What is the sum of one and zero? are it one? or is it one? Math does not follow the grammatical rules. I can count the number of people who have responded to this thread. But if I use math to count them, I will come up with an amount and not a number of people.

On Jun 16, 2008, at 9:03 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:

I've heard "two plus two are four," or more frequently "two twos are four" from British and West African speakers, but that goes back a few years.

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.

Emeritus Professor of English

Ball State University

Muncie, IN 47306

[log in to unmask]

________________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Allen-Kirkhouse [[log in to unmask]]

Sent: June 16, 2008 6:50 PM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question

That's a mathematical equation, and according to the American Heritage dictionary, the correct usage is "two plus two is four." Just goes to show that our elementary school arithmetic teachers didn't know grammar. ;-)

Dee

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul E. Doniger<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

Sent: 6/16/2008 2:42:42 PM

Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question

And yet, all through elementary school, we were hammered with reminders that "two plus two are (not is) four."

Paul D.

----- Original Message ----

From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>

To: [log in to unmask]

Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:24:15 PM

Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question

This is from The Writer's Digest Grammar Desk Reference by Gary Lutz & Diane Stevenson:

"Do not confuse the prepositions plus, in addition to, along with, and as well as with the coordinating conjunction and. And is the only word that can unite two or more nouns or pronouns to form a compound-additive subject. The nounal or pronominal contents of a prepositional phrase beginning with plus, in addition to, along with, or as well as have no influence on the singularity or plurality of the verb of the clause, and any such prepositional phrase is almost always set off with commas at both ends" (86).

--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>

Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question

To: [log in to unmask]

Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:18 PM

A quick look at a few dictionaries shows that "as well as" can be both

preposition and conjunction. A quick google search shows a huge number

of examples of "as well as" as conjunction, but not in the subject

slot, which may be a reaction to the usage difficulties around it. I

won't have access to the OED until tomorrow.

   Typically, Merriam-Webster college dictionary lists "brave as well as

loyal" as an example of "as well as" as conjunction.

   Why we would have to treat a compound so created as singular in subject

slot is beyond me.

Craig

Hi again everyone,

 

I have another reference: A Writer's Resource (second

edition) by

Maimon, Peritz, and

Yancey. The authors warn, "[do] not lose sight of the subject when a

word

group separates it from the verb" and "[i]f  a word

group beginning

with as well as, along with, or in addition to follows a singular subject,

the subject does not become plural" (478).

Their example:  My teacher, as well as other faculty members,

opposes

the new school policy.

--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books

<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Michael Keith Pen Ultimate Rare Books

<[log in to unmask]>

Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question

To: [log in to unmask]

Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 11:29 AM

Morning everyone

 

I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into

trouble.  So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about

such things!

 

Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you. 

Indeed

two of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in

Writing

and Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,

colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that 

principle

elsewhere in W&T.   F&S call

this sentence, "He, as

well as his friends, was present" right but awkward.  I

suspect

they'd use the same classification for the S&W

sentence.  Though

without those commas, it strikes me that "as well as" means

simply

"and." 

 

I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn

Troyka.  Maybe

we can get some consensus from her. 

 

BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective" 

a bit

prematurely.  I'm still working out that theory, but I'll

get back to

you.

 

Michael

 

 

-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"

<[log in to unmask]>: --------------

Michael,

 

You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol

below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying

?authorities? are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find

textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a

preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon

consensus.

 

Dick

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate

Rare Books

Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question

 

Dick et al

 

Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is

objectionable"

doesn't sound right.  In that sentence I suspect that

"as well as his

manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something

akin

to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby

plural.  Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb

should be

as well.  Many subjects succeeded by "as well

as" are intended

indeed to be singular.  The subject/example you provided, in most

contexts, emphatically is NOT.  Grammar, like language and

concepts,

is contextual and objective.

 

Michael  

-------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard"

<[log in to unmask]>: --------------

Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually

but wish it sounded right too. For example, change ?manner? to

?manners?

in the Strunk and White example and it doesn?t seem as clear cut:

"His

speech as well as his manners is objectionable."

 

Dick Veit

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison

Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question

 

According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular

subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,

as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).

So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is".

Strunk and

White give the following example: "His speech as well as his

manner

is objectionable" (21).

I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and

"as well as"

changes that in your sentence though.

 

--- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>

Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question

To: [log in to unmask]

Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM

A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I

have no trouble with:

 

Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.

Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.

Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are

educated about HPV.

 

And pretty sure about this:

 

Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)

is educated about HPV.

 

But what about this one?

 

Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk

individuals, is/are educated about HPV.

 

Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should

agree with ?society? only (i.e., ?is?)? Or do we treat ?as well

as? as

equivalent to ?and,? making ?are? the right choice? I seek your

informed

guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially

welcome.

 

Dick

________________________________

Richard Veit

Department of English

University of North Carolina Wilmington

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface

at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or

leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface

at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or

leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface

at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or

leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this

LISTSERV

list, please visit the list's web interface at:

http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or

leave

the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this

LISTSERV

list, please visit the list's web interface at:

http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or

leave

the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this

LISTSERV

list, please visit the list's web interface at:

http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or

leave

the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface

at:

   http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html

and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface

at:

   http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html

and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:

   http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html

and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/