure for Measure, I.i)
Even Lowth did not wholly disapprove of it. Here are his remarks. Note
particularly his rationalization of the exceptions:
'Two or more Nouns in the Singular Number, joined together by one or
more Copulative Conjunctions (1), have Verbs, Nouns, and Pronouns,
agreeing with them in the Plural Number: as, "_Socrates and Plato were_
wise; _they were_ the most eminent _Philosophers_ of Greece." But
sometimes, after an enumeration of particulars thus connected, the Verb
follows in the Singular Number; and is understood as applied to each of
the preceding terms: as,--"The glorious Inhabitants of those sacred
places, where nothing but light and blessed immortality, no shadow of
matter for tears, discontentments, griefs, and uncomfortable passions to
work upon; but all _joy, tranquility, and peace_, even for ever and ever
_doth dwell_." Hooker B. i. 4. "Sand, and salt, and a mass of iron, _is_
easier to bear, than a man without understanding" Eccles xxii. 15 (1).'
With Lindley Murray and later writers, though, this exception is removed.
Craig Hancock wrote:
> The OED lists a number of uses of "As well as" in conjunctive role,
> dating way back. This, from Mallory, is typical: 1470-85 MALORY Arthur
> IX. xxxvi. 397 Whan men ben hote in dedes of armes ofte they hurte
> their frendes as wel as their foes.
>
> In this example, you could think "their friends" as news and "their
> foes" almost as given, so that may be a useful pattern to emulate.
>
> It's interesting that their one example of a structure in subject
> position is treated as singular: 1821 CRAIG Lect. Drawing etc. vii. 404
> The back-ground as well as other parts is dotted or stippled.
>
> I think the commentary in Karl's post is by far the most thoughtful.
> In a nutshell, common sense would call for some flexibility even
> though prescriptive grammars present the singular as "correct."
>
> Craig
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--0-1093454210-1213730934=:25912
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT face="bookman old style, new york, times, serif">Shakespeare (as well as his contemporaries) often puts a singular verb with a plural subject: "Words to the heat of deeds too cold breath gives" (_Macbeth_ 2.1.61), even when the subject is a simple plural word and not a compound subject. It is quite common for the period (did they speak that way as well?).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT face="bookman old style, new york, times, serif"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT face="bookman old style, new york, times, serif">Paul D. <BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]><BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:58:10 PM<BR>Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question<BR><BR>Also note that when you go back to the 18th century and earlier, it's <BR>fairly easy to find examples where conjunction with 'and' does not make <BR>the NP take a plural verb, even though current usage would definitely <BR>require the plural (i.e., we're not talking about instances like <BR>"drinking and driving _is_ illegal"),<BR><BR>Hence you have Shakespeare writing:<BR><BR>"The nature of our people,<BR>Our city's institutions, and the terms<BR>For common justice, you are as pregnant in<BR>As art and practice _hath_ enriched any<BR>That we remember." (Measure for Measure, I.i)<BR><BR>Even Lowth did not wholly disapprove of it. Here are his remarks. Note
<BR>particularly his rationalization of the exceptions:<BR><BR>'Two or more Nouns in the Singular Number, joined together by one or <BR>more Copulative Conjunctions (1), have Verbs, Nouns, and Pronouns, <BR>agreeing with them in the Plural Number: as, "_Socrates and Plato were_ <BR>wise; _they were_ the most eminent _Philosophers_ of Greece." But <BR>sometimes, after an enumeration of particulars thus connected, the Verb <BR>follows in the Singular Number; and is understood as applied to each of <BR>the preceding terms: as,--"The glorious Inhabitants of those sacred <BR>places, where nothing but light and blessed immortality, no shadow of <BR>matter for tears, discontentments, griefs, and uncomfortable passions to <BR>work upon; but all _joy, tranquility, and peace_, even for ever and ever <BR>_doth dwell_." Hooker B. i. 4. "Sand, and salt, and a mass of iron, _is_ <BR>easier to bear, than a man without understanding" Eccles xxii. 15 (1).'<BR><BR>With
Lindley Murray and later writers, though, this exception is removed.<BR><BR>Craig Hancock wrote:<BR>> The OED lists a number of uses of "As well as" in conjunctive role,<BR>> dating way back. This, from Mallory, is typical: 1470-85 MALORY Arthur<BR>> IX. xxxvi. 397 Whan men ben hote in dedes of armes ofte they hurte<BR>> their frendes as wel as their foes.<BR>> <BR>> In this example, you could think "their friends" as news and "their<BR>> foes" almost as given, so that may be a useful pattern to emulate.<BR>> <BR>> It's interesting that their one example of a structure in subject<BR>> position is treated as singular: 1821 CRAIG Lect. Drawing etc. vii. 404<BR>> The back-ground as well as other parts is dotted or stippled.<BR>> <BR>> I think the commentary in Karl's post is by far the most thoughtful.<BR>> In a nutshell, common sense would call for some
flexibility even<BR>> though prescriptive grammars present the singular as "correct."<BR>> <BR>> Craig<BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>> <A href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A href="http://ateg.org/" target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>> <BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR> <A href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href="http://ateg.org/" target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></div></body></html>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:10:32 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Subject-verb agreement ATEG Digest - 15 Jun 2008 to 16 Jun
2008 (#2008-134)
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The clause "his speech as well as his manners is objectionable" does not
sound right because the speaker (or writer) did not know (or did not care)
that a pause (or comma) should precede and follow 'as well as his manners'.
Should the speaker or writer have deliberately chosen not do so, that
omission is a personal prerogative that has no relation to the status of
Standard English. The majority of educated speakers have to make the same
error consistently before the dictionaries recognize it as Standard English.
Scott
The sequence of tenses in the second sentence is deliberate: I am using 'is'
and 'has' in the aorist aspect of the present tense.
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:44:46 -0500
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From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: uber noob
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>. . .. I see uber used as a kind of superlative on the net, but have
>no idea how mainstream it has become. A common sighting in the wild
>is "uber noob". This is mostly confined to the gaming community.
>This sense seems more like "super" than "excessively".
DD: Does it stand for a very new novice, or a slightly older one?
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:35:15 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Über"-use?In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I haven't been following this thread closely, so forgive me if this has
already been mentioned, but surely "uber noob", "uber nerd", "uber geek"
and the like are coined after the model of Nietzsche's Übermensch.
Karl
MC Johnstone wrote:
> STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>> About the only German use of "ueber" that most Americans are aware of
>> is in the title of the national anthem, and that only because of the
>> notoriety the Nazis gave it. So it gets borrowed with a high back
>> rounded vowel and the sense "excessive(ly)".
>>
>> Herb
> Well, there is also the song, "California Uber Alles", circa 1979 by the
> Dead Kennedy's, a punk band from San Francisco. I see uber used as a
> kind of superlative on the net, but have no idea how mainstream it has
> become. A common sighting in the wild is "uber noob". This is mostly
> confined to the gaming community. This sense seems more like "super"
> than "excessively".
>
> Mark
>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:13:40 +0300
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From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: uber noob
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DD Farms wrote:
>> . . .. I see uber used as a kind of superlative on the net, but have
>> no idea how mainstream it has become. A common sighting in the wild
>> is "uber noob". This is mostly confined to the gaming community. This
>> sense seems more like "super" than "excessively".
>
> DD: Does it stand for a very new novice, or a slightly older one?
>
According to the Urban Dictionary, it is the highly skilled novice who
shadows skilled gamers and mimics them, quickly learning the game play.
Mark
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:19:02 +0000
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From: Tabetha Bernstein-Danis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: uber noob
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It refers to a very new novice. (e.g., Today is Laser's first day playing WOW. He's an uber noob.)
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:44:46
To:[log in to unmask]
Subject: uber noob
>. . .. I see uber used as a kind of superlative on the net, but have
>no idea how mainstream it has become. A common sighting in the wild
>is "uber noob". This is mostly confined to the gaming community.
>This sense seems more like "super" than "excessively".
DD: Does it stand for a very new novice, or a slightly older one?
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:31:36 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Über"-use?In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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They may be, and given the circles in which they are used, familiarity with Nietzsche's term, if not with Nietzsche himself, wouldn't be surprising.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 17, 2008 8:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "Über"-use
I haven't been following this thread closely, so forgive me if this has
already been mentioned, but surely "uber noob", "uber nerd", "uber geek"
and the like are coined after the model of Nietzsche's Übermensch.
Karl
MC Johnstone wrote:
> STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>> About the only German use of "ueber" that most Americans are aware of
>> is in the title of the national anthem, and that only because of the
>> notoriety the Nazis gave it. So it gets borrowed with a high back
>> rounded vowel and the sense "excessive(ly)".
>>
>> Herb
> Well, there is also the song, "California Uber Alles", circa 1979 by the
> Dead Kennedy's, a punk band from San Francisco. I see uber used as a
> kind of superlative on the net, but have no idea how mainstream it has
> become. A common sighting in the wild is "uber noob". This is mostly
> confined to the gaming community. This sense seems more like "super"
> than "excessively".
>
> Mark
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:40:25 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question
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I suspect they followed the same rule of proximity we follow today. In Standard English disjunctive subjects with number disagreement the verb tends to agree with the second disjunct:
Either the girls or Jack has just arrived.
In less formal Engish, the verb tends to agree with the nearest noun, even if that noun is not the head noun of the Subject NP.
All ten thousand books about the 2000 election is in that room.
The book about the architect who designed those buildings are interesting.
Not the best of examples of this phenomenon, but we've seen it in our students' writing and probably when editing our own. Proximity carries considerable weight in agreement phenomena. I suspect, though, that a plural subject ending in a singular noun is less likely to cause proximity concord, as in my first example, than a singular subject ending in a plural noun.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 17, 2008 3:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question
Shakespeare (as well as his contemporaries) often puts a singular verb with a plural subject: "Words to the heat of deeds too cold breath gives" (_Macbeth_ 2.1.61), even when the subject is a simple plural word and not a compound subject. It is quite common for the period (did they speak that way as well?).
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:58:10 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question
Also note that when you go back to the 18th century and earlier, it's
fairly easy to find examples where conjunction with 'and' does not make
the NP take a plural verb, even though current usage would definitely
require the plural (i.e., we're not talking about instances like
"drinking and driving _is_ illegal"),
Hence you have Shakespeare writing:
"The nature of our people,
Our city's institutions, and the terms
For common justice, you are as pregnant in
As art and practice _hath_ enriched any
That we remember." (Measure for Measure, I.i)
Even Lowth did not wholly disapprove of it. Here are his remarks. Note
particularly his rationalization of the exceptions:
'Two or more Nouns in the Singular Number, joined together by one or
more Copulative Conjunctions (1), have Verbs, Nouns, and Pronouns,
agreeing with them in the Plural Number: as, "_Socrates and Plato were_
wise; _they were_ the most eminent _Philosophers_ of Greece." But
sometimes, after an enumeration of particulars thus connected, the Verb
follows in the Singular Number; and is understood as applied to each of
the preceding terms: as,--"The glorious Inhabitants of those sacred
places, where nothing but light and blessed immortality, no shadow of
matter for tears, discontentments, griefs, and uncomfortable passions to
work upon; but all _joy, tranquility, and peace_, even for ever and ever
_doth dwell_." Hooker B. i. 4. "Sand, and salt, and a mass of iron, _is_
easier to bear, than a man without understanding" Eccles xxii. 15 (1).'
With Lindley Murray and later writers, though, this exception is removed.
Craig Hancock wrote:
> The OED lists a number of uses of "As well as" in conjunctive role,
> dating way back. This, from Mallory, is typical: 1470-85 MALORY Arthur
> IX. xxxvi. 397 Whan men ben hote in dedes of armes ofte they hurte
> their frendes as wel as their foes.
>
> In this example, you could think "their friends" as news and "their
> foes" almost as given, so that may be a useful pattern to emulate.
>
> It's interesting that their one example of a structure in subject
> position is treated as singular: 1821 CRAIG Lect. Drawing etc. vii. 404
> The back-ground as well as other parts is dotted or stippled.
>
> I think the commentary in Karl's post is by far the most thoughtful.
> In a nutshell, common sense would call for some flexibility even
> though prescriptive grammars present the singular as "correct."
>
> Craig
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:41:32 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question
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I learned that particular exception in school, that if two nouns are very closely related the subject can be treated as singular. This works particularly well when there is an article on the first noun and not on the second.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 17, 2008 1:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb agreement question
Also note that when you go back to the 18th century and earlier, it's
fairly easy to find examples where conjunction with 'and' does not make
the NP take a plural verb, even though current usage would definitely
require the plural (i.e., we're not talking about instances like
"drinking and driving _is_ illegal"),
Hence you have Shakespeare writing:
"The nature of our people,
Our city's institutions, and the terms
For common justice, you are as pregnant in
As art and practice _hath_ enriched any
That we remember." (Measure for Measure, I.i)
Even Lowth did not wholly disapprove of it. Here are his remarks. Note
particularly his rationalization of the exceptions:
'Two or more Nouns in the Singular Number, joined together by one or
more Copulative Conjunctions (1), have Verbs, Nouns, and Pronouns,
agreeing with them in the Plural Number: as, "_Socrates and Plato were_
wise; _they were_ the most eminent _Philosophers_ of Greece." But
sometimes, after an enumeration of particulars thus connected, the Verb
follows in the Singular Number; and is understood as applied to each of
the preceding terms: as,--"The glorious Inhabitants of those sacred
places, where nothing but light and blessed immortality, no shadow of
matter for tears, discontentments, griefs, and uncomfortable passions to
work upon; but all _joy, tranquility, and peace_, even for ever and ever
_doth dwell_." Hooker B. i. 4. "Sand, and salt, and a mass of iron, _is_
easier to bear, than a man without understanding" Eccles xxii. 15 (1).'
With Lindley Murray and later writers, though, this exception is removed.
Craig Hancock wrote:
> The OED lists a number of uses of "As well as" in conjunctive role,
> dating way back. This, from Mallory, is typical: 1470-85 MALORY Arthur
> IX. xxxvi. 397 Whan men ben hote in dedes of armes ofte they hurte
> their frendes as wel as their foes.
>
> In this example, you could think "their friends" as news and "their
> foes" almost as given, so that may be a useful pattern to emulate.
>
> It's interesting that their one example of a structure in subject
> position is treated as singular: 1821 CRAIG Lect. Drawing etc. vii. 404
> The back-ground as well as other parts is dotted or stippled.
>
> I think the commentary in Karl's post is by far the most thoughtful.
> In a nutshell, common sense would call for some flexibility even
> though prescriptive grammars present the singular as "correct."
>
> Craig
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:44:24 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Über"-use?In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I missed the song, but I fear my ignorance of pop culture is profound.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MC Johnstone [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 17, 2008 10:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "Über"-use
STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> About the only German use of "ueber" that most Americans are aware of is in the title of the national anthem, and that only because of the notoriety the Nazis gave it. So it gets borrowed with a high back rounded vowel and the sense "excessive(ly)".
>
> Herb
Well, there is also the song, "California Uber Alles", circa 1979 by the
Dead Kennedy's, a punk band from San Francisco. I see uber used as a
kind of superlative on the net, but have no idea how mainstream it has
become. A common sighting in the wild is "uber noob". This is mostly
confined to the gaming community. This sense seems more like "super"
than "excessively".
Mark
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:26:58 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The Death of the Sentence?
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Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented" the sentence?
The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
By Linton Weeks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging -- seeping into academic writing.
But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death of the English sentence.
Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of human communication: the sentence.
This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history. Storytelling itself.
He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects, nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus wept.")
Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair step chiseled in a mountainside.
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<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' background='none' style='font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;width:100%;'><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'><DIV id=yiv1444485453>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented" the sentence?</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?</SPAN></B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">By <A title="Send an e-mail to Linton Weeks" href="http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/linton+weeks/" target=_blank rel=nofollow><SPAN style="COLOR: #0c4790">Linton Weeks</SPAN></A></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Washington</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Post Staff Writer <BR>Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01 </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere. </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">One recent report, young Americans don't write well. </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging -- seeping into academic writing. </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death of the English sentence. </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Librarian of Congress </FONT><A href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/James+Billington?tid=informline" target=_blank rel=nofollow><SPAN style="COLOR: #0c4790"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>James Billington</FONT></SPAN></A><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">, for one. "I see creeping inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of human communication: the sentence. </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history. Storytelling itself. </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects, nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created. </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus wept.") </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><STRONG>Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to chaos.</STRONG> It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair step chiseled in a mountainside.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P></DIV></td></tr></table><br>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:49:37 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: uber noob
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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>DD Farms wrote re ueber noob:
>>DD: Does it stand for a very new novice, or a slightly older one?
At 10:13 PM 6/17/2008, MC Johnstone wrote:
>According to the Urban Dictionary, it is the highly skilled novice
>who shadows skilled gamers and mimics them, quickly learning the game play.
DD: Thanks for the reference, I have book marked it. I did note,when
I went there, that in addition to your cite, it also had one implying
a novice who would never improve, i.e. A hopeless newbie. Also
interesting was, "He has one kill and 200 deaths."
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:57:59 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
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Hm.
Offhand, I think we've been using sentences about as long as we've been
using language. That is to say - I know standardized spelling came along
just after the printing press (more or less - I'm condensing by a half
century or so), and as I recall standardized grammar followed along about
the same time. That said, the Anglo-Saxons were using sentences, as were
the Angles and Saxons before them.
I know it sounds pedantic, but the point I am trying to make is that our
language has always been subject to change; some of that change has been
quite radical indeed. I'm a very pro-grammar person, myself (why would I be
here otherwise?) but I try to take a longer view whenever possible.
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The Death of the Sentence?
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may have
read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to last
line because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented" the sentence?
The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
By <http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/linton+weeks/> Linton
Weeks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
seeping into academic writing.
But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death of
the English sentence.
Librarian of Congress
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/James+Billington?tid=inform
line> James Billington, for one. "I see creeping inarticulateness," he says,
and the demise of the basic component of human communication: the sentence.
This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is symptomatic
of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the sentence croaks, so
will critical thought. The chronicling of history. Storytelling itself.
He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are no
heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus wept.")
Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to chaos.
It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair step
chiseled in a mountainside.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Offhand, I think we’ve been using
sentences about as long as we’ve been using language. That is to say –
I know standardized spelling came along just after the printing press (more or
less – I’m condensing by a half century or so), and as I recall
standardized grammar followed along about the same time. That said, the
Anglo-Saxons were using sentences, as were the Angles and Saxons before them…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I know it sounds pedantic, but the point I
am trying to make is that our language has always been subject to change; some
of that change has been quite radical indeed. I’m a very pro-grammar person,
myself (why would I be here otherwise?) but I try to take a longer view
whenever possible.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-patty<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>Carol Morrison<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 18, 2008
10:27 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> The Death of the
Sentence?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%"
style='width:100.0%'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div id=yiv1444485453>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=4 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:14.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Hi
everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may have
read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to last line
because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented" the
sentence?</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><font size=4 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:14.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?</span></font></b><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><i><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-style:italic'>By <a
href="http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/linton+weeks/"
target="_blank" title="Send an e-mail to Linton Weeks"><font color="#0c4790"><span
style='color:#0C4790'>Linton Weeks</span></font></a></span></font></i><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Washington</span></font></st1:place></st1:State><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Post Staff Writer <br>
Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01 </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The demise of orderly writing: signs
everywhere. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>One recent report, young Americans don't
write well. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>In a survey, Internet language --
abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging -- seeping into academic writing. </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>But above all, what really scares a lot
of scholars: the impending death of the English sentence. </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Librarian of Congress </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><a
href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/James+Billington?tid=informline"
target="_blank"><font size=3 color="#0c4790" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#0C4790'>James
Billington</span></font></a></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'>, for one. "I see creeping inarticulateness,"
he says, and the demise of the basic component of human communication: the
sentence. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>This assault on the lowly -- and mighty
-- sentence, he says, is symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to
civilization. If the sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling
of history. Storytelling itself. </span></font><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>He has a point. The sentence itself is a
story, with a beginning, a middle and an end. Something happens in a
sentence. Without subjects, there are no heroes or villains. Without verbs,
there is no action. Without objects, nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or
created. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Plus, simple sentences clarify complex
situations. ("Jesus wept.") </span></font><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><strong><b><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Since its
invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to chaos.</span></font></b></strong><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> It's the handle on the pitcher, a
tonic chord in music, a stair step chiseled in a mountainside.</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:02:22 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SUMMARY: a subject-verb agreement question
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I started this discussion by asking for "a little help, please," and I
got even more generous assistance than I expected, all of it helpful.
I'll summarize what I learned:
* The short version of the authoritative consensus is: Phrases
introduced by "as well as" (and similar terms) do not affect verb
agreement. "Exercise, as well as medication, reduces blood pressure."
* The longer version is more nuanced and acknowledges some room to
maneuver:
* Usually "as well as" phrases function in a distinctly
parenthetical way (set off in speech by pauses and in writing by commas,
dashes, or parentheses); these do not affect the verb: "Antoine-as well
as everyone else I've met-treats me like a pariah."
* Some other times "as well as" phrases act more like
simple conjunctions and then do affect the verb: "Her jewelry as well as
her clothes bespeak wealth."
This is one area where experienced writers may feel confidence in
trusting their instincts.
Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion.
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I started this discussion by asking for “a
little help, please,” and I got even more generous assistance than I
expected, all of it helpful. I’ll summarize what I learned:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The
short version of the authoritative consensus is: <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>Phrases introduced by “as well as”
(and similar terms) do not affect verb agreement</span></i>. “Exercise,
as well as medication, reduces blood pressure.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The
longer version is more nuanced and acknowledges some room to maneuver: <o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<ul style='margin-top:0in' type=circle>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Usually
“as well as” phrases function in a distinctly parenthetical
way (set off in speech by pauses and in writing by commas, dashes, or
parentheses); these do not affect the verb: “Antoine—as well
as everyone else I’ve met—treats me like a pariah.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Some
other times “as well as” phrases act more like simple conjunctions
and then do affect the verb: "Her jewelry as well as her clothes
bespeak wealth.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ul>
</ul>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is one area where experienced writers
may feel confidence in trusting their instincts.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks to all who contributed to the
discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=teal face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=teal face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor="UNCW" w:insDate="2008-06-18T10:09:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="UNCW" w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T10:09:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on"><font color=teal><span style='color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceType><font
color=teal><span style='color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor="UNCW" w:insDate="2008-06-18T10:09:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T10:09:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on"><font color=teal><span
style='color:teal'>North Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=teal><span style='color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City w:insAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T10:09:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T10:09:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T10:09:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T10:09:00Z"><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font
color=teal><span style='color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C8D154.45368FB1--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:41:43 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
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Twenty-five years ago Harvey Daniels wrote a wonderful book, Famous Last
Words: The American Language Crisis Reconsidered. His first sentence:
"The deathwatch over American English has begun again." He wrote:
Predictions of linguistic doom have become a growth industry. Time
magazine asks: "Can't Anyone Here Speak English?" while Newsweek
explains "Why Johnny Can't Write." TV Guide warns of "The New
Illiteracy," Saturday Review bemoans "The Plight of the English
Language," and even United Airline's Mainliner Magazine blusters "Who's
Been Messing Around with Our Mother Tongue?"
Daniels' book shows a telling and amusing pattern. What the voices of
doom say about the death of the English language/writing/literacy/the
sentence today is almost exactly what they were saying in 1983-and also
what they were saying in 1950, 1900, 1850, and on back as far as you
care to go. So when you read this: "From every college in the country
goes up the cry, 'Our freshmen can't spell, can't punctuate.' Every high
school is in disrepair because pupils are so ignorant of the merest
rudiments," you might want to check the date (that one was written in
1917). How about "Our language is degrading very fast"? That was poet
James Beattie in 1785. Addison, Swift, even William Caxton in 1478 all
said that our language was deteriorating into chaos.
The hallmark of all these jeremiads is the fiction that in the past the
state of the language was really good, but today we are in a sorry state
and the future is dire. The only problem is that it's hard to find when
the good old days were because at wherever era you look people were also
saying exactly the same thing then.
If we've been on a downward spiral every since Hengist and Horsa got off
the boat in 443, it's a miracle we're able to talk at all today. One
can't read these "writing on the wall" laments without thinking they
tell us a lot more about human psychology than about any actual defect
or deterioration in language.
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The Death of the Sentence?
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented" the
sentence?
The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
By Linton Weeks
<http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/linton+weeks/>
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
seeping into academic writing.
But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
of the English sentence.
Librarian of Congress James Billington
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/James+Billington?tid=in
formline> , for one. "I see creeping inarticulateness," he says, and the
demise of the basic component of human communication: the sentence.
This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
Storytelling itself.
He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
middle and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects,
there are no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action.
Without objects, nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus wept.")
Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
step chiseled in a mountainside.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Twenty-five years ago Harvey Daniels wrote
a wonderful book, <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Famous Last Words: The
American Language Crisis Reconsidered</span></i>. His first sentence: “The
deathwatch over American English has begun again.” He wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Predictions of linguistic
doom have become a growth industry. <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Time </span></i>magazine
asks: “Can’t Anyone Here Speak English?” while <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>Newsweek</span></i> explains “Why Johnny Can’t
Write.” <i><span style='font-style:italic'>TV Guide</span></i> warns of “The
New Illiteracy,” <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Saturday Review</span></i>
bemoans “The Plight of the English Language,” and even United
Airline’s <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Mainliner Magazine </span></i>blusters
“Who’s Been Messing Around with Our Mother Tongue?”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Daniels’ book shows a telling and amusing
pattern. What the voices of doom say about the death of the English language/writing/literacy/the
sentence today is almost exactly what they were saying in 1983—and also
what they were saying in 1950, 1900, 1850, and on back as far as you care to
go. So when you read this: “From every college in the country goes up the
cry, ‘Our freshmen can’t spell, can’t punctuate.’ Every
high school is in disrepair because pupils are so ignorant of the merest
rudiments,” you might want to check the date (that one was written in
1917). How about “Our language is degrading very fast”? That was poet
James Beattie in 1785. <st1:place w:st="on">Addison</st1:place>, Swift, even
William Caxton in 1478 all said that our language was deteriorating into chaos.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The hallmark of all these jeremiads is the
fiction that in the past the state of the language was really good, but today
we are in a sorry state and the future is dire. The only problem is that it’s
hard to find when the good old days were because at wherever era you look
people were also saying exactly the same thing then. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If we’ve been on a downward spiral
every since Hengist and Horsa got off the boat in 443, it’s a miracle we’re
able to talk at all today. One can’t read these “writing on the
wall” laments without thinking they tell us a lot more about human
psychology than about any actual defect or deterioration in language. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=teal face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=teal face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor="UNCW" w:insDate="2008-06-18T11:05:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="UNCW" w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T11:05:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on"><font color=teal><span style='color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceType><font
color=teal><span style='color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor="UNCW" w:insDate="2008-06-18T11:05:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T11:05:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on"><font color=teal><span
style='color:teal'>North Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=teal><span style='color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City w:insAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T11:05:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T11:05:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor="UNCW"
w:insDate="2008-06-18T11:05:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="UNCW"
w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T11:05:00Z"><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font
color=teal><span style='color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>Carol Morrison<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 18, 2008
10:27 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> The Death of the
Sentence?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%"
style='width:100.0%'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div id=yiv1444485453>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=4 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:14.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Hi
everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may have
read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to last line
because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented" the
sentence?</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><font size=4 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:14.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?</span></font></b><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><i><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-style:italic'>By <a
href="http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/linton+weeks/"
target="_blank" title="Send an e-mail to Linton Weeks"><font color="#0c4790"><span
style='color:#0C4790'>Linton Weeks</span></font></a></span></font></i><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Washington</span></font></st1:place></st1:State><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Post Staff Writer <br>
Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01 </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The demise of orderly writing: signs
everywhere. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>One recent report, young Americans don't
write well. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>In a survey, Internet language --
abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging -- seeping into academic writing. </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>But above all, what really scares a lot
of scholars: the impending death of the English sentence. </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Librarian of Congress </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><a
href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/James+Billington?tid=informline"
target="_blank"><font size=3 color="#0c4790" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#0C4790'>James
Billington</span></font></a></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'>, for one. "I see creeping inarticulateness,"
he says, and the demise of the basic component of human communication: the
sentence. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>This assault on the lowly -- and mighty
-- sentence, he says, is symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to
civilization. If the sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The
chronicling of history. Storytelling itself. </span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>He has a point. The sentence itself is a
story, with a beginning, a middle and an end. Something happens in a
sentence. Without subjects, there are no heroes or villains. Without verbs,
there is no action. Without objects, nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or
created. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Plus, simple sentences clarify complex
situations. ("Jesus wept.") </span></font><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><strong><b><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Since its
invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to chaos.</span></font></b></strong><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> It's the handle on the pitcher, a
tonic chord in music, a stair step chiseled in a mountainside.</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
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ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C8D159.C095E580--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:35:20 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought any
working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
of the article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
teaching about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented" the
> sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
> of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:42:01 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well, insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would otherwise occur.
I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead, it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group, and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business writing quite alien.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought any
working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
of the article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
teaching about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented" the
> sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
> of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:31:33 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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"U R teh uber-newb, d00d!" Oh, spare me!
That brings up a question about how BlackBerry technology will influence the
future of traditional business writing. Do any of you have
thoughts/predictions about that?
Linda
P.S. My spell checker had definite issues with that quote.
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like ":-)" are
a problem in current writing should be forced to try to read medieval
manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials (vellum anyone?),
make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind stuff for ink, blot
the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well, insular even for
monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the computer environment
prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would otherwise occur.
I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
given that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark
sentence boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause
complexes; writing systems may or may not orthographically mark these in
various ways.
All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead, it's
simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend not to
argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other students,
they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies (including
something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown that
students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're reading is
the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group, and that
emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R teh
uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's the kind of
thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business writing quite alien.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha Kolln
had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only thoughtful part of
it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of the sentence that's a
problem, but the general shallowness of conversation about it, including
those (Martha the main exception) in our "discipline" of English who weighed
in. I suspect they thought any working journalist could handle the topic,
but the results in this case are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk of the
article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct teaching
about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second
> to last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who "invented"
> the sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging
> -- seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending
> death of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
> human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
> middle and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects,
> there are no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action.
> Without objects, nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:31:52 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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B4Ugo, can one of y00ber d00ds (or uber d00desses) please give me Martha Kolln's email address?
.thanks.brad.18jun08.
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<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'><P>B4Ugo, can one of y00ber d00ds (or uber d00desses) please give me Martha Kolln's email address?</P>
<P> </P>
<P>.thanks.brad.18jun08.</P></td></tr></table><br>
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--0-874294789-1213824712=:68666--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:42:01 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Wollin, Edith" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SUMMARY: a subject-verb agreement question
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:44:34 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the Sentence
Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and, despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts. (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of sense.)
Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular, uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
--- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
(vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well,
insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would
otherwise occur.
I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given
that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing
systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
(including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown
that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group,
and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
writing quite alien.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
any
working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
of the article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
teaching about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
"invented" the
> sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
> of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'><P>I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: <STRONG>The History of the Sentence</STRONG><BR></P>
<P>Ian Robinson's <EM>The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the Reformation and the Enlightenment</EM> (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and, despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.</P>
<P>Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts. (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of sense.) </P>
<P>Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a character in Ben Jonson's <EM>Poetaster</EM>, and he does not mean that someone "is speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular, uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."</P><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM<BR><BR><PRE>Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
(vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well,
insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would
otherwise occur.
I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given
that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing
systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
(including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown
that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group,
and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
writing quite alien.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
any
working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
of the article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
teaching about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
"invented" the
> sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
> of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<p>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:48:29 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Über"-use?In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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In Ben Brantley's review of *Hamlet* in today's NY Times: "And Mr.
Waterston, who is today best known as the uber-prosecutor Jack McCoy on "Law
and Order," invests Polonius with real pathos as well as humor."
Jane Saral
Atlanta
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:44 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I missed the song, but I fear my ignorance of pop culture is profound.
>
> Herb
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MC Johnstone [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: June 17, 2008 10:24 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: "Über"-use
>
> STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> > About the only German use of "ueber" that most Americans are aware of is
> in the title of the national anthem, and that only because of the notoriety
> the Nazis gave it. So it gets borrowed with a high back rounded vowel and
> the sense "excessive(ly)".
> >
> > Herb
> Well, there is also the song, "California Uber Alles", circa 1979 by the
> Dead Kennedy's, a punk band from San Francisco. I see uber used as a
> kind of superlative on the net, but have no idea how mainstream it has
> become. A common sighting in the wild is "uber noob". This is mostly
> confined to the gaming community. This sense seems more like "super"
> than "excessively".
>
> Mark
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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<div>In Ben Brantley's review of <em>Hamlet</em> in today's NY Times: "And Mr. Waterston, who is today best known as the uber-prosecutor Jack McCoy on "Law and Order," invests Polonius with real pathos as well as humor."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jane Saral</div>
<div>Atlanta<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:44 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I missed the song, but I fear my ignorance of pop culture is profound.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>Herb<br><br>Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.<br>Emeritus Professor of English<br>Ball State University<br>Muncie, IN 47306<br><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>________________________________________<br>
</div>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of MC Johnstone [<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>]<br>Sent: June 17, 2008 10:24 AM<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: Re: "Über"-use<br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="Wj3C7c">STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:<br>> About the only German use of "ueber" that most Americans are aware of is in the title of the national anthem, and that only because of the notoriety the Nazis gave it. So it gets borrowed with a high back rounded vowel and the sense "excessive(ly)".<br>
><br>> Herb<br>Well, there is also the song, "California Uber Alles", circa 1979 by the<br>Dead Kennedy's, a punk band from San Francisco. I see uber used as a<br>kind of superlative on the net, but have no idea how mainstream it has<br>
become. A common sighting in the wild is "uber noob". This is mostly<br>confined to the gaming community. This sense seems more like "super"<br>than "excessively".<br><br>Mark<br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>
<a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
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<br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:49:45 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I'm not sure why I'm so obsessed with the origin of the sentence, but for anyone who's interested...
Here is one of the OED definitions of a sentence:
6. a. A series of words in connected speech or writing, forming the grammatically complete expression of a single thought; in popular use often (= PERIOD n. 10), such a portion of a composition or utterance as extends from one full stop to another. In Grammar, the verbal expression of a proposition, question, command, or request, containing normally a subject and a predicate (though either of these may be omitted by ellipsis).
In grammatical use, though not in popular language, a ˇsentence˘ may consist of a single word, as in L. algeo ˇI am cold˘, where the subject (= I) is expressed by the ending of the verb. English grammarians usually recognize three classes: simple sentences, complex sentences (which contain one or more subordinate clauses), and compound sentences (which have more than one subject or predicate).
1447 O. BOKENHAM Seyntys, Agnes 682 Fro sentence to sentence, I dar wele seyn, I hym haue folwyde euen by & by. 1526 Pilgr. Perf. (W. de W. 1531) 160 Euery lettre, syllable, worde, & sentence of his prayer & duty from the begynnynge to ye ende. 1538 ELYOT Dict., Tetracolon, a sentence hauyng .iiii. membres. 1600 SHAKES. A.Y.L. III. ii. 144 At euerie sentence end; Will I Rosalinda write. 1631 in Rymer Fdera XIX. 305 The Statute before mentioned, or any Clause, Sentence, Matter or Thing whatsoever therein conteyned. a1653 BINNING Princ. Chr. Relig. Wks. (1735) 27 There is some hidden Secret that you must search for, that is inclosed within the Covering of Words and Sentences. 1712 ADDISON Spect. No. 550 5 , I have so well preserved my Taciturnity that I do not remember to have violated it with three Sentences in the space of almost two Years. 1728 CHAMBERS Cycl. s.v., Every Sentence comprehends at least Three Words. 1748 RICHARDSON Clarissa VII. 177, I
would not lose a sentence that I could gain from lips so instructive. 1787 REID Let. to Gregory 26 Aug., In speech, the true natural unit is a sentence. 1819 SCOTT Ivanhoe iii, His displeasure was expressed in broken sentences. 1848 THACKERAY Van. Fair l, The combat, which we describe in a sentence or two, lasted for many weeks in poor Amelia's heart. 1870 JEVONS Elem. Logic vii. (1875) 61 What the logician calls a proposition the grammarian calls a sentence.
--- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
(vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well,
insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would
otherwise occur.
I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given
that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing
systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
(including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown
that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group,
and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
writing quite alien.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
any
working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
of the article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
teaching about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
"invented" the
> sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
> of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'><DIV id=yiv136315832>
<P>I'm not sure why I'm so obsessed with the origin of the sentence, but for anyone who's interested...</P>
<P><STRONG></STRONG> </P>
<P><STRONG>Here is one of the OED definitions of a sentence:</STRONG><STRONG></STRONG> </P>
<P><STRONG></STRONG> </P>
<P><STRONG>6. a.</STRONG> A series of words in connected speech or writing, forming the grammatically complete expression of a single thought; in popular use often (= <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=sentence&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=GFLm-in78Dd-10037&result_place=1&xrefword=period&ps=n." target=_blank rel=nofollow><SMALL><FONT size=2>PERIOD</FONT></SMALL></A> <I>n.</I> 10), such a portion of a composition or utterance as extends from one full stop to another. In <I>Grammar</I>, the verbal expression of a proposition, question, command, or request, containing normally a subject and a predicate (though either of these may be omitted by ellipsis).<A rel=nofollow name=50219954n3></A><BR> <FONT size=2><SMALL>In grammatical use, though not in popular language, a ˇsentence˘ may consist of a single word, as in L. <I>algeo</I> ˇI am cold˘, where
the subject (= I) is expressed by the ending of the verb. English grammarians usually recognize three classes: simple sentences, complex sentences (which contain one or more subordinate clauses), and compound sentences (which have more than one subject or predicate).</SMALL> </FONT></P>
<DIV class=qt><A rel=nofollow name=50219954q83></A><B>1447</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-b3.html#o-bokenham" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>O. B<SMALL><FONT size=2>OKENHAM</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Seyntys, Agnes</I> 682 Fro sentence to sentence, I dar wele seyn, I hym haue folwyde euen by & by. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q84></A><B>1526</B> <I>Pilgr. Perf.</I> (W. de W. 1531) 160 Euery lettre, syllable, worde, & sentence of his prayer & duty from the begynnynge to y<FONT size=2><SUP><SMALL>e</SMALL></SUP> ende. </FONT><A rel=nofollow name=50219954q85></A><B>1538</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-e.html#elyot" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>E<SMALL><FONT size=2>LYOT</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Dict.</I>, <I>Tetracolon</I>, a sentence hauyng .iiii. membres. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q86></A><B>1600</B> <A
href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-s2.html#shakes" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>S<FONT size=2><SMALL>HAKES</SMALL>.</FONT></FONT></A> <I>A.Y.L.</I> <FONT size=2><SMALL>III</SMALL>. ii. 144 At euerie sentence end; Will I Rosalinda write. </FONT><A rel=nofollow name=50219954q87></A><B>1631</B> in Rymer <I>F<IMG height=14 alt={oe} src="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/graphics/parser/gifs/spi/oe.gif" width=10 align=absBottom border=0>dera</I> XIX. 305 The Statute before mentioned, or any Clause, Sentence, Matter or Thing whatsoever therein conteyned. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q88></A><B><I>a</I>1653</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-b2.html#binning" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>B<SMALL><FONT size=2>INNING</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Princ. Chr. Relig.</I> Wks. (1735) 27 There is some hidden Secret that you must search for, that is inclosed within the Covering of Words and Sentences. <A
rel=nofollow name=50219954q89></A><B>1712</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-a.html#addison" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>A<SMALL><FONT size=2>DDISON</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Spect.</I> No. 550 <IMG height=14 alt={page} src="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/graphics/parser/gifs/sp/page.gif" width=12 align=absBottom border=0>5 , I have so well preserved my Taciturnity that I do not remember to have violated it with three Sentences in the space of almost two Years. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q90></A><B>1728</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-c2.html#chambers" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>C<SMALL><FONT size=2>HAMBERS</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Cycl.</I> s.v., Every Sentence comprehends at least Three Words. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q91></A><B>1748</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-r.html#richardson" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT
color=#002653>R<SMALL><FONT size=2>ICHARDSON</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Clarissa</I> VII. 177, I would not lose a sentence that I could gain from lips so instructive. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q92></A><B>1787</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-r.html#reid" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>R<SMALL><FONT size=2>EID</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Let. to Gregory</I> 26 Aug., In speech, the true natural unit is a sentence. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q93></A><B>1819</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-s.html#scott" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>S<SMALL><FONT size=2>COTT</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Ivanhoe</I> iii, His displeasure was expressed in broken sentences. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q94></A><B>1848</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-t.html#thackeray" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>T<SMALL><FONT size=2>HACKERAY</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A>
<I>Van. Fair</I> l, The combat, which we describe in a sentence or two, lasted for many weeks in poor Amelia's heart. <A rel=nofollow name=50219954q95></A><B>1870</B> <A href="http://proxy.bucks.edu:2069/help/bib/oed2-j.html#jevons" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT color=#002653>J<SMALL><FONT size=2>EVONS</FONT></SMALL></FONT></A> <I>Elem. Logic</I> vii. (1875) 61 What the logician calls a proposition the grammarian calls a sentence.</DIV>
<DIV class=qt> </DIV>
<DIV class=qt> </DIV>
<DIV class=qt><BR><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM<BR><BR><PRE>Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
(vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well,
insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would
otherwise occur.
I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given
that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing
systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
(including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown
that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group,
and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
writing quite alien.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
any
working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
of the article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
teaching about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
"invented" the
> sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
> of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1651918526-1213836585=:90106--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:01:58 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The OED supports the bit that Carol cites from Robinson: the earliest uses of the noun sentence date to the 13th century, and include both
"3. An authoritative decision; a judgement pronounced by a tribunal. {dag}<http://ezproxy.bradley.edu:2125/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/dag.gif> a. spec. = sentence of excommunication."
and
" {dag}<http://ezproxy.bradley.edu:2125/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/dag.gif> 7. a. The thought or meaning expressed, as distinguished from the wording; the sense, substance, or gist (of a passage, a book, etc.). Obs."
Etymologically, it comes from "L. sententia opinion, maxim, etc., irreg. (for *sentientia) f. sent {imac}<http://ezproxy.bradley.edu:2125/graphics/parser/gifs/mbi/imac.gif> re to feel, be of opinion."
Seth
Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Carol Morrison
Sent: Wed 6/18/2008 7:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the Sentence
Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and, despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts. (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of sense.)
Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular, uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
--- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
(vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well,
insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would
otherwise occur.
I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given
that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing
systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
(including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown
that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group,
and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
writing quite alien.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
any
working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
of the article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
teaching about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
"invented" the
> sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
> of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:44:10 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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boundary="_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5430F46A0E6BEEMAILBACKEND0_"
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Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description. In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons, etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures. The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other things.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the Sentence
Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and, despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts. (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of sense.)
Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular, uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
--- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
(vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well,
insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would
otherwise occur.
I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given
that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing
systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
(including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown
that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group,
and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
writing quite alien.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
Carol,
I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
any
working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
are comic.
The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
and
"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
of the article.
It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
teaching about language.
Craig >
Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
"invented" the
> sentence?
>
> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
> By Linton Weeks
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing.
> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
> of the English sentence.
> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
human
> communication: the sentence.
> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
> Storytelling itself.
> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle
> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,
> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
wept.")
> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Forty or so years ago I used to argue with
transformational-generative grammarians, and they were that then, that the
sentence, in particular the symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a
methodological choice. It represented a unit within which certain
relationships, structures, and constraints could be discussed without the
inconvenience of answering questions about discourse. This usually got us
into an argument about competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to
be a corollary of the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons, etc.,
sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken sentence
tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I was
teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad student as
native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into the syntax of
Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types and then started
working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate clauses and the
constraints that apply to complex sentence structures. The Pashto speaker
paused at one point and said, “You can put together a sentence like that
in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell stories, argue with
each other, talk about affairs of their families and communities, they use
simple sentences.” That just drove home further for me the
observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on medium, genre,
discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other things.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol
Morrison<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-06-18 20:45<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p>I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: <strong>The History of
the Sentence</strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Ian Robinson's <em>The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
Reformation and the Enlightenment</em> (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose writing,
there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ well-formed
sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts. (Robinson is not an
opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are wonderful; but he recognizes
that it is not the only possible unit of sense.) <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following
the classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as syntactical
unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou
speakest sentences" says a character in Ben Jonson's <em>Poetaster</em>,
and he does not mean that someone "is speaking dramatically but that he
is speaking sense and, in particular, uttering weighty, authoritative
dicta."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
--- On <b>Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <i><[log in to unmask]></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>From: Spruiell, William C
<[log in to unmask]><br>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks (well,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that would<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>otherwise occur. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have shown<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age group,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>writing quite alien. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Central Michigan University<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Carol,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>any<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>are comic.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>"brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>of the article.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>teaching about language.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Craig ><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>"invented" the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> sentence?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> By Linton Weeks<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Washington Post Staff Writer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> seeping into academic writing.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> of the English sentence.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>human<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> communication: the sentence.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Storytelling itself.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a middle<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without objects,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>wept.")<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> step chiseled in a mountainside.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre></td>
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5430F46A0E6BEEMAILBACKEND0_--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:18:48 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
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Spruiell, William C wrote:
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
Arabic is another example of a language that does not clearly demarcate
what sentence boundaries. Until the modern period, Arabic had no
punctuation marks at all, and none appear in the Quran. The frequent
appearance of verbless sentences in Arabic may also complicate attempts
to define the Arabic sentence. I teach English to Arabs and spend a lot
of time trying to get students to write in "sentences", very loosely
described as a string of no more than ten words containing a noun and a
verb. That "rule" usually works and establishes a point from which we
can proceed. At the very least, it prevents students from slipping into
Joycean mode, which can be quite inventive but, unfortunately, violates
the canon of the good sentence imposed by EFL grammars.
Mark
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:37:41 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
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Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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>
>
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> at:
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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> leave the list"
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:16:16 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Koine Greek was similar, and, of course, there was little punctuation at that time. Bible translators generally work from the current scholarly editions of the Greek text, which are carefully punctuated, but if one looks at, for example, the letters of Paul, deciding what the boundaries of a sentence are is neither easy nor obvious. This is true of other ancient authors as well, and in any language where the early writing system didn't punctuate.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MC Johnstone [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 19, 2008 3:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
Arabic is another example of a language that does not clearly demarcate
what sentence boundaries. Until the modern period, Arabic had no
punctuation marks at all, and none appear in the Quran. The frequent
appearance of verbless sentences in Arabic may also complicate attempts
to define the Arabic sentence. I teach English to Arabs and spend a lot
of time trying to get students to write in "sentences", very loosely
described as a string of no more than ten words containing a noun and a
verb. That "rule" usually works and establishes a point from which we
can proceed. At the very least, it prevents students from slipping into
Joycean mode, which can be quite inventive but, unfortunately, violates
the canon of the good sentence imposed by EFL grammars.
Mark
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:31:01 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Craig,
I agree, and we have to distinguish between written sentences in several registers and spoken sentences, also in several registers. Ceritanly sentence structure varies with genre, and, in writing in particular, what's perceived as a good sentence has changed over time.
You missed an opportunity for a great compound noun: text messaging creep-over. Just think what the author of that Washington Post article could have done with the notion.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 19, 2008 8:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:45:26 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Amanda Godley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
To echo Craig's observation -- I just completed an analysis of
grammar/conventions/usage errors in about 200 high school students' timed
academic essays and found only 11 instances of text-messaging language. I
also gave the students a survey about their use of text messaging. 76% of
students reported that they own a cell phone and about 50% reported sending
more than 15 text messages per day (36% reported sending more than 30 text
messages per day).
It seems as if the high school students in my study engage in texting quite
a bit but still understand that it is not appropriate/effective in academic
writing.
Amanda
On 6/19/08 8:37 AM, "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Herb,
> A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
> sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
> It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
> unruly riffraff.
> The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
> accomplish our communally evolving goals.
> Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
> to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
> read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
> text-messaging creeping over.
>
> Craig>
>
> Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
>> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
>> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
>> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
>> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
>> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
>> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
>> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
>> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
>> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
>> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
>> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
>> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
>> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
>> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
>> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
>> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
>> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
>> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
>> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for
>> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
>> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
>> things.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
>> Sentence
>>
>> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
>> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
>> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
>> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>>
>> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
>> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
>> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
>> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
>> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
>> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
>> sense.)
>>
>> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
>> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
>> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
>> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
>> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
>> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
>> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is
>> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
>> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>>
>> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>>
>> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>>
>> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>>
>> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>>
>> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>>
>> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
>> (well,
>>
>> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>>
>> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
>> would
>>
>> otherwise occur.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>>
>> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
>>
>> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
>> given
>>
>> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>>
>> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
>> writing
>>
>> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>>
>>
>>
>> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>>
>> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>>
>> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>>
>> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>>
>> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>>
>> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>>
>> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>>
>> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
>> shown
>>
>> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>>
>> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
>> group,
>>
>> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>>
>> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>>
>> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>>
>> writing quite alien.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>>
>> Dept. of English
>>
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> Carol,
>>
>> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>>
>> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>>
>> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>>
>> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>>
>> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>>
>> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>>
>> any
>>
>> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>>
>> are comic.
>>
>> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>>
>> and
>>
>> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>>
>> of the article.
>>
>> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>>
>> teaching about language.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig >
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>>
>>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>>
>>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>>
>> "invented" the
>>
>>> sentence?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>>
>>> By Linton Weeks
>>
>>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>>
>>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>>
>>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>>
>>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>>
>>> seeping into academic writing.
>>
>>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>>
>>> of the English sentence.
>>
>>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>>
>>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>>
>> human
>>
>>> communication: the sentence.
>>
>>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>>
>>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>>
>>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>>
>>> Storytelling itself.
>>
>>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>>> middle
>>
>>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>>
>>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>>> objects,
>>
>>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>>
>>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>>
>> wept.")
>>
>>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>>
>>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>>
>>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>> interface
>>
>>> at:
>>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Amanda Godley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
English Education
University of Pittsburgh
5111 Wesley W. Posvar Hall
Pittsburgh, PA 15260
412-648-7313
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:42:44 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Our students may not know the term "register," until we explain it to them, but I find most of them, at least at the college level, have a pretty good understanding that the appropriateness of writing choices is sensitive to the context they're writing in.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amanda Godley
Sent: 2008-06-19 11:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To echo Craig's observation -- I just completed an analysis of
grammar/conventions/usage errors in about 200 high school students' timed
academic essays and found only 11 instances of text-messaging language. I
also gave the students a survey about their use of text messaging. 76% of
students reported that they own a cell phone and about 50% reported sending
more than 15 text messages per day (36% reported sending more than 30 text
messages per day).
It seems as if the high school students in my study engage in texting quite
a bit but still understand that it is not appropriate/effective in academic
writing.
Amanda
On 6/19/08 8:37 AM, "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Herb,
> A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
> sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
> It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
> unruly riffraff.
> The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
> accomplish our communally evolving goals.
> Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
> to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
> read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
> text-messaging creeping over.
>
> Craig>
>
> Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
>> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
>> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
>> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
>> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
>> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
>> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
>> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
>> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
>> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
>> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
>> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
>> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
>> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
>> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
>> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
>> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
>> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
>> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
>> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for
>> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
>> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
>> things.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
>> Sentence
>>
>> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
>> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
>> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
>> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>>
>> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
>> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
>> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
>> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
>> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
>> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
>> sense.)
>>
>> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
>> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
>> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
>> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
>> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
>> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
>> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is
>> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
>> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>>
>> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>>
>> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>>
>> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>>
>> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>>
>> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>>
>> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
>> (well,
>>
>> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>>
>> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
>> would
>>
>> otherwise occur.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>>
>> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
>>
>> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
>> given
>>
>> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>>
>> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
>> writing
>>
>> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>>
>>
>>
>> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>>
>> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>>
>> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>>
>> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>>
>> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>>
>> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>>
>> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>>
>> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
>> shown
>>
>> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>>
>> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
>> group,
>>
>> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>>
>> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>>
>> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>>
>> writing quite alien.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>>
>> Dept. of English
>>
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> Carol,
>>
>> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>>
>> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>>
>> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>>
>> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>>
>> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>>
>> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>>
>> any
>>
>> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>>
>> are comic.
>>
>> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>>
>> and
>>
>> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>>
>> of the article.
>>
>> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>>
>> teaching about language.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig >
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>>
>>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>>
>>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>>
>> "invented" the
>>
>>> sentence?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>>
>>> By Linton Weeks
>>
>>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>>
>>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>>
>>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>>
>>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>>
>>> seeping into academic writing.
>>
>>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>>
>>> of the English sentence.
>>
>>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>>
>>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>>
>> human
>>
>>> communication: the sentence.
>>
>>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>>
>>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>>
>>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>>
>>> Storytelling itself.
>>
>>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>>> middle
>>
>>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>>
>>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>>> objects,
>>
>>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>>
>>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>>
>> wept.")
>>
>>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>>
>>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>>
>>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>> interface
>>
>>> at:
>>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Amanda Godley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
English Education
University of Pittsburgh
5111 Wesley W. Posvar Hall
Pittsburgh, PA 15260
412-648-7313
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:30:03 +0100
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dr E.L. Wright" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1
All,
As a theorist on the origin of language, my immediate comment is that, if
we substitute 'statement' (and question and command) for sentence, then the
problem vanishes. An informative statement, in which one person updates
another about some portion of the real about them, deals, if the hearer
accepts it, in a transformation of understanding. It does not really matter
much how the update takes place: it can even work with a gesture or facial
expression. However, the core of all language is this need to transform
understanding.
Gadamer and Collingwood have both drawn attention to the fact that, because
of this, every statement can be seen as an answer to a question, and what
that question is will transform what the statement actually means. Take
''The cat is on the mat', and check it against 'What is on the mat?',
'Where is the cat?', 'What is the relation of the cat to the mat?', and
even 'Which cat is on the mat?' where the answer is 'THE cat', that is, the
one we have just been talking about. This is why statements can shrink to a
few or even single words, for the hearer who gets the answer 'On the mat'
to the question "Where is the cat?' does not need a reminder of what it is
he or she wanted updating on.
So there is no possibility of the death of the STATEMENT: otherwise we
would cease to communicate! The original complainant was obviously troubled
about sentence structure and its relation to punctuation, as Bill remarked.
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
Tel.: 00 - 44 - (0)1223 - 350256
Email: [log in to unmask]
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 06:30:11 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I guess what piqued my curiosity about the Washington Post article was the use of the word "invention" as the method of the sentence's origin. It's not that I think that the sentence was fabricated in a lab one afternoon, or invented in the way that Marconi invented the wireless telegraph or that Gutenberg invented the movable-type printing press, but at some point, somebody or bodies must have proclaimed: "Aha! The sentence! What a beautiful grammatical unit...Henceforth, mankind shall write in sentences!" (Or at least English-speaking college freshman will write in sentences). Anyway, after reading the stunning tribute and eulogy to the sentence, I thought that if people are going to speak of it posthumously, it would be nice to commemorate its birth (or standardization in English grammar). I am interested in finding out when people began to write in "sentences" or what we call "sentences."
hasEML = false;
--- On Thu, 6/19/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:37 AM
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put
together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home
further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following
the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the
Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou
speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone
"is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations
like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try
to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain
the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark
sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions,
but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation
tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from
other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U
R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if
that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they
thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries"
ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the
bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second
to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging
--
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending
death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component
of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there
are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a
stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
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>
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> at:
>
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--0-37371069-1213968611=:66953
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'><DIV id=yiv303497631>I guess what piqued my curiosity about the <EM>Washington Post</EM> article was the use of the word "invention" as the method of the sentence's origin. It's not that I think that the sentence was fabricated in a lab one afternoon, or invented in the way that Marconi invented the wireless telegraph or that Gutenberg invented the movable-type printing press, but at some point, somebody or bodies must have proclaimed: "Aha! The sentence! What a beautiful grammatical unit...Henceforth, mankind shall write in sentences!" (Or at least English-speaking college freshman will write in sentences). Anyway, after reading the stunning tribute and eulogy to the sentence, I thought that if people are going to speak of it posthumously, it would be nice to commemorate its birth (or standardization in English grammar). I am interested in
finding out when people began to write in "sentences" or what we call "sentences." </DIV>
<!cript type=text/javascript>
hasEML = false;
</SCRIPT>
<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 6/19/08, Craig Hancock <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:37 AM<BR><BR><PRE>Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put
together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home
further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following
the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the
Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou
speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone
"is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations
like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try
to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain
the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark
sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions,
but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation
tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from
other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U
R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if
that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they
thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries"
ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the
bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second
to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging
--
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending
death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component
of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there
are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a
stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
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>
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>
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--0-37371069-1213968611=:66953--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:11:31 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "R. Michael Medley (GLS)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: text messaging creep-over?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Washington Post staff writer Linton Weeks seemingly believes everything he
reads:
"In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
seeping into academic writing."
"Text messaging creep-over"? Not a sign of it as far as I can tell. I
just returned from reading more than 700 Advanced Placement English
language and composition essays written by students from across the
nation. I saw plenty of inarticulateness but absolutely no sign
whatsoever of "text messaging creep-over" into academic writing.
Apparently, high school students, even those who score rather low on their
essays (4.5 is about the average score on a scale of 9), know to keep
features of text messaging register out of their academic writing.
R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802
[log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:33:09 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: text messaging creep-over?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I was interviewed a year or so ago by an AP writer who read a book I wrote on spelling, and he asked if these text-messaging spellings were creeping over into college writing. I think he wanted to hear me say "hell yeah and I'm not going to stand for it!" However, as I would say today to him, I do not believe this is a widespread problem with most college students, who seem able in their formal writing to understand they need to avoid txt-spellings and abbreviations.
However.....my wife who teaches sixth grade has seen an increasing number of the creep-over of these spellings. Most seem to know such language is not formal; they just say it's 'easy' to use them. Yet quite a number have no idea that txt-spellings are not considered correct in formal writing.
Larry Beason
>>> "R. Michael Medley (GLS)" <[log in to unmask]> 06/20/08 9:11 AM >>>
Washington Post staff writer Linton Weeks seemingly believes everything he
reads:
"In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
seeping into academic writing."
"Text messaging creep-over"? Not a sign of it as far as I can tell. I
just returned from reading more than 700 Advanced Placement English
language and composition essays written by students from across the
nation. I saw plenty of inarticulateness but absolutely no sign
whatsoever of "text messaging creep-over" into academic writing.
Apparently, high school students, even those who score rather low on their
essays (4.5 is about the average score on a scale of 9), know to keep
features of text messaging register out of their academic writing.
R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802
[log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:35:06 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: text messaging creep-over?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ironically, there might be more creep-over into professors' comments than there is into students' papers; some professors use "emoticons" to soften the occasional comment.
Brian
Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of English
Director of the Writing Center
St. Mary’s College of Maryland
Montgomery Hall 50
18952 E. Fisher Rd.
St. Mary’s City, Maryland
20686
240-895-4242
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of R. Michael Medley (GLS)
Sent: Fri 6/20/2008 10:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: text messaging creep-over?
Washington Post staff writer Linton Weeks seemingly believes everything he
reads:
"In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
seeping into academic writing."
"Text messaging creep-over"? Not a sign of it as far as I can tell. I
just returned from reading more than 700 Advanced Placement English
language and composition essays written by students from across the
nation. I saw plenty of inarticulateness but absolutely no sign
whatsoever of "text messaging creep-over" into academic writing.
Apparently, high school students, even those who score rather low on their
essays (4.5 is about the average score on a scale of 9), know to keep
features of text messaging register out of their academic writing.
R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802
[log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:23:29 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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You'll need to define your last question. What do you mean by beginning "to write in 'sentences' or what we call 'sentences'"? If you mean a form like the sentence has today in many written languages, then you're looking at the late medieval period. But if you're at "sentence" as a way of expressing a limited block of meaning within a context that shapes it, then people started writing in sentences as soon as they started writing anything more richly structured than lists.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-06-20 09:30
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
I guess what piqued my curiosity about the Washington Post article was the use of the word "invention" as the method of the sentence's origin. It's not that I think that the sentence was fabricated in a lab one afternoon, or invented in the way that Marconi invented the wireless telegraph or that Gutenberg invented the movable-type printing press, but at some point, somebody or bodies must have proclaimed: "Aha! The sentence! What a beautiful grammatical unit...Henceforth, mankind shall write in sentences!" (Or at least English-speaking college freshman will write in sentences). Anyway, after reading the stunning tribute and eulogy to the sentence, I thought that if people are going to speak of it posthumously, it would be nice to commemorate its birth (or standardization in English grammar). I am interested in finding out when people began to write in "sentences" or what we call "sentences."
--- On Thu, 6/19/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:37 AM
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put
together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home
further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following
the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the
Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou
speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone
"is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations
like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try
to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain
the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark
sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions,
but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation
tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from
other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U
R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if
that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they
thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries"
ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the
bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second
to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging
--
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending
death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component
of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there
are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a
stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You’ll need to define your last question. What do you mean by beginning
“to write in ‘sentences’ or what we call ‘sentences’”? If you mean a form like
the sentence has today in many written languages, then you’re looking at the
late medieval period. But if you’re at “sentence” as a way of expressing a
limited block of meaning within a context that shapes it, then people started
writing in sentences as soon as they started writing anything more richly
structured than lists.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol
Morrison<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-06-20 09:30<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div id=yiv303497631>
<p class=MsoNormal>I guess what piqued my curiosity about the <em>Washington
Post</em> article was the use of the word "invention" as
the method of the sentence's origin. It's not that I think that the sentence
was fabricated in a lab one afternoon, or invented in the way that
Marconi invented the wireless telegraph or that Gutenberg invented the movable-type
printing press, but at some point, somebody or bodies must have proclaimed:
"Aha! The sentence! What a beautiful grammatical unit...Henceforth,
mankind shall write in sentences!" (Or at least English-speaking college
freshman will write in sentences). Anyway, after reading the stunning tribute
and eulogy to the sentence, I thought that if people are going to speak of it
posthumously, it would be nice to commemorate its birth (or
standardization in English grammar). I am interested in finding out when
people began to write in "sentences" or what we call
"sentences." <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
--- On <b>Thu, 6/19/08, Craig Hancock <i><[log in to unmask]></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>From: Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]><br>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:37 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Herb,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>unruly riffraff.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>accomplish our communally evolving goals.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>text-messaging creeping over.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Craig><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>together a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>further for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> things.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Herb<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Sentence<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> sense.)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Middle Ages, but<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>speakest sentences" says a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>"is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>like<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> (well,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> would<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> otherwise occur.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> given<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>sentence<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> writing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>but<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>tend<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>other<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> shown<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> group,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>R<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>that's<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> writing quite alien.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Central Michigan University<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Carol,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>thought<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> any<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> are comic.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ago<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>bulk<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> of the article.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> teaching about language.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Craig ><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> "invented" the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> sentence?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> By Linton Weeks<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> Washington Post Staff Writer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> seeping into academic writing.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>death<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> of the English sentence.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> human<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> communication: the sentence.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> Storytelling itself.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>>> middle<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>are<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>>> objects,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> wept.")<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>stair<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> step chiseled in a mountainside.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></pre></td>
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5430F46A0E6D3EMAILBACKEND0_--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:46:53 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I would agree - and then add that, depending on what is meant by "sentence"
we might have to look at the people who deliberately added a lot of
Latinized structures to English and called it "formal grammar."
I think, generally, the commonly referred to "sentence" is probably that
thing people tried to formalize in grammar books, once such things existed.
I forget who referred to "statements" versus "sentences," but that was a
good point - we've always spoken in statements (or, at least, we have since
we've had language), and once we began writing we moved from lists to
statements fairly quickly. But we had no formalized "grammar," per se, for
many centuries after that, which might mean that the "sentence" is a
relatively new adoption. So much depends on point of view!
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
You'll need to define your last question. What do you mean by beginning "to
write in 'sentences' or what we call 'sentences'"? If you mean a form like
the sentence has today in many written languages, then you're looking at the
late medieval period. But if you're at "sentence" as a way of expressing a
limited block of meaning within a context that shapes it, then people
started writing in sentences as soon as they started writing anything more
richly structured than lists.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-06-20 09:30
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
I guess what piqued my curiosity about the Washington Post article was the
use of the word "invention" as the method of the sentence's origin. It's not
that I think that the sentence was fabricated in a lab one afternoon, or
invented in the way that Marconi invented the wireless telegraph or that
Gutenberg invented the movable-type printing press, but at some point,
somebody or bodies must have proclaimed: "Aha! The sentence! What a
beautiful grammatical unit...Henceforth, mankind shall write in sentences!"
(Or at least English-speaking college freshman will write in sentences).
Anyway, after reading the stunning tribute and eulogy to the sentence, I
thought that if people are going to speak of it posthumously, it would be
nice to commemorate its birth (or standardization in English grammar). I am
interested in finding out when people began to write in "sentences" or what
we call "sentences."
--- On Thu, 6/19/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:37 AM
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put
together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home
further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following
the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the
Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou
speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone
"is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations
like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try
to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain
the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark
sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions,
but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation
tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from
other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U
R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if
that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they
thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries"
ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the
bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second
to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging
--
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending
death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component
of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there
are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a
stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would agree – and then add that,
depending on what is meant by “sentence” we might have to look at
the people who deliberately added a lot of Latinized structures to English and
called it “formal grammar.” <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think, generally, the commonly referred
to “sentence” is probably that thing people tried to formalize in
grammar books, once such things existed. I forget who referred to “statements”
versus “sentences,” but that was a good point – we’ve
always spoken in statements (or, at least, we have since we’ve had
language), and once we began writing we moved from lists to statements fairly
quickly. But we had no formalized “grammar,” per se, for many
centuries after that, which might mean that the “sentence” is a
relatively new adoption. So much depends on point of view!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-patty <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, June 20, 2008 11:23
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: The Death of the
Sentence?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>You’ll need to
define your last question. What do you mean by beginning “to write
in ‘sentences’ or what we call ‘sentences’”?
If you mean a form like the sentence has today in many written languages, then
you’re looking at the late medieval period. But if you’re at “sentence”
as a way of expressing a limited block of meaning within a context that shapes
it, then people started writing in sentences as soon as they started writing
anything more richly structured than lists.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>Carol Morrison<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-06-20 09:30<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: The Death of the
Sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div id=yiv303497631>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I guess what piqued my curiosity about the <em><i><font
face="Times New Roman">Washington Post</font></i></em> article was
the use of the word "invention" as the method of the
sentence's origin. It's not that I think that the sentence was fabricated in
a lab one afternoon, or invented in the way that Marconi invented the
wireless telegraph or that Gutenberg invented the movable-type printing
press, but at some point, somebody or bodies must have proclaimed: "Aha!
The sentence! What a beautiful grammatical unit...Henceforth, mankind shall
write in sentences!" (Or at least English-speaking college freshman will
write in sentences). Anyway, after reading the stunning tribute and eulogy to
the sentence, I thought that if people are going to speak of it posthumously,
it would be nice to commemorate its birth (or standardization in English
grammar). I am interested in finding out when people began to write in
"sentences" or what we call "sentences." <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Thu, 6/19/08, Craig Hancock <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><[log in to unmask]></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>From: Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]><br>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:37 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Herb,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>unruly riffraff.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>accomplish our communally evolving goals.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>text-messaging creeping over.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Craig><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>together a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>further for<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> things.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> From: <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Reformation and the Enlightenment (<st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Cambridge</st1:place></st1:City>, 1998) is a fascinating<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> sense.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Middle Ages, but<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>speakest sentences" says a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"is<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>like<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> (well,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> would<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> otherwise occur.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> given<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>sentence<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> writing<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>but<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>tend<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>other<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> shown<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> group,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>R<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that's<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> writing quite alien.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Central</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Michigan</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> From: <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To: [log in to unmask]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Carol,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>thought<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> any<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> are comic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ago<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>bulk<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> of the article.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> teaching about language.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Craig ><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> "invented" the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> By Linton Weeks<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Washington</st1:place></st1:State> Post Staff Writer<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>--<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> seeping into academic writing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>death<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> of the English sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> human<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> communication: the sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> Storytelling itself.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> middle<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>are<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> objects,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> wept.")<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>stair<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> step chiseled in a mountainside.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> interface<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>interface<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>interface<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>interface<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>interface<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Calibri'><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C8D2CB.5586C9B0--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:04:25 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
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--____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:23:30 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:06:15 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 18 Jun 2008 to 19 Jun 2008 (#2008-137)
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I am nescient of the concept of the sentence in Koine Greek--
the medieval language with which I am most familiar. The modern
editors may have added punctuation but word rearrangement was
not appropriate. Almost all 'sentences' in the Greek text of
the New Testament make perfect sense; those that do not require
only an understanding of the idiomatic structure. I have not
read Hebrew or any other non-IndoEuropean language in facsimiles;
I have read facsimiles in Medieval English, French, Spanish, and
German: the sentences made sense. I was not reading facsimiles
in Latin and Classical Greek, but the 'sentences' made sense--
even without a verb: "The sea all around and all around the sea."
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 18 Jun 2008 to 19 Jun 2008 (#2008-137)
There are 6 messages totalling 1705 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. The Death of the Sentence? (6)
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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:18:48 +0300
From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
given that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark
sentence boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause
complexes; writing systems may or may not orthographically mark these in
various ways.
Arabic is another example of a language that does not clearly demarcate
what sentence boundaries. Until the modern period, Arabic had no
punctuation marks at all, and none appear in the Quran. The frequent
appearance of verbless sentences in Arabic may also complicate attempts
to define the Arabic sentence. I teach English to Arabs and spend a lot
of time trying to get students to write in "sentences", very loosely
described as a string of no more than ten words containing a noun and a
verb. That "rule" usually works and establishes a point from which we
can proceed. At the very least, it prevents students from slipping into
Joycean mode, which can be quite inventive but, unfortunately, violates
the canon of the good sentence imposed by EFL grammars.
Mark
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:37:41 -0400
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:16:16 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Koine Greek was similar, and, of course, there was little punctuation at that time. Bible translators generally work from the current scholarly editions of the Greek text, which are carefully punctuated, but if one looks at, for example, the letters of Paul, deciding what the boundaries of a sentence are is neither easy nor obvious. This is true of other ancient authors as well, and in any language where the early writing system didn't punctuate.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MC Johnstone [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 19, 2008 3:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, given that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; writing systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
Arabic is another example of a language that does not clearly demarcate
what sentence boundaries. Until the modern period, Arabic had no
punctuation marks at all, and none appear in the Quran. The frequent
appearance of verbless sentences in Arabic may also complicate attempts
to define the Arabic sentence. I teach English to Arabs and spend a lot
of time trying to get students to write in "sentences", very loosely
described as a string of no more than ten words containing a noun and a
verb. That "rule" usually works and establishes a point from which we
can proceed. At the very least, it prevents students from slipping into
Joycean mode, which can be quite inventive but, unfortunately, violates
the canon of the good sentence imposed by EFL grammars.
Mark
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:31:01 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Craig,
I agree, and we have to distinguish between written sentences in several registers and spoken sentences, also in several registers. Ceritanly sentence structure varies with genre, and, in writing in particular, what's perceived as a good sentence has changed over time.
You missed an opportunity for a great compound noun: text messaging creep-over. Just think what the author of that Washington Post article could have done with the notion.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 19, 2008 8:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:45:26 -0400
From: Amanda Godley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To echo Craig's observation -- I just completed an analysis of
grammar/conventions/usage errors in about 200 high school students' timed
academic essays and found only 11 instances of text-messaging language. I
also gave the students a survey about their use of text messaging. 76% of
students reported that they own a cell phone and about 50% reported sending
more than 15 text messages per day (36% reported sending more than 30 text
messages per day).
It seems as if the high school students in my study engage in texting quite
a bit but still understand that it is not appropriate/effective in academic
writing.
Amanda
On 6/19/08 8:37 AM, "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Herb,
> A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
> sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
> It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
> unruly riffraff.
> The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
> accomplish our communally evolving goals.
> Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
> to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
> read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
> text-messaging creeping over.
>
> Craig>
>
> Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
>> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular
the
>> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
>> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
>> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
>> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
>> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
>> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
>> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
>> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the
spoken
>> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
>> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
>> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
>> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
>> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
>> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
>> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
>> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
>> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
>> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further
for
>> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
>> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
>> things.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
>> Sentence
>>
>> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
>> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
>> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation,
and,
>> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>>
>> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in
our
>> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
>> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
>> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
>> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
>> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
>> sense.)
>>
>> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
>> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
>> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
>> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
>> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
>> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
>> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone
"is
>> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
>> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>>
>> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>>
>> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>>
>> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>>
>> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>>
>> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill,
grind
>>
>> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
>> (well,
>>
>> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>>
>> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
>> would
>>
>> otherwise occur.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>>
>> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain
the
>>
>> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
>> given
>>
>> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>>
>> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
>> writing
>>
>> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>>
>>
>>
>> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>>
>> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>>
>> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>>
>> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>>
>> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>>
>> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>>
>> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>>
>> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
>> shown
>>
>> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>>
>> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
>> group,
>>
>> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>>
>> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>>
>> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>>
>> writing quite alien.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>>
>> Dept. of English
>>
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> Carol,
>>
>> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>>
>> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>>
>> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>>
>> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>>
>> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>>
>> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>>
>> any
>>
>> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>>
>> are comic.
>>
>> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>>
>> and
>>
>> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>>
>> of the article.
>>
>> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>>
>> teaching about language.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig >
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>>
>>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>>
>>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>>
>> "invented" the
>>
>>> sentence?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>>
>>> By Linton Weeks
>>
>>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>>
>>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>>
>>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>>
>>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>>
>>> seeping into academic writing.
>>
>>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>>
>>> of the English sentence.
>>
>>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>>
>>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>>
>> human
>>
>>> communication: the sentence.
>>
>>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>>
>>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>>
>>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>>
>>> Storytelling itself.
>>
>>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>>> middle
>>
>>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>>
>>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>>> objects,
>>
>>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>>
>>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>>
>> wept.")
>>
>>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>>
>>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>>
>>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>> interface
>>
>>> at:
>>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Amanda Godley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
English Education
University of Pittsburgh
5111 Wesley W. Posvar Hall
Pittsburgh, PA 15260
412-648-7313
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:42:44 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Our students may not know the term "register," until we explain it to them, but I find most of them, at least at the college level, have a pretty good understanding that the appropriateness of writing choices is sensitive to the context they're writing in.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amanda Godley
Sent: 2008-06-19 11:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To echo Craig's observation -- I just completed an analysis of
grammar/conventions/usage errors in about 200 high school students' timed
academic essays and found only 11 instances of text-messaging language. I
also gave the students a survey about their use of text messaging. 76% of
students reported that they own a cell phone and about 50% reported sending
more than 15 text messages per day (36% reported sending more than 30 text
messages per day).
It seems as if the high school students in my study engage in texting quite
a bit but still understand that it is not appropriate/effective in academic
writing.
Amanda
On 6/19/08 8:37 AM, "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Herb,
> A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
> sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
> It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
> unruly riffraff.
> The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
> accomplish our communally evolving goals.
> Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
> to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
> read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
> text-messaging creeping over.
>
> Craig>
>
> Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
>> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
>> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
>> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
>> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
>> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
>> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
>> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
>> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
>> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
>> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
>> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
>> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
>> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
>> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
>> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
>> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
>> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
>> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
>> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for
>> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
>> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
>> things.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
>> Sentence
>>
>> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
>> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
>> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
>> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>>
>> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
>> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
>> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
>> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
>> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
>> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
>> sense.)
>>
>> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
>> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
>> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
>> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
>> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
>> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
>> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is
>> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
>> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>>
>> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>>
>> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>>
>> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>>
>> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>>
>> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>>
>> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
>> (well,
>>
>> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>>
>> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
>> would
>>
>> otherwise occur.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>>
>> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
>>
>> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
>> given
>>
>> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>>
>> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
>> writing
>>
>> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>>
>>
>>
>> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>>
>> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>>
>> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>>
>> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>>
>> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>>
>> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>>
>> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>>
>> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
>> shown
>>
>> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>>
>> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
>> group,
>>
>> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>>
>> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>>
>> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>>
>> writing quite alien.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>>
>> Dept. of English
>>
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> Carol,
>>
>> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>>
>> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>>
>> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>>
>> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>>
>> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>>
>> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>>
>> any
>>
>> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>>
>> are comic.
>>
>> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>>
>> and
>>
>> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>>
>> of the article.
>>
>> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>>
>> teaching about language.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig >
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>>
>>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>>
>>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>>
>> "invented" the
>>
>>> sentence?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>>
>>> By Linton Weeks
>>
>>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>>
>>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>>
>>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>>
>>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>>
>>> seeping into academic writing.
>>
>>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>>
>>> of the English sentence.
>>
>>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>>
>>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>>
>> human
>>
>>> communication: the sentence.
>>
>>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>>
>>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>>
>>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>>
>>> Storytelling itself.
>>
>>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>>> middle
>>
>>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>>
>>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>>> objects,
>>
>>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>>
>>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>>
>> wept.")
>>
>>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>>
>>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>>
>>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>> interface
>>
>>> at:
>>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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>>
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>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at:
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>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--
Amanda Godley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
English Education
University of Pittsburgh
5111 Wesley W. Posvar Hall
Pittsburgh, PA 15260
412-648-7313
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 18 Jun 2008 to 19 Jun 2008 (#2008-137)
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:44:26 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:30:21 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: text messaging creep-over?
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
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I commonly find two classes of *possible* creep-over in student writing.
One is only in student emails: absence of capital letters and conversion
of "you" to "u." My students usually discriminate quite well between
"classroom writing" and "email," but not between "casual email" and
"business/formal email." I have had a couple of students who
spectacularly fuzzed the boundaries between informal email and formal
writing (hence my earlier "d00d" reference) but a couple of memorable
examples doesn't make a trend.
The other class of items is one I only suspect is being supported by
text-messaging: homonym errors. I don't think people where I currently
live have pronounced "which" and "witch" differently for generations,
but ten years ago, I think more of them distinguished them in writing.
I'm frequently getting "were" for "where" in student papers. Homonym
errors are, of course, by no means new, but regularly *seeing* text that
routinely uses "were" for both "where" and "were" has to have an effect.
If you read only material that's published (newspapers, novels, etc.)
that type of conflation usually doesn't make it past an editor, so you
get used to seeing the difference in text even if (as with which/witch
for many people) there's no difference in pronunciation. It won't be an
emergency if some of these spelling distinctions disappear entirely --
it's happened before, and many times -- but there it is.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of O'Sullivan, Brian P
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: text messaging creep-over?
Ironically, there might be more creep-over into professors' comments
than there is into students' papers; some professors use "emoticons" to
soften the occasional comment.
Brian
Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of English
Director of the Writing Center
St. Mary's College of Maryland
Montgomery Hall 50
18952 E. Fisher Rd.
St. Mary's City, Maryland
20686
240-895-4242
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of R.
Michael Medley (GLS)
Sent: Fri 6/20/2008 10:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: text messaging creep-over?
Washington Post staff writer Linton Weeks seemingly believes everything
he
reads:
"In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
seeping into academic writing."
"Text messaging creep-over"? Not a sign of it as far as I can tell. I
just returned from reading more than 700 Advanced Placement English
language and composition essays written by students from across the
nation. I saw plenty of inarticulateness but absolutely no sign
whatsoever of "text messaging creep-over" into academic writing.
Apparently, high school students, even those who score rather low on
their
essays (4.5 is about the average score on a scale of 9), know to keep
features of text messaging register out of their academic writing.
R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802
[log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:40:09 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gretchen Le <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: text messaging creep-over?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi,
I teach middle school, and while I get some "creep", it is always from a
student who hasn't mastered code switching to formal register ("LOL, Mrs.
Le, funny doncha think?").
Another interesting phenomena that is associated with technology is what
happens when the students are suddenly without the auto correct feature of
Word or its ilk. I give all my tests and essays on the school software,
which deliberately has no autocorrect feature in the student field (I'm told
it's so that teachers could give spelling tests). You would think my
students were illiterate. They NEVER capitalize the initial letter of a
sentence or the first person pronoun "I," as the software has been doing it
for them forever. They have forgotten how to do it.
Having learned typing on a manual typewriter, I still painstakingly use the
shift key, even as I watch the students breeze through an essay in Word
without ever touching it.
Interestingly, they do the same thing in text messaging, but not in cursive
handwriting. In fact, the only way I can get them to conventionally
punctuate and capitalize their essays in the school software is to threaten
to make them handwrite it if they don't.
~Gretchen
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I commonly find two classes of *possible* creep-over in student writing.
> One is only in student emails: absence of capital letters and conversion
> of "you" to "u." My students usually discriminate quite well between
> "classroom writing" and "email," but not between "casual email" and
> "business/formal email." I have had a couple of students who
> spectacularly fuzzed the boundaries between informal email and formal
> writing (hence my earlier "d00d" reference) but a couple of memorable
> examples doesn't make a trend.
>
> The other class of items is one I only suspect is being supported by
> text-messaging: homonym errors. I don't think people where I currently
> live have pronounced "which" and "witch" differently for generations,
> but ten years ago, I think more of them distinguished them in writing.
> I'm frequently getting "were" for "where" in student papers. Homonym
> errors are, of course, by no means new, but regularly *seeing* text that
> routinely uses "were" for both "where" and "were" has to have an effect.
> If you read only material that's published (newspapers, novels, etc.)
> that type of conflation usually doesn't make it past an editor, so you
> get used to seeing the difference in text even if (as with which/witch
> for many people) there's no difference in pronunciation. It won't be an
> emergency if some of these spelling distinctions disappear entirely --
> it's happened before, and many times -- but there it is.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of O'Sullivan, Brian P
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: text messaging creep-over?
>
> Ironically, there might be more creep-over into professors' comments
> than there is into students' papers; some professors use "emoticons" to
> soften the occasional comment.
>
> Brian
>
> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor of English
> Director of the Writing Center
> St. Mary's College of Maryland
> Montgomery Hall 50
> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
> St. Mary's City, Maryland
> 20686
> 240-895-4242
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of R.
> Michael Medley (GLS)
> Sent: Fri 6/20/2008 10:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: text messaging creep-over?
>
> Washington Post staff writer Linton Weeks seemingly believes everything
> he
> reads:
>
> "In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
> seeping into academic writing."
>
> "Text messaging creep-over"? Not a sign of it as far as I can tell. I
> just returned from reading more than 700 Advanced Placement English
> language and composition essays written by students from across the
> nation. I saw plenty of inarticulateness but absolutely no sign
> whatsoever of "text messaging creep-over" into academic writing.
> Apparently, high school students, even those who score rather low on
> their
> essays (4.5 is about the average score on a scale of 9), know to keep
> features of text messaging register out of their academic writing.
>
> R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
> Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802
> [log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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<div>Hi,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I teach middle school, and while I get some "creep", it is always from a student who hasn't mastered code switching to formal register ("LOL, Mrs. Le, funny doncha think?").</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Another interesting phenomena that is associated with technology is what happens when the students are suddenly without the auto correct feature of Word or its ilk. I give all my tests and essays on the school software, which deliberately has no autocorrect feature in the student field (I'm told it's so that teachers could give spelling tests). You would think my students were illiterate. They NEVER capitalize the initial letter of a sentence or the first person pronoun "I," as the software has been doing it for them forever. They have forgotten how to do it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Having learned typing on a manual typewriter, I still painstakingly use the shift key, even as I watch the students breeze through an essay in Word without ever touching it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Interestingly, they do the same thing in text messaging, but not in cursive handwriting. In fact, the only way I can get them to conventionally punctuate and capitalize their essays in the school software is to threaten to make them handwrite it if they don't.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>~Gretchen<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Spruiell, William C <<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I commonly find two classes of *possible* creep-over in student writing.<br>One is only in student emails: absence of capital letters and conversion<br>
of "you" to "u." My students usually discriminate quite well between<br>"classroom writing" and "email," but not between "casual email" and<br>"business/formal email." I have had a couple of students who<br>
spectacularly fuzzed the boundaries between informal email and formal<br>writing (hence my earlier "d00d" reference) but a couple of memorable<br>examples doesn't make a trend.<br><br>The other class of items is one I only suspect is being supported by<br>
text-messaging: homonym errors. I don't think people where I currently<br>live have pronounced "which" and "witch" differently for generations,<br>but ten years ago, I think more of them distinguished them in writing.<br>
I'm frequently getting "were" for "where" in student papers. Homonym<br>errors are, of course, by no means new, but regularly *seeing* text that<br>routinely uses "were" for both "where" and "were" has to have an effect.<br>
If you read only material that's published (newspapers, novels, etc.)<br>that type of conflation usually doesn't make it past an editor, so you<br>get used to seeing the difference in text even if (as with which/witch<br>
for many people) there's no difference in pronunciation. It won't be an<br>emergency if some of these spelling distinctions disappear entirely --<br>it's happened before, and many times -- but there it is.<br>
<br>Bill Spruiell<br>Dept. of English<br>Central Michigan University<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br></div>
<div class="Ih2E3d">[mailto:<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of O'Sullivan, Brian P<br>Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:35 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="Wj3C7c">Subject: Re: text messaging creep-over?<br><br>Ironically, there might be more creep-over into professors' comments<br>than there is into students' papers; some professors use "emoticons" to<br>
soften the occasional comment.<br><br>Brian<br><br>Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.<br>Assistant Professor of English<br>Director of the Writing Center<br>St. Mary's College of Maryland<br>Montgomery Hall 50<br>18952 E. Fisher Rd.<br>
St. Mary's City, Maryland<br>20686<br>240-895-4242<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of R.<br>Michael Medley (GLS)<br>Sent: Fri 6/20/2008 10:11 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: text messaging creep-over?<br><br>Washington Post staff writer Linton Weeks seemingly believes everything<br>he<br>reads:<br><br>"In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --<br>
seeping into academic writing."<br><br>"Text messaging creep-over"? Not a sign of it as far as I can tell. I<br>just returned from reading more than 700 Advanced Placement English<br>language and composition essays written by students from across the<br>
nation. I saw plenty of inarticulateness but absolutely no sign<br>whatsoever of "text messaging creep-over" into academic writing.<br>Apparently, high school students, even those who score rather low on<br>their<br>
essays (4.5 is about the average score on a scale of 9), know to keep<br>features of text messaging register out of their academic writing.<br><br>R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.<br>Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802<br>
<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a> (540) 432-4051<br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br>interface at:<br> <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br><br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br>
interface at:<br> <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:34:01 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 18 Jun 2008 to 19 Jun 2008 (#2008-137)
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In most cases we have a pretty good sense of where a sentence begins and ends in text, and the recensions of the same text by different editors don't differ a whole lot on this. But there are cases, like Ephesians 1:3-10, where the editors punctuate the entire passage as one sentence. It may be that that was Paul's intent, but Paul wouldn't have bothered to punctuate at all. The Koine I'm referring to is the 1st c. eastern Mediterranean lingua franca, not the medieval version. "Nescient" is a wonderful word, a doublet with "nice."
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 20, 2008 3:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 18 Jun 2008 to 19 Jun 2008 (#2008-137)
I am nescient of the concept of the sentence in Koine Greek--
the medieval language with which I am most familiar. The modern
editors may have added punctuation but word rearrangement was
not appropriate. Almost all 'sentences' in the Greek text of
the New Testament make perfect sense; those that do not require
only an understanding of the idiomatic structure. I have not
read Hebrew or any other non-IndoEuropean language in facsimiles;
I have read facsimiles in Medieval English, French, Spanish, and
German: the sentences made sense. I was not reading facsimiles
in Latin and Classical Greek, but the 'sentences' made sense--
even without a verb: "The sea all around and all around the sea."
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 18 Jun 2008 to 19 Jun 2008 (#2008-137)
There are 6 messages totalling 1705 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. The Death of the Sentence? (6)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:18:48 +0300
From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
given that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark
sentence boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause
complexes; writing systems may or may not orthographically mark these in
various ways.
Arabic is another example of a language that does not clearly demarcate
what sentence boundaries. Until the modern period, Arabic had no
punctuation marks at all, and none appear in the Quran. The frequent
appearance of verbless sentences in Arabic may also complicate attempts
to define the Arabic sentence. I teach English to Arabs and spend a lot
of time trying to get students to write in "sentences", very loosely
described as a string of no more than ten words containing a noun and a
verb. That "rule" usually works and establishes a point from which we
can proceed. At the very least, it prevents students from slipping into
Joycean mode, which can be quite inventive but, unfortunately, violates
the canon of the good sentence imposed by EFL grammars.
Mark
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:37:41 -0400
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:16:16 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Koine Greek was similar, and, of course, there was little punctuation at th=
at time. Bible translators generally work from the current scholarly editi=
ons of the Greek text, which are carefully punctuated, but if one looks at,=
for example, the letters of Paul, deciding what the boundaries of a senten=
ce are is neither easy nor obvious. This is true of other ancient authors =
as well, and in any language where the early writing system didn't punctuat=
e.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of MC Johnstone [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 19, 2008 3:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually c=
omments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain the c=
laim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought, giv=
en that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentenc=
e boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes; wri=
ting systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
Arabic is another example of a language that does not clearly demarcate
what sentence boundaries. Until the modern period, Arabic had no
punctuation marks at all, and none appear in the Quran. The frequent
appearance of verbless sentences in Arabic may also complicate attempts
to define the Arabic sentence. I teach English to Arabs and spend a lot
of time trying to get students to write in "sentences", very loosely
described as a string of no more than ten words containing a noun and a
verb. That "rule" usually works and establishes a point from which we
can proceed. At the very least, it prevents students from slipping into
Joycean mode, which can be quite inventive but, unfortunately, violates
the canon of the good sentence imposed by EFL grammars.
Mark
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:31:01 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Craig,
I agree, and we have to distinguish between written sentences in several re=
gisters and spoken sentences, also in several registers. Ceritanly sentenc=
e structure varies with genre, and, in writing in particular, what's percei=
ved as a good sentence has changed over time.
You missed an opportunity for a great compound noun: text messaging creep-=
over. Just think what the author of that Washington Post article could hav=
e done with the notion.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 19, 2008 8:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular th=
e
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoke=
n
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further fo=
r
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and=
,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in ou=
r
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "i=
s
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grin=
d
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain th=
e
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
>
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
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> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
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>
> at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
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> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:45:26 -0400
From: Amanda Godley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To echo Craig's observation -- I just completed an analysis of
grammar/conventions/usage errors in about 200 high school students' timed
academic essays and found only 11 instances of text-messaging language. I
also gave the students a survey about their use of text messaging. 76% of
students reported that they own a cell phone and about 50% reported sending
more than 15 text messages per day (36% reported sending more than 30 text
messages per day).
It seems as if the high school students in my study engage in texting quite
a bit but still understand that it is not appropriate/effective in academic
writing.
Amanda
On 6/19/08 8:37 AM, "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Herb,
> A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
> sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
> It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
> unruly riffraff.
> The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
> accomplish our communally evolving goals.
> Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
> to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
> read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
> text-messaging creeping over.
>
> Craig>
>
> Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
>> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular
the
>> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
>> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
>> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
>> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
>> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
>> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
>> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
>> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the
spoken
>> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
>> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
>> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
>> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
>> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
>> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
>> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
>> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
>> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
>> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further
for
>> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
>> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
>> things.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
>> Sentence
>>
>> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
>> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
>> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation,
and,
>> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>>
>> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in
our
>> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
>> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
>> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
>> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
>> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
>> sense.)
>>
>> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
>> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following the
>> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
>> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
>> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
>> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
>> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone
"is
>> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
>> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>>
>> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>>
>> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>>
>> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>>
>> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>>
>> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill,
grind
>>
>> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
>> (well,
>>
>> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>>
>> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
>> would
>>
>> otherwise occur.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>>
>> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain
the
>>
>> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
>> given
>>
>> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentence
>>
>> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
>> writing
>>
>> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>>
>>
>>
>> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>>
>> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>>
>> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>>
>> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>>
>> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>>
>> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from other
>>
>> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>>
>> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
>> shown
>>
>> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>>
>> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
>> group,
>>
>> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>>
>> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>>
>> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>>
>> writing quite alien.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>>
>> Dept. of English
>>
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> Carol,
>>
>> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>>
>> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>>
>> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>>
>> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>>
>> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>>
>> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>>
>> any
>>
>> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>>
>> are comic.
>>
>> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>>
>> and
>>
>> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>>
>> of the article.
>>
>> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>>
>> teaching about language.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig >
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>>
>>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second to
>>
>>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>>
>> "invented" the
>>
>>> sentence?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>>
>>> By Linton Weeks
>>
>>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>>
>>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>>
>>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>>
>>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>>
>>> seeping into academic writing.
>>
>>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending death
>>
>>> of the English sentence.
>>
>>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>>
>>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>>
>> human
>>
>>> communication: the sentence.
>>
>>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>>
>>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>>
>>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>>
>>> Storytelling itself.
>>
>>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>>> middle
>>
>>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there are
>>
>>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>>> objects,
>>
>>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>>
>>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>>
>> wept.")
>>
>>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>>
>>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>>
>>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>> interface
>>
>>> at:
>>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Amanda Godley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
English Education
University of Pittsburgh
5111 Wesley W. Posvar Hall
Pittsburgh, PA 15260
412-648-7313
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:42:44 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Our students may not know the term "register," until we explain it to them,=
but I find most of them, at least at the college level, have a pretty good=
understanding that the appropriateness of writing choices is sensitive to =
the context they're writing in.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Amanda Godley
Sent: 2008-06-19 11:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To echo Craig's observation -- I just completed an analysis of
grammar/conventions/usage errors in about 200 high school students' timed
academic essays and found only 11 instances of text-messaging language. I
also gave the students a survey about their use of text messaging. 76% of
students reported that they own a cell phone and about 50% reported sending
more than 15 text messages per day (36% reported sending more than 30 text
messages per day).
It seems as if the high school students in my study engage in texting quite
a bit but still understand that it is not appropriate/effective in academic
writing.
Amanda
On 6/19/08 8:37 AM, "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Herb,
> A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
> sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
> It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
> unruly riffraff.
> The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps u=
s
> accomplish our communally evolving goals.
> Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have ye=
t
> to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
> read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
> text-messaging creeping over.
>
> Craig>
>
> Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
>> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular t=
he
>> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
>> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
>> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
>> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
>> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
>> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description=
.
>> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
>> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spok=
en
>> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
>> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
>> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
>> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
>> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
>> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
>> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put together a
>> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
>> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
>> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home further f=
or
>> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
>> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
>> things.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
>> Sentence
>>
>> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
>> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
>> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, an=
d,
>> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>>
>> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in o=
ur
>> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
>> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
>> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
>> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
>> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
>> sense.)
>>
>> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
>> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following th=
e
>> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
>> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
>> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the Middle Ages, but
>> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou speakest sentences" says a
>> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone "=
is
>> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
>> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>>
>> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>>
>> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations like
>>
>> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try to
>>
>> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>>
>> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, gri=
nd
>>
>> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
>> (well,
>>
>> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>>
>> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
>> would
>>
>> otherwise occur.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>>
>> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain t=
he
>>
>> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
>> given
>>
>> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark sentenc=
e
>>
>> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
>> writing
>>
>> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>>
>>
>>
>> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions, but
>>
>> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>>
>> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>>
>> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>>
>> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation tend
>>
>> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from othe=
r
>>
>> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>>
>> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
>> shown
>>
>> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>>
>> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
>> group,
>>
>> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U R
>>
>> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if that's
>>
>> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>>
>> writing quite alien.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>>
>> Dept. of English
>>
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> Carol,
>>
>> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>>
>> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>>
>> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>>
>> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>>
>> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>>
>> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they thought
>>
>> any
>>
>> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>>
>> are comic.
>>
>> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries" ago
>>
>> and
>>
>> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the bulk
>>
>> of the article.
>>
>> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>>
>> teaching about language.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig >
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>>
>>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second t=
o
>>
>>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>>
>> "invented" the
>>
>>> sentence?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>>
>>> By Linton Weeks
>>
>>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>>
>>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>>
>>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>>
>>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging --
>>
>>> seeping into academic writing.
>>
>>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending deat=
h
>>
>>> of the English sentence.
>>
>>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>>
>>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component of
>>
>> human
>>
>>> communication: the sentence.
>>
>>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>>
>>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>>
>>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>>
>>> Storytelling itself.
>>
>>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>>> middle
>>
>>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there ar=
e
>>
>>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>>> objects,
>>
>>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>>
>>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>>
>> wept.")
>>
>>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>>
>>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a stair
>>
>>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>> interface
>>
>>> at:
>>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce
>>
>> at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Amanda Godley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
English Education
University of Pittsburgh
5111 Wesley W. Posvar Hall
Pittsburgh, PA 15260
412-648-7313
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:07:15 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
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Bruce,
I agree that writers have emulated Latin style. I suspect periodic sentences are an instance of this, but these are stylistic choices that may lead to strange sounding syntactic decisions. As to the split infinitive, David Mulroy has researched this and shows that the rule was not formulated until the mid 1860s. The ban on preposition stranding is a good example. Who/whom/whose is a more complex matter. Joan C. Beal has a corpus-based and nicely nuanced discussion of it in her English in Modern Times (Holder Arnold 2004). What does show Latin influence is the fact that these wh- forms generalized from being question words, their etymological source, to serving also as relative pronouns. This shift actually took place twice in the history of English, once during the OE period in the 10th and 11th cc., and very much under the influence of Latin, and once again in the 14th c. Our modern grammar, of course, is the result of the latter shift. The reason the shift happened twice, of course, is due to the interruption by the Norman Invasion. The use of the "of" genitive is partly due to French influence, but I think it too results from largely internal pressures. Here's a table of change in usage taken from a Charles C. Fries article from the 1960s (I don't have the exact reference handy).
Year 900 1000 1100 1200 1250 1300 1400 1500
Acc-obj. before verb 52.50 52.70 40.00 27.60 14.30 7.00 1.87
Acc-obj. after verb 47.50 46.30 60.00 72.35 85.70 92.00 98.13
Genitive before its noun 52.40 96.10 77.40 87.40 99.10
Genitive after its noun 47.60 30.90 22.60 12.60 0.90
Periphrastic genitive 0.50 1.00 1.20 6.30 31.40 84.50
If you load that table into Excel and generate a line-graph from it, you see quite a dramatic complementarity between the rise of the prenominal genitive, the decline of the postnominal, and the rise of the periphrastic ("of" genitive). I'm sending you a file of it separately as an attachment. Number agreement, as we've seen, is another matter entirely. Huddleston&Pullum have some good material on it.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 20, 2008 4:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
Herb,
Your examples are impressive to your point. I agree that borrowing syntax was not heavy. I think we are speaking of the writing of the scholars who were conversant in Latin and borrowed its structures. Maybe a few examples would be appropriate. We might mention the avoidance of the split infinitive. There is the requirement for the preposition to stay with the object, to which it belongs. There is the retention of case endings on relative pronouns. Then there is the troublesome gerund/gerundive decision that seems to have been brought over from Latin. The many genitive uses with "of" in preference to the possessive seem to be Latinizations. I guess the question is whether and to what extent such influences were deliberate. The recent discussion about a logical number agreement rule might be to this point. If someone wants their language to be logical, and they change it to be more logical, is that being deliberate about making such changes? Maybe sometimes it is, especially in formal contexts. Yet sometimes it would seem to be quite unconsciously and automatically done -- an inadvertant mathematical message cross-over. Maybe also if the innovation doesn't affect the peasant farmer in the West Riding of Yorkshire, it doesn't count as wholesale.
Bruce
>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 06/20/08 11:23 AM >>>
Words are pretty easy to borrow, as a glance at the OED makes clear. A huge proportion of English vocabulary is borrowed. Morphology and function words can also be borrowed, but it’s a little less common. Of course we probably borrowed “she” from Old Norse, although that hasn’t been proved, and we certainly borrowed from them the th- third person plural pronouns. Many, in fact, most of our derivational prefixes and suffixes are, but the borrowed ones tend to be less regular and predictable than the native ones, like the contrast between –ness (native) and (-ity) (borrowed). Syntactic borrowing, on the other hand, is unusual. Most of the form of modern English syntax is the result of natural, internal, historical development, although phrases and compounds like “court martial” show some French influence. A lot of vocabulary with Latin etymology is, in fact, English creation of new words from stems that were not put together that way in Latin, and so we have Latinate words like “contraception”, made up of a prefix and a bound root both of which are from Latin but which do not occur in this combination in Latin.
For English to have borrowed Latin syntax heavily, there would probably have had to be a longish period of close cultural contact between a native Latin speaking community and a native English speaking community, and even then much in the way of syntactic borrowing would be difficult to demonstrate and to distinguish from natural historical changes in English.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: 2008-06-20 12:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
I wonder about the apparent aversion to borrowing syntax from Latin, when it was OK to borrow vocabulary items wholesale. I wonder about how deliberate the process was. After all, the cultures were amalgamating and their various registers were blending.
Bruce
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 06/20/08 9:46 AM >>>
I would agree – and then add that, depending on what is meant by “sentence” we might have to look at the people who deliberately added a lot of Latinized structures to English and called it “formal grammar.”
I think, generally, the commonly referred to “sentence” is probably that thing people tried to formalize in grammar books, once such things existed. I forget who referred to “statements” versus “sentences,” but that was a good point – we’ve always spoken in statements (or, at least, we have since we’ve had language), and once we began writing we moved from lists to statements fairly quickly. But we had no formalized “grammar,” per se, for many centuries after that, which might mean that the “sentence” is a relatively new adoption. So much depends on point of view!
-patty
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
You’ll need to define your last question. What do you mean by beginning “to write in ‘sentences’ or what we call ‘sentences’”? If you mean a form like the sentence has today in many written languages, then you’re looking at the late medieval period. But if you’re at “sentence” as a way of expressing a limited block of meaning within a context that shapes it, then people started writing in sentences as soon as they started writing anything more richly structured than lists.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-06-20 09:30
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
I guess what piqued my curiosity about the Washington Post article was the use of the word "invention" as the method of the sentence's origin. It's not that I think that the sentence was fabricated in a lab one afternoon, or invented in the way that Marconi invented the wireless telegraph or that Gutenberg invented the movable-type printing press, but at some point, somebody or bodies must have proclaimed: "Aha! The sentence! What a beautiful grammatical unit...Henceforth, mankind shall write in sentences!" (Or at least English-speaking college freshman will write in sentences). Anyway, after reading the stunning tribute and eulogy to the sentence, I thought that if people are going to speak of it posthumously, it would be nice to commemorate its birth (or standardization in English grammar). I am interested in finding out when people began to write in "sentences" or what we call "sentences."
--- On Thu, 6/19/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:37 AM
Herb,
A corrolary to this--I'm not sure if you would agree--is that the
sentence EVOLVES over time, and it is something we all contribute to.
It isn't invented at the top and then imposed downward against the
unruly riffraff.
The best standards have everything to do with what works, what helps us
accomplish our communally evolving goals.
Text messaging is something we should delight in and admire. I have yet
to see any serious encroachment into the academic world. I have just
read 43 freshmen placement essays without a single instance of
text-messaging creeping over.
Craig>
Forty or so years ago I used to argue with transformational-generative
> grammarians, and they were that then, that the sentence, in particular the
> symbol S, was not a logical primitive but a methodological choice. It
> represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and
> constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering
> questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about
> competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of
> the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description.
> In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons,
> etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken
> sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath. In the early 70s I
> was teaching a linguistic field methods course with a linguistics grad
> student as native speaker. His language was Pashto, and as we got into
> the syntax of Pashto, we explored a variety of canonical sentence types
> and then started working on complex sentences, looking into subordinate
> clauses and the constraints that apply to complex sentence structures.
> The Pashto speaker paused at one point and said, "You can put
together a
> sentence like that in Pashto, but no one every would. When people tell
> stories, argue with each other, talk about affairs of their families and
> communities, they use simple sentences." That just drove home
further for
> me the observation that what a sentence can be depends very much on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other
> things.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: 2008-06-18 20:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
> I found this on leithart.com under the subheading: The History of the
> Sentence
>
> Ian Robinson's The Establishment of Modern English Prose in the
> Reformation and the Enlightenment (Cambridge, 1998) is a fascinating
> discussion of the history of the sentence and of English punctuation, and,
> despite its heavy-handed title, is a delight to read.
>
> Does the sentence have a history? Robinson shows that it does. Even in our
> day, when the well-formed sentence is described as the key to prose
> writing, there are many intelligible uses of language that do not employ
> well-formed sentences - lists, lecture notes, football broadcasts.
> (Robinson is not an opponent of the well-formed sentence; his are
> wonderful; but he recognizes that it is not the only possible unit of
> sense.)
>
> Prior to the modern period, Robinson argues, the sentence was not
> recognized as a syntactical unit at all: "Medieval grammar, following
the
> classical tradition, was of course highly developed, but there never
> emerged in the medieval period any conception of the sentence as
> syntactical unit." The word "sentence" is used in the
Middle Ages, but
> means something like "sense" or "gist." "Thou
speakest sentences" says a
> character in Ben Jonson's Poetaster, and he does not mean that someone
"is
> speaking dramatically but that he is speaking sense and, in particular,
> uttering weighty, authoritative dicta."
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
>
> Anyone who thinks that abbreviations and "squiggle" notations
like
>
> ":-)" are a problem in current writing should be forced to try
to
>
> read medieval manuscripts. Start with really expensive writing materials
>
> (vellum anyone?), make the writing process laborious (sharpen quill, grind
>
> stuff for ink, blot the vellum...) and throw in a bunch of insular monks
> (well,
>
> insular even for monks), and you get pages of squigglefest. At least the
>
> computer environment prevents some of the excesses of calligraphy that
> would
>
> otherwise occur.
>
>
>
> I suspect that the comments about sentences in that piece were actually
>
> comments about punctuation. If so, I'm not really sure how to maintain
the
>
> claim that clearly demarcated sentences are necessary for clear thought,
> given
>
> that -- in all probability -- Plato, Aristotle, etc. didn't mark
sentence
>
> boundaries in writing at all. Languages always have clause complexes;
> writing
>
> systems may or may not orthographically mark these in various ways.
>
>
>
> All that having been said (I don't usually adopt absolute positions,
but
>
> I'll certainly use absolutes), I *do* tend to notice a link between
>
> orthographically-unstructured writing, etc. and bad argumentation in my
>
> students -- but I don't think the first causes the second. Instead,
>
> it's simply that students who don't read much good argumentation
tend
>
> not to argue well, and if they're reading mainly text messages from
other
>
> students, they're not reading much good argumentation. Other studies
>
> (including something from NCTE that I may be able to dig out later) have
> shown
>
> that students *are* reading a good bit -- but I suspect what they're
>
> reading is the kind of texts that are produced by others in their age
> group,
>
> and that emphasize easy social interaction over critical thinking. "U
R
>
> teh uber-newb, d00d!" is fascinating in its own right, but if
that's
>
> the kind of thing you're used to, you'll find academic or business
>
> writing quite alien.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:35 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence?
>
>
>
>>
>
> Carol,
>
> I read the article in part because the inbox announced that Martha
>
> Kolln had been consulted. Martha's comments are about the only
>
> thoughtful part of it. It left me thinking that it's not the death of
>
> the sentence that's a problem, but the general shallowness of
>
> conversation about it, including those (Martha the main exception) in
>
> our "discipline" of English who weighed in. I suspect they
thought
>
> any
>
> working journalist could handle the topic, but the results in this case
>
> are comic.
>
> The idea that the sentence was "invented several centuries"
ago
>
> and
>
> "brought order to chaos" is the sort of silliness that fills the
bulk
>
> of the article.
>
> It's high tine for NCTE to begin advocating at least some direct
>
> teaching about language.
>
>
>
> Craig >
>
>
>
> Hi everyone. This was in my NCTE inbox this morning, so some of you may
>
>> have read it. (This is only part of the article). I bolded the second
to
>
>> last line because it interests me: Does anyone know who
>
> "invented" the
>
>> sentence?
>
>>
>
>> The Fate of The Sentence: Is the Writing On the Wall?
>
>> By Linton Weeks
>
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
>> Sunday, June 15, 2008; Page M01
>
>>
>
>> The demise of orderly writing: signs everywhere.
>
>> One recent report, young Americans don't write well.
>
>> In a survey, Internet language -- abbreviated wds, :) and txt msging
--
>
>> seeping into academic writing.
>
>> But above all, what really scares a lot of scholars: the impending
death
>
>> of the English sentence.
>
>> Librarian of Congress James Billington, for one. "I see creeping
>
>> inarticulateness," he says, and the demise of the basic component
of
>
> human
>
>> communication: the sentence.
>
>> This assault on the lowly -- and mighty -- sentence, he says, is
>
>> symptomatic of a disease potentially fatal to civilization. If the
>
>> sentence croaks, so will critical thought. The chronicling of history.
>
>> Storytelling itself.
>
>> He has a point. The sentence itself is a story, with a beginning, a
>> middle
>
>> and an end. Something happens in a sentence. Without subjects, there
are
>
>> no heroes or villains. Without verbs, there is no action. Without
>> objects,
>
>> nothing is moved, changed, destroyed or created.
>
>> Plus, simple sentences clarify complex situations. ("Jesus
>
> wept.")
>
>> Since its invention centuries ago, the sentence has brought order to
>
>> chaos. It's the handle on the pitcher, a tonic chord in music, a
stair
>
>> step chiseled in a mountainside.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
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>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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>
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 09:04:01 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pronouns
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Which is correct/sounds better:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
Or should I just re-work the thing?
Thanks,
John
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Which is correct/sounds better:<br><br>1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<br>2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<br><br>Or should I just re-work the thing?<br><br>
Thanks,<br>John<br>
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:43:27 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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John,
I'd say it depends on whether you intend "you" to be included in who "knows." Will the teacher discover that he or she knows something or that the students know something?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: 2008-06-21 09:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pronouns
Which is correct/sounds better:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
Or should I just re-work the thing?
Thanks,
John
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’d say it depends on whether you intend “you” to be included in
who “knows.” Will the teacher discover that he or she knows something or that
the students know something?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Crow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-06-21 09:04<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Pronouns<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Which is correct/sounds better:<br>
<br>
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<br>
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<br>
<br>
Or should I just re-work the thing?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
John<br>
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:14:54 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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My question is about the context, because depending on the rest of the
sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.
"Both you and your students will discover," to me, implies something that
the teacher and students figure out together. However - in the first
sentence, using YOU means (again, to me) that the two subjects discover
something no one knew before. In the second, using THEY implies that
there's something the teacher knew that the students didn't.
As an example:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know about text
messaging syntax.
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know more about
grammar than they realized.
See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pronouns
Which is correct/sounds better:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
Or should I just re-work the thing?
Thanks,
John
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My question is about the context, because
depending on the rest of the sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“Both you and your students will
discover,” to me, implies something that the teacher and students figure
out together. However – in the first sentence, using YOU means
(again, to me) that the two subjects discover something no one knew
before. In the second, using THEY implies that there’s something
the teacher knew that the students didn’t. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As an example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Both
you and your students will discover that YOU know about text messaging
syntax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Both
you and your students will discover that THEY know more about grammar than
they realized.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>See what I mean, there? Or am I
over-thinking this?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-patty<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>John Crow<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Pronouns</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Which is correct/sounds better:<br>
<br>
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<br>
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<br>
<br>
Or should I just re-work the thing?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
John<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:25:04 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance of
thecompetence-performance distinction
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I am sorry I am coming late to this discussion. I agree with everything that has been said. My colleague Jim Kenkel and I have been looking at a collection of essays written by first year native and non-native speaking college students to understand the non-standard punctuation. ALL of the essays had sentences that were punctuated according to the standard rules. Those that were non-standard appeared to be following principles to show the relationship between various ideas.
I am very reticent to question Herb, but there are reasons why the concept of the sentence is more that a "methodological choice." It is a category that reflects English speakers knowledge of the language.
Herb writes:
[The S (for sentence)] represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description. In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons, etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath.
***
Note the use of the word "tend." I think Herb gives away too much with that word.
Do we need the category of "sentence" (or clause) to describe what people do with they speak?
A couple of thought experiences.
I. Try to describe well-formed tag questions (a structure that almost exclusively in the oral language) in English without the use of the category sentence. You know what tag questions are, don't you? Tag questions are easy to describe, aren't they?
II. Try to describe well-formed questions (again forms that are very frequent in the oral language) in English without the use of the category sentence. Some sentences to consider in your description.
1) Is the woman from France?
2) Does the woman live next door?
3) Is the woman who lives next door from France?
4) Does the woman who is from France live next door?
5) Yesterday, did the woman leave?
III. Try to describe the antecedents of her and herself in the following strings without reference to sentence. (I recognize that these sentences may not be common in the oral language, but they can be easily understood in the oral language.)
"herself" has to refer to Mary in the following.
6) Mary sees herself on television.
7) Mary wants to see herself on television.
"her" cannot refer to Mary.
8) Mary sees her on television.
9) Mary wants to see her on televison.
"herself" has to refer to Jane.
10) Mary wants Jane to see herself on television. (but remember 7)
"her" can refer to Mary
11) Mary wants Jane to see her on television. (but remember 9)
****
I recognize that I am suggesting the competence-performance distinction is crucial. By the way, I am not alone in this regard. The competence-performance distinction is the basis for the suggestions that De Beaugrande in his "Forward to the basics" paper and Noguchi in his NCTE book use for their suggestions in how to show students how to determine whether a string they have written is an appropriate sentence.
Finally, given what I have written above, I have no idea what the following means:
". . . what a sentence can be depends very much on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other things."
Do the principles of well-formed tag questions, yes-no questions, and the antecedents of personal pronouns and antecedents change depending on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting?
Obviously, the frequency of the use of various forms change and some forms are very rare in some kinds of discourse (just like certain lexical items), but I have no idea how medium, genre, social setting changes the principles for any grammatical structure in English.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:16:38 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance of
thecompetence-performance distinction
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Bob,
Thanks for your thoughtful critique of my comments and your vigorous defense of the sentence as a syntactic unit. I can't disagree with any of what you've argued. There is no question that the sentence is an important unit, and when we're talking about morpho-syntactic phenomena it is the domain over which and within which large numbers of grammatical phenomena are defined. I'd probably even agree that there is a set of minimal clause types that we can define for a particular language that correspond to the speech acts that the language defines morphosyntactically--or did I just commit a tautology? My argument is not with the reality or the importance of the sentence as a linguistic unit; rather it is with the claim that S or IP or CP is the starting point for grammar. As a domain over which to define a theory of syntax it certainly makes good sense. But as a domain, it is an a priori that is chosen for methodological reasons, namely, because, as you have pointed out, so many constraints, rules, and relationships can be defined with rigor within that domain.
But let's look at phenomena that have syntactic consequences within sentences but that cannot be defined within the domain of the sentence: focus, topicality, reference, and tense, to start with. Many of the consequences for these can all be described at the sentence level for a particular language, but the larger phenomena are phenomena of discourse and of pragmatics, rendering their sentential effects epiphenomena.
But part of what I was getting at comes from my own experience working with speakers of other languages as well as with English speakers at various levels of education and development. My note on my Pashto student and language consultant was meant to suggest that what works as a well-formed sentence in one social milieu, for example, discourse around a cooking fire in the evening in a village somewhere and what works in another, say a professional sociologist writing for publication in a journal, defines and permits very different syntactic phenomena. A complex sentence with perhaps more than one clause in passive voice would simply not be comprehended, much less produced by an elder telling a folktale to the folk seated around the fire. This has nothing to do, obviously, with intelligence; it has to do with media, genre, and situation, as well as language-specific training. The same can be said for special morphosyntactic phenomena related to initiation rites, relationships between the sexes, etc. Even within literary written English, compare Henry James and Ernest Hemingway; their very different approaches to the sentence in discourse reflects not just differences in style but even in world view, some of which can be quite conscious.
Of course, a comprehensive grammar must be able to describe all of this, but such a grammar has never yet been written. Huddleston&Pullum or Quirk et al. describe standard written English pretty thoroughly, but they do not even attempt to work across a full range of genres or registers.
As to competence and performance, perhaps my jaundiced view reflects the times in which I learned our craft, the mid-60s to early 70s. Syntactic theory was changing rapidly during that period, even moreso than now, and there were competing approaches growing up that were making interesting claims demanding response, all before the generative semantics vs. autonomous syntax war redefined the theory landscape. It was an exciting time to be doing linguistics, but one of the disagreements that arose regularly at conferences, in classrooms, and even in publication was where the line was drawn between competence and performance. Broadly put, anything that your theory didn't treat belonged in performance. Anything it did was part of competence. I remember having an argument in a syntax class with Barbara Partee in which I was trying to convince her that the grammar must take into account shifts in stress and accent in describing the behavior of quantifiers and negation. Barbara dismissed those variables as "mere performance." A few years ago I was interviewing job candidates at the Winter LSA in Chicago, and Joan Bresnan delivered the presidential address in which she argued that grammatical theory now could and must account for such shifts in stress and accent. Thus over the course of my career, the interaction of stress and accent with quantifiers, negation, and focus has shifted quite clearly from performance to competence.
I recognize that theories change as they are tested, and as they change they gain in explanatory power, and this is, of course, what has happened. But it does rather undermine the notion competence vs. performance. This is not to say that native speakers don't have intuitions of grammaticality. Clearly they do, but these intuitions are grounded, I suspect, in something more broadly cognitive and not in the endlessly shifting convenience of the competence/performance borderline. What has been described as the competence/performance dichotomy is simply too simplistic to account for human linguistic behavior. At the very least these categories have to exist as regions on a continuum, but I'm not sure that even that suggestion isn't merely an attempt to save a notion that now has half a century of literature.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: 2008-06-21 12:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance of thecompetence-performance distinction
I am sorry I am coming late to this discussion. I agree with everything that has been said. My colleague Jim Kenkel and I have been looking at a collection of essays written by first year native and non-native speaking college students to understand the non-standard punctuation. ALL of the essays had sentences that were punctuated according to the standard rules. Those that were non-standard appeared to be following principles to show the relationship between various ideas.
I am very reticent to question Herb, but there are reasons why the concept of the sentence is more that a "methodological choice." It is a category that reflects English speakers knowledge of the language.
Herb writes:
[The S (for sentence)] represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description. In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons, etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath.
***
Note the use of the word "tend." I think Herb gives away too much with that word.
Do we need the category of "sentence" (or clause) to describe what people do with they speak?
A couple of thought experiences.
I. Try to describe well-formed tag questions (a structure that almost exclusively in the oral language) in English without the use of the category sentence. You know what tag questions are, don't you? Tag questions are easy to describe, aren't they?
II. Try to describe well-formed questions (again forms that are very frequent in the oral language) in English without the use of the category sentence. Some sentences to consider in your description.
1) Is the woman from France?
2) Does the woman live next door?
3) Is the woman who lives next door from France?
4) Does the woman who is from France live next door?
5) Yesterday, did the woman leave?
III. Try to describe the antecedents of her and herself in the following strings without reference to sentence. (I recognize that these sentences may not be common in the oral language, but they can be easily understood in the oral language.)
"herself" has to refer to Mary in the following.
6) Mary sees herself on television.
7) Mary wants to see herself on television.
"her" cannot refer to Mary.
8) Mary sees her on television.
9) Mary wants to see her on televison.
"herself" has to refer to Jane.
10) Mary wants Jane to see herself on television. (but remember 7)
"her" can refer to Mary
11) Mary wants Jane to see her on television. (but remember 9)
****
I recognize that I am suggesting the competence-performance distinction is crucial. By the way, I am not alone in this regard. The competence-performance distinction is the basis for the suggestions that De Beaugrande in his "Forward to the basics" paper and Noguchi in his NCTE book use for their suggestions in how to show students how to determine whether a string they have written is an appropriate sentence.
Finally, given what I have written above, I have no idea what the following means:
". . . what a sentence can be depends very much on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other things."
Do the principles of well-formed tag questions, yes-no questions, and the antecedents of personal pronouns and antecedents change depending on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting?
Obviously, the frequency of the use of various forms change and some forms are very rare in some kinds of discourse (just like certain lexical items), but I have no idea how medium, genre, social setting changes the principles for any grammatical structure in English.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 04:32:20 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns
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If I could use my native Okie language, it would be easier:
Both you and your students will discover that y'all know more about grammar
than you think you do.
In other words, what I'm trying to express is that both you--the
teacher--and his/her students will do the discovering. Sounds like, from
the responses, I should opt for "you" as the subject of the noun clause.
Y'all are a marvelous resource--thanks!!
John
On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> My question is about the context, because depending on the rest of the
> sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.
>
>
>
> "Both you and your students will discover," to me, implies something that
> the teacher and students figure out together. However – in the first
> sentence, using YOU means (again, to me) that the two subjects discover
> something no one knew before. In the second, using THEY implies that
> there's something the teacher knew that the students didn't.
>
>
>
> As an example:
>
>
>
> 1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know about text
> messaging syntax.
> 2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know more about
> grammar than they realized.
>
>
>
> See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?
>
>
>
> -patty
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *John Crow
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Pronouns
>
>
>
> Which is correct/sounds better:
>
>
> 1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
> 2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
>
> Or should I just re-work the thing?
>
> Thanks,
> John
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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If I could use my native Okie language, it would be easier:<br><br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Both you and your students will discover that y'all know more about grammar than you think you do.<br>
<br>In other words, what I'm trying to express is that both you--the teacher--and his/her students will do the discovering. Sounds like, from the responses, I should opt for "you" as the subject of the noun clause.<br>
<br>Y'all are a marvelous resource--thanks!!<br>John<br></span></font><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Patricia Lafayllve <<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">My question is about the context, because
depending on the rest of the sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">"Both you and your students will
discover," to me, implies something that the teacher and students figure
out together. However – in the first sentence, using YOU means
(again, to me) that the two subjects discover something no one knew
before. In the second, using THEY implies that there's something
the teacher knew that the students didn't. </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">As an example:</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<ol style="margin-top: 0in;" start="1" type="1">
<li style="color: navy;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Both
you and your students will discover that YOU know about text messaging
syntax.</span></font></li>
<li style="color: navy;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Both
you and your students will discover that THEY know more about grammar than
they realized.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">See what I mean, there? Or am I
over-thinking this?</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">-patty</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf
Of </span></b>John Crow<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04
AM<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Pronouns</div></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Which is correct/sounds better:<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<br>
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<br>
<br>
Or should I just re-work the thing?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
John<br></div></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
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the list" </div></span></font></p><div class="Ih2E3d">
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Visit
ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> </span></font></p>
</div></div>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
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</p></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:08:03 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance of
thecompetence-performance distinction
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Bob,
It probably doesn't change your argument at all, but Rei doesn't use tag
questions as a test for sentences. He uses them to test for subject. You
can put tag questions at the end of structures that traditional grammar
wouldn't accept as a sentence, but that would be fine in normal talk.
"Nice shot." "Your turn." "Hot enough for you?" "More coffee on table
eight." >
"Nice shot, wasn't it?" "Your turn, isn't it?" And so on.
I think tag questions have a highly pragmatic function, asking for
affirmation or confirmation from a listener or reader.
As teachers, I think we can and do share a belief that students bring a
great deal of automatic, intuitive, or unconscious knowledge that can
be put to work in helping them understand what is required of them in
the context of more formal writing. I agree; a good deal of what they
need is already there. We seem to differ in how to account for it.
Craig
I am sorry I am coming late to this discussion. I agree with everything
> that has been said. My colleague Jim Kenkel and I have been looking at a
> collection of essays written by first year native and non-native speaking
> college students to understand the non-standard punctuation. ALL of the
> essays had sentences that were punctuated according to the standard rules.
> Those that were non-standard appeared to be following principles to show
> the relationship between various ideas.
>
> I am very reticent to question Herb, but there are reasons why the concept
> of the sentence is more that a "methodological choice." It is a category
> that reflects English speakers knowledge of the language.
>
> Herb writes:
>
> [The S (for sentence)] represented a unit within which certain
> relationships, structures, and constraints could be discussed without
> the inconvenience of answering questions about discourse. This usually
> got us into an argument about competence and performance, which I held,
> and hold, to be a corollary of the methodological choice of S as the
> domain of analysis and description. In informal speech, in contrast to
> formal lectures, addresses, sermons, etc., sentences tend to correspond
> to the breath group, so that the spoken sentence tends to be what one
> can say in one breath.
>
> ***
> Note the use of the word "tend." I think Herb gives away too much with
> that word.
>
> Do we need the category of "sentence" (or clause) to describe what people
> do with they speak?
>
> A couple of thought experiences.
>
> I. Try to describe well-formed tag questions (a structure that almost
> exclusively in the oral language) in English without the use of the
> category sentence. You know what tag questions are, don't you? Tag
> questions are easy to describe, aren't they?
>
> II. Try to describe well-formed questions (again forms that are very
> frequent in the oral language) in English without the use of the category
> sentence. Some sentences to consider in your description.
>
> 1) Is the woman from France?
> 2) Does the woman live next door?
> 3) Is the woman who lives next door from France?
> 4) Does the woman who is from France live next door?
> 5) Yesterday, did the woman leave?
>
> III. Try to describe the antecedents of her and herself in the following
> strings without reference to sentence. (I recognize that these sentences
> may not be common in the oral language, but they can be easily understood
> in the oral language.)
>
> "herself" has to refer to Mary in the following.
> 6) Mary sees herself on television.
> 7) Mary wants to see herself on television.
>
> "her" cannot refer to Mary.
> 8) Mary sees her on television.
> 9) Mary wants to see her on televison.
>
> "herself" has to refer to Jane.
> 10) Mary wants Jane to see herself on television. (but remember 7)
>
> "her" can refer to Mary
> 11) Mary wants Jane to see her on television. (but remember 9)
>
> ****
> I recognize that I am suggesting the competence-performance distinction is
> crucial. By the way, I am not alone in this regard. The
> competence-performance distinction is the basis for the suggestions that
> De Beaugrande in his "Forward to the basics" paper and Noguchi in his NCTE
> book use for their suggestions in how to show students how to determine
> whether a string they have written is an appropriate sentence.
>
> Finally, given what I have written above, I have no idea what the
> following means:
>
> ". . . what a sentence can be depends very much on medium, genre,
> discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other things."
>
> Do the principles of well-formed tag questions, yes-no questions, and the
> antecedents of personal pronouns and antecedents change depending on
> medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting?
>
> Obviously, the frequency of the use of various forms change and some forms
> are very rare in some kinds of discourse (just like certain lexical
> items), but I have no idea how medium, genre, social setting changes the
> principles for any grammatical structure in English.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:54:39 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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John-
Yes, I think in that case I'd opt for "YOU" as the pronoun. Y'all is
inclusive that way, right?
-patty from the north
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 4:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pronouns
If I could use my native Okie language, it would be easier:
Both you and your students will discover that y'all know more about grammar
than you think you do.
In other words, what I'm trying to express is that both you--the
teacher--and his/her students will do the discovering. Sounds like, from
the responses, I should opt for "you" as the subject of the noun clause.
Y'all are a marvelous resource--thanks!!
John
On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
My question is about the context, because depending on the rest of the
sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.
"Both you and your students will discover," to me, implies something that
the teacher and students figure out together. However - in the first
sentence, using YOU means (again, to me) that the two subjects discover
something no one knew before. In the second, using THEY implies that
there's something the teacher knew that the students didn't.
As an example:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know about text
messaging syntax.
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know more about
grammar than they realized.
See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pronouns
Which is correct/sounds better:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
Or should I just re-work the thing?
Thanks,
John
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>John-<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yes, I think in that case I’d opt for “YOU”
as the pronoun. Y’all is inclusive that way, right?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-patty from the north<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>John Crow<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, June 22, 2008 4:32
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Pronouns</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>If I could use my native
Okie language, it would be easier:<br>
<br>
Both you and your students will discover that y'all know more about grammar
than you think you do.<br>
<br>
In other words, what I'm trying to express is that both you--the teacher--and
his/her students will do the discovering. Sounds like, from the
responses, I should opt for "you" as the subject of the noun clause.<br>
<br>
Y'all are a marvelous resource--thanks!!<br>
John<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Patricia Lafayllve <<a
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div link=blue vlink=purple>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>My question is about the context, because depending on the
rest of the sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>"Both you and your students will discover," to me,
implies something that the teacher and students figure out together.
However – in the first sentence, using YOU means (again, to me) that the two
subjects discover something no one knew before. In the second, using THEY
implies that there's something the teacher knew that the students didn't.
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>As an example:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Both you and your students will
discover that YOU know about text messaging syntax.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Both you and your students will
discover that THEY know more about grammar than they realized.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>-patty</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Assembly
for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Crow<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04
AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Pronouns<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Which is
correct/sounds better:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<br>
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<br>
<br>
Or should I just re-work the thing?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
John<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C8D456.5F2C16A0--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:22:11 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns
In-Reply-To: <004501c8d477$e63db6a0$6401a8c0@NEW>
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Up here in northern Minnesota the plural second person is youse. Are
youse guys going to come with?
On Jun 22, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Patricia Lafayllve wrote:
> John-
>
> Yes, I think in that case I’d opt for “YOU” as the pronoun. Y’all
> is inclusive that way, right?
>
> -patty from the north
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 4:32 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Pronouns
>
> If I could use my native Okie language, it would be easier:
>
> Both you and your students will discover that y'all know more about
> grammar than you think you do.
>
> In other words, what I'm trying to express is that both you--the
> teacher--and his/her students will do the discovering. Sounds
> like, from the responses, I should opt for "you" as the subject of
> the noun clause.
>
> Y'all are a marvelous resource--thanks!!
> John
> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Patricia Lafayllve
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> My question is about the context, because depending on the rest of
> the sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.
>
>
>
> "Both you and your students will discover," to me, implies
> something that the teacher and students figure out together.
> However – in the first sentence, using YOU means (again, to me)
> that the two subjects discover something no one knew before. In
> the second, using THEY implies that there's something the teacher
> knew that the students didn't.
>
>
>
> As an example:
>
>
>
> Both you and your students will discover that YOU know about text
> messaging syntax.
> Both you and your students will discover that THEY know more about
> grammar than they realized.
>
>
> See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?
>
>
>
> -patty
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04 AM
>
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Pronouns
>
>
> Which is correct/sounds better:
>
>
>
> 1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
> 2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
>
> Or should I just re-work the thing?
>
> Thanks,
> John
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
Up here in northern Minnesota the plural second person is youse. <i>Are youse guys going to come with?</i><div><i><br></i><div><div>On Jun 22, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Patricia Lafayllve wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">John-<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Yes, I think in that case I’d opt for “YOU” as the pronoun. Y’all is inclusive that way, right?<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">-patty from the north<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:personname><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>John Crow<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, June 22, 2008 4:32 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Pronouns</span></font><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">If I could use my native Okie language, it would be easier:<br><br>Both you and your students will discover that y'all know more about grammar than you think you do.<br><br>In other words, what I'm trying to express is that both you--the teacher--and his/her students will do the discovering. Sounds like, from the responses, I should opt for "you" as the subject of the noun clause.<br><br>Y'all are a marvelous resource--thanks!!<br>John<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Patricia Lafayllve <<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">My question is about the context, because depending on the rest of the sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">"Both you and your students will discover," to me, implies something that the teacher and students figure out together. However – in the first sentence, using YOU means (again, to me) that the two subjects discover something no one knew before. In the second, using THEY implies that there's something the teacher knew that the students didn't. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">As an example:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p><ol start="1" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0in; "><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: navy; margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Both you and your students will discover that YOU know about text messaging syntax.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: navy; margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Both you and your students will discover that THEY know more about grammar than they realized.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li></ol><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">-patty</span></font><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></font></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:personname><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">[log in to unmask]</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>John Crow<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Pronouns<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Which is correct/sounds better:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br><br>1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<br>2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<br><br>Or should I just re-work the thing?<br><br>Thanks,<br>John<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Visit ATEG's web site at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Visit ATEG's web site at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list"<p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</p></o:smarttagtype></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:21:11 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 20 Jun 2008 to 21 Jun 2008 (#2008-140)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I would feel comfortable saying, " Both you and your students will discover
that YOU ALL know . . .; otherwise, I would reword.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 20 Jun 2008 to 21 Jun 2008 (#2008-140)
There are 5 messages totalling 865 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Pronouns (3)
2. The Death of the Sentence? and the importance of
thecompetence-performance
distinction (2)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 09:04:01 -0400
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pronouns
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Which is correct/sounds better:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
Or should I just re-work the thing?
Thanks,
John
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Which is correct/sounds better:<br><br>1. Both you and your students
will discover that YOU know . . .<br>2. Both you and your students
will discover that THEY know . . .<br><br>Or should I just re-work the
thing?<br><br>
Thanks,<br>John<br>
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------=_Part_19848_18203690.1214053441163--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:43:27 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns
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John,
I'd say it depends on whether you intend "you" to be included in who "knows." Will the teacher discover that he or she knows something or that the students know something?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: 2008-06-21 09:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pronouns
Which is correct/sounds better:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
Or should I just re-work the thing?
Thanks,
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’d say it depends on whether you intend “you” to be included in
who “knows.” Will the teacher discover that he or she knows something or that
the students know something?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Crow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2008-06-21 09:04<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Pronouns<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Which is correct/sounds better:<br>
<br>
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<br>
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<br>
<br>
Or should I just re-work the thing?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
John<br>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:14:54 -0400
From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns
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My question is about the context, because depending on the rest of the
sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.
"Both you and your students will discover," to me, implies something that
the teacher and students figure out together. However - in the first
sentence, using YOU means (again, to me) that the two subjects discover
something no one knew before. In the second, using THEY implies that
there's something the teacher knew that the students didn't.
As an example:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know about text
messaging syntax.
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know more about
grammar than they realized.
See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pronouns
Which is correct/sounds better:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
Or should I just re-work the thing?
Thanks,
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My question is about the context, because
depending on the rest of the sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“Both you and your students will
discover,” to me, implies something that the teacher and students figure
out together. However – in the first sentence, using YOU means
(again, to me) that the two subjects discover something no one knew
before. In the second, using THEY implies that there’s something
the teacher knew that the students didn’t. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As an example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Both
you and your students will discover that YOU know about text messaging
syntax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Both
you and your students will discover that THEY know more about grammar than
they realized.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>See what I mean, there? Or am I
over-thinking this?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-patty<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>John Crow<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Pronouns</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Which is correct/sounds better:<br>
<br>
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<br>
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<br>
<br>
Or should I just re-work the thing?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
John<br>
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------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C8D398.6AB69720--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:25:04 -0500
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance of
thecompetence-performance distinction
I am sorry I am coming late to this discussion. I agree with everything that has been said. My colleague Jim Kenkel and I have been looking at a collection of essays written by first year native and non-native speaking college students to understand the non-standard punctuation. ALL of the essays had sentences that were punctuated according to the standard rules. Those that were non-standard appeared to be following principles to show the relationship between various ideas.
I am very reticent to question Herb, but there are reasons why the concept of the sentence is more that a "methodological choice." It is a category that reflects English speakers knowledge of the language.
Herb writes:
[The S (for sentence)] represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description. In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons, etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath.
***
Note the use of the word "tend." I think Herb gives away too much with that word.
Do we need the category of "sentence" (or clause) to describe what people do with they speak?
A couple of thought experiences.
I. Try to describe well-formed tag questions (a structure that almost exclusively in the oral language) in English without the use of the category sentence. You know what tag questions are, don't you? Tag questions are easy to describe, aren't they?
II. Try to describe well-formed questions (again forms that are very frequent in the oral language) in English without the use of the category sentence. Some sentences to consider in your description.
1) Is the woman from France?
2) Does the woman live next door?
3) Is the woman who lives next door from France?
4) Does the woman who is from France live next door?
5) Yesterday, did the woman leave?
III. Try to describe the antecedents of her and herself in the following strings without reference to sentence. (I recognize that these sentences may not be common in the oral language, but they can be easily understood in the oral language.)
"herself" has to refer to Mary in the following.
6) Mary sees herself on television.
7) Mary wants to see herself on television.
"her" cannot refer to Mary.
8) Mary sees her on television.
9) Mary wants to see her on televison.
"herself" has to refer to Jane.
10) Mary wants Jane to see herself on television. (but remember 7)
"her" can refer to Mary
11) Mary wants Jane to see her on television. (but remember 9)
****
I recognize that I am suggesting the competence-performance distinction is crucial. By the way, I am not alone in this regard. The competence-performance distinction is the basis for the suggestions that De Beaugrande in his "Forward to the basics" paper and Noguchi in his NCTE book use for their suggestions in how to show students how to determine whether a string they have written is an appropriate sentence.
Finally, given what I have written above, I have no idea what the following means:
". . . what a sentence can be depends very much on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other things."
Do the principles of well-formed tag questions, yes-no questions, and the antecedents of personal pronouns and antecedents change depending on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting?
Obviously, the frequency of the use of various forms change and some forms are very rare in some kinds of discourse (just like certain lexical items), but I have no idea how medium, genre, social setting changes the principles for any grammatical structure in English.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:16:38 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance of
thecompetence-performance distinction
Bob,
Thanks for your thoughtful critique of my comments and your vigorous defense of the sentence as a syntactic unit. I can't disagree with any of what you've argued. There is no question that the sentence is an important unit, and when we're talking about morpho-syntactic phenomena it is the domain over which and within which large numbers of grammatical phenomena are defined. I'd probably even agree that there is a set of minimal clause types that we can define for a particular language that correspond to the speech acts that the language defines morphosyntactically--or did I just commit a tautology? My argument is not with the reality or the importance of the sentence as a linguistic unit; rather it is with the claim that S or IP or CP is the starting point for grammar. As a domain over which to define a theory of syntax it certainly makes good sense. But as a domain, it is an a priori that is chosen for methodological reasons, namely, because, as you have pointed out, so many constraints, rules, and relationships can be defined with rigor within that domain.
But let's look at phenomena that have syntactic consequences within sentences but that cannot be defined within the domain of the sentence: focus, topicality, reference, and tense, to start with. Many of the consequences for these can all be described at the sentence level for a particular language, but the larger phenomena are phenomena of discourse and of pragmatics, rendering their sentential effects epiphenomena.
But part of what I was getting at comes from my own experience working with speakers of other languages as well as with English speakers at various levels of education and development. My note on my Pashto student and language consultant was meant to suggest that what works as a well-formed sentence in one social milieu, for example, discourse around a cooking fire in the evening in a village somewhere and what works in another, say a professional sociologist writing for publication in a journal, defines and permits very different syntactic phenomena. A complex sentence with perhaps more than one clause in passive voice would simply not be comprehended, much less produced by an elder telling a folktale to the folk seated around the fire. This has nothing to do, obviously, with intelligence; it has to do with media, genre, and situation, as well as language-specific training. The same can be said for special morphosyntactic phenomena related to initiation rites, relationships between the sexes, etc. Even within literary written English, compare Henry James and Ernest Hemingway; their very different approaches to the sentence in discourse reflects not just differences in style but even in world view, some of which can be quite conscious.
Of course, a comprehensive grammar must be able to describe all of this, but such a grammar has never yet been written. Huddleston&Pullum or Quirk et al. describe standard written English pretty thoroughly, but they do not even attempt to work across a full range of genres or registers.
As to competence and performance, perhaps my jaundiced view reflects the times in which I learned our craft, the mid-60s to early 70s. Syntactic theory was changing rapidly during that period, even moreso than now, and there were competing approaches growing up that were making interesting claims demanding response, all before the generative semantics vs. autonomous syntax war redefined the theory landscape. It was an exciting time to be doing linguistics, but one of the disagreements that arose regularly at conferences, in classrooms, and even in publication was where the line was drawn between competence and performance. Broadly put, anything that your theory didn't treat belonged in performance. Anything it did was part of competence. I remember having an argument in a syntax class with Barbara Partee in which I was trying to convince her that the grammar must take into account shifts in stress and accent in describing the behavior of quantifiers and negation. Barbara dismissed those variables as "mere performance." A few years ago I was interviewing job candidates at the Winter LSA in Chicago, and Joan Bresnan delivered the presidential address in which she argued that grammatical theory now could and must account for such shifts in stress and accent. Thus over the course of my career, the interaction of stress and accent with quantifiers, negation, and focus has shifted quite clearly from performance to competence.
I recognize that theories change as they are tested, and as they change they gain in explanatory power, and this is, of course, what has happened. But it does rather undermine the notion competence vs. performance. This is not to say that native speakers don't have intuitions of grammaticality. Clearly they do, but these intuitions are grounded, I suspect, in something more broadly cognitive and not in the endlessly shifting convenience of the competence/performance borderline. What has been described as the competence/performance dichotomy is simply too simplistic to account for human linguistic behavior. At the very least these categories have to exist as regions on a continuum, but I'm not sure that even that suggestion isn't merely an attempt to save a notion that now has half a century of literature.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: 2008-06-21 12:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance of thecompetence-performance distinction
I am sorry I am coming late to this discussion. I agree with everything that has been said. My colleague Jim Kenkel and I have been looking at a collection of essays written by first year native and non-native speaking college students to understand the non-standard punctuation. ALL of the essays had sentences that were punctuated according to the standard rules. Those that were non-standard appeared to be following principles to show the relationship between various ideas.
I am very reticent to question Herb, but there are reasons why the concept of the sentence is more that a "methodological choice." It is a category that reflects English speakers knowledge of the language.
Herb writes:
[The S (for sentence)] represented a unit within which certain relationships, structures, and constraints could be discussed without the inconvenience of answering questions about discourse. This usually got us into an argument about competence and performance, which I held, and hold, to be a corollary of the methodological choice of S as the domain of analysis and description. In informal speech, in contrast to formal lectures, addresses, sermons, etc., sentences tend to correspond to the breath group, so that the spoken sentence tends to be what one can say in one breath.
***
Note the use of the word "tend." I think Herb gives away too much with that word.
Do we need the category of "sentence" (or clause) to describe what people do with they speak?
A couple of thought experiences.
I. Try to describe well-formed tag questions (a structure that almost exclusively in the oral language) in English without the use of the category sentence. You know what tag questions are, don't you? Tag questions are easy to describe, aren't they?
II. Try to describe well-formed questions (again forms that are very frequent in the oral language) in English without the use of the category sentence. Some sentences to consider in your description.
1) Is the woman from France?
2) Does the woman live next door?
3) Is the woman who lives next door from France?
4) Does the woman who is from France live next door?
5) Yesterday, did the woman leave?
III. Try to describe the antecedents of her and herself in the following strings without reference to sentence. (I recognize that these sentences may not be common in the oral language, but they can be easily understood in the oral language.)
"herself" has to refer to Mary in the following.
6) Mary sees herself on television.
7) Mary wants to see herself on television.
"her" cannot refer to Mary.
8) Mary sees her on television.
9) Mary wants to see her on televison.
"herself" has to refer to Jane.
10) Mary wants Jane to see herself on television. (but remember 7)
"her" can refer to Mary
11) Mary wants Jane to see her on television. (but remember 9)
****
I recognize that I am suggesting the competence-performance distinction is crucial. By the way, I am not alone in this regard. The competence-performance distinction is the basis for the suggestions that De Beaugrande in his "Forward to the basics" paper and Noguchi in his NCTE book use for their suggestions in how to show students how to determine whether a string they have written is an appropriate sentence.
Finally, given what I have written above, I have no idea what the following means:
". . . what a sentence can be depends very much on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting, among other things."
Do the principles of well-formed tag questions, yes-no questions, and the antecedents of personal pronouns and antecedents change depending on medium, genre, discourse pragmatics, and social setting?
Obviously, the frequency of the use of various forms change and some forms are very rare in some kinds of discourse (just like certain lexical items), but I have no idea how medium, genre, social setting changes the principles for any grammatical structure in English.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 20 Jun 2008 to 21 Jun 2008 (#2008-140)
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:46:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance
ofthecompetence-performance distinction
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Herb,
Thank you for your response. Theories clearly change. I have no problem with the fact that the distinction of competence and performance might be hard to make and has changed over time.
As someone who has taught a lot of writing to both native and non-native speakers, I know I am dealing with issues of both competence and performance.
I agree with the following list that cannot be defined within the domain of sentence.
***
But let's look at phenomena that have syntactic consequences within sentences but that cannot be defined within the domain of the sentence: focus, topicality, reference, and tense, to start with. Many of the consequences for these can all be described at the sentence level for a particular language, but the larger phenomena are phenomena of discourse and of pragmatics, rendering their sentential effects epiphenomena.
***
In fact, Jim Kenkel and I have tried to look at how both native and non-native speakers try to achieve focus and topicality without the "standard" grammatical constructions. We have argued that labelling non-standard constructions as a "mixed constructions" or "fragment" or "run-on" are not very helpful because such labels do not provide any insight why developing writings have such forms in their writing.
I think the following suggests there is a competence-performance distinction.
***
This is not to say that native speakers don't have intuitions of grammaticality. Clearly they do, but these intuitions are grounded, I suspect, in something more broadly cognitive and not in the endlessly shifting convenience of the competence/performance borderline.
***
I have no idea what final statement might mean. I have no idea what "more broadly cognitive" might explain the facts about the pronoun-antecedent relationships in the sentences I gave in my last post.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:30:53 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pronouns
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That's interesting! I always thought "youse guys" was a New York City thing (that's where I grew up and heard it often).
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:22:11 PM
Subject: Re: Pronouns
Up here in northern Minnesota the plural second person is youse. Are youse guys going to come with?
On Jun 22, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Patricia Lafayllve wrote:
John-
Yes, I think in that case I’d opt for “YOU” as the pronoun. Y’all is inclusive that way, right?
-patty from the north
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 4:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pronouns
If I could use my native Okie language, it would be easier:
Both you and your students will discover that y'all know more about grammar than you think you do.
In other words, what I'm trying to express is that both you--the teacher--and his/her students will do the discovering. Sounds like, from the responses, I should opt for "you" as the subject of the noun clause.
Y'all are a marvelous resource--thanks!!
John
On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
My question is about the context, because depending on the rest of the sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.
"Both you and your students will discover," to me, implies something that the teacher and students figure out together. However – in the first sentence, using YOU means (again, to me) that the two subjects discover something no one knew before. In the second, using THEY implies that there's something the teacher knew that the students didn't.
As an example:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know about text messaging syntax.
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know more about grammar than they realized.
See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?
-patty
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pronouns
Which is correct/sounds better:
1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .
2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .
Or should I just re-work the thing?
Thanks,
John
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><P>That's interesting! I always thought "youse guys" was a New York City thing (that's where I grew up and heard it often).</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Paul D.</P>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, times, serif"><BR><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]><BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:22:11 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Pronouns<BR><BR>Up here in northern Minnesota the plural second person is youse. <I>Are youse guys going to come with?</I>
<DIV><I><BR></I>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jun 22, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Patricia Lafayllve wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 16px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2">
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">John-</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yes, I think in that case I’d opt for “YOU” as the pronoun. Y’all is inclusive that way, right?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-patty from the north</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></B>John Crow<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Sunday, June 22, 2008 4:32 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: Pronouns</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">If I could use my native Okie language, it would be easier:<BR><BR>Both you and your students will discover that y'all know more about grammar than you think you do.<BR><BR>In other words, what I'm trying to express is that both you--the teacher--and his/her students will do the discovering. Sounds like, from the responses, I should opt for "you" as the subject of the noun clause.<BR><BR>Y'all are a marvelous resource--thanks!!<BR>John</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Patricia Lafayllve <<A style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My question is about the context, because depending on the rest of the sentence, both 1 and 2 could be fine.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"Both you and your students will discover," to me, implies something that the teacher and students figure out together. However – in the first sentence, using YOU means (again, to me) that the two subjects discover something no one knew before. In the second, using THEY implies that there's something the teacher knew that the students didn't. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As an example:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<OL style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in" type=1>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Both you and your students will discover that YOU know about text messaging syntax.</SPAN></FONT></LI>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Both you and your students will discover that THEY know more about grammar than they realized.</SPAN></FONT></LI></OL>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">See what I mean, there? Or am I over-thinking this?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-patty</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[mailto:<A style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>]<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></B>John Crow<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:04 AM</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Pronouns</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Which is correct/sounds better:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>1. Both you and your students will discover that YOU know . . .<BR>2. Both you and your students will discover that THEY know . . .<BR><BR>Or should I just re-work the thing?<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>John</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:22:47 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importance
ofthecompetence-performance distinction
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Bob, Herb, et al.:
Like Herb (and for most of the same reasons Herb has already discussed),
I have trouble accepting "sentenceness" as something that pre-exists our
definitions as a kind of fundamental category, at least in the way we've
traditionally defined sentences. Cultural categories *always* seem
natural to those accustomed to them, so the fact that sentences seem an
"intuitively obvious" category doesn't mean that they are necessarily
givens (in other words, saying sentences are a basic unit of human
language might be a bit like saying that desserts are a basic unit of
human cuisine). "Sentence" isn't really the same as "enough language to
get the job done," and it's the latter that has the greater chance (I
think) of being universal.
There are two problems in particular that I've seen occurring repeatedly
in linguistic discussions of grammar; they aren't really problems if one
takes "sentence" as a label for something that's useful to work with as
a methodological unit, but they are real issues if claims are made about
the "reality" of what the label refers to.
The first of these is the way that analyses relying on ellipsis are
motivated by ideas of what constitutes a sentence, but then are
reconceptualized as *supporting* the ideas that motivated them in the
first place (apologies for returning to ellipsis, since I've posted on
it too many times before, but it's relevant here. Honest. No, really).
The "less-than-sentence-but-still-good" examples that Herb, Craig, and
others have pointed out can usually be analyzed as full sentences with
elided parts -- but only if one starts with the assumption that since
those utterances *sound* okay in context, they must therefore be
sentences in the way we've chosen to define sentences, and hence adding
invisible parts is warranted. There's nothing wrong with a carefully
constrained ellipsis argument, but there IS something wrong with using
it to support one's claims of what a full sentence is -- it's circular
reasoning.
The other is the effect of using a single pair of opposing terms like
"competence vs. performance." Setting up a binary opposition encourages
people to think that anything that is not A is by necessity B, with some
of the consequences that Herb has already mentioned. There's one sense
of "performance" in which the term encompasses speaker "goofs": slips of
the tongue, false starts, the occasional fit of coughing interrupting an
utterance and the like. But once we make a definition of sentence,
anything that diverges from that definition then becomes a "goof" in a
way that it wasn't before. Saying that slips of the tongue don't
necessarily fall within the purview of your theory is a very different
matter than saying that "ya eat yet?" doesn't, but having only the one
pair of terms leads us to group both as "performance" (or to rescue the
second via an ellipsis argument). A construct of the theory
("sentencehood") becomes the basis on which data is judged *relevant* to
arguments about whether the construct itself is valid. Once that
happens, you don't have a theory anymore; you have a faith (and it's a
really boring, nerdy one, without even a decent holiday attached).
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:51:59 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
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It might very well be the case that Bill is right when he writes the following:
*******
I have trouble accepting "sentenceness" as something that pre-exists our
definitions as a kind of fundamental category, at least in the way we've
traditionally defined sentences.
*******
If the definition of a sentence depends on whether we can begin the string with a capital letter and end it with a period,
then Bill is definitely right.
However, the data I cited didn't require that definition. I proposed that one cannot describe how tag questions are formed, how yes-no questions are formed, or the properties of certain kinds of pronouns without the category of a sentence/clause. I can be wrong, but I notice that Bill does not provide an explanation for my examples. Herb agreed with the point I made with those examples. And, I note that tag questions and yes-no questions are really common in the oral language.
Because I find the performance-competence distinction useful. I need to comment on the second problem Bill identifies.
The other [problem] is the effect of using a single pair of opposing terms like
"competence vs. performance." Setting up a binary opposition encourages
people to think that anything that is not A is by necessity B, with some
of the consequences that Herb has already mentioned. There's one sense
of "performance" in which the term encompasses speaker "goofs": slips of
the tongue, false starts, the occasional fit of coughing interrupting an
utterance and the like. But once we make a definition of sentence,
anything that diverges from that definition then becomes a "goof" in a
way that it wasn't before. Saying that slips of the tongue don't
necessarily fall within the purview of your theory is a very different
matter than saying that "ya eat yet?" doesn't, but having only the one
pair of terms leads us to group both as "performance" (or to rescue the
second via an ellipsis argument). A construct of the theory
("sentencehood") becomes the basis on which data is judged *relevant* to
arguments about whether the construct itself is valid. Once that
happens, you don't have a theory anymore; you have a faith (and it's a
really boring, nerdy one, without even a decent holiday attached).
****
1) Theories change over time. Herb correctly showed that what is part of competence and what is performance have changed over time. I don't understand why that is a problem.
2) The issue of "goofs" is interesting here. I can't tell whether Bill is suggesting that we need a theory of grammar that explains every utterance a speaker of the language makes. I know of no grammar that attempts a grammar that does that.
His example "ya eat yet" is interesting. Sounds OK to me. I'm sure I have uttered it. Do we have any intuitions about it? (Intuitions are a way to tap into competence.) What is the possible response to that question? (It is redundant to do this with a negative response.)
a) Ya, I did
b) Ya, I do.
(b) is completely unacceptable to me. I prefer (a). If your judgments are the same as mine, why might that be the case? Notice "did" is a past tense form and there is no past tense form in the question.
3) "Relevant" data are part of any theory. A theory is valued to the degree it can provide an explanation for the greatest amount of data. If data are presented that the theory should explain and it doesn't, then the inadequacy of the theory is revealed and people attempt to construct a better theory.
I return to tag questions, yes-no questions, and properties of certain pronouns. The construct "sentence/clause" is crucial, I think, to describe these constructs. That is not faith. I could be wrong, but I have never read a description of them that don't use the concept of sentence.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 03:17:20 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Youse guysATEG Digest - 22 Jun 2008 to 23 Jun 2008 (#2008-142)
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I have only heard "Youse guys" in Brooklyn; however, I dated a young lady
from Colorado in high school in Florida, whose speech was reasonably
Southern except for her referring to a group--even of all girls--as "You
guys."
Scott
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:45:46 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
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Bob,
In certain contexts, "ya eat yet" might be followed by "ya, I do."
Presume, for example, someone who is suffering a medical condition that
has made eating impossible for awhile. "You sit up yet? You eat yet?"
Both could be answered present tense. In this case, our intuitions are
as much about context as they are about "correct forms."
The approaches to grammar I like the best (functional and cognitive) do
a great deal of work with the clause as central, and they also respect
the intuitive or automatic or unconscious nature of language use.
I also agree very much with your observation that the "errors" students
make are thoughtful and often purposeful, that there is an underlying
ability that they bring to the task that must be respected if we are
going to do our job as teachers.
Is that a fair description of consensus? Can we agree to disagree
about the rest? For those on the list who are not well schooled in
these debates, what exactly is at stake, if anything?
Craig
It might very well be the case that Bill is right when he writes the
> following:
>
> *******
> I have trouble accepting "sentenceness" as something that pre-exists our
> definitions as a kind of fundamental category, at least in the way we've
> traditionally defined sentences.
> *******
> If the definition of a sentence depends on whether we can begin the string
> with a capital letter and end it with a period,
> then Bill is definitely right.
>
> However, the data I cited didn't require that definition. I proposed
> that one cannot describe how tag questions are formed, how yes-no
> questions are formed, or the properties of certain kinds of pronouns
> without the category of a sentence/clause. I can be wrong, but I notice
> that Bill does not provide an explanation for my examples. Herb agreed
> with the point I made with those examples. And, I note that tag questions
> and yes-no questions are really common in the oral language.
>
> Because I find the performance-competence distinction useful. I need to
> comment on the second problem Bill identifies.
>
>
> The other [problem] is the effect of using a single pair of opposing terms
> like
> "competence vs. performance." Setting up a binary opposition encourages
> people to think that anything that is not A is by necessity B, with some
> of the consequences that Herb has already mentioned. There's one sense
> of "performance" in which the term encompasses speaker "goofs": slips of
> the tongue, false starts, the occasional fit of coughing interrupting an
> utterance and the like. But once we make a definition of sentence,
> anything that diverges from that definition then becomes a "goof" in a
> way that it wasn't before. Saying that slips of the tongue don't
> necessarily fall within the purview of your theory is a very different
> matter than saying that "ya eat yet?" doesn't, but having only the one
> pair of terms leads us to group both as "performance" (or to rescue the
> second via an ellipsis argument). A construct of the theory
> ("sentencehood") becomes the basis on which data is judged *relevant* to
> arguments about whether the construct itself is valid. Once that
> happens, you don't have a theory anymore; you have a faith (and it's a
> really boring, nerdy one, without even a decent holiday attached).
>
> ****
> 1) Theories change over time. Herb correctly showed that what is part of
> competence and what is performance have changed over time. I don't
> understand why that is a problem.
>
> 2) The issue of "goofs" is interesting here. I can't tell whether Bill is
> suggesting that we need a theory of grammar that explains every utterance
> a speaker of the language makes. I know of no grammar that attempts a
> grammar that does that.
>
> His example "ya eat yet" is interesting. Sounds OK to me. I'm sure I have
> uttered it. Do we have any intuitions about it? (Intuitions are a way to
> tap into competence.) What is the possible response to that question?
> (It is redundant to do this with a negative response.)
>
> a) Ya, I did
> b) Ya, I do.
>
> (b) is completely unacceptable to me. I prefer (a). If your judgments
> are the same as mine, why might that be the case? Notice "did" is a past
> tense form and there is no past tense form in the question.
>
> 3) "Relevant" data are part of any theory. A theory is valued to the
> degree it can provide an explanation for the greatest amount of data. If
> data are presented that the theory should explain and it doesn't, then the
> inadequacy of the theory is revealed and people attempt to construct a
> better theory.
>
> I return to tag questions, yes-no questions, and properties of certain
> pronouns. The construct "sentence/clause" is crucial, I think, to
> describe these constructs. That is not faith. I could be wrong, but I have
> never read a description of them that don't use the concept of sentence.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:10:12 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
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Hello everyone.
I'm following this discussion with keen interest, but for the sake of
clarity (in my email, at least!) I am going to cut out things I am not
directly replying to...
Regarding this:
It might very well be the case that Bill is right when he writes the
following:
*******
I have trouble accepting "sentenceness" as something that pre-exists our
definitions as a kind of fundamental category, at least in the way we've
traditionally defined sentences.
*******
If the definition of a sentence depends on whether we can begin the string
with a capital letter and end it with a period,
then Bill is definitely right.
I say:
Here's where I start feeling a bit murky, myself. Maybe if I provide an
example of what I am talking about on my end, it will help...
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, manuscript A:
63. Her Marcus se godspellere forţferde (http://asc.jebbo.co.uk/a/a-L.html)
Translates to modern English as:
A.D. 63. This year Mark the evangelist departed this life.
(http://omacl.org/Anglo/part1.html)
Now, leaving aside the historical complications for the sake of argument
(the Chronicle was compiled over a lengthy period of time, by multiple
authors, etc), my question is this:
How is the entry above NOT a sentence?
This is why I keep challenging what the phrase "traditionally defined
sentence" means. My "personal headspace" suggests that the line above (and
other forms of writing like it) pre-date what we're now using as
"traditional definitions for the sentence." Yet, the entry cited above
meets all the definitions of a sentence that I can think of.
Or am I the one over-thinking this? (It's certainly possible!)
-patty
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:39:43 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
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Bob,
When someone replies to "Ya eat yet?" with "Yeah I did," the fact that
the reply has tense-marking does not, in and of itself, establish that
tense-marking was present but elided in the question. That's certainly
*an* explanation, but not the only one. Take the following exchange:
Cletus: I want to read up on an ancient civilization, and I can't decide
which one.
Bocephus: How about the Romans?
Cletus: Nah, they were just obnoxious.
The past tense in the last sentence isn't triggered by any tense in a
previous sentence; instead, it's triggered by the speakers' knowledge of
context. Quick replies and tag questions do, of course, replicate the
initial auxiliary (if there is one) and the tense marking, but that
doesn't *have* to be a result of a kind of syntactic copying operation;
unless sentence-creation is entirely divorced from semantics, speakers
will always have access to context. The "subject + first aux" combo
bears a particularly heavy functional load in English, since we use it
to manipulate the status of utterances as exchanges (I'm badly
paraphrasing Halliday here); if I'm going to question one of your
assertions, the standard techniques all involve using a subject plus an
appropriate auxiliary. But that's a statement about how speakers use
"S+Aux" combos in English discourse, not about ellipsis, or the
boundaries of sentences. If we hear footsteps in the hall, and I look up
and say, "Bob, isn't it?" I'm not necessarily *thinking* "That's Bob in
the hallway, isn't it?" Instead, in the right context, "Bob" counts as
an assertion, and the *kind* of assertion (existence, ability etc.)
determines the tag.
Also, with tag questions, I *think* you can cases in which the domain
being "tagged" is clearly a clause, but not an independent one (if this
one seems like a stretch, I do have some cases in which a quick reply
like "No he's not" works with a subordinate clause):
We're cancelling the play because the lead actor is sick, isn't he?
Now, I don't mind the idea that clauses are a de facto basic unit in
grammar -- that's bound into that notion of "enough language given the
context" -- but there's a major difference between "clause" and
"sentence." Tags and quick contradictions seem to target clauses that
make foregrounded assertions -- they don't work at all, for example,
with restrictive relative clauses. If the "natural domain" for such
phenomena is something like "foregrounded clause with accompanying fully
backgrounded clauses," we certainly have something interesting, but it's
not a sentence in the traditional sense. It's not even a T-unit,
although I realize that definition sounds like that for T-units (the
difference is in the role of contradictable dependent clauses). And it
positions the domain of tags and contradictions relative to their
discourse function.
One last point: Intuitive judgments of grammaticality do not simply
access one's grammatical competence -- they're heavily influenced by a
number of factors. One of the reasons corpus work is so important is
that one *can't* simply accept grammaticality judgments as immune from
social conventions. Quite a number of my students have no problem
telling me that certain sentences are ungrammatical that in fact occur
in formal writing quite frequently ("Seldom had he seen that") -- to
them, it's ungrammatical because they haven't encountered the pattern
before. That's not a dialect issue, that's a familiarity issue -- but
they're JUST as confident about their judgment as any linguist creating
an example set (and this isn't a situation where you can ascribe their
"misjudgment" to performance, since that would be to create another
circular argument). There are quite a number of language groups whose
speakers become quite baffled when linguists ask them to make
grammaticality judgments about their own language -- the idea of such a
judgment is itself a cultural artifact. The move from "I don't like it"
to "It's wrong" is an easy one, and there's a long, and problematic,
history of people adding the additional step of "It's wrong because it
violates <natural order> / <God's Will> / <human nature>." Whenever we
say "Sentence X is ungrammatical," we *should* worry about whether we're
saying the equivalent of "Rice is digestible by most humans," or
instead, "It's a mistake to wear white shoes after Labor Day" (if
there's a Universal Fashion Faculty, I'm deficient, and don't have
access to it).
And a post-final note: We still have no decent grammatical holiday.
X-Bar-mas? Clausekkah?
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
It might very well be the case that Bill is right when he writes the
following:
*******
I have trouble accepting "sentenceness" as something that pre-exists our
definitions as a kind of fundamental category, at least in the way we've
traditionally defined sentences.
*******
If the definition of a sentence depends on whether we can begin the
string with a capital letter and end it with a period,
then Bill is definitely right.
However, the data I cited didn't require that definition. I proposed
that one cannot describe how tag questions are formed, how yes-no
questions are formed, or the properties of certain kinds of pronouns
without the category of a sentence/clause. I can be wrong, but I notice
that Bill does not provide an explanation for my examples. Herb agreed
with the point I made with those examples. And, I note that tag
questions and yes-no questions are really common in the oral language.
Because I find the performance-competence distinction useful. I need to
comment on the second problem Bill identifies.
The other [problem] is the effect of using a single pair of opposing
terms like
"competence vs. performance." Setting up a binary opposition encourages
people to think that anything that is not A is by necessity B, with some
of the consequences that Herb has already mentioned. There's one sense
of "performance" in which the term encompasses speaker "goofs": slips of
the tongue, false starts, the occasional fit of coughing interrupting an
utterance and the like. But once we make a definition of sentence,
anything that diverges from that definition then becomes a "goof" in a
way that it wasn't before. Saying that slips of the tongue don't
necessarily fall within the purview of your theory is a very different
matter than saying that "ya eat yet?" doesn't, but having only the one
pair of terms leads us to group both as "performance" (or to rescue the
second via an ellipsis argument). A construct of the theory
("sentencehood") becomes the basis on which data is judged *relevant* to
arguments about whether the construct itself is valid. Once that
happens, you don't have a theory anymore; you have a faith (and it's a
really boring, nerdy one, without even a decent holiday attached).
****
1) Theories change over time. Herb correctly showed that what is part
of competence and what is performance have changed over time. I don't
understand why that is a problem.
2) The issue of "goofs" is interesting here. I can't tell whether Bill
is suggesting that we need a theory of grammar that explains every
utterance a speaker of the language makes. I know of no grammar that
attempts a grammar that does that.
His example "ya eat yet" is interesting. Sounds OK to me. I'm sure I
have uttered it. Do we have any intuitions about it? (Intuitions are a
way to tap into competence.) What is the possible response to that
question? (It is redundant to do this with a negative response.)
a) Ya, I did
b) Ya, I do.
(b) is completely unacceptable to me. I prefer (a). If your
judgments are the same as mine, why might that be the case? Notice
"did" is a past tense form and there is no past tense form in the
question.
3) "Relevant" data are part of any theory. A theory is valued to the
degree it can provide an explanation for the greatest amount of data.
If data are presented that the theory should explain and it doesn't,
then the inadequacy of the theory is revealed and people attempt to
construct a better theory.
I return to tag questions, yes-no questions, and properties of certain
pronouns. The construct "sentence/clause" is crucial, I think, to
describe these constructs. That is not faith. I could be wrong, but I
have never read a description of them that don't use the concept of
sentence.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:05:12 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
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Patricia,
I certainly don't mean to say that before the Renaissance, people didn't make full assertions, ask questions, and the like -- as one of the previous posters remarked, categories like "assertion" do seem fundamental. Take the most recalcitrant Roman monument inscription (the kind that's just row after row of all-capital letters with no spaces) and you can pick out chains of assertions, some of which have additional background assertions linked to them, and so forth. If we take a section of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and translate it to modern English, there are many points in which we can rather uncomplicatedly create a translation with standard, punctuated sentences. The Chronicle was compiled from the marginal annotations monks made in the monastery calendars and the like, and if you're going to make a single assertion about what happened in year X, and you have in mind an audience that might be reading what you write years after you've died, what you write is probably going to be exactly what modern text practices would call a sentence. "In this year, a two-headed calf was born in Wixbridge."
What happened in the development of the modern notion of the sentence, I think, is a move from "those are good breaking points" to "those are THE primary breaking points, and there are specific marks that go with them" -- the kind of move that, for example, forces the grammarian to decide whether "although" and "however" should have the same punctuation options. Some of the other Chronicle sections, like the one detailing the altercation between Cynewulf and Cyneheard, don't resolve into sentences quite so unambiguously. You clearly have a string of clauses in the original (give or take a few cloudy bits due to the writer's reliance on pronouns in that piece), but you can see more than one arrangement that would work for a modern translation. I've taught Old English a number of times, and students inevitably want to know the *right* arrangement (there are definitely wrong arrangements, but that's a different thing entirely). Their expectation is based on modern notions of the sentence; I suspect to the Chroniclers, if you read it and could follow the story, it was fine.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Patricia Lafayllve
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
Hello everyone.
I'm following this discussion with keen interest, but for the sake of
clarity (in my email, at least!) I am going to cut out things I am not
directly replying to...
Regarding this:
It might very well be the case that Bill is right when he writes the
following:
*******
I have trouble accepting "sentenceness" as something that pre-exists our
definitions as a kind of fundamental category, at least in the way we've
traditionally defined sentences.
*******
If the definition of a sentence depends on whether we can begin the string
with a capital letter and end it with a period,
then Bill is definitely right.
I say:
Here's where I start feeling a bit murky, myself. Maybe if I provide an
example of what I am talking about on my end, it will help...
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, manuscript A:
63. Her Marcus se godspellere forţferde (http://asc.jebbo.co.uk/a/a-L.html)
Translates to modern English as:
A.D. 63. This year Mark the evangelist departed this life.
(http://omacl.org/Anglo/part1.html)
Now, leaving aside the historical complications for the sake of argument
(the Chronicle was compiled over a lengthy period of time, by multiple
authors, etc), my question is this:
How is the entry above NOT a sentence?
This is why I keep challenging what the phrase "traditionally defined
sentence" means. My "personal headspace" suggests that the line above (and
other forms of writing like it) pre-date what we're now using as
"traditional definitions for the sentence." Yet, the entry cited above
meets all the definitions of a sentence that I can think of.
Or am I the one over-thinking this? (It's certainly possible!)
-patty
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:28:03 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Have you dined? {Richard Betting related}
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At 04:39 PM 6/24/2008, Spruiell, William C wrote: . . .
>When someone replies to "Ya eat yet?" with "Yeah I did," . . .
DD: I urge all to rush out and buy or steal, or whatever, Professor
Richard betting's book, "Grammar Today: The New American Language and
Grammar Primer." ISBN 9780979993602. It is child's play to the more
experienced linguistics here, but for the rest of us, it is a
fascinating introduction to the problems here being discussed. Would
be a great High School text for the advanced and higher IQ students,
and great for University Freshmen. Well I guess you would say I
thoroughly enjoyed it. The part on what is the definition of a
sentence is worth the price of admission. The part on tonality
definition of what constitutes a sentence, mind boggling. {It is a
sad thing to lose DD's mind or for his never having one, so to say.}
I was asked by my ROKAF advisees in Korea, "What means the greeting,
"Cheat jet? No chew?" Of course it was perfectly understandable to an
American GI. "Did you eat, yet? No, did you?" I recall asking my
Korean tutor what a particularly guttural sound was transliterated
as. She said the sound did not exist in Korean. About a half hour
later, as we left the disco, I heard the sound and punched her alert,
it occurred again. She said, "I guess it does occur, I just never
heard it that way, before. She listened over the next several days
and reported that she was amazed that she hadn't noticed it before.
It is like unto us in fly over land hearing a valley girl speak for
the first time and thinking her statements are all questions, because
we hear and interpret the intonations as question sentences. Fascinating.
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:51:41 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The importance of the competence-performance distinction andthe
category sentence
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Just some observations about Bill's last post.
Bill writes:
****
If we hear footsteps in the hall, and I look up
and say, "Bob, isn't it?" I'm not necessarily *thinking* "That's Bob in
the hallway, isn't it?" Instead, in the right context, "Bob" counts as
an assertion, and the *kind* of assertion (existence, ability etc.)
determines the tag.
****************
If "Bob" is the assertion, then why can't it be:
1) *Bob, isn't he?
Under Bill's view of language, which appears to deny any explanation by ellipsis, why isn't (1) a possible statement.
Of, course, the following is right:
** Also, with tag questions, I *think* you can cases in which the domain
being "tagged" is clearly a clause, but not an independent one (if this
one seems like a stretch, I do have some cases in which a quick reply
like "No he's not" works with a subordinate clause):
We're canceling the play because the lead actor is sick, isn't he?
**
How do you know what is an independent and dependent clause?
I don't like Bill's example very much. However, I don't think this tag works in (2) at all.
2) *We are canceling the play in which the lead actor is sick, isn't he?
If there is not concept of "sentence" why is (2) not a possible sentence?
(2) also shows that tags are not just based on the string of words before them: Both Bill's sentence and mine have the words "the lead actor is sick" in front of the tag. How do we explain that without reference to clause?
The issue of corpus linguistics is interesting.
One last point: Intuitive judgments of grammaticality do not simply
access one's grammatical competence -- they're heavily influenced by a
number of factors. One of the reasons corpus work is so important is
that one *can't* simply accept grammaticality judgments as immune from
social conventions.
I'm glad Bill brought up the issue of corpus linguistics. Consider his example sentence which he says his students reject.
3) "Seldom had he seen that"
Let's ignore the following.
There are quite a number of language groups whose
speakers become quite baffled when linguists ask them to make
grammaticality judgments about their own language -- the idea of such a
judgment is itself a cultural artifact.
Let's be a corpus linguist. How do we know that there is inversion of the auxiliary with an adverb like "seldom"? If we have no underlying competence and everything we know is from performance, how does a corpus linguist figure out what are relevant forms to search for? More importantly, how does such a linguist figure out this is a relevant example or not of the structure to be searched?
If it is an adverb of frequency that triggers inversion, then does an adverb like "frequently" also trigger inversion?
Because there are two had's in English, I recommend doing a google search for "seldom could" and "frequently could." (What I say below can work for "seldom had" and "frequently had," the hits are just a little more complex to discuss.)
I got 12,000 hits for "seldom could." On the first page, three of the hits have aux-inversion like (3).
I got 24,500 hist with "frequently could," but none of the examples on the first two pages are aux-inversion like (3). They are either questions "how frequently could" or normal sentence order or frequently ends a clause boundary and could is the next word. Granted, I used my underlying knowledge/competence of English to categorize the hits on "frequently could" just like anyone who examines the results from a corpus search.
The point is that for corpus linguistics to have ANY results requires underlying knowledge of the language (1) to know what to search for and (2) to evaluate the examples for relevancy.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:17:16 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
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Bill-
Thanks for the reply - I know that specific grammatical structures certainly
varied (as much as spelling did!), but I guess where I get fuzzy is where,
and at what point, we cut them off from "sentence" as we define the word
now. And, as a corollary, what words to use when describing Old English
literature. Beowulf, of course, is verse-form, and that's a whole 'nuther
kettle of lutefisk, as they say. But when you're looking at things like the
Chronicle and other works...can you call the statements sentences?
Perhaps that's more or less a rhetorical question, but for me it's a very
grey sort of area.
-patty
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:05 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
Patricia,
I certainly don't mean to say that before the Renaissance, people didn't
make full assertions, ask questions, and the like -- as one of the previous
posters remarked, categories like "assertion" do seem fundamental. Take the
most recalcitrant Roman monument inscription (the kind that's just row after
row of all-capital letters with no spaces) and you can pick out chains of
assertions, some of which have additional background assertions linked to
them, and so forth. If we take a section of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and
translate it to modern English, there are many points in which we can rather
uncomplicatedly create a translation with standard, punctuated sentences.
The Chronicle was compiled from the marginal annotations monks made in the
monastery calendars and the like, and if you're going to make a single
assertion about what happened in year X, and you have in mind an audience
that might be reading what you write years after you've died, what you write
is probably going to be exactly what modern text practices would call a
sentence. "In this year, a two-headed calf was born in Wixbridge."
What happened in the development of the modern notion of the sentence, I
think, is a move from "those are good breaking points" to "those are THE
primary breaking points, and there are specific marks that go with them" --
the kind of move that, for example, forces the grammarian to decide whether
"although" and "however" should have the same punctuation options. Some of
the other Chronicle sections, like the one detailing the altercation between
Cynewulf and Cyneheard, don't resolve into sentences quite so unambiguously.
You clearly have a string of clauses in the original (give or take a few
cloudy bits due to the writer's reliance on pronouns in that piece), but you
can see more than one arrangement that would work for a modern translation.
I've taught Old English a number of times, and students inevitably want to
know the *right* arrangement (there are definitely wrong arrangements, but
that's a different thing entirely). Their expectation is based on modern
notions of the sentence; I suspect to the Chroniclers, if you read it and
could follow the story, it was fine.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Patricia Lafayllve
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
Hello everyone.
I'm following this discussion with keen interest, but for the sake of
clarity (in my email, at least!) I am going to cut out things I am not
directly replying to...
Regarding this:
It might very well be the case that Bill is right when he writes the
following:
*******
I have trouble accepting "sentenceness" as something that pre-exists our
definitions as a kind of fundamental category, at least in the way we've
traditionally defined sentences.
*******
If the definition of a sentence depends on whether we can begin the string
with a capital letter and end it with a period,
then Bill is definitely right.
I say:
Here's where I start feeling a bit murky, myself. Maybe if I provide an
example of what I am talking about on my end, it will help...
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, manuscript A:
63. Her Marcus se godspellere forţferde (http://asc.jebbo.co.uk/a/a-L.html)
Translates to modern English as:
A.D. 63. This year Mark the evangelist departed this life.
(http://omacl.org/Anglo/part1.html)
Now, leaving aside the historical complications for the sake of argument
(the Chronicle was compiled over a lengthy period of time, by multiple
authors, etc), my question is this:
How is the entry above NOT a sentence?
This is why I keep challenging what the phrase "traditionally defined
sentence" means. My "personal headspace" suggests that the line above (and
other forms of writing like it) pre-date what we're now using as
"traditional definitions for the sentence." Yet, the entry cited above
meets all the definitions of a sentence that I can think of.
Or am I the one over-thinking this? (It's certainly possible!)
-patty
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:16:01 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: rbetting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Have you dined? {Richard Betting related}
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Those who wish copies of "Grammar Today" don't have to resort to theft.
Complimentary copies are still available. Just indicate the number of
copies, along with your snail mail address, using my email address
([log in to unmask]), not the ATEG list. (I can no longer send overseas as
the postage is prohibitive.) To DD for his encouraging words, especially
about potential users of "Grammar Today," many thanks. His observations
accurately reflect my attempt.
Dick Betting, Emeritus Professor, Valley City State University, Valley City,
ND 58072.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DD Farms" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: Have you dined? {Richard Betting related}
> At 04:39 PM 6/24/2008, Spruiell, William C wrote: . . .
> >When someone replies to "Ya eat yet?" with "Yeah I did," . . .
>
> DD: I urge all to rush out and buy or steal, or whatever, Professor
> Richard betting's book, "Grammar Today: The New American Language and
> Grammar Primer." ISBN 9780979993602. It is child's play to the more
> experienced linguistics here, but for the rest of us, it is a
> fascinating introduction to the problems here being discussed. Would
> be a great High School text for the advanced and higher IQ students,
> and great for University Freshmen. Well I guess you would say I
> thoroughly enjoyed it. The part on what is the definition of a
> sentence is worth the price of admission. The part on tonality
> definition of what constitutes a sentence, mind boggling. {It is a
> sad thing to lose DD's mind or for his never having one, so to say.}
> I was asked by my ROKAF advisees in Korea, "What means the greeting,
> "Cheat jet? No chew?" Of course it was perfectly understandable to an
> American GI. "Did you eat, yet? No, did you?" I recall asking my
> Korean tutor what a particularly guttural sound was transliterated
> as. She said the sound did not exist in Korean. About a half hour
> later, as we left the disco, I heard the sound and punched her alert,
> it occurred again. She said, "I guess it does occur, I just never
> heard it that way, before. She listened over the next several days
> and reported that she was amazed that she hadn't noticed it before.
> It is like unto us in fly over land hearing a valley girl speak for
> the first time and thinking her statements are all questions, because
> we hear and interpret the intonations as question sentences. Fascinating.
>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:35:33 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The importance of the competence-performance distinction
andthe category sentence
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Bob,
******************
If "Bob" is the assertion, then why can't it be:
1) *Bob, isn't he?
******************
With the "Bob, isn't it" example, it's possible that the speaker and
hearer simply use knowledge of likely speech purposes given the context
-- in other words, given the situation, a speaker is much more likely to
make a guess about the source of the phenomenon than the identity of a
person, even if a person is the source of the phenomenon. Note that
"Bob, isn't it," in an ellipsis account could be shorthand for variety
of "underlying" expressions, like "That noise is being made by Bob,
isn't it?" or "It's Bob out there in the hallway, isn't it?" They're not
really assertions about Bob's identity; they're assertions about the
probable cause of the noise (and as a side note, the fact that there ARE
multiple possibilities would render this a problem case for ellipsis as
well -- most analysts constrain ellipsis by confining it to those cases
in which everyone would fill in exactly the same missing material).
"Bob, isn't he" *would* in fact work in some situations -- you just need
a context in which someone's identity is being confirmed. While "isn't
it" will work in the following, I think the "he" version will too (I
don't know any plays with characters named Bob, so I'm having to shift
to Hamlet):
[Context: Cletus and Bocephus are watching a play being performed by the
local theater club. ]
Cletus: Can't figure out the guy on the left.
Bocephus: Hamlet, isn't he?
If that doesn't work for you, the corresponding positive tag to indicate
skepticism might:
Cletus: Can't figure out the one on the left.
Bocephus: Oh, *Hamlet*, is he? That's not a good Hamlet.
**************************
2) *We are canceling the play in which the lead actor is sick, isn't he?
If there is not concept of "sentence" why is (2) not a possible
sentence?
**************************
I mentioned in the previous post that restrictive relatives seem to be
backgrounded to the point where they can't be "checked" or
"contradicted"; this is a good example of that. I brought up subordinate
clauses because they're the type of thing that most grammars class as
dependent, and which we certainly have to *punctuate* as if they're
dependent, but which may be foregroundable to the point where they act
like independent assertions rather than subsidiary ones. Note that even
a main clause (or what's treated as one in traditional grammar, at
least) can be backgroundable if it's the kind of thing that can't easily
come into play in the discourse:
Bocephus: I think the play starts at 6:00
Cletus: No it doesn't.
?? No you don't.
Again, I have no problem with the notion that people frequently
communicate with clause clusters. What I do have trouble with is the
notion that, given any abstract sequence of clauses like [A B C D E F],
there's a single unambiguous boundary-procedure that will produce (for
example) [ [A B C] [D] [E F] ], and that the groupings thus produced are
"real" in some sense. The tradition of punctuation we've inherited
**********************
The point is that for corpus linguistics to have ANY results requires
underlying knowledge of the language (1) to know what to search for and
(2) to evaluate the examples for relevancy.
***********************
I would argue that there's a crucial distinction between what is
entailed by the phrase "underlying knowledge of the language," and what
is entailed by "competence." The second (if taken in terms of its use
by Chomsky) has a very specific meaning. Competence is fully
deterministic, is not controlled by context, and is grounded in a
"mental faculty" that is unlike any others people have. It's Saussure's
"langue" as if interpreted by Plato. If language isn't fully
deterministic, is *inherently* controlled by context, and represents one
application of general cognitive functions that subserve other,
nonlinguistic, abilities, we can still have knowledge of it, but that
knowledge won't be "competence" according to Chomsky's definition. Of
*course* corpus linguists use "underlying knowledge of language" -- any
given item one searches for is structurally polyvalent; it's the status
of the item as part of a *construction* that's usually of interest.
Acknowledging that constructions exist, and acknowledging that we can
talk about them, does not require us to accept OR reject Chomsky's
notion of competence.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:00:40 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
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Patricia,
I certainly call them sentences in my classes, since my students -- and I! -- have grown up with that term. There's a problem, I think, only if we start assuming that writers in 900 c.e. thought that their texts had boundaries exactly where we'd put them, and were just waiting around for the right punctuation to be developed. We all have a natural tendency to reify descriptions that we initially adopted for their pragmatic value, so I think it behooves us to acknowledge on a regular basis that our units and labels might not reflect "reality" in any sense.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Patricia Lafayllve
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 8:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
Bill-
Thanks for the reply - I know that specific grammatical structures certainly
varied (as much as spelling did!), but I guess where I get fuzzy is where,
and at what point, we cut them off from "sentence" as we define the word
now. And, as a corollary, what words to use when describing Old English
literature. Beowulf, of course, is verse-form, and that's a whole 'nuther
kettle of lutefisk, as they say. But when you're looking at things like the
Chronicle and other works...can you call the statements sentences?
Perhaps that's more or less a rhetorical question, but for me it's a very
grey sort of area.
-patty
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:05 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
Patricia,
I certainly don't mean to say that before the Renaissance, people didn't
make full assertions, ask questions, and the like -- as one of the previous
posters remarked, categories like "assertion" do seem fundamental. Take the
most recalcitrant Roman monument inscription (the kind that's just row after
row of all-capital letters with no spaces) and you can pick out chains of
assertions, some of which have additional background assertions linked to
them, and so forth. If we take a section of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and
translate it to modern English, there are many points in which we can rather
uncomplicatedly create a translation with standard, punctuated sentences.
The Chronicle was compiled from the marginal annotations monks made in the
monastery calendars and the like, and if you're going to make a single
assertion about what happened in year X, and you have in mind an audience
that might be reading what you write years after you've died, what you write
is probably going to be exactly what modern text practices would call a
sentence. "In this year, a two-headed calf was born in Wixbridge."
What happened in the development of the modern notion of the sentence, I
think, is a move from "those are good breaking points" to "those are THE
primary breaking points, and there are specific marks that go with them" --
the kind of move that, for example, forces the grammarian to decide whether
"although" and "however" should have the same punctuation options. Some of
the other Chronicle sections, like the one detailing the altercation between
Cynewulf and Cyneheard, don't resolve into sentences quite so unambiguously.
You clearly have a string of clauses in the original (give or take a few
cloudy bits due to the writer's reliance on pronouns in that piece), but you
can see more than one arrangement that would work for a modern translation.
I've taught Old English a number of times, and students inevitably want to
know the *right* arrangement (there are definitely wrong arrangements, but
that's a different thing entirely). Their expectation is based on modern
notions of the sentence; I suspect to the Chroniclers, if you read it and
could follow the story, it was fine.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Patricia Lafayllve
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Death of the Sentence? and the
importanceofthecompetence-performance distinction
Hello everyone.
I'm following this discussion with keen interest, but for the sake of
clarity (in my email, at least!) I am going to cut out things I am not
directly replying to...
Regarding this:
It might very well be the case that Bill is right when he writes the
following:
*******
I have trouble accepting "sentenceness" as something that pre-exists our
definitions as a kind of fundamental category, at least in the way we've
traditionally defined sentences.
*******
If the definition of a sentence depends on whether we can begin the string
with a capital letter and end it with a period,
then Bill is definitely right.
I say:
Here's where I start feeling a bit murky, myself. Maybe if I provide an
example of what I am talking about on my end, it will help...
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, manuscript A:
63. Her Marcus se godspellere forţferde (http://asc.jebbo.co.uk/a/a-L.html)
Translates to modern English as:
A.D. 63. This year Mark the evangelist departed this life.
(http://omacl.org/Anglo/part1.html)
Now, leaving aside the historical complications for the sake of argument
(the Chronicle was compiled over a lengthy period of time, by multiple
authors, etc), my question is this:
How is the entry above NOT a sentence?
This is why I keep challenging what the phrase "traditionally defined
sentence" means. My "personal headspace" suggests that the line above (and
other forms of writing like it) pre-date what we're now using as
"traditional definitions for the sentence." Yet, the entry cited above
meets all the definitions of a sentence that I can think of.
Or am I the one over-thinking this? (It's certainly possible!)
-patty
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:03:27 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The importance of the competence-performance distinction
andthe category sentence
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Bill,
I think we have trouble asking tag questions about restrictive relative
clauses because they are part of what Langacker calls "grounding", the
apparatus that helps us understand the identity of what we are talking
about (within the discourse context). It's hard to assert and question
at the same time. It's not that it's ungrammatical so much as
confusing, carrying contrary messages.
Maybe this will make it clearer. In "the book you read yesterday", "you
read yesterday" tells us which book I am talking about. I can't then
ask a question like "Did you read the book you read yesterday?" because
if the answer is no, then the book doesn't exist and the assertion
stops being meaningful.
If I amend it slightly, though, the question makes sense: "Did you
really read the book you read yesterday?" In this case, "really read"
assumes a different kind of lens and makes a yes/no response possible.
I think we can add secondary tag questions to some relative clause
constructions even when they are restrictive.
"I loved the book you read yesterday, didn't you?"
"The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, didn't you?"
"The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, didn't I?"
"The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, isn't it?"
All seem to me very reasonable in speech. The tag question fine-tunes
what the speaker is asking for in response.
What makes a statement acceptable or not is certainly a matter of how
it functions within the context it occurs.
I agree: the patterns are dynamic.
Craig
>
Bob,
>
>
> ******************
> If "Bob" is the assertion, then why can't it be:
>
> 1) *Bob, isn't he?
> ******************
>
> With the "Bob, isn't it" example, it's possible that the speaker and
> hearer simply use knowledge of likely speech purposes given the context
> -- in other words, given the situation, a speaker is much more likely to
> make a guess about the source of the phenomenon than the identity of a
> person, even if a person is the source of the phenomenon. Note that
> "Bob, isn't it," in an ellipsis account could be shorthand for variety
> of "underlying" expressions, like "That noise is being made by Bob,
> isn't it?" or "It's Bob out there in the hallway, isn't it?" They're not
> really assertions about Bob's identity; they're assertions about the
> probable cause of the noise (and as a side note, the fact that there ARE
> multiple possibilities would render this a problem case for ellipsis as
> well -- most analysts constrain ellipsis by confining it to those cases
> in which everyone would fill in exactly the same missing material).
> "Bob, isn't he" *would* in fact work in some situations -- you just need
> a context in which someone's identity is being confirmed. While "isn't
> it" will work in the following, I think the "he" version will too (I
> don't know any plays with characters named Bob, so I'm having to shift
> to Hamlet):
>
> [Context: Cletus and Bocephus are watching a play being performed by the
> local theater club. ]
>
> Cletus: Can't figure out the guy on the left.
> Bocephus: Hamlet, isn't he?
>
> If that doesn't work for you, the corresponding positive tag to indicate
> skepticism might:
>
> Cletus: Can't figure out the one on the left.
> Bocephus: Oh, *Hamlet*, is he? That's not a good Hamlet.
>
>
> **************************
> 2) *We are canceling the play in which the lead actor is sick, isn't he?
>
> If there is not concept of "sentence" why is (2) not a possible
> sentence?
> **************************
>
> I mentioned in the previous post that restrictive relatives seem to be
> backgrounded to the point where they can't be "checked" or
> "contradicted"; this is a good example of that. I brought up subordinate
> clauses because they're the type of thing that most grammars class as
> dependent, and which we certainly have to *punctuate* as if they're
> dependent, but which may be foregroundable to the point where they act
> like independent assertions rather than subsidiary ones. Note that even
> a main clause (or what's treated as one in traditional grammar, at
> least) can be backgroundable if it's the kind of thing that can't easily
> come into play in the discourse:
>
> Bocephus: I think the play starts at 6:00
> Cletus: No it doesn't.
> ?? No you don't.
>
>
> Again, I have no problem with the notion that people frequently
> communicate with clause clusters. What I do have trouble with is the
> notion that, given any abstract sequence of clauses like [A B C D E F],
> there's a single unambiguous boundary-procedure that will produce (for
> example) [ [A B C] [D] [E F] ], and that the groupings thus produced are
> "real" in some sense. The tradition of punctuation we've inherited
>
>
> **********************
> The point is that for corpus linguistics to have ANY results requires
> underlying knowledge of the language (1) to know what to search for and
> (2) to evaluate the examples for relevancy.
> ***********************
>
> I would argue that there's a crucial distinction between what is
> entailed by the phrase "underlying knowledge of the language," and what
> is entailed by "competence." The second (if taken in terms of its use
> by Chomsky) has a very specific meaning. Competence is fully
> deterministic, is not controlled by context, and is grounded in a
> "mental faculty" that is unlike any others people have. It's Saussure's
> "langue" as if interpreted by Plato. If language isn't fully
> deterministic, is *inherently* controlled by context, and represents one
> application of general cognitive functions that subserve other,
> nonlinguistic, abilities, we can still have knowledge of it, but that
> knowledge won't be "competence" according to Chomsky's definition. Of
> *course* corpus linguists use "underlying knowledge of language" -- any
> given item one searches for is structurally polyvalent; it's the status
> of the item as part of a *construction* that's usually of interest.
> Acknowledging that constructions exist, and acknowledging that we can
> talk about them, does not require us to accept OR reject Chomsky's
> notion of competence.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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>
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>
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:39:42 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24
Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
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Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well
aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they
necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary
point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we
may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a
colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant
to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write
in sentences.
I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.
Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval
MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin,
German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to
consider such allegations specious.
Scott
I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:10:14 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24
Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
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Scott:
We're not questioning that Medieval writers had thoughts as complete as
ours (or at least, I know I'm not questioning that, and I doubt anyone
else would). It's just that the relation between "complete thought" and
"sentence" isn't as straightforward as it's sometimes presented. Compare
the following:
1. Most of us wanted pizza, although Bjarki wanted surstromming.
2. Most of us wanted pizza. *Although Bjarki wanted
surstromming.
3. Most of us wanted pizza. However, Bjarki wanted surstromming.
I'd have enormous trouble trying to support the claim that "although"
gives you one complete thought in #1, but "however" leads to two
complete thoughts in #3, and that anyone who wrote #2 (both parts, not
just the second) was having incomplete thoughts. That *issue* would not,
I think, have come up in the medieval period -- you wrote it, and it
made sense, so it was complete.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24
Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well
aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they
necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary
point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we
may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a
colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant
to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write
in sentences.
I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.
Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval
MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin,
German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to
consider such allegations specious.
Scott
I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.
***********************************************************
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:27:48 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The importance of the competence-performance distinction
andthe category sentence
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Craig,
Langacker is providing an excellent way of talking about *why* certain
clauses are "backgrounded" -- I would certainly agree that a
nonrestrictive relative basically presents something you already know in
order to help you pin down a referent that would otherwise be tricky,
and since it's there as a support structure only, it's not likely to
occupy center stage. Likewise, nominalized structures like infinitives
and gerunds are there to be commented *on*, not to constitute comments,
so they're untaggable and in fact uncontradictable ("Have you stopped
setting fire to baby seals?"). At the other end of the spectrum, full
independent clauses are presented as "center stage" material, although
in some cases tagging them is a trifle odd ("I like chocolate, don't
I?").
I had trouble with the "didn't you" tags in your email below, but that
might be because I can't attach them to the right intonation contour.
There are plenty of other grammatical phenomena in which a "default"
status can be overridden with enough context and cues -- I've heard
things that sounded perfectly normal, written them down, and had them
look bizarre when floating on their own line in black and white. "Out of
context" is its own context.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The importance of the competence-performance distinction
andthe category sentence
Bill,
I think we have trouble asking tag questions about restrictive
relative
clauses because they are part of what Langacker calls "grounding", the
apparatus that helps us understand the identity of what we are talking
about (within the discourse context). It's hard to assert and question
at the same time. It's not that it's ungrammatical so much as
confusing, carrying contrary messages.
Maybe this will make it clearer. In "the book you read yesterday",
"you
read yesterday" tells us which book I am talking about. I can't then
ask a question like "Did you read the book you read yesterday?" because
if the answer is no, then the book doesn't exist and the assertion
stops being meaningful.
If I amend it slightly, though, the question makes sense: "Did you
really read the book you read yesterday?" In this case, "really read"
assumes a different kind of lens and makes a yes/no response possible.
I think we can add secondary tag questions to some relative clause
constructions even when they are restrictive.
"I loved the book you read yesterday, didn't you?"
"The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, didn't you?"
"The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, didn't I?"
"The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, isn't it?"
All seem to me very reasonable in speech. The tag question fine-tunes
what the speaker is asking for in response.
What makes a statement acceptable or not is certainly a matter of how
it functions within the context it occurs.
I agree: the patterns are dynamic.
Craig
>
Bob,
>
>
> ******************
> If "Bob" is the assertion, then why can't it be:
>
> 1) *Bob, isn't he?
> ******************
>
> With the "Bob, isn't it" example, it's possible that the speaker and
> hearer simply use knowledge of likely speech purposes given the
context
> -- in other words, given the situation, a speaker is much more likely
to
> make a guess about the source of the phenomenon than the identity of a
> person, even if a person is the source of the phenomenon. Note that
> "Bob, isn't it," in an ellipsis account could be shorthand for variety
> of "underlying" expressions, like "That noise is being made by Bob,
> isn't it?" or "It's Bob out there in the hallway, isn't it?" They're
not
> really assertions about Bob's identity; they're assertions about the
> probable cause of the noise (and as a side note, the fact that there
ARE
> multiple possibilities would render this a problem case for ellipsis
as
> well -- most analysts constrain ellipsis by confining it to those
cases
> in which everyone would fill in exactly the same missing material).
> "Bob, isn't he" *would* in fact work in some situations -- you just
need
> a context in which someone's identity is being confirmed. While "isn't
> it" will work in the following, I think the "he" version will too (I
> don't know any plays with characters named Bob, so I'm having to shift
> to Hamlet):
>
> [Context: Cletus and Bocephus are watching a play being performed by
the
> local theater club. ]
>
> Cletus: Can't figure out the guy on the left.
> Bocephus: Hamlet, isn't he?
>
> If that doesn't work for you, the corresponding positive tag to
indicate
> skepticism might:
>
> Cletus: Can't figure out the one on the left.
> Bocephus: Oh, *Hamlet*, is he? That's not a good Hamlet.
>
>
> **************************
> 2) *We are canceling the play in which the lead actor is sick, isn't
he?
>
> If there is not concept of "sentence" why is (2) not a possible
> sentence?
> **************************
>
> I mentioned in the previous post that restrictive relatives seem to be
> backgrounded to the point where they can't be "checked" or
> "contradicted"; this is a good example of that. I brought up
subordinate
> clauses because they're the type of thing that most grammars class as
> dependent, and which we certainly have to *punctuate* as if they're
> dependent, but which may be foregroundable to the point where they act
> like independent assertions rather than subsidiary ones. Note that
even
> a main clause (or what's treated as one in traditional grammar, at
> least) can be backgroundable if it's the kind of thing that can't
easily
> come into play in the discourse:
>
> Bocephus: I think the play starts at 6:00
> Cletus: No it doesn't.
> ?? No you don't.
>
>
> Again, I have no problem with the notion that people frequently
> communicate with clause clusters. What I do have trouble with is the
> notion that, given any abstract sequence of clauses like [A B C D E
F],
> there's a single unambiguous boundary-procedure that will produce (for
> example) [ [A B C] [D] [E F] ], and that the groupings thus produced
are
> "real" in some sense. The tradition of punctuation we've inherited
>
>
> **********************
> The point is that for corpus linguistics to have ANY results requires
> underlying knowledge of the language (1) to know what to search for
and
> (2) to evaluate the examples for relevancy.
> ***********************
>
> I would argue that there's a crucial distinction between what is
> entailed by the phrase "underlying knowledge of the language," and
what
> is entailed by "competence." The second (if taken in terms of its use
> by Chomsky) has a very specific meaning. Competence is fully
> deterministic, is not controlled by context, and is grounded in a
> "mental faculty" that is unlike any others people have. It's
Saussure's
> "langue" as if interpreted by Plato. If language isn't fully
> deterministic, is *inherently* controlled by context, and represents
one
> application of general cognitive functions that subserve other,
> nonlinguistic, abilities, we can still have knowledge of it, but that
> knowledge won't be "competence" according to Chomsky's definition. Of
> *course* corpus linguists use "underlying knowledge of language" --
any
> given item one searches for is structurally polyvalent; it's the
status
> of the item as part of a *construction* that's usually of interest.
> Acknowledging that constructions exist, and acknowledging that we can
> talk about them, does not require us to accept OR reject Chomsky's
> notion of competence.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:27:53 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: {spam?} RE: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG
Digest - 24 Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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"The Sentence - A Discussion" - a perfect topic for grammarians. At least for now.
Both sentences? Right? (Including the preceding!)
Geoff Layton> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:10:14 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24 Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)> To: [log in to unmask]> > Scott:> > We're not questioning that Medieval writers had thoughts as complete as> ours (or at least, I know I'm not questioning that, and I doubt anyone> else would). It's just that the relation between "complete thought" and> "sentence" isn't as straightforward as it's sometimes presented. Compare> the following:> > 1. Most of us wanted pizza, although Bjarki wanted surstromming.> 2. Most of us wanted pizza. *Although Bjarki wanted> surstromming.> 3. Most of us wanted pizza. However, Bjarki wanted surstromming.> > I'd have enormous trouble trying to support the claim that "although"> gives you one complete thought in #1, but "however" leads to two> complete thoughts in #3, and that anyone who wrote #2 (both parts, not> just the second) was having incomplete thoughts. That *issue* would not,> I think, have come up in the medieval period -- you wrote it, and it> made sense, so it was complete. > > Bill Spruiell> Dept. of English> Central Michigan University> > > -----Original Message-----> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:40 PM> To: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24> Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)> > Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well> aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they> necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary> point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we> may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a > colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant > to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write > in sentences.> > I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.> Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval > MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin, > German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to> consider such allegations specious.> > Scott> I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.> > ***********************************************************> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web> interface at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or leave the list"> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or leave the list"> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_________________________________________________________________
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<STRONG><EM>"The Sentence - A Discussion" - a perfect topic for grammarians. At least for now.</EM></STRONG><BR>
<BR>
Both sentences? Right? (Including the preceding!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR>> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:10:14 -0400<BR>> From: [log in to unmask]<BR>> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24 Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)<BR>> To: [log in to unmask]<BR>> <BR>> Scott:<BR>> <BR>> We're not questioning that Medieval writers had thoughts as complete as<BR>> ours (or at least, I know I'm not questioning that, and I doubt anyone<BR>> else would). It's just that the relation between "complete thought" and<BR>> "sentence" isn't as straightforward as it's sometimes presented. Compare<BR>> the following:<BR>> <BR>> 1. Most of us wanted pizza, although Bjarki wanted surstromming.<BR>> 2. Most of us wanted pizza. *Although Bjarki wanted<BR>> surstromming.<BR>> 3. Most of us wanted pizza. However, Bjarki wanted surstromming.<BR>> <BR>> I'd have enormous trouble trying to support the claim that "although"<BR>> gives you one complete thought in #1, but "however" leads to two<BR>> complete thoughts in #3, and that anyone who wrote #2 (both parts, not<BR>> just the second) was having incomplete thoughts. That *issue* would not,<BR>> I think, have come up in the medieval period -- you wrote it, and it<BR>> made sense, so it was complete. <BR>> <BR>> Bill Spruiell<BR>> Dept. of English<BR>> Central Michigan University<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<BR>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott<BR>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:40 PM<BR>> To: [log in to unmask]<BR>> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24<BR>> Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)<BR>> <BR>> Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well<BR>> aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they<BR>> necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary<BR>> point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we<BR>> may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a <BR>> colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant <BR>> to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write <BR>> in sentences.<BR>> <BR>> I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.<BR>> Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval <BR>> MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin, <BR>> German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to<BR>> consider such allegations specious.<BR>> <BR>> Scott<BR>> I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.<BR>> <BR>> ***********************************************************<BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<BR>> interface at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>> and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>> and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR><br /><hr />The i’m Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. <a href='http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst' target='_new'>Learn More</a></body>
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:32:50 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: {spam?} RE: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG
Digest - 24 Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
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A couple of months ago, I was talking about the problems with the
"complete thought" definition with a colleague who's known me for years,
and I tossed in "How does anyone know if they're having complete
thoughts?" Her immediate reply was, "Bill, yours are run-ons."
Bill Spruiell
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: {spam?} RE: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG
Digest - 24 Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
"The Sentence - A Discussion" - a perfect topic for grammarians. At
least for now.
Both sentences? Right? (Including the preceding!)
Geoff Layton
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:10:14 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest -
24 Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Scott:
>
> We're not questioning that Medieval writers had thoughts as complete
as
> ours (or at least, I know I'm not questioning that, and I doubt anyone
> else would). It's just that the relation between "complete thought"
and
> "sentence" isn't as straightforward as it's sometimes presented.
Compare
> the following:
>
> 1. Most of us wanted pizza, although Bjarki wanted surstromming.
> 2. Most of us wanted pizza. *Although Bjarki wanted
> surstromming.
> 3. Most of us wanted pizza. However, Bjarki wanted surstromming.
>
> I'd have enormous trouble trying to support the claim that "although"
> gives you one complete thought in #1, but "however" leads to two
> complete thoughts in #3, and that anyone who wrote #2 (both parts, not
> just the second) was having incomplete thoughts. That *issue* would
not,
> I think, have come up in the medieval period -- you wrote it, and it
> made sense, so it was complete.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:40 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest -
24
> Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
>
> Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am
well
> aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did
they
> necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary
> point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we
> may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a
> colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant
> to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write
> in sentences.
>
> I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.
> Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval
> MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin,
> German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to
> consider such allegations specious.
>
> Scott
> I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.
>
> ***********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
________________________________
The i'm Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves.
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>A couple of months ago, I was talking about the problems with
the “complete thought” definition with a colleague who’s known me for years,
and I tossed in “How does anyone know if they’re having complete thoughts?” Her
immediate reply was, “Bill, yours are run-ons.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Geoffrey
Layton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> {spam?} RE: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG
Digest - 24 Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><em><b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>"The Sentence - A
Discussion" - a perfect topic for grammarians. At least for now.</span></b></em><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>
<br>
Both sentences? Right? (Including the preceding!)<br>
<br>
<br>
Geoff Layton<br>
<br>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:10:14 -0400<br>
> From: [log in to unmask]<br>
> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24
Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)<br>
> To: [log in to unmask]<br>
> <br>
> Scott:<br>
> <br>
> We're not questioning that Medieval writers had thoughts as complete as<br>
> ours (or at least, I know I'm not questioning that, and I doubt anyone<br>
> else would). It's just that the relation between "complete
thought" and<br>
> "sentence" isn't as straightforward as it's sometimes presented.
Compare<br>
> the following:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Most of us wanted pizza, although Bjarki wanted surstromming.<br>
> 2. Most of us wanted pizza. *Although Bjarki wanted<br>
> surstromming.<br>
> 3. Most of us wanted pizza. However, Bjarki wanted surstromming.<br>
> <br>
> I'd have enormous trouble trying to support the claim that
"although"<br>
> gives you one complete thought in #1, but "however" leads to two<br>
> complete thoughts in #3, and that anyone who wrote #2 (both parts, not<br>
> just the second) was having incomplete thoughts. That *issue* would not,<br>
> I think, have come up in the medieval period -- you wrote it, and it<br>
> made sense, so it was complete. <br>
> <br>
> Bill Spruiell<br>
> Dept. of English<br>
> Central Michigan University<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott<br>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:40 PM<br>
> To: [log in to unmask]<br>
> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24<br>
> Jun 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)<br>
> <br>
> Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well<br>
> aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they<br>
> necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary<br>
> point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we<br>
> may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a <br>
> colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant <br>
> to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write <br>
> in sentences.<br>
> <br>
> I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.<br>
> Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval <br>
> MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin, <br>
> German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to<br>
> consider such allegations specious.<br>
> <br>
> Scott<br>
> I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.<br>
> <br>
> ***********************************************************<br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br>
> interface at:<br>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br>
> <br>
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 04:44:31 +0100
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Claudia Kiburz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sentences are OUR modern inventions. was ATEG Digest - 24 Jun
2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
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I have not been following the thread from the beginning, but it seems to me that a key word in this sentence:
"I am well aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they necessarily start with a capital and end with a period,"
is OUR.
Apparently other modern languages function quite well without full stops and capitalization.
An interesting question might be, "why does OUR modern English places such an emphasis on clear and unambiguous written form?"
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well
aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they
necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary
point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we
may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a
colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant
to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write
in sentences.
I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.
Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval
MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin,
German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to
consider such allegations specious.
Scott
I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.
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I have not been following the thread from the beginning, but it seems to me that a key word in this sentence:<br>"I am well aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they necessarily start with a capital and end with a period,"<br>is OUR.<br>Apparently other modern languages function quite well without full stops and capitalization.<br><br>An interesting question might be, "why does OUR modern English places such an emphasis on clear and unambiguous written form?" <br><br><br><b><i>Scott <[log in to unmask]></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well<br>aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they<br>necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary<br>point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we<br>may choose to
punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a <br>colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant <br>to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write <br>in sentences.<br><br>I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.<br>Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval <br>MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin, <br>German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to<br>consider such allegations specious.<br><br>Scott<br>I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.<br><br>***********************************************************<br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br></blockquote><br><p> Send instant messages to your online friends
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:05:13 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The importance of the competence-performance distinction
andthe category sentence
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Bill,
I think it's more than just "center stage", though that's a big part of
it. We don't say "I believe she is my friend, dont I" because we would
then be asking about our own beliefs, which seems odd. So the default
would be "I believe she is my friend, isn't she" because we are asking
for confirmation that the listener is actually able to give. So there's
a combination of factors involved, having everything to do with the
interactive nature of the tag question. It doesn't just express a
complete thought, but invites a reply.>
Here's an example that I tried with a few people that passed quick
muster, at least when spoken: "The chicken I ate was chicken you cooked
well, didn't you?" Of course, the only person this could be directed at
would be the cook.
The overall point, I guess, would be that tag questions have a
function, and that there is some flexibility available to us to
override the default expectations when the situation calls for it. This
seems more in keeping with a functional view of syntax than it does an
innate, formal,or generative view.
Craig
Craig,
>
> Langacker is providing an excellent way of talking about *why* certain
> clauses are "backgrounded" -- I would certainly agree that a
> nonrestrictive relative basically presents something you already know in
> order to help you pin down a referent that would otherwise be tricky,
> and since it's there as a support structure only, it's not likely to
> occupy center stage. Likewise, nominalized structures like infinitives
> and gerunds are there to be commented *on*, not to constitute comments,
> so they're untaggable and in fact uncontradictable ("Have you stopped
> setting fire to baby seals?"). At the other end of the spectrum, full
> independent clauses are presented as "center stage" material, although
> in some cases tagging them is a trifle odd ("I like chocolate, don't
> I?").
>
> I had trouble with the "didn't you" tags in your email below, but that
> might be because I can't attach them to the right intonation contour.
> There are plenty of other grammatical phenomena in which a "default"
> status can be overridden with enough context and cues -- I've heard
> things that sounded perfectly normal, written them down, and had them
> look bizarre when floating on their own line in black and white. "Out of
> context" is its own context.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:03 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The importance of the competence-performance distinction
> andthe category sentence
>
> Bill,
> I think we have trouble asking tag questions about restrictive
> relative
> clauses because they are part of what Langacker calls "grounding", the
> apparatus that helps us understand the identity of what we are talking
> about (within the discourse context). It's hard to assert and question
> at the same time. It's not that it's ungrammatical so much as
> confusing, carrying contrary messages.
> Maybe this will make it clearer. In "the book you read yesterday",
> "you
> read yesterday" tells us which book I am talking about. I can't then
> ask a question like "Did you read the book you read yesterday?" because
> if the answer is no, then the book doesn't exist and the assertion
> stops being meaningful.
> If I amend it slightly, though, the question makes sense: "Did you
> really read the book you read yesterday?" In this case, "really read"
> assumes a different kind of lens and makes a yes/no response possible.
> I think we can add secondary tag questions to some relative clause
> constructions even when they are restrictive.
> "I loved the book you read yesterday, didn't you?"
> "The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, didn't you?"
> "The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, didn't I?"
> "The book you read yesterday is one I really loved, isn't it?"
> All seem to me very reasonable in speech. The tag question fine-tunes
> what the speaker is asking for in response.
> What makes a statement acceptable or not is certainly a matter of how
> it functions within the context it occurs.
> I agree: the patterns are dynamic.
>
> Craig
> >
>
> Bob,
>>
>>
>> ******************
>> If "Bob" is the assertion, then why can't it be:
>>
>> 1) *Bob, isn't he?
>> ******************
>>
>> With the "Bob, isn't it" example, it's possible that the speaker and
>> hearer simply use knowledge of likely speech purposes given the
> context
>> -- in other words, given the situation, a speaker is much more likely
> to
>> make a guess about the source of the phenomenon than the identity of a
>> person, even if a person is the source of the phenomenon. Note that
>> "Bob, isn't it," in an ellipsis account could be shorthand for variety
>> of "underlying" expressions, like "That noise is being made by Bob,
>> isn't it?" or "It's Bob out there in the hallway, isn't it?" They're
> not
>> really assertions about Bob's identity; they're assertions about the
>> probable cause of the noise (and as a side note, the fact that there
> ARE
>> multiple possibilities would render this a problem case for ellipsis
> as
>> well -- most analysts constrain ellipsis by confining it to those
> cases
>> in which everyone would fill in exactly the same missing material).
>> "Bob, isn't he" *would* in fact work in some situations -- you just
> need
>> a context in which someone's identity is being confirmed. While "isn't
>> it" will work in the following, I think the "he" version will too (I
>> don't know any plays with characters named Bob, so I'm having to shift
>> to Hamlet):
>>
>> [Context: Cletus and Bocephus are watching a play being performed by
> the
>> local theater club. ]
>>
>> Cletus: Can't figure out the guy on the left.
>> Bocephus: Hamlet, isn't he?
>>
>> If that doesn't work for you, the corresponding positive tag to
> indicate
>> skepticism might:
>>
>> Cletus: Can't figure out the one on the left.
>> Bocephus: Oh, *Hamlet*, is he? That's not a good Hamlet.
>>
>>
>> **************************
>> 2) *We are canceling the play in which the lead actor is sick, isn't
> he?
>>
>> If there is not concept of "sentence" why is (2) not a possible
>> sentence?
>> **************************
>>
>> I mentioned in the previous post that restrictive relatives seem to be
>> backgrounded to the point where they can't be "checked" or
>> "contradicted"; this is a good example of that. I brought up
> subordinate
>> clauses because they're the type of thing that most grammars class as
>> dependent, and which we certainly have to *punctuate* as if they're
>> dependent, but which may be foregroundable to the point where they act
>> like independent assertions rather than subsidiary ones. Note that
> even
>> a main clause (or what's treated as one in traditional grammar, at
>> least) can be backgroundable if it's the kind of thing that can't
> easily
>> come into play in the discourse:
>>
>> Bocephus: I think the play starts at 6:00
>> Cletus: No it doesn't.
>> ?? No you don't.
>>
>>
>> Again, I have no problem with the notion that people frequently
>> communicate with clause clusters. What I do have trouble with is the
>> notion that, given any abstract sequence of clauses like [A B C D E
> F],
>> there's a single unambiguous boundary-procedure that will produce (for
>> example) [ [A B C] [D] [E F] ], and that the groupings thus produced
> are
>> "real" in some sense. The tradition of punctuation we've inherited
>>
>>
>> **********************
>> The point is that for corpus linguistics to have ANY results requires
>> underlying knowledge of the language (1) to know what to search for
> and
>> (2) to evaluate the examples for relevancy.
>> ***********************
>>
>> I would argue that there's a crucial distinction between what is
>> entailed by the phrase "underlying knowledge of the language," and
> what
>> is entailed by "competence." The second (if taken in terms of its use
>> by Chomsky) has a very specific meaning. Competence is fully
>> deterministic, is not controlled by context, and is grounded in a
>> "mental faculty" that is unlike any others people have. It's
> Saussure's
>> "langue" as if interpreted by Plato. If language isn't fully
>> deterministic, is *inherently* controlled by context, and represents
> one
>> application of general cognitive functions that subserve other,
>> nonlinguistic, abilities, we can still have knowledge of it, but that
>> knowledge won't be "competence" according to Chomsky's definition. Of
>> *course* corpus linguists use "underlying knowledge of language" --
> any
>> given item one searches for is structurally polyvalent; it's the
> status
>> of the item as part of a *construction* that's usually of interest.
>> Acknowledging that constructions exist, and acknowledging that we can
>> talk about them, does not require us to accept OR reject Chomsky's
>> notion of competence.
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>> Dept. of English
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:56:15 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The importance of the competence-performance
distinctionandthe category sentence
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I think this example is a yes-no question on which chicken was eaten.
"The chicken I ate was chicken you cooked
well, didn't you?"
and not really a tag. As I noted in a previous post, Biber et al. cite such examples.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:26:47 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The importance of the competence-performance
distinctionandthe category sentence
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Bob,
I think tags are generally yes/no requests appended to a sentence. In
this case, I think it's not a question about which chicken was eaten,
but whether the "chicken I ate" (identified) was cooked well.
It could be thought of as a run-on sentence, though that would be more
relevant to writing.
I'm not sure I would recommend it, but the discussion started around
whether taq questions are a fixed grammar or are somewhat flexible in
the way we use them. I see them as fundamentally interactive, asking
for a targeted response from a listener. In this sense, they do act
like ordinary questions, so a case could be made that this one is comma
spliced to another clause. At any rate, we do have other examples of
tag questions targeting a subordinate clause. Relatives (especially
restrictive relatives) may be an extreme stretch, and I may be pushing
this too far.
Craig >
I think this example is a yes-no question on which chicken was eaten.
>
> "The chicken I ate was chicken you cooked
> well, didn't you?"
>
> and not really a tag. As I noted in a previous post, Biber et al. cite
> such examples.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:00:23 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 25 Jun 2008 to 26 Jun 2008 (#2008-145)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:39:42 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24 Jun
2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well
aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they
necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary
point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we
may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a
colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant
to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write
in sentences.
I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.
Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval
MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin,
German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to
consider such allegations specious.
Scott
I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.
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I would consider all three incorrect.
1. A subordinate clause following an independent clause is not set off
by a comma unless the comma is needed to avoid ambiguity or other confusion.
2. The first clause is an incomplete thought that requires further
explication. The second clause is a sentence fragment.
3. The first clause is an incomplete thought that requires further
explication. The second clause is a sentence fragment. Subordinating
conjunctions do not begin a sentence: they begin a subordinate clause.
Even with my far stricter rules, the facsimiles and originals that I have
read have what I consider sentences; i.e., express complete thoughts.
My descriptive definition of a sentence is a group of words that express
a complete thought.
I will readily confess that, when a friend wished to study English grammar
on his own and asked for three reference grammars, I recommended Jespersen,
Curme, and Pence & Emery. I ran into him at a conference later; he had
gotten his doctorate in English grammar but averred that he still preferred
my three references and kept them on his desk in his office.
No, I do not think that correct English stopped with the Victorians;
however, I do think that the teaching of English grammar went to "hell in
a handbasket" in the '60s when "Do your own thing" went from fringe social
comment to educational policy. Far too many English teachers majored in
literature and are prepared to teach that and nothing else. I have been
away from public secondary schools for a quarter century, but during that
25 years I was reading applications for federal employment. In general,
the applicants not only could not write using correct grammar and usage,
they could not follow explicit written directions. Almost all of the
applications that I reviewed were from college graduates. In one five-
year period I reviewed over 500 applications from one top Southern CA
university and not a single one both followed directions and remained
free from egregious errors. One does not expect complete sentences in
an application; one does expect correct usage and subject-verb agreement.
Oh, well, what can you expect from applicants who complete 300 semester
hours of psychology in only three years; I took psychology courses for
40 years and did not accumulate nearly so many.
I am still waiting for someone to furnish references in medieval Romance
or Germanic languages. I am aware that Medieval and Early Modern German
embeds what we would consider independent clauses into sentences.
"I can do all things through him, he makes me strong" vs.
"I can do all things through him who strengthens me"
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:10:14 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24 Jun
2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
Scott:
We're not questioning that Medieval writers had thoughts as complete as
ours (or at least, I know I'm not questioning that, and I doubt anyone
else would). It's just that the relation between "complete thought" and
"sentence" isn't as straightforward as it's sometimes presented. Compare
the following:
1. Most of us wanted pizza, although Bjarki wanted surstromming.
2. Most of us wanted pizza. *Although Bjarki wanted
surstromming.
3. Most of us wanted pizza. However, Bjarki wanted surstromming.
I'd have enormous trouble trying to support the claim that "although"
gives you one complete thought in #1, but "however" leads to two
complete thoughts in #3, and that anyone who wrote #2 (both parts, not
just the second) was having incomplete thoughts. That *issue* would not,
I think, have come up in the medieval period -- you wrote it, and it
made sense, so it was complete.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:44:38 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: the death of the semicolon
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I thought you might like this amusing article (below, from Slate magazine) about semicolons. According to those who have commented on the article (comments summarized here http://www.slate.com/id/2194418/ ), at least some English teachers have been forbidding, or restricting, semi-colon use. This was news to me. I have creative writing colleagues who limit exclamation points (students get three exclamation points per semester), but hadn't heard that semi-colons were also on notice.
Beth
culturebox
; (
Has modern life killed the semicolon?
By Paul Collins
Posted Friday, June 20, 2008, at 4:51 PM ET
When the Times of London reported in 1837 on two University of Paris law profs dueling with swords, the dispute wasn't over the fine points of the Napoleonic Code. It was over the point-virgule: the semicolon. "The one who contended that the passage in question ought to be concluded by a semicolon was wounded in the arm," noted the Times. "His adversary maintained that it should be a colon."
French passions over the semicolon are running high once again. An April Fool's hoax this year by the online publication Rue89 claimed that the Nicolas Sarkozy government planned to demand "at least three semicolons per page in official administrative documents." Parliamentarian Benoist Apparu was in on the joke-"The disappearance of the semicolon in Eastern France is absolutely dramatic," he gamely proclaimed-and linguist Alain Rey (barely) kept a straight face for a video calling Frenchmen to arms. Reporters were taken in, since, like every great hoax, it was plausible enough to be true. Le Figaro has proclaimed, "The much-loved semicolon is in the process of disappearance; let us protect it," and there was even a brief attempt at a Committee for the Defense of the Semicolon-a modern update on the Anti-Comma League that France had back in 1934. French commentators blame the semicolon's decline on everything from "the modern need for speed" to the corrupting influence of English and its short, declarative sentences. It's a charge leveled for years stateside, too, with Sven Birkerts bemoaning the Internet's baleful influence on semicolons a decade ago.
Has modern life killed the semicolon?
The semicolon has a remarkable lineage: Ancient Greeks used it as a question mark; and after classical scholar and master printer Aldus Manutius revived it in a 1494 font set, semicolons slowly spread across Europe. Though London first saw semicolons appear in a 1568 chess guide, Shakespeare grew up in an era that still scarcely recognized them; some of his Folio typesetters in 1623, though, were clearly converts.
Back then, the semicolon wasn't for interrogation or relating clauses; punctuation was still largely taught around oratorical pauses. The 1737 guide Bibliotheca Technologica recognizes "The comma (,) which stops the voice while you tell [count] one. The Semicolon (;) pauseth while you tell two. The Colon (:) while you tell three; and then period, or full stop (.) while you tell four." Lacking standards for how punctuation shades the meaning of sentences-and not just their oration-18th-century writers went berserk with the catchall mark.
Take this extraordinary passage from Samuel Salter's Sermon Before the Sons of the Clergy (1755):
It is evident then; that, if Atossa was the first inventress of the Epistles; these, that carry the name of Phalaris, who was so much older than her, must needs be an imposture.-But, if it be otherwise; that he does not describe me under those general reproaches; a small satisfaction shall content you; which I leave you to be the judge of. ... Pray, let me hear from you; as soon as you can.
This chaos couldn't last: By the 1793 New Guide to the English Tongue, modern usage peeks through-"Its chief Use is in distinguishing Contraries, and frequent Division." Yet the older implication of a thoughtful pause always underlies the semicolon's appeal. Even as punctuation became more orderly, poet Samuel Coleridge mused that "the semicolon is far more common in the elder English Classics. ... It was perhaps used in excess by them; but the disuse seems a worse evil."
As Coleridge hints, semicolons hit a speed bump with Romanticism's craze for dashes, for words that practically spasmed off the page. Take this sample from the 1814 poem The Orphans: "Dead-dead-quite dead-and pale-oh!-oh!"
Yet in 1848 Edgar Allan Poe declared himself "mortified" by printers once again using too many semicolons. Poe may have the distinction of being the last writer to complain of the semicolon's popularity. By 1865, grammarian Justin Brenan could boast of "The rejection of the eternal semicolons of our ancestors. ... The semicolon has been gradually disappearing, not only from newspapers, but from books-insomuch that I believe instances could now be produced, of entire pages without a single semicolon."
1865? But surely that's a century off: Isn't modern life to blame?
Not exactly: From the 1850s onward, it's virtually impossible to find anyone claiming a prevalence of semicolons in writing. We now lived, complained a critic in 1854, in a "fast era" that neglected punctuation; by 1895, the Times took it for granted that "[m]any writers have adopted the plan of punctuating as little as possible." What these writers intuited had an empirical basis: A 1995 study tallying punctuation in period texts found a stunning drop in semicolon usage between the 18th and 19th centuries, from 68.1 semicolons per thousand words to just 17.7.
Researcher Paul Bruthiaux notes the steepest semicolon drop-off came in the mid-19th century-a finding that matches the gap between Poe's 1848 complaint and that 1865 "rejection." Technology is a leading suspect in rapid aesthetic shifts, so consider what debuted in the 1850s that might radically change language usage: the telegraph.
Poe's 1848 comment came just three years before the founding of Western Union. The next decade saw lines strung across the country to create what science writer Tom Standage fittingly dubs the "Victorian Internet." And that's precisely when semicolon usage begin to slump.
Perusing telegraph manuals reveals that Morse code is to the semicolon what weedkiller is to the dandelion. Punctuation was charged at the same rate as words, and their high price-trans-Atlantic cables originally cost a still-shocking $5 per word-meant that short, punchy lines with minimal punctuation were necessary among businessmen and journalists.
By the new century, simplified punctuation migrated into textbooks; one 1903 guide recommended that "Boys and girls ... should as a rule use a period when they are tempted to use a semicolon." When the California State Board of Education adopted this textbook three years later, the mark's capitulation was perhaps inevitable. Harper's could decry the semicolon as "almost forgotten among proofreaders" in a 1924 article titled Our Passion for Haste, and the Atlantic that year could bemoan the "spot plague" of periods. So, too, in 1943, when the Times editorialized against "the war that is being waged in some quarters on the semicolon." Their favored villain was now "the writer of action fiction. ... The semicolon is the enemy of action; it is the agent of reflection and meditation."
The semicolon has spent the last century as a fussbudget mark. Somerset Maugham and George Orwell disdained it; Kurt Vonnegut once informed a Tufts University crowd that "All [semicolons] do is show that you've been to college." New York mayor Fiorello LaGuardia's favorite put-down for egghead bureaucrats who got in his way was "semicolon boy." And though semicolons have occasionally made news-tariff bills have imploded over their misplacement, and a 1927 execution hinged on the interpretation of a semicolon-the last writers to receive much notice for semicolon use have been a New York City Transit employee and the Son of Sam. In 1977 the NYPD speculated that "the killer could be a freelance journalist" because of his "use of a semicolon" in his taunting letters. (Decades later, columnist Jimmy Breslin still marveled that "Berkowitz is the only murderer I ever heard of who knew how to use a semicolon.")
Semicolons do have some genuine shortcomings; Slate's founding editor, Michael Kinsley, once noted to the Financial Times that "[t]he most common abuse of the semicolon, at least in journalism, is to imply a relationship between two statements without having to make clear what that relationship is." All journalists can cop to this: The semicolon allows woozy clauses to lean on each other like drunks for support.
Yet semicolons serve a unique function, so it's tempting to think that some writers will always cling to them. When grading undergrad final papers recently, I found a near-absence of semicolons, save for one paper with cadenced pauses and carefully cantilevered clauses that gracefully stacked upon one another, Jenga-like, without ever quite toppling. Yet English was not this student's first language.
He was an exchange student-from France.
Paul Collins teaches nonfiction at Portland State University. His latest book is The Trouble With Tom: The Strange Afterlife and Times of Thomas Paine.
Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2194087/
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:30:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Subject: Re: the death of the semicolon
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For some months (years?) now, I have been trying to find an article by a current (well, relatively current, he may even be dead by now) commentator on the cultural scene who sounded off vociferously against the semi-colon, wishing it the worst of health. It may have been Buckley, but more likely one of the less pompous radio/TV/newspaper pundits since my mother was a fan of whoever it was, and she detested Buckley. Anybody know what (or who) I'm talking about (since I so rarely do!).Geoff Layton> Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:44:38 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: the death of the semicolon> To: [log in to unmask]> > I thought you might like this amusing article (below, from Slate magazine) about semicolons. According to those who have commented on the article (comments summarized here http://www.slate.com/id/2194418/ ), at least some English teachers have been forbidding, or restricting, semi-colon use. This was news to me. I have creative writing colleagues who limit exclamation points (students get three exclamation points per semester), but hadn't heard that semi-colons were also on notice.> > Beth> > culturebox> ; (> Has modern life killed the semicolon?> By Paul Collins> Posted Friday, June 20, 2008, at 4:51 PM ET> > When the Times of London reported in 1837 on two University of Paris law profs dueling with swords, the dispute wasn't over the fine points of the Napoleonic Code. It was over the point-virgule: the semicolon. "The one who contended that the passage in question ought to be concluded by a semicolon was wounded in the arm," noted the Times. "His adversary maintained that it should be a colon."> > French passions over the semicolon are running high once again. An April Fool's hoax this year by the online publication Rue89 claimed that the Nicolas Sarkozy government planned to demand "at least three semicolons per page in official administrative documents." Parliamentarian Benoist Apparu was in on the joke-"The disappearance of the semicolon in Eastern France is absolutely dramatic," he gamely proclaimed-and linguist Alain Rey (barely) kept a straight face for a video calling Frenchmen to arms. Reporters were taken in, since, like every great hoax, it was plausible enough to be true. Le Figaro has proclaimed, "The much-loved semicolon is in the process of disappearance; let us protect it," and there was even a brief attempt at a Committee for the Defense of the Semicolon-a modern update on the Anti-Comma League that France had back in 1934. French commentators blame the semicolon's decline on everything from "the modern need for speed" to the corrupting influence of English and its short, declarative sentences. It's a charge leveled for years stateside, too, with Sven Birkerts bemoaning the Internet's baleful influence on semicolons a decade ago.> > Has modern life killed the semicolon?> > The semicolon has a remarkable lineage: Ancient Greeks used it as a question mark; and after classical scholar and master printer Aldus Manutius revived it in a 1494 font set, semicolons slowly spread across Europe. Though London first saw semicolons appear in a 1568 chess guide, Shakespeare grew up in an era that still scarcely recognized them; some of his Folio typesetters in 1623, though, were clearly converts.> > Back then, the semicolon wasn't for interrogation or relating clauses; punctuation was still largely taught around oratorical pauses. The 1737 guide Bibliotheca Technologica recognizes "The comma (,) which stops the voice while you tell [count] one. The Semicolon (;) pauseth while you tell two. The Colon (:) while you tell three; and then period, or full stop (.) while you tell four." Lacking standards for how punctuation shades the meaning of sentences-and not just their oration-18th-century writers went berserk with the catchall mark.> > Take this extraordinary passage from Samuel Salter's Sermon Before the Sons of the Clergy (1755):> > It is evident then; that, if Atossa was the first inventress of the Epistles; these, that carry the name of Phalaris, who was so much older than her, must needs be an imposture.-But, if it be otherwise; that he does not describe me under those general reproaches; a small satisfaction shall content you; which I leave you to be the judge of. ... Pray, let me hear from you; as soon as you can.> > This chaos couldn't last: By the 1793 New Guide to the English Tongue, modern usage peeks through-"Its chief Use is in distinguishing Contraries, and frequent Division." Yet the older implication of a thoughtful pause always underlies the semicolon's appeal. Even as punctuation became more orderly, poet Samuel Coleridge mused that "the semicolon is far more common in the elder English Classics. ... It was perhaps used in excess by them; but the disuse seems a worse evil."> > As Coleridge hints, semicolons hit a speed bump with Romanticism's craze for dashes, for words that practically spasmed off the page. Take this sample from the 1814 poem The Orphans: "Dead-dead-quite dead-and pale-oh!-oh!"> > Yet in 1848 Edgar Allan Poe declared himself "mortified" by printers once again using too many semicolons. Poe may have the distinction of being the last writer to complain of the semicolon's popularity. By 1865, grammarian Justin Brenan could boast of "The rejection of the eternal semicolons of our ancestors. ... The semicolon has been gradually disappearing, not only from newspapers, but from books-insomuch that I believe instances could now be produced, of entire pages without a single semicolon."> > 1865? But surely that's a century off: Isn't modern life to blame?> > Not exactly: From the 1850s onward, it's virtually impossible to find anyone claiming a prevalence of semicolons in writing. We now lived, complained a critic in 1854, in a "fast era" that neglected punctuation; by 1895, the Times took it for granted that "[m]any writers have adopted the plan of punctuating as little as possible." What these writers intuited had an empirical basis: A 1995 study tallying punctuation in period texts found a stunning drop in semicolon usage between the 18th and 19th centuries, from 68.1 semicolons per thousand words to just 17.7.> > Researcher Paul Bruthiaux notes the steepest semicolon drop-off came in the mid-19th century-a finding that matches the gap between Poe's 1848 complaint and that 1865 "rejection." Technology is a leading suspect in rapid aesthetic shifts, so consider what debuted in the 1850s that might radically change language usage: the telegraph.> > Poe's 1848 comment came just three years before the founding of Western Union. The next decade saw lines strung across the country to create what science writer Tom Standage fittingly dubs the "Victorian Internet." And that's precisely when semicolon usage begin to slump.> > Perusing telegraph manuals reveals that Morse code is to the semicolon what weedkiller is to the dandelion. Punctuation was charged at the same rate as words, and their high price-trans-Atlantic cables originally cost a still-shocking $5 per word-meant that short, punchy lines with minimal punctuation were necessary among businessmen and journalists.> > By the new century, simplified punctuation migrated into textbooks; one 1903 guide recommended that "Boys and girls ... should as a rule use a period when they are tempted to use a semicolon." When the California State Board of Education adopted this textbook three years later, the mark's capitulation was perhaps inevitable. Harper's could decry the semicolon as "almost forgotten among proofreaders" in a 1924 article titled Our Passion for Haste, and the Atlantic that year could bemoan the "spot plague" of periods. So, too, in 1943, when the Times editorialized against "the war that is being waged in some quarters on the semicolon." Their favored villain was now "the writer of action fiction. ... The semicolon is the enemy of action; it is the agent of reflection and meditation."> > The semicolon has spent the last century as a fussbudget mark. Somerset Maugham and George Orwell disdained it; Kurt Vonnegut once informed a Tufts University crowd that "All [semicolons] do is show that you've been to college." New York mayor Fiorello LaGuardia's favorite put-down for egghead bureaucrats who got in his way was "semicolon boy." And though semicolons have occasionally made news-tariff bills have imploded over their misplacement, and a 1927 execution hinged on the interpretation of a semicolon-the last writers to receive much notice for semicolon use have been a New York City Transit employee and the Son of Sam. In 1977 the NYPD speculated that "the killer could be a freelance journalist" because of his "use of a semicolon" in his taunting letters. (Decades later, columnist Jimmy Breslin still marveled that "Berkowitz is the only murderer I ever heard of who knew how to use a semicolon.")> > Semicolons do have some genuine shortcomings; Slate's founding editor, Michael Kinsley, once noted to the Financial Times that "[t]he most common abuse of the semicolon, at least in journalism, is to imply a relationship between two statements without having to make clear what that relationship is." All journalists can cop to this: The semicolon allows woozy clauses to lean on each other like drunks for support.> > Yet semicolons serve a unique function, so it's tempting to think that some writers will always cling to them. When grading undergrad final papers recently, I found a near-absence of semicolons, save for one paper with cadenced pauses and carefully cantilevered clauses that gracefully stacked upon one another, Jenga-like, without ever quite toppling. Yet English was not this student's first language.> > He was an exchange student-from France.> Paul Collins teaches nonfiction at Portland State University. His latest book is The Trouble With Tom: The Strange Afterlife and Times of Thomas Paine.> > Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2194087/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or leave the list"> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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For some months (years?) now, I have been trying to find an article by a current (well, relatively current, he may even be dead by now) commentator on the cultural scene who sounded off vociferously against the semi-colon, wishing it the worst of health. It may have been Buckley, but more likely one of the less pompous radio/TV/newspaper pundits since my mother was a fan of whoever it was, and she detested Buckley. Anybody know what (or who) I'm talking about (since I so rarely do!).<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR>> Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:44:38 -0400<BR>> From: [log in to unmask]<BR>> Subject: the death of the semicolon<BR>> To: [log in to unmask]<BR>> <BR>> I thought you might like this amusing article (below, from Slate magazine) about semicolons. According to those who have commented on the article (comments summarized here http://www.slate.com/id/2194418/ ), at least some English teachers have been forbidding, or restricting, semi-colon use. This was news to me. I have creative writing colleagues who limit exclamation points (students get three exclamation points per semester), but hadn't heard that semi-colons were also on notice.<BR>> <BR>> Beth<BR>> <BR>> culturebox<BR>> ; (<BR>> Has modern life killed the semicolon?<BR>> By Paul Collins<BR>> Posted Friday, June 20, 2008, at 4:51 PM ET<BR>> <BR>> When the Times of London reported in 1837 on two University of Paris law profs dueling with swords, the dispute wasn't over the fine points of the Napoleonic Code. It was over the point-virgule: the semicolon. "The one who contended that the passage in question ought to be concluded by a semicolon was wounded in the arm," noted the Times. "His adversary maintained that it should be a colon."<BR>> <BR>> French passions over the semicolon are running high once again. An April Fool's hoax this year by the online publication Rue89 claimed that the Nicolas Sarkozy government planned to demand "at least three semicolons per page in official administrative documents." Parliamentarian Benoist Apparu was in on the joke-"The disappearance of the semicolon in Eastern France is absolutely dramatic," he gamely proclaimed-and linguist Alain Rey (barely) kept a straight face for a video calling Frenchmen to arms. Reporters were taken in, since, like every great hoax, it was plausible enough to be true. Le Figaro has proclaimed, "The much-loved semicolon is in the process of disappearance; let us protect it," and there was even a brief attempt at a Committee for the Defense of the Semicolon-a modern update on the Anti-Comma League that France had back in 1934. French commentators blame the semicolon's decline on everything from "the modern need for speed" to the corrupting influence of English and its short, declarative sentences. It's a charge leveled for years stateside, too, with Sven Birkerts bemoaning the Internet's baleful influence on semicolons a decade ago.<BR>> <BR>> Has modern life killed the semicolon?<BR>> <BR>> The semicolon has a remarkable lineage: Ancient Greeks used it as a question mark; and after classical scholar and master printer Aldus Manutius revived it in a 1494 font set, semicolons slowly spread across Europe. Though London first saw semicolons appear in a 1568 chess guide, Shakespeare grew up in an era that still scarcely recognized them; some of his Folio typesetters in 1623, though, were clearly converts.<BR>> <BR>> Back then, the semicolon wasn't for interrogation or relating clauses; punctuation was still largely taught around oratorical pauses. The 1737 guide Bibliotheca Technologica recognizes "The comma (,) which stops the voice while you tell [count] one. The Semicolon (;) pauseth while you tell two. The Colon (:) while you tell three; and then period, or full stop (.) while you tell four." Lacking standards for how punctuation shades the meaning of sentences-and not just their oration-18th-century writers went berserk with the catchall mark.<BR>> <BR>> Take this extraordinary passage from Samuel Salter's Sermon Before the Sons of the Clergy (1755):<BR>> <BR>> It is evident then; that, if Atossa was the first inventress of the Epistles; these, that carry the name of Phalaris, who was so much older than her, must needs be an imposture.-But, if it be otherwise; that he does not describe me under those general reproaches; a small satisfaction shall content you; which I leave you to be the judge of. ... Pray, let me hear from you; as soon as you can.<BR>> <BR>> This chaos couldn't last: By the 1793 New Guide to the English Tongue, modern usage peeks through-"Its chief Use is in distinguishing Contraries, and frequent Division." Yet the older implication of a thoughtful pause always underlies the semicolon's appeal. Even as punctuation became more orderly, poet Samuel Coleridge mused that "the semicolon is far more common in the elder English Classics. ... It was perhaps used in excess by them; but the disuse seems a worse evil."<BR>> <BR>> As Coleridge hints, semicolons hit a speed bump with Romanticism's craze for dashes, for words that practically spasmed off the page. Take this sample from the 1814 poem The Orphans: "Dead-dead-quite dead-and pale-oh!-oh!"<BR>> <BR>> Yet in 1848 Edgar Allan Poe declared himself "mortified" by printers once again using too many semicolons. Poe may have the distinction of being the last writer to complain of the semicolon's popularity. By 1865, grammarian Justin Brenan could boast of "The rejection of the eternal semicolons of our ancestors. ... The semicolon has been gradually disappearing, not only from newspapers, but from books-insomuch that I believe instances could now be produced, of entire pages without a single semicolon."<BR>> <BR>> 1865? But surely that's a century off: Isn't modern life to blame?<BR>> <BR>> Not exactly: From the 1850s onward, it's virtually impossible to find anyone claiming a prevalence of semicolons in writing. We now lived, complained a critic in 1854, in a "fast era" that neglected punctuation; by 1895, the Times took it for granted that "[m]any writers have adopted the plan of punctuating as little as possible." What these writers intuited had an empirical basis: A 1995 study tallying punctuation in period texts found a stunning drop in semicolon usage between the 18th and 19th centuries, from 68.1 semicolons per thousand words to just 17.7.<BR>> <BR>> Researcher Paul Bruthiaux notes the steepest semicolon drop-off came in the mid-19th century-a finding that matches the gap between Poe's 1848 complaint and that 1865 "rejection." Technology is a leading suspect in rapid aesthetic shifts, so consider what debuted in the 1850s that might radically change language usage: the telegraph.<BR>> <BR>> Poe's 1848 comment came just three years before the founding of Western Union. The next decade saw lines strung across the country to create what science writer Tom Standage fittingly dubs the "Victorian Internet." And that's precisely when semicolon usage begin to slump.<BR>> <BR>> Perusing telegraph manuals reveals that Morse code is to the semicolon what weedkiller is to the dandelion. Punctuation was charged at the same rate as words, and their high price-trans-Atlantic cables originally cost a still-shocking $5 per word-meant that short, punchy lines with minimal punctuation were necessary among businessmen and journalists.<BR>> <BR>> By the new century, simplified punctuation migrated into textbooks; one 1903 guide recommended that "Boys and girls ... should as a rule use a period when they are tempted to use a semicolon." When the California State Board of Education adopted this textbook three years later, the mark's capitulation was perhaps inevitable. Harper's could decry the semicolon as "almost forgotten among proofreaders" in a 1924 article titled Our Passion for Haste, and the Atlantic that year could bemoan the "spot plague" of periods. So, too, in 1943, when the Times editorialized against "the war that is being waged in some quarters on the semicolon." Their favored villain was now "the writer of action fiction. ... The semicolon is the enemy of action; it is the agent of reflection and meditation."<BR>> <BR>> The semicolon has spent the last century as a fussbudget mark. Somerset Maugham and George Orwell disdained it; Kurt Vonnegut once informed a Tufts University crowd that "All [semicolons] do is show that you've been to college." New York mayor Fiorello LaGuardia's favorite put-down for egghead bureaucrats who got in his way was "semicolon boy." And though semicolons have occasionally made news-tariff bills have imploded over their misplacement, and a 1927 execution hinged on the interpretation of a semicolon-the last writers to receive much notice for semicolon use have been a New York City Transit employee and the Son of Sam. In 1977 the NYPD speculated that "the killer could be a freelance journalist" because of his "use of a semicolon" in his taunting letters. (Decades later, columnist Jimmy Breslin still marveled that "Berkowitz is the only murderer I ever heard of who knew how to use a semicolon.")<BR>> <BR>> Semicolons do have some genuine shortcomings; Slate's founding editor, Michael Kinsley, once noted to the Financial Times that "[t]he most common abuse of the semicolon, at least in journalism, is to imply a relationship between two statements without having to make clear what that relationship is." All journalists can cop to this: The semicolon allows woozy clauses to lean on each other like drunks for support.<BR>> <BR>> Yet semicolons serve a unique function, so it's tempting to think that some writers will always cling to them. When grading undergrad final papers recently, I found a near-absence of semicolons, save for one paper with cadenced pauses and carefully cantilevered clauses that gracefully stacked upon one another, Jenga-like, without ever quite toppling. Yet English was not this student's first language.<BR>> <BR>> He was an exchange student-from France.<BR>> Paul Collins teaches nonfiction at Portland State University. His latest book is The Trouble With Tom: The Strange Afterlife and Times of Thomas Paine.<BR>> <BR>> Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2194087/ <BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>> and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! <a href='http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashback' target='_new'>Learn More</a></body>
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:27:59 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Ben Varner <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Northern Colorado
Subject: Re: the death of the semicolon
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See the following from Andy Rooney:
http://tinyurl.com/5739kg
Ben Varner
> For some months (years?) now, I have been trying to find an article by a
> current (well, relatively current, he may even be dead by now)
> commentator on the cultural scene who sounded off vociferously against
> the semi-colon, wishing it the worst of health. It may have been
> Buckley, but more likely one of the less pompous radio/TV/newspaper
> pundits since my mother was a fan of whoever it was, and she detested
> Buckley. Anybody know what (or who) I'm talking about (since I so
> rarely do!).
>
> Geoff Layton
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:28:20 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 25 Jun 2008 to 26 Jun 2008 (#2008-145)
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Scott,
I don't think the observation that earlier writers don't have our
modern sense of sentence is at all intended as an "allegation." I'm not
sure why you would think of it that way.
The idea that a sentence is a "complete thought" seems to me just a
shallow definition used for the narrow purpose of getting beginning
writers to avoid sentence fragments. (For the most part it doesn't
work, since many fragments will seem complete in context.) It also
replaces a deeper understanding. It's easier to memorize a definition
than it is to look closely at the complexity of what really happens
when words come together in the making of meaning.
To the extent that sentences are complete thoughts--not dependent on
sentences before and after for meaning and clarity--a text will lack
coherence. >
We have a great deal of flexibility in how much information we load up
into a sentence and a great deal of flexibility in how that information
is organized. Good writing is a complex interweaving of given and new.
It often makes references forward and backward, reminders and promises.
It may very well be that older writers are just as good as we are at
these rhetorical tasks. Bill's point--I think it's a good one--is that
we may be imposing our modern ideas of the sentence in ways that they
would not have intended and would not have recognized.
Much of the writing that remains from older centuries has been
preserved for very good reasons. I don't think we have necessarily
progressed as thinkers. That's a secondary issue.
Craig
------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:39:42 -0400
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24
> Jun
> 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
>
> Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well
> aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they
> necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary
> point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we
> may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a
> colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant
> to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write
> in sentences.
>
> I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.
> Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval
> MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin,
> German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to
> consider such allegations specious.
>
> Scott
> I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.
>
> ***********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
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>
> I would consider all three incorrect.
>
> 1. A subordinate clause following an independent clause is not set off
> by a comma unless the comma is needed to avoid ambiguity or other
> confusion.
> 2. The first clause is an incomplete thought that requires further
> explication. The second clause is a sentence fragment.
> 3. The first clause is an incomplete thought that requires further
> explication. The second clause is a sentence fragment. Subordinating
> conjunctions do not begin a sentence: they begin a subordinate clause.
>
> Even with my far stricter rules, the facsimiles and originals that I have
> read have what I consider sentences; i.e., express complete thoughts.
>
> My descriptive definition of a sentence is a group of words that express
> a complete thought.
>
> I will readily confess that, when a friend wished to study English grammar
> on his own and asked for three reference grammars, I recommended
> Jespersen,
> Curme, and Pence & Emery. I ran into him at a conference later; he had
> gotten his doctorate in English grammar but averred that he still
> preferred
> my three references and kept them on his desk in his office.
>
> No, I do not think that correct English stopped with the Victorians;
> however, I do think that the teaching of English grammar went to "hell in
> a handbasket" in the '60s when "Do your own thing" went from fringe social
> comment to educational policy. Far too many English teachers majored in
> literature and are prepared to teach that and nothing else. I have been
> away from public secondary schools for a quarter century, but during that
> 25 years I was reading applications for federal employment. In general,
> the applicants not only could not write using correct grammar and usage,
> they could not follow explicit written directions. Almost all of the
> applications that I reviewed were from college graduates. In one five-
> year period I reviewed over 500 applications from one top Southern CA
> university and not a single one both followed directions and remained
> free from egregious errors. One does not expect complete sentences in
> an application; one does expect correct usage and subject-verb agreement.
> Oh, well, what can you expect from applicants who complete 300 semester
> hours of psychology in only three years; I took psychology courses for
> 40 years and did not accumulate nearly so many.
>
> I am still waiting for someone to furnish references in medieval Romance
> or Germanic languages. I am aware that Medieval and Early Modern German
> embeds what we would consider independent clauses into sentences.
> "I can do all things through him, he makes me strong" vs.
> "I can do all things through him who strengthens me"
>
>
> Scott
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:10:14 -0400
> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24
> Jun
> 2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
>
> Scott:
>
> We're not questioning that Medieval writers had thoughts as complete as
> ours (or at least, I know I'm not questioning that, and I doubt anyone
> else would). It's just that the relation between "complete thought" and
> "sentence" isn't as straightforward as it's sometimes presented. Compare
> the following:
>
> 1. Most of us wanted pizza, although Bjarki wanted surstromming.
> 2. Most of us wanted pizza. *Although Bjarki wanted
> surstromming.
> 3. Most of us wanted pizza. However, Bjarki wanted surstromming.
>
> I'd have enormous trouble trying to support the claim that "although"
> gives you one complete thought in #1, but "however" leads to two
> complete thoughts in #3, and that anyone who wrote #2 (both parts, not
> just the second) was having incomplete thoughts. That *issue* would not,
> I think, have come up in the medieval period -- you wrote it, and it
> made sense, so it was complete.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
> ***********************************************************
>
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>
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>
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:34:49 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: the death of the semicolon
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Close enough! Thanks!
Geoff Layton> Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:27:59 -0600> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: the death of the semicolon> To: [log in to unmask]> > See the following from Andy Rooney:> > http://tinyurl.com/5739kg> > Ben Varner> > > > For some months (years?) now, I have been trying to find an article by a > > current (well, relatively current, he may even be dead by now) > > commentator on the cultural scene who sounded off vociferously against > > the semi-colon, wishing it the worst of health. It may have been > > Buckley, but more likely one of the less pompous radio/TV/newspaper > > pundits since my mother was a fan of whoever it was, and she detested > > Buckley. Anybody know what (or who) I'm talking about (since I so > > rarely do!).> > > > Geoff Layton> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or leave the list"> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Close enough! Thanks!<BR>
<BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR>> Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:27:59 -0600<BR>> From: [log in to unmask]<BR>> Subject: Re: the death of the semicolon<BTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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<p>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:14:49 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 25 Jun 2008 to 26 Jun 2008 (#2008-145)
In-Reply-To: A<001b01c8d8cb$1be6f260$6501a8c0@leordinateur>
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Scott --
One of, if not the, main point I've been trying to make is that our
modern notions of "sentence" have become bound into our ideas of
punctuation, and that our ideas of what then constitutes a "complete
thought" change to conform to the units punctuation creates. The core of
the punctuation system is "organic," in the sense that it reflects real
boundaries, real intonation patterns, etc., but there's plenty of stuff
around the margins that is a bit arbitrary -- like the "although" vs.
"however" issue. Grammatically, "although" and "however" behave
differently, but that difference does not automatically entail that
"however" renders a single clause a complete thought, while "although"
renders it incomplete.
Or to put it another way -- if you *speak* those lines, they sound
complete. It's not until you write them down and add punctuation that
people start saying that an although-clause is a fragment but a
however-linked clause isn't. In speech, it's a fragment if the hearer
doesn't have enough context to interpret what you said, or if what
you've said leads the hearer to expect more -- and just try starting a
conversation with a line like, "However, I don't really agree" and see
how complete your audience thinks it is.
In the modern context, "complete thought" refers to something that a
style guide would say is not a fragment, but there can be differences
between that and what listeners think is complete or not in speech.
That's the main reason why the "complete thought" definition doesn't
help writers who are having trouble with fragments. It's as if we've
said, "Don't write sentences that are octagonal, because that produces
shards," and when the student says "How do I know if it's octagonal or
not?" we reply, "It's octagonal if it produces a shard" (or substitute
in any other words you like -- wine-tasting vocabulary would work well).
A side note about commas and subordinate clauses: I *think* most modern
editors would view a comma before a subordinate clause that follows a
main clause to be an example of the "optional comma" category (I'm sure
list members will correct me if I'm wrong). After the 18th- and
19th-century commafest, there was a movement to declare all commas
forbidden unless they were mandatory -- no choices! I think the pendulum
has swung a bit more to the middle. The comma is still mandatory after
an initial subordinate clause (in formal writing), but it's not
forbidden before a post-main subordinate clause.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 11:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 25 Jun 2008 to 26 Jun 2008 (#2008-145)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:39:42 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24
Jun
2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
Having read facsimiles and a few original medieval documents, I am well
aware that they did not have our modern sentence structure nor did they
necessarily start with a capital and end with a period. The primary
point is that they did have complete thoughts and wrote them. That we
may choose to punctuate them by joining two independent clauses with a
colon or semicolon in lieu of having two short sentences is irrelevant
to the concept that medieval writers did not, as a general rule, write
in sentences.
I must be missing some critical point. All I read are allegations.
Unless someone gets on line and starts citing a number of medieval
MSS that do not have complete sentences) preferably MSS in Latin,
German, or Romance languages (Koine is too argumentative), I tend to
consider such allegations specious.
Scott
I'm from MS not MO, but show me anyway.
***********************************************************
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I would consider all three incorrect.
1. A subordinate clause following an independent clause is not set off
by a comma unless the comma is needed to avoid ambiguity or other
confusion.
2. The first clause is an incomplete thought that requires further
explication. The second clause is a sentence fragment.
3. The first clause is an incomplete thought that requires further
explication. The second clause is a sentence fragment. Subordinating
conjunctions do not begin a sentence: they begin a subordinate clause.
Even with my far stricter rules, the facsimiles and originals that I
have
read have what I consider sentences; i.e., express complete thoughts.
My descriptive definition of a sentence is a group of words that express
a complete thought.
I will readily confess that, when a friend wished to study English
grammar
on his own and asked for three reference grammars, I recommended
Jespersen,
Curme, and Pence & Emery. I ran into him at a conference later; he had
gotten his doctorate in English grammar but averred that he still
preferred
my three references and kept them on his desk in his office.
No, I do not think that correct English stopped with the Victorians;
however, I do think that the teaching of English grammar went to "hell
in
a handbasket" in the '60s when "Do your own thing" went from fringe
social
comment to educational policy. Far too many English teachers majored in
literature and are prepared to teach that and nothing else. I have been
away from public secondary schools for a quarter century, but during
that
25 years I was reading applications for federal employment. In general,
the applicants not only could not write using correct grammar and usage,
they could not follow explicit written directions. Almost all of the
applications that I reviewed were from college graduates. In one five-
year period I reviewed over 500 applications from one top Southern CA
university and not a single one both followed directions and remained
free from egregious errors. One does not expect complete sentences in
an application; one does expect correct usage and subject-verb
agreement.
Oh, well, what can you expect from applicants who complete 300 semester
hours of psychology in only three years; I took psychology courses for
40 years and did not accumulate nearly so many.
I am still waiting for someone to furnish references in medieval Romance
or Germanic languages. I am aware that Medieval and Early Modern German
embeds what we would consider independent clauses into sentences.
"I can do all things through him, he makes me strong" vs.
"I can do all things through him who strengthens me"
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:10:14 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sentences are modern inventions. NOT; was ATEG Digest - 24
Jun
2008 to 25 Jun 2008 (#2008-144)
Scott:
We're not questioning that Medieval writers had thoughts as complete as
ours (or at least, I know I'm not questioning that, and I doubt anyone
else would). It's just that the relation between "complete thought" and
"sentence" isn't as straightforward as it's sometimes presented. Compare
the following:
1. Most of us wanted pizza, although Bjarki wanted surstromming.
2. Most of us wanted pizza. *Although Bjarki wanted
surstromming.
3. Most of us wanted pizza. However, Bjarki wanted surstromming.
I'd have enormous trouble trying to support the claim that "although"
gives you one complete thought in #1, but "however" leads to two
complete thoughts in #3, and that anyone who wrote #2 (both parts, not
just the second) was having incomplete thoughts. That *issue* would not,
I think, have come up in the medieval period -- you wrote it, and it
made sense, so it was complete.=20
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:46:21 EDT
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Edgar Schuster <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Punctuation of terminal subordinate clauses
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1 The question of whether to use a comma before a terminal subordinate
clause is quite complex (ever) since the grammar cops entered the picture.
2 The question of whether to use a comma before a terminal subordinate
clauses is quite complex, since it depends upon so many factors.
This is just one illustration of the statement in 2. Here, the "since" of
time typically does not use a comma, the "since" of reason typically does.
Terminal "though" and "although" clauses are typically set off.
Of course, there are editors and there are editors, as I've learned in my 50
year association with the publishing industry. (Note the comma before the
"as.")
Ed Schuster
**************
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Geneva" FAMILY="SANSSERIF" SIZE="2"> 1 The question of whether to use a comma before a terminal subordinate clause is quite complex (ever) since the grammar cops entered the picture.<BR>
2 The question of whether to use a comma before a terminal subordinate clauses is quite complex, since it depends upon so many factors.<BR>
<BR>
This is just one illustration of the statement in 2. Here, the "since" of time typically does not use a comma, the "since" of reason typically does. Terminal "though" and "although" clauses are typically set off.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there are editors and there are editors, as I've learned in my 50 year association with the publishing industry. (Note the comma before the "as.") <BR>
<BR>
Ed Schuster</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Geneva" FAMILY="SANSSERIF" SIZE="2"></FONT><BR><BR><BR>**************<BR>Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.<BR> (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)</HTML>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:35:36 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Youse guysATEG Digest - 22 Jun 2008 to 23 Jun 2008 (#2008-142)
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I think it's pretty wide-spread in Northern American English, all across western NY, the Lake Erie coast, and into Michigan. I don't have a copy of the Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE), but I suspect it would define the distribution pretty well.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: 2008-06-24 03:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Youse guysATEG Digest - 22 Jun 2008 to 23 Jun 2008 (#2008-142)
I have only heard "Youse guys" in Brooklyn; however, I dated a young lady
from Colorado in high school in Florida, whose speech was reasonably
Southern except for her referring to a group--even of all girls--as "You
guys."
Scott
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