Back in the sixties, I learned that two plus two is four. But, it was explained that it was an understood: "The sum of" ...
Bob Miller
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Susan van Druten
Sent: Mon 6/16/2008 10:19 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
What is the sum of one and zero? are it one? or is it one? Math does not follow the grammatical rules. I can count the number of people who have responded to this thread. But if I use math to count them, I will come up with an amount and not a number of people.
On Jun 16, 2008, at 9:03 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
I've heard "two plus two are four," or more frequently "two twos are four" from British and West African speakers, but that goes back a few years.
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Allen-Kirkhouse [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: June 16, 2008 6:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four." Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers didn't know grammar. ;-)
Dee
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul E. Doniger<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:
"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM
A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both
preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number
of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject
slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I
won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.
Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as
loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.
Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject
slot is beyond me.
Craig
Hi again everyone,
I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second
edition) by
Maimon, Peritz, and
Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a
word
group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f a word
group beginning
with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,
the subject does not become plural" (478).
Their example: My teacher, as well as other faculty members,
opposes
the new school policy.
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM
Morning everyone
I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about
such things!
Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you.
Indeed
two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in
Writing
and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that
principle
elsewhere in W&T. F&S call
this sentence, "He, as
well as his friends, was present" right but awkward. I
suspect
they'd use the same classification for the S&W
sentence. Though
without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means
simply
"and."
I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn
Troyka. Maybe
we can get some consensus from her.
BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective"
a bit
prematurely. I'm still working out that theory, but I'll
get back to
you.
Michael
-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
<[log in to unmask]>: --------------
Michael,
You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
?authorities? are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
consensus.
Dick
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
Rare Books
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
Dick et al
Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is
objectionable"
doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that
"as well as his
manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something
akin
to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby
plural. Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb
should be
as well. Many subjects succeeded by "as well
as" are intended
indeed to be singular. The subject/example you provided, in most
contexts, emphatically is NOT. Grammar, like language and
concepts,
is contextual and objective.
Michael
-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"
<[log in to unmask]>: --------------
Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
but wish it sounded right too. For example, change ?manner? to
?manners?
in the Strunk and White example and it doesn?t seem as clear cut:
"His
speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
Dick Veit
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".
Strunk and
White give the following example: "His speech as well as his
manner
is objectionable" (21).
I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and
"as well as"
changes that in your sentence though.
--- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
have no trouble with:
Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
educated about HPV.
And pretty sure about this:
Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
is educated about HPV.
But what about this one?
Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
agree with ?society? only (i.e., ?is?)? Or do we treat ?as well
as? as
equivalent to ?and,? making ?are? the right choice? I seek your
informed
guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
welcome.
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
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