I would attach 'with...' to 'perhaps', not vice versa. I would also diagram 'John is easy to please' to show 'to please' as the subject. Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2008 to 17 Nov 2008 (#2008-239) There are 10 messages totalling 1232 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Please analyse this - from John Curran (6) 2. "...and sometimes w" (4) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 08:08:15 -0500 From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran --============_-985195151==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" John, The only R&K problem I see is the "perhaps" that modifies the final adverbial prepositional phrase. When a structure modifies the sentence as a whole, we put it on a separate line. But in this case it modifies a whole phrase that's within the sentence--not the sentence as a whole. I guess I'd attach it to "with" in the same way that I'd attach "extremely" to "wealthy"--but it wouldn't really be accurate. R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function. Other than that "with" problem, John, you can do it, I'll betcha! Martha >Following is an article from yesterday's "The Japan Times". I gave >it to a couple of my adult classes here in Tokyo for discussion; for >my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but >interesting from the current political position: > > "Amid dismal approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is >trying hard these days to shed his public image as an aloof, rich >politician from an extremely wealthy family, perhaps with an eye >toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an election". > >I try to discuss parts of interesting newspaper articles and I >encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their >spare time. Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving >finger and pursed lips and my objective is to try to encourage them >to recognize the 'chunks' of language from a mainly functional >perspective. Chunks of language in the form of noun groups >(including their adjectivals), adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic >Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This is how I went about >analyzing the newspaper text: > > > Amid dismal approval ratings, > prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial (how?), > > Prime Minister Taro Aso > Noun group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional language) > > is trying > predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in >Systemic Functional language) > > hard these days > adverbials,(Circumstances) > > [[to shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an >extremely wealthy family]] > Complement (is trying what?) embedded clause functioning as a >Participant in Systemic Functional language. > > perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time >comes to call an election > adverbial - Circumstance modifying the previous clause. > > >I read aloud with the students and ask them relevant wh? questions >to elicit the 'chunks' of language. Comments please on this? Has >anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the >forum? >I like to see it diagrammed! > > John > > > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >select "Join or leave the list" >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --============_-985195151==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 } --></style><title>Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran</title></head><body> <div>John,</div> <div><br></div> <div>The only R&K problem I see is the "perhaps" that modifies the final adverbial prepositional phrase. When a structure modifies the sentence as a whole, we put it on a separate line. But in this case it modifies a whole phrase that's within the sentence--not the sentence as a whole. I guess I'd attach it to "with" in the same way that I'd attach "extremely" to "wealthy"--but it wouldn't really be accurate.</div> <div><br></div> <div>R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.</div> <div><br></div> <div>Other than that "with" problem, John, you can do it, I'll betcha!</div> <div> </div> <div>Martha</div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">Following is an article from yesterday's "The Japan Times". I gave it to a couple of my adult classes here in Tokyo for discussion; for my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but interesting from the current political position:</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite> "Amid dismal approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is trying hard these days to shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely wealthy family, perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an election".</blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">I try to discuss parts of interesting newspaper articles and I encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their spare time. Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving finger and pursed lips and my objective is to try to encourage them to recognize the 'chunks' of language from a mainly functional perspective. Chunks of language in the form of noun groups (including their adjectivals), adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This is how I went about analyzing the newspaper text:</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> Amid dismal approval ratings,</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial (how?),</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> Prime Minister Taro Aso</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> Noun group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional language)</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> is trying</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in Systemic Functional language)</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> hard these days</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> adverbials,(Circumstances)</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> [[to shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely wealthy family]]</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> Complement (is trying what?) embedded clause functioning as a Participant in Systemic Functional language.</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an election</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> adverbial - Circumstance modifying the previous clause.</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">I read aloud with the students and ask them relevant wh? questions to elicit the 'chunks' of language. Comments please on this? Has anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the forum?</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">I like to see it diagrammed!</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> John</font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> </font></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"</blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</blockquote> <div><br></div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --============_-985195151==_ma============-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:22:22 -0600 From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha. >>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>> R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20 structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20 sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20 **** My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed = the same. 1) John is easy to please. 2) John is eager to please. The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences. = In (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of = please. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:24:54 -0700 From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran This discussion sounds familiar (2005, 2006). If R&K is liberalized, the s= entences you distinguish may be diagrammed with their respective (deep) str= uctures. The authors themselves claimed that by diagramming you could get = too involved with analysis and cautioned against it.=20=20 I have drawn up possible diagrams for these sentences and will post them on= my site, as an appendix to my commentary on R&K:=20=20 http://userpages.burgoyne.com/bdespain/grammar/rk_gram/r_k_toc1.htm I'll put them in section 25 tonight sometime. I hope this will help.=20=20 Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:22 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha. >>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>> R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20 structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20 sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20 **** My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed the= same. 1) John is easy to please. 2) John is eager to please. The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences. In= (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of please. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s= ) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized= review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the = intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al= l copies of the original message. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:16:54 -0500 From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> John,<br> I won't repeat the comments from others, which I find highly relevant. To me, it's important that Prime Minister Taro Aso is grammatical subject and actor (person doing the trying), but is not theme. In this case, "Amid dismal approval ratings" is the marked theme stepping off point, something that wouldn't show up in an RK diagram (or any analysis on constituency alone.) There are, in fact, three intonation groups in the sentence. It might be interesting to look at those as deliberate choices. At any rate, "amid dismal approval ratings" colors everything that follows. <br> It's interesting that "is trying" is not qualified. It seems like the writer is sure of the attempt, but not sure of the results. We also have "perhaps" as a qualifier for the last group. So the writer is unsure of results and unsure of some intentions. Ending with "election" also presents his actions as approval oriented, a definite construal of the process. <br> I would see "is trying to shed" as somewhat schematic. It can almost be looked at as the whole main verb, which raises the complex noun phrase that follows "shed' perhaps up to the level of participant. (Think of "is shedding", "may shred", "will shred" as alternatives.) "His public image as an aloof, rich politician from a wealthy family" jumps out at you. It is, of course, linked to low disapproval ratings just by being juxtaposed.<br> To me, everything depends on seeing alternatives and discussing the nuances. The writer is construing the activity in a certain way, even while trying to maintain an air of journalistic objectivity. Implication? If he can't change his image, he's doomed.<br> <br> Craig<br> <br> John Curran wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:20081116012914.BWTX1408.smtp21.m3.home.ne.jp@GATEWAY" type="cite"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; "> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:Arial; color:windowtext;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style></o:SmartTagType></o:SmartTagType> <div class="Section1"> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Following is an article from yesterday’s “The Japan Times”. I gave it to a couple of my adult classes here in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:City></st1:place> for discussion; for my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but interesting from the current political position:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"> “Amid dismal approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is trying hard these days to shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely wealthy family, perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an election”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I try to discuss parts of interesting newspaper articles and I encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their spare time. Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving finger and pursed lips and my objective is to try to encourage them to recognize the ‘chunks’ of language from a mainly functional perspective. Chunks of language in the form of noun groups (including their adjectivals), adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This is how I went about analyzing the newspaper text:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Amid dismal approval ratings,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial (how?), <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Prime Minister Taro Aso<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Noun group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional language)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> is trying<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in Systemic Functional language)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> hard these days<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> adverbials,(Circumstances)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> [[to shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely wealthy family]]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Complement (is trying what?) embedded clause functioning as a Participant in Systemic Functional language.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an election<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> adverbial – Circumstance modifying the previous clause.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I read aloud with the students and ask them relevant wh? questions to elicit the ‘chunks’ of language. Comments please on this? Has anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the forum?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I like to see it diagrammed!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> John<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio. edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a> </p> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:19:57 -0500 From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C948FA.3E0715F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John - =20 I suspect that with that sentence - and with many, many others in English-language newspapers - your students are having trouble with "chunking" and interpretation partly because they will tend to approach idiomatic language literally. As a native English-speaker, I read "with an eye to" almost as a single element, and so "eye" in that expression doesn't have the same list of alternate choices as "eye" used normally does. One limitation of what we might call "plain vanilla RK" is that it has no device for indicating the status of idioms as idioms, although it isn't difficult to tweak it to do so. =20 Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C948FA.3E0715F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:windowtext;} span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>John –<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>I suspect that with that sentence – and with many, = many others in English-language newspapers – your students are having = trouble with “chunking” and interpretation partly because they will = tend to approach idiomatic language literally. As a native English-speaker, I = read “with an eye to” almost as a single element, and so “eye” in = that expression doesn’t have the same list of alternate choices as = “eye” used normally does. One limitation of what we might call = “plain vanilla RK” is that it has no device for indicating the status of = idioms as idioms, although it isn’t difficult to tweak it to do = so.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Central Michigan University <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C948FA.3E0715F8-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:26:02 -0500 From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran Bob, Since I have a stack of essay exams I'm supposed to be grading, I'll quibble with you on this one. While the eager to / easy to alternation is certainly amenable to analysis in terms of deep syntactic structure and subject/object distinctions, one can also characterize the alternation in terms of different semantic roles associated with the elements (so in effect, it's more like an agent/patient distinction, rather than a subject/object one). R&K's failure to show a difference between these two, in that kind of analysis, isn't a failure to indicate structural relations -- and no one's ever said R&K is that good at indicating semantic roles, despite the way it cheats with indirect objects. Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University=20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:22 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha. >>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>> R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20 structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20 sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20 **** My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed the same. 1) John is easy to please. 2) John is eager to please. The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences. In (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of please. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:32:59 -0500 From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: "...and sometimes w" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C94904.73085169 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like growth, flaw, and few?=20 ________________________________ Richard Veit Department of English University of North Carolina Wilmington =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C94904.73085169 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:ns0=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"City"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PlaceName"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PlaceType"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"place"/> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:Arial; color:windowtext;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>A student asked me a question that I couldn’t immediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that “the = vowels are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.” = He was fine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such = as <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>by, psych, hysteria</span></i>, and <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>silly</span></i>. But what about w? Are = there any English words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage = merely refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words = like <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>growth</span></i>, <i><span = style=3D'font-style:italic'>flaw</span></i>, and <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>few</span></i>? = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:teal'>Richard Veit<br> Department of English<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" = w:insDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" = w:endInsDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span = style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceT= ype><font color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z" = w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:endInsDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font = color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'>North = Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City = w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:endInsDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:endInsDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place = w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span = style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0= :place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C94904.73085169-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:12:06 -0500 From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w" Someone at a = blog--http://www.thelookmachine.com/archives/2005/10/sometimes_y_and.html= --asked the same question, and, for whatever it's worth, they came up = with two obscure words derived from Welsh: =20 "'Cwm' -- a mountaineering term, pronounced like "room" but with a "k." = It's basically a basin like edge of a valley, much like a cirque. ...And = "Crwth" - which means, roughly, 'crowd.'" =20 A commenter on the blog then mentioned the word "pwned," which = apparently derives from a typo of "owned" (used to mean "badly = defeated") in the "World of Warcraft" computer game.But I don't suppose = this is what your student's grade school teachers had in mind. =20 Brian ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Veit, = Richard Sent: Mon 11/17/2008 5:32 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: "...and sometimes w" =20 =20 =20 A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In = grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e, = i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which = occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, = hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in = which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer = to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like = growth, flaw, and few?=20 ________________________________ Richard Veit Department of English University of North Carolina Wilmington =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select = "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:56:15 -0800 From: David Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----974b30df1d428aa6633a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's hard to know what was meant, but take the sound [u] or 'oo' as in 'hoot' and put it at the front of a word like "why" transcribed as a kind of diphthong [ "oo" plus "y" ]. Crazy I know, but letter "w" can sometimes be viewed that way, and does show up that way in early childhood "invented spellings." -dh Dr. David Hargreaves Professor, Linguistics Humanities Division Western Oregon University (503) 838-8764 http://www.wou.edu/~hargred/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ----974b30df1d428aa6633a Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <DIV>It's hard to know what was meant, but take the sound [u] or 'oo' as in 'hoot' and put it at the front of a word like "why" transcribed as a kind of diphthong [ "oo" plus "y" ]. Crazy I know, but letter "w" can sometimes be viewed that way, and does show up that way in early childhood "invented spellings." -dh<BR><BR><BR>Dr. David Hargreaves <BR>Professor, Linguistics <BR>Humanities Division <BR>Western Oregon University <BR>(503) 838-8764 <BR>http://www.wou.edu/~hargred/<BR><BR></DIV> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ----974b30df1d428aa6633a-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:39:10 -0800 From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w" --0-1449302740-1226968750=:98672 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One reason the grade schooler is taught this is so he doesn't misapply the = rule about doubling the final consonant in one syllable words when adding -= ed or -ing.=A0 For instance, <hit> to <hitting>, but not <flaw> to <flawwed= >.=A0 I don't know any words a schoolboy might know with w as the vowel of = a syllable.=20 =A0 Scott Woods --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> Subject: "...and sometimes w" To: [log in to unmask] Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 3:32 PM A student asked me a question that I couldn=92t immediately answer. In grad= e school he learned the adage that =93the vowels are the letters a, e, i, o= , u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.=94 He was fine with y, which occurs a= s the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, hysteria, and sil= ly. But what about w? Are there any English words in which w is the sole vo= wel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer to the use of w in combi= nation with other vowels, such as in words like growth, flaw, and few?=20 ________________________________ Richard Veit Department of English University of North Carolina Wilmington =A0To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa= ce at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or le= ave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A=0A=0A To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1449302740-1226968750=:98672 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"= top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>One reason the grade schooler is taught = this is so he doesn't misapply the rule about doubling the final consonant = in one syllable words when adding -ed or -ing. For instance, <hit&= gt; to <hitting>, but not <flaw> to <flawwed>. I do= n't know any words a schoolboy might know with w as the vowel of a syllable= . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scott Woods<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 11/17/08, Veit, Richard <I><veit@= UNCW.EDU></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(= 16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject:= "...and sometimes w"<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Monday, Nove= mber 17, 2008, 3:32 PM<BR><BR> <DIV id=3Dyiv1779685639> <STYLE> <!-- #yiv1779685639 =20 #yiv1779685639 p.MsoNormal, #yiv1779685639 li.MsoNormal, #yiv1779685639 div= .MsoNormal =09{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times Ne= w Roman";} #yiv1779685639 a:link, #yiv1779685639 span.MsoHyperlink =09{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv1779685639 a:visited, #yiv1779685639 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed =09{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv1779685639 span.EmailStyle17 =09{font-family:Arial;color:windowtext;} _filtered #yiv1779685639 {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} #yiv1779685639 div.Section1 =09{} --> </STYLE> <DIV class=3DSection1> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A student asked me a question that I couldn=92t i= mmediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that =93the vowels = are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.=94 He was f= ine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as <I= ><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">by, psych, hysteria</SPAN></I>, and <I>= <SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">silly</SPAN></I>. But what about w? Are = there any English words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does= this adage merely refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, = such as in words like <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">growth</SPAN></= I>, <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">flaw</SPAN></I>, and <I><SPAN sty= le=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">few</SPAN></I>? </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dteal size=3D2><SPAN style= =3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: teal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">_____________________= ___________</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dteal size=3D2><SPAN style= =3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: teal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Richard Veit<BR>Depar= tment of English<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style= =3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"= COLOR: teal">University</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLO= R: teal"> of </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: teal">N= orth Carolina</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: teal"> = </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: teal">Wilmington</SP= AN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D= "FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>To join or leave this LIS= TSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohi= o.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 <DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></t= d></tr></table><br>=0A=0A To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1449302740-1226968750=:98672-- ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2008 to 17 Nov 2008 (#2008-239) *********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/