John and Craig,

In his essay "In Defense of the Absolute," Francis Christensen mentions that "with" can begin an absolute phrase. He calls it an "empty" word, and elsewhere calls it a "marker" of the absolute. It can be deleted, and you still have the absolute phrase. It is especially useful to alert the reader when it begins the sentence.

With the newcomers hopeless and forlorn, and the old team worn out by twenty-five hundred miles of continuous trail, the outlook was anything but bright. [Jack London]


Christensen also gives credit to Curme
for recognizing that in popular speech, especially in Irish, the
construction is sometimes introduced by "and" ("Did you not hear his
reverence, and he speaking to you now?" [Synge]) and that in this
construction, as elsewhere in popular speech, the nominative is
often replaced by the accusative ("It will be a very good match for
me, m'm, me being an orphan girl" [Wells]).

--
Don Stewart
Write for College
______________________
Keeper of the memory and method
of Dr. Francis Christensen

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home."  Here the infinitive "to go" functions as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place.  Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the action of
the infinitive.  It's quite common actually.  "We consider him to be
completely honest."  "The teacher let us decorate the room."  "We left
after seeing him break the record."

Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:46:02 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Correct? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 If you confine yourself, as most texts as well as the Quirk et al. grammar = do, then you'll probably find something like an SVOO pattern and an SVOC pa= ttern. The former is for ditransitives. The latter covers complex transit= ives, or object complement constructions. Because these models of grammar = do not involve derivation, object + infinitive constructions will fall into= this pattern as well. So, yes, "we wanted him to go home" and "we elected= him president" have the same pattern. As to the treatment of nominative a= bsolutes as containing an implied "be," you're right. Herb Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D. Emeritus Professor of English Ball State University Muncie, IN 47306 [log in to unmask] ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask] U] On Behalf Of Scott Woods [[log in to unmask]] Sent: November 30, 2008 8:15 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Correct? What would be the negative implications, pedagogically, analytically, or ot= herwise, with 7th graders, of treating sentences like "We wanted him to go = home" as containing a direct object and an object complement, rather than u= sing the infinitive as the direct object in the same way we might analyze "= We elected him president" ? Also, is it a faulty analysis to think of abso= lutes as containing an implied "be," the lack of which makes them a clause,= and the insertion of which is a test for being an absolute? That is, are = absolutes basically clauses with the "be" dropped? Scott Woods --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Correct? To: [log in to unmask] Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:37 AM In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill wanted him to go home." Here the infinitive "to go" functions as the direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take place. Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the action of the infinitive. It's quite common actually. "We consider him to be completely honest." "The teacher let us decorate the room." "We left after seeing him break the record." Clinton Atchley, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English Box 7652 1100 Henderson Street Henderson State University Arkadelphia, AR 71999 Phone: 870.230.5276 Email: [log in to unmask] Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Correct? I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns. This is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on pragmatic roles and marking focus. Like Craig, I would probably use the subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object pronouns in non-object position. Herb Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D. Emeritus Professor of English Ball State University Muncie, IN 47306 [log in to unmask] ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]] Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Correct? You are dead on as usual. I see now that calling them absolutes is a much more logical analysis. The possibly understood "with" is great! Thanks, Craig. John On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: John, I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.) My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with "with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns. Hope that helps. Craig > What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below? > They > feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects. Is it correct to > use > the objective pronouns in these structures? > > *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables > overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a > pen > and paper. > > *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving! > > Thanks, > John > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/