Brad Johnston wrote:

That's funny Brad. Sentence diagramming may be something like a surrey with the fringe on top, but it can still be a useful pedagogical and analytical tool; it isn't just a convenient amusement for children on sunny afternoons. That said, being forced to do it in the fifth grade cured me of any interest in grammar for about the next twenty years.

Mark

[log in to unmask]" type="cite">


var ss0ImageUrls = descImageUrls = [ [ "http://i18.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/0c/1d/0f6d_1.JPG", "http://i18.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/0c/1d/0f6d_2.JPG", "http://i18.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/0c/1d/0f6d_0.JPG","http://i18.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/0c/1d/0f6d_1.JPG" ] ];
HIGHER LESSONS IN ENGLISH 1896 ANTIQUE BOOK REED KELLOG
View larger picture
Starting bid: US $33.99 

Your maximum bid:
US $ 



(Enter US $33.99 or more)


End time: Nov-17-08 20:00:00 PST (1 day 2 hours)
Shipping:
FREE shipping
US Postal Service Media MailTM
Service to United States
(more services)
Ships to: United States
Item location: Manitowoc, WI, United States
History: 0 bids


--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 3 Nov 2008 to 15 Nov 2008 (#2008-237)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 7:54 PM

The sentence may be easily diagrammed using the Reed-Kellog method; however,
I have no idea of how to do R-K on line.

Scott Catledge



-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:20:28 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Reed Kellogg
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For what it's worth, Getrude Stein, in "Poetry and Grammar," says this:

"I really do not know that anything has ever been more exciting than =
diagramming sentences. I suppose other things may be more exciting to =
others when they are at school but to me undoubtedly when I was at =
school the really completely exciting thing was diagramming sentences =
and that has been to me ever since the one thing that has been =
completely exciting and completely completing."=20

Brian=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of MC =
Johnstone
Sent: Sun 11/16/2008 9:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Reed Kellogg
=20
Brad Johnston wrote:

That's funny Brad. Sentence diagramming may be something like a surrey =
with the fringe on top, but it can still be a useful pedagogical and =
analytical tool; it isn't just a convenient amusement for children on =
sunny afternoons. That said, being forced to do it in the fifth grade =
cured me of any interest in grammar for about the next twenty years.

Mark



	=09
		  =09
	=09
	=09
	  =09
			 =20
		 =
=
=20
	  =09
			HIGHER LESSONS IN ENGLISH 1896 ANTIQUE BOOK REED KELLOG =
=20
	=09
	View larger picture =
 	=20
		  =09
		  =09
	Starting bid:	 US $33.99 	=20
	=09
	 =20
	=09
	Your maximum bid:
			US $=20
	=09
	=09

	Place Bid >
	=09
=09
		(Enter US $33.99 or more)	=20
=09
			=20

	=09
	________________________________

	=09
	End time:	 Nov-17-08 20:00:00 PST (1 day 2 hours)	=20
	Shipping:	 	FREE shipping
	US Postal Service Media MailTM
	Service to United States =
=20
	(more services) =
=20
	=09
	Ships to:	 United States	=20
	Item location:	 Manitowoc, WI, United States	=20
	History:	 0 bids =
 	=20
	________________________________

	=09
			=09

	--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Scott <[log in to unmask]>   =
wrote:
=09

		From: Scott <[log in to unmask]> =20
		Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 3 Nov 2008 to 15 Nov 2008 (#2008-237)
		To: [log in to unmask]
		Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 7:54 PM
	=09
	=09
		The sentence may be easily diagrammed using the Reed-Kellog method; =
however,
		I have no idea of how to do R-K on line.
	=09
		Scott Catledge
	=09
	=09
	=09
		-----Original Message-----
		From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
		To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
		     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
		and select "Join or leave the list"
	=09

	=09
		Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 08:08:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
In-Reply-To:  <20081116012914.BWTX1408.smtp21.m3.home.ne.jp@GATEWAY>
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John,

The only R&K problem I see is the "perhaps" that modifies the final 
adverbial prepositional phrase.  When a structure modifies the 
sentence as a whole, we put it on a separate line. But in this case 
it modifies a whole phrase that's within the sentence--not the 
sentence as a whole. I guess I'd attach it to "with" in the same way 
that I'd attach "extremely" to "wealthy"--but it wouldn't really be 
accurate.

R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the 
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the 
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.

Other than that "with" problem, John, you can do it, I'll betcha!

Martha


>Following is an article from yesterday's "The Japan Times". I gave 
>it to a couple of my adult classes here in Tokyo for discussion; for 
>my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but 
>interesting from the current political position:
>
>      "Amid dismal approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is 
>trying hard these days to shed his public image as an aloof, rich 
>politician from an extremely wealthy family, perhaps with an eye 
>toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an election".
>
>I try to discuss parts of interesting newspaper articles and I 
>encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their 
>spare time. Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving 
>finger and pursed lips and my objective is to try to encourage them 
>to recognize the 'chunks' of language from a mainly functional 
>perspective. Chunks of language in the form of noun groups 
>(including their adjectivals), adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic 
>Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This is how I went about 
>analyzing the newspaper text:
>
>
>     Amid dismal approval ratings,
>     prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial (how?),
>
>     Prime Minister Taro Aso
>     Noun group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional language)
>
>     is trying
>     predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in 
>Systemic Functional language)
>
>     hard these days
>     adverbials,(Circumstances)
>
>     [[to shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an 
>extremely wealthy family]]
>     Complement (is trying what?)   embedded clause functioning as a 
>Participant in Systemic Functional language.
>
>     perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time 
>comes to call an election
>     adverbial - Circumstance modifying the previous clause.
>
>
>I read aloud with the students and ask them relevant wh? questions 
>to elicit the 'chunks' of language. Comments please on this?  Has 
>anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the 
>forum?
>I like to see it diagrammed!
>
>  John
>    
>
>   
>
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web 
>interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and 
>select "Join or leave the list"
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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Re: Please analyse this - from John
Curran

John,





The only R&K problem I see is the "perhaps" that
modifies the final adverbial prepositional phrase.  When a
structure modifies the sentence as a whole, we put it on a separate
line. But in this case it modifies a whole phrase that's within the
sentence--not the sentence as a whole. I guess I'd attach it to
"with" in the same way that I'd attach "extremely"
to "wealthy"--but it wouldn't really be accurate.





R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of
showing the structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter
where in the sentence they appear, distinguishing form and
function.





Other than that "with" problem, John, you can do it,
I'll betcha!


 


Martha








Following is an article
from yesterday's "The Japan Times". I gave it to a couple of my
adult classes here in Tokyo for discussion; for my students it perhaps
was a long rather difficult sentence - but interesting from the
current political position:


 


     "Amid dismal
approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is trying hard these days to
shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely
wealthy family, perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when
the time comes to call an election".


 


I try to discuss parts of
interesting newspaper articles and I encourage the students to finish
the rest of the article in their spare time. Unfortunately most
Japanese students read with a moving finger and pursed lips and my
objective is to try to encourage them to recognize the 'chunks' of
language from a mainly functional perspective. Chunks of language in
the form of noun groups (including their adjectivals), adverbials
(Circumstances in Systemic Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This
is how I went about analyzing the newspaper text:


 


 


    Amid
dismal approval ratings,


   
prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial
(how?),


 


    Prime
Minister Taro Aso


    Noun
group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional
language)


 


    is
trying


  
 predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in
Systemic Functional language)


 


    hard
these days


   
adverbials,(Circumstances)


 


    [[to
shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely
wealthy family]]


   
Complement (is trying what?)   embedded clause functioning
as a Participant in Systemic Functional language.


 


   
perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to
call an election


   
adverbial - Circumstance modifying the previous
clause.


 


 


I read aloud with the
students and ask them relevant wh? questions to elicit the 'chunks'
of language. Comments please on this?  Has anybody the ability to
show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the
forum?


I like to see it
diagrammed!


 


 John


   


 


  


 


 


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--============_-985195151==_ma============--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:22:22 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.

>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>

R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20

****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed =
the same.

1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.

The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences.  =
In (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of =
please.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:24:54 -0700
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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This discussion sounds familiar (2005, 2006).  If R&K is liberalized, the s=
entences you distinguish may be diagrammed with their respective (deep) str=
uctures.  The authors themselves claimed that by diagramming you could get =
too involved with analysis and cautioned against it.=20=20

I have drawn up possible diagrams for these sentences and will post them on=
 my site, as an appendix to my commentary on R&K:=20=20

http://userpages.burgoyne.com/bdespain/grammar/rk_gram/r_k_toc1.htm

I'll put them in section 25 tonight sometime.  I hope this will help.=20=20

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.

>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>

R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20

****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed the=
 same.

1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.

The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences.  In=
 (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of please.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri

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at:
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 NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s=
) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized=
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:16:54 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
In-Reply-To:  <20081116012914.BWTX1408.smtp21.m3.home.ne.jp@GATEWAY>
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John,

   I won't repeat the comments from others, which I find highly
relevant. To me, it's important that Prime Minister Taro Aso is
grammatical subject and actor (person doing the trying), but is not
theme. In this case, "Amid dismal approval ratings" is the marked theme
stepping off point, something that wouldn't show up in an RK diagram
(or any analysis on constituency alone.) There are, in fact, three
intonation groups in the sentence. It might be interesting to look at
those as deliberate choices. At any rate, "amid dismal approval
ratings" colors everything that follows. 

   It's interesting that "is trying" is not qualified. It seems like
the writer is sure of the attempt, but not sure of the results. We also
have "perhaps" as a qualifier for the last group. So the writer is
unsure of results and unsure of some intentions. Ending with "election"
also presents his actions as approval oriented, a definite construal of
the process. 

   I would see "is trying to shed" as somewhat schematic.  It can
almost be looked at as the whole main verb, which raises the complex
noun phrase that follows "shed' perhaps up to the level of participant.
(Think of "is shedding", "may shred", "will shred" as alternatives.)
"His public image as an aloof, rich politician from a wealthy family"
jumps out at you. It is, of course, linked to low disapproval ratings
just by being juxtaposed.

   To me, everything depends on seeing alternatives and discussing the
nuances. The writer is construing the activity in a certain way, even
while trying to maintain an air of journalistic objectivity.
Implication? If he can't change his image, he's doomed.



Craig



John Curran wrote:


  
  
  
  
  
  

  
Following is an article
from yesterday’s “The
Japan Times”. I gave it to a couple of my adult classes here in Tokyo for
discussion; for
my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but
interesting
from the current political position:

  
 

  
     “Amid dismal
approval
ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is trying hard these days to shed his
public
image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely wealthy family,
perhaps
with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an
election”.

  
 

  
I try to discuss parts of
interesting newspaper articles and
I encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their
spare time.
Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving finger and
pursed lips
and my objective is to try to encourage them to recognize the
‘chunks’ of language from a mainly functional perspective. Chunks
of language in the form of noun groups (including their adjectivals),
adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic Functional Linguistic jargon) and
etc.
This is how I went about analyzing the newspaper text:

  
 

  
 

  
    Amid dismal approval
ratings,

  
    prepositional phrase,
Circumstance -
adverbial (how?), 

  
 

  
    Prime Minister Taro
Aso

  
    Noun group, subject,
Participant (in
Systemic Functional language)

  
 

  
    is trying

  
    predicate verb,
present continuous verb,
action Process (in Systemic Functional language)

  
 

  
    hard these days

  
   
adverbials,(Circumstances)

  
 

  
    [[to shed his public
image as an aloof,
rich politician from an extremely wealthy family]]

  
    Complement (is trying
what?)  
embedded clause functioning as a Participant in Systemic Functional
language.

  
 

  
    perhaps with an eye
toward appealing to
voters when the time comes to call an election

  
    adverbial –
Circumstance modifying
the previous clause.

  
 

  
 

  
I read aloud with the
students and ask them relevant wh?
questions to elicit the ‘chunks’ of language. Comments please on
this?  Has anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form
in
the forum?

  
I like to see it
diagrammed!

  
 

  
 John

  
    

  
 

  
   

  
 

  
 

  

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:19:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
In-Reply-To:  A<20081116012914.BWTX1408.smtp21.m3.home.ne.jp@GATEWAY>
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John -

=20

I suspect that with that sentence - and with many, many others in
English-language newspapers - your students are having trouble with
"chunking" and interpretation partly because they will tend to approach
idiomatic language literally. As a native English-speaker, I read "with
an eye to" almost as a single element, and so "eye" in that expression
doesn't have the same list of alternate choices as "eye" used normally
does.  One limitation of what we might call "plain vanilla RK" is that
it has no device for indicating the status of idioms as idioms, although
it isn't difficult to tweak it to do so.

=20

Bill Spruiell

Dept. of English

Central Michigan University=20


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John –



 



I suspect that with that sentence – and with many, =
many
others in English-language newspapers – your students are having =
trouble
with “chunking” and interpretation partly because they will =
tend to
approach idiomatic language literally. As a native English-speaker, I =
read “with
an eye to” almost as a single element, and so “eye” in =
that
expression doesn’t have the same list of alternate choices as =
“eye”
used normally does.  One limitation of what we might call =
“plain
vanilla RK” is that it has no device for indicating the status of =
idioms
as idioms, although it isn’t difficult to tweak it to do =
so.



 



Bill Spruiell



Dept. of English



Central Michigan University 








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------_=_NextPart_001_01C948FA.3E0715F8--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:26:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bob,

Since I have a stack of essay exams I'm supposed to be grading, I'll
quibble with you on this one. While the eager to / easy to alternation
is certainly amenable to analysis in terms of deep syntactic structure
and subject/object distinctions, one can also characterize the
alternation in terms of different semantic roles associated with the
elements (so in effect, it's more like an agent/patient distinction,
rather than a subject/object one). R&K's failure to show a difference
between these two, in that kind of analysis, isn't a failure to indicate
structural relations -- and no one's ever said R&K is that good at
indicating semantic roles, despite the way it cheats with indirect
objects.

Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.

>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>

R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20

****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed
the same.

1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.

The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences.
In (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of
please.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:32:59 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      "...and sometimes w"
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A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In
grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e,
i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which
occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych,
hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in
which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer
to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like
growth, flaw, and few?=20

________________________________

Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

=20


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A student asked me a question that I couldn’t
immediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that “the =
vowels
are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.” =
He was
fine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such =
as by, psych, hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are =
there any English
words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage =
merely
refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words =
like growth, flaw,
and few? =




________________________________
=



Richard Veit

Department of English

University of North =
Carolina Wilmington



 








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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:12:06 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: "...and sometimes w"
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Someone at a =
blog--http://www.thelookmachine.com/archives/2005/10/sometimes_y_and.html=
--asked the same question, and, for whatever it's worth,  they came up =
with two obscure words derived from Welsh:
=20
"'Cwm' -- a mountaineering term, pronounced like "room" but with a "k." =
It's basically a basin like edge of a valley, much like a cirque. ...And =
"Crwth" - which means, roughly, 'crowd.'"
=20
A commenter on the blog then mentioned the word "pwned," which =
apparently derives from a typo of "owned" (used to mean "badly =
defeated") in the "World of Warcraft" computer game.But I don't suppose =
this is what your student's grade school teachers had in mind.
=20
Brian

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Veit, =
Richard
Sent: Mon 11/17/2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: "...and sometimes w"



=20

=20

=20

A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In =
grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e, =
i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which =
occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, =
hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in =
which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer =
to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like =
growth, flaw, and few?=20

________________________________

Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

=20

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20


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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:56:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         David Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: "...and sometimes w"
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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It's hard to know what was meant, but take the sound [u]  or 'oo' as in 'hoot' and put it at the front of a word like  "why" transcribed as a kind of diphthong [  "oo" plus "y" ]. Crazy I know, but letter "w" can sometimes be viewed that way, and does show up that way in early childhood "invented spellings." -dh


Dr. David Hargreaves 
Professor, Linguistics 
Humanities Division 
Western Oregon University 
(503) 838-8764 
http://www.wou.edu/~hargred/

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It's hard to know what was meant, but take the sound [u]  or 'oo' as in 'hoot' and put it at the front of a word like  "why" transcribed as a kind of diphthong [  "oo" plus "y" ]. Crazy I know, but letter "w" can sometimes be viewed that way, and does show up that way in early childhood "invented spellings." -dh


Dr. David Hargreaves 
Professor, Linguistics 
Humanities Division 
Western Oregon University 
(503) 838-8764 
http://www.wou.edu/~hargred/


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----974b30df1d428aa6633a--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:39:10 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: "...and sometimes w"
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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One reason the grade schooler is taught this is so he doesn't misapply the =
rule about doubling the final consonant in one syllable words when adding -=
ed or -ing.=A0 For instance,  to , but not  to .=A0 I don't know any words a schoolboy might know with w as the vowel of =
a syllable.=20
=A0
Scott Woods

--- On Mon, 11/17/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "...and sometimes w"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 3:32 PM








A student asked me a question that I couldn=92t immediately answer. In grad=
e school he learned the adage that =93the vowels are the letters a, e, i, o=
, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.=94 He was fine with y, which occurs a=
s the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, hysteria, and sil=
ly. But what about w? Are there any English words in which w is the sole vo=
wel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer to the use of w in combi=
nation with other vowels, such as in words like growth, flaw, and few?=20
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=A0To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or le=
ave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A=0A=0A      

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One reason the grade schooler is taught =
this is so he doesn't misapply the rule about doubling the final consonant =
in one syllable words when adding -ed or -ing.  For instance, <hit&=
gt; to <hitting>, but not <flaw> to <flawwed>.  I do=
n't know any words a schoolboy might know with w as the vowel of a syllable=
. 


 


Scott Woods

--- On Mon, 11/17/08, Veit, Richard <veit@=
UNCW.EDU> wrote:


From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:=
 "...and sometimes w"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, Nove=
mber 17, 2008, 3:32 PM









A student asked me a question that I couldn=92t i=
mmediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that =93the vowels =
are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.=94 He was f=
ine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, hysteria, and =
silly. But what about w? Are =
there any English words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does=
 this adage merely refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, =
such as in words like growth, flaw, and few? 


_____________________=
___________


Richard Veit
Depar=
tment of English
University of N=
orth Carolina =
Wilmington

 To join or leave this LIS=
TSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohi=
o.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ 

=0A=0A      
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:43:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      nooze or noose?
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Lately I'm noticing some people pronouncing the word news as "noose"
rather than "nooze." For example, on Morning Edition, Steve Inskeep says
"This is NPR nooze" but co-host Renee Montagne says "NPR noose."=20

=20

Generally Americans use the z sound for the plural marker following a
vowel sound, as in days, fees, sighs, potatoes, and dues. So what's up
with "noose"? Does it mean that news has become a monolithic morpheme (
{news} rather than {new} + {PLURAL} ) for them and so escapes the rule
mandating the z-sound-after-vowels for the plural marker?

=20

Dick Veit=20

________________________________

Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

=20


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Lately I’m noticing some people pronouncing the =
word news as “noose” =
rather than “nooze.”
For example, on Morning =
Edition, Steve
Inskeep says “This is NPR nooze” but co-host Renee Montagne =
says “NPR
noose.” 



 



Generally Americans use the z sound for the plural =
marker following
a vowel sound, as in days, fees, =
sighs,
potatoes, and dues. So
what’s up with “noose”? Does it mean that news has become a monolithic =
morpheme ( {news}
rather than {new} + {PLURAL} ) for them and so escapes the rule =
mandating
the z-sound-after-vowels for the plural =
marker?



 



Dick Veit 



________________________________
=



Richard Veit

Department of English

University of North =
Carolina Wilmington



 








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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:53:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: "...and sometimes w"
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
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I suspect there's a historical basis to that "rule" as well - the "w"
began as a ligature between two sequential instances of "u" (hence
double-u).  Roman phonology - and orthography - treated what we'd think
of as v, w, and u as all one thing. A doubled u was (if I remember
correctly) sometimes used by English scribes, among others, to emphasize
that the indicated sound wasn't like a "regular" u. The letter thus
started out being explicitly connected to a vowel, and our K-12 grammar
rules don't usually change much once they're part of the institution.

=20

--- Bill Spruiell

=20

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 5:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: "...and sometimes w"

=20

A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In
grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e,
i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which
occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych,
hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in
which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer
to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like
growth, flaw, and few?=20

________________________________

Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

=20

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20

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I suspect there’s a historical basis to that =
“rule” as well –
the “w” began as a ligature between two sequential instances =
of “u” (hence
double-u).  Roman phonology – and orthography – treated =
what we’d think of as
v, w, and u as all one thing. A doubled u was (if I remember correctly)
sometimes used by English scribes, among others, to emphasize that the
indicated sound wasn’t like a “regular” u. The letter =
thus started out being
explicitly connected to a vowel, and our K-12 grammar rules don’t =
usually
change much once they’re part of the =
institution.



 



--- Bill Spruiell



 









From:=
 Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On =
Behalf Of Veit,
Richard

Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 5:33 PM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: "...and sometimes w"









 



A
student asked me a question that I couldn’t immediately answer. In =
grade school
he learned the adage that “the vowels are the letters a, e, i, o, =
u, and
sometimes y and sometimes w.” He was fine with y, which occurs as =
the lone
vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, hysteria, and =
silly.
But what about w? Are there any English words in which w is the sole =
vowel in a
syllable? Or does this adage merely refer to the use of w in combination =
with
other vowels, such as in words like growth, flaw, and =
few?




__=
______________________________



Ri=
chard
Veit

Department of English

University =
of North Carolina =
Wilmington=




 



To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =
select
"Join or leave the list" 



Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ 








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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:54:11 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: nooze or noose?
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
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Dick,

=20

Is Montagne from Chicago? There are some dialects that regularly do
that. - Bill Spruiell

=20

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:44 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: nooze or noose?

=20

Lately I'm noticing some people pronouncing the word news as "noose"
rather than "nooze." For example, on Morning Edition, Steve Inskeep says
"This is NPR nooze" but co-host Renee Montagne says "NPR noose."=20

=20

Generally Americans use the z sound for the plural marker following a
vowel sound, as in days, fees, sighs, potatoes, and dues. So what's up
with "noose"? Does it mean that news has become a monolithic morpheme (
{news} rather than {new} + {PLURAL} ) for them and so escapes the rule
mandating the z-sound-after-vowels for the plural marker?

=20

Dick Veit=20

________________________________

Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

=20

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20

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Dick,



 



Is Montagne from Chicago? There are some dialects that =
regularly
do that. – Bill Spruiell



 









From:=
 Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On =
Behalf Of Veit,
Richard

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:44 AM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: nooze or noose?









 



Lately
I’m noticing some people pronouncing the word news as =
“noose” rather
than “nooze.” For example, on Morning Edition, Steve =
Inskeep says “This
is NPR nooze” but co-host Renee Montagne says “NPR =
noose.” 



 



Generally
Americans use the z sound for the plural marker following a vowel sound, =
as in days,
fees, sighs, potatoes, and dues. So what’s up with =
“noose”? Does it
mean that news has become a monolithic morpheme ( {news} =
rather
than {new} + {PLURAL} ) for them and so escapes the rule mandating =
the
z-sound-after-vowels for the plural marker?



 



Dick
Veit 



__=
______________________________



Ri=
chard
Veit

Department of English

University =
of North Carolina =
Wilmington=




 



To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =
select
"Join or leave the list" 



Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ 








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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:16:28 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
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              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Norman Mailer
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Of 300+ ATEGians,=A0some few=A0will be interested to know=A0that in the fir=
st 21 pages of "The Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Puli=
tzer in 1980, the word 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correct=
ly as the past tense of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in t=
he subjunctive. The rest (54) are in error.
=A0
(Don't holler at me. Count 'em for yourself :)
=A0
.brad.19nov08.=0A=0A=0A      

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Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be interested to know that in the first 21 pages of "The Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer in 1980, the word 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as the past tense of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in the subjunctive. The rest (54) are in error.


 


(Don't holler at me. Count 'em for yourself :)


 


.brad.19nov08.



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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:01:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2008 to 17 Nov 2008 (#2008-239)
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I would attach 'with...' to 'perhaps', not vice versa.

I would also diagram 'John is easy to please' to show 'to please' as the
subject.

Scott Catledge


-----Original Message-----
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Subject: ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2008 to 17 Nov 2008 (#2008-239)

There are 10 messages totalling 1232 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Please analyse this - from John Curran (6)
  2. "...and sometimes w" (4)

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Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 08:08:15 -0500
From:    Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

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John,

The only R&K problem I see is the "perhaps" that modifies the final 
adverbial prepositional phrase.  When a structure modifies the 
sentence as a whole, we put it on a separate line. But in this case 
it modifies a whole phrase that's within the sentence--not the 
sentence as a whole. I guess I'd attach it to "with" in the same way 
that I'd attach "extremely" to "wealthy"--but it wouldn't really be 
accurate.

R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the 
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the 
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.

Other than that "with" problem, John, you can do it, I'll betcha!

Martha


>Following is an article from yesterday's "The Japan Times". I gave 
>it to a couple of my adult classes here in Tokyo for discussion; for 
>my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but 
>interesting from the current political position:
>
>      "Amid dismal approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is 
>trying hard these days to shed his public image as an aloof, rich 
>politician from an extremely wealthy family, perhaps with an eye 
>toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an election".
>
>I try to discuss parts of interesting newspaper articles and I 
>encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their 
>spare time. Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving 
>finger and pursed lips and my objective is to try to encourage them 
>to recognize the 'chunks' of language from a mainly functional 
>perspective. Chunks of language in the form of noun groups 
>(including their adjectivals), adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic 
>Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This is how I went about 
>analyzing the newspaper text:
>
>
>     Amid dismal approval ratings,
>     prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial (how?),
>
>     Prime Minister Taro Aso
>     Noun group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional language)
>
>     is trying
>     predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in 
>Systemic Functional language)
>
>     hard these days
>     adverbials,(Circumstances)
>
>     [[to shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an 
>extremely wealthy family]]
>     Complement (is trying what?)   embedded clause functioning as a 
>Participant in Systemic Functional language.
>
>     perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time 
>comes to call an election
>     adverbial - Circumstance modifying the previous clause.
>
>
>I read aloud with the students and ask them relevant wh? questions 
>to elicit the 'chunks' of language. Comments please on this?  Has 
>anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the 
>forum?
>I like to see it diagrammed!
>
>  John
>    
>
>   
>
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web 
>interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and 
>select "Join or leave the list"
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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Re: Please analyse this - from John
Curran

John,





The only R&K problem I see is the "perhaps" that
modifies the final adverbial prepositional phrase.  When a
structure modifies the sentence as a whole, we put it on a separate
line. But in this case it modifies a whole phrase that's within the
sentence--not the sentence as a whole. I guess I'd attach it to
"with" in the same way that I'd attach "extremely"
to "wealthy"--but it wouldn't really be accurate.





R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of
showing the structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter
where in the sentence they appear, distinguishing form and
function.





Other than that "with" problem, John, you can do it,
I'll betcha!


 


Martha








Following is an article
from yesterday's "The Japan Times". I gave it to a couple of my
adult classes here in Tokyo for discussion; for my students it perhaps
was a long rather difficult sentence - but interesting from the
current political position:


 


     "Amid dismal
approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is trying hard these days to
shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely
wealthy family, perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when
the time comes to call an election".


 


I try to discuss parts of
interesting newspaper articles and I encourage the students to finish
the rest of the article in their spare time. Unfortunately most
Japanese students read with a moving finger and pursed lips and my
objective is to try to encourage them to recognize the 'chunks' of
language from a mainly functional perspective. Chunks of language in
the form of noun groups (including their adjectivals), adverbials
(Circumstances in Systemic Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This
is how I went about analyzing the newspaper text:


 


 


    Amid
dismal approval ratings,


   
prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial
(how?),


 


    Prime
Minister Taro Aso


    Noun
group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional
language)


 


    is
trying


  
 predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in
Systemic Functional language)


 


    hard
these days


   
adverbials,(Circumstances)


 


    [[to
shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely
wealthy family]]


   
Complement (is trying what?)   embedded clause functioning
as a Participant in Systemic Functional language.


 


   
perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to
call an election


   
adverbial - Circumstance modifying the previous
clause.


 


 


I read aloud with the
students and ask them relevant wh? questions to elicit the 'chunks'
of language. Comments please on this?  Has anybody the ability to
show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the
forum?


I like to see it
diagrammed!


 


 John


   


 


  


 


 


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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:22:22 -0600
From:    Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.

>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>

R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20

****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed =
the same.

1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.

The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences.  =
In (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of =
please.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri

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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:24:54 -0700
From:    Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

This discussion sounds familiar (2005, 2006).  If R&K is liberalized, the s=
entences you distinguish may be diagrammed with their respective (deep) str=
uctures.  The authors themselves claimed that by diagramming you could get =
too involved with analysis and cautioned against it.=20=20

I have drawn up possible diagrams for these sentences and will post them on=
 my site, as an appendix to my commentary on R&K:=20=20

http://userpages.burgoyne.com/bdespain/grammar/rk_gram/r_k_toc1.htm

I'll put them in section 25 tonight sometime.  I hope this will help.=20=20

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.

>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>

R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20

****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed the=
 same.

1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.

The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences.  In=
 (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of please.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri

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 NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s=
) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized=
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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:16:54 -0500
From:    Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran




  


John,

   I won't repeat the comments from others, which I find highly
relevant. To me, it's important that Prime Minister Taro Aso is
grammatical subject and actor (person doing the trying), but is not
theme. In this case, "Amid dismal approval ratings" is the marked theme
stepping off point, something that wouldn't show up in an RK diagram
(or any analysis on constituency alone.) There are, in fact, three
intonation groups in the sentence. It might be interesting to look at
those as deliberate choices. At any rate, "amid dismal approval
ratings" colors everything that follows. 

   It's interesting that "is trying" is not qualified. It seems
like
the writer is sure of the attempt, but not sure of the results. We also
have "perhaps" as a qualifier for the last group. So the writer is
unsure of results and unsure of some intentions. Ending with "election"
also presents his actions as approval oriented, a definite construal of
the process. 

   I would see "is trying to shed" as somewhat schematic.  It
can
almost be looked at as the whole main verb, which raises the complex
noun phrase that follows "shed' perhaps up to the level of participant.
(Think of "is shedding", "may shred", "will shred" as alternatives.)
"His public image as an aloof, rich politician from a wealthy family"
jumps out at you. It is, of course, linked to low disapproval ratings
just by being juxtaposed.

   To me, everything depends on seeing alternatives and discussing
the
nuances. The writer is construing the activity in a certain way, even
while trying to maintain an air of journalistic objectivity.
Implication? If he can't change his image, he's doomed.



Craig



John Curran wrote:


  
  
  
  
  
  

  
Following is an article
from yesterday’s “The
Japan Times”. I gave it to a couple of my adult classes here in
Tokyo for
discussion; for
my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but
interesting
from the current political position:

  
 

  
   
 “Amid dismal
approval
ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is trying hard these days to shed his
public
image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely wealthy family,
perhaps
with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an
election”.

  
 

  
I try to discuss parts of
interesting newspaper articles and
I encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their
spare time.
Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving finger and
pursed lips
and my objective is to try to encourage them to recognize the
‘chunks’ of language from a mainly functional perspective.
Chunks
of language in the form of noun groups (including their adjectivals),
adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic Functional Linguistic jargon) and
etc.
This is how I went about analyzing the newspaper
text:

  
 

  
 

  
    Amid dismal
approval
ratings,

  
   
prepositional phrase,
Circumstance -
adverbial (how?), 

  
 

  
    Prime
Minister Taro
Aso

  
    Noun group,
subject,
Participant (in
Systemic Functional language)

  
 

  
    is
trying

  
    predicate
verb,
present continuous verb,
action Process (in Systemic Functional
language)

  
 

  
    hard these
days

  
   
adverbials,(Circumstances)

  
 

  
    [[to shed
his public
image as an aloof,
rich politician from an extremely wealthy
family]]

  
    Complement
(is trying
what?)  
embedded clause functioning as a Participant in Systemic Functional
language.

  
 

  
    perhaps
with an eye
toward appealing to
voters when the time comes to call an election

  
    adverbial
–
Circumstance modifying
the previous clause.

  
 

  
 

  
I read aloud with the
students and ask them relevant wh?
questions to elicit the ‘chunks’ of language. Comments please on
this?  Has anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form
in
the forum?

  
I like to see it
diagrammed!

  
 

  
 John

  
   


  
 

  
  


  
 

  
 

  

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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:19:57 -0500
From:    "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

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John -

=20

I suspect that with that sentence - and with many, many others in
English-language newspapers - your students are having trouble with
"chunking" and interpretation partly because they will tend to approach
idiomatic language literally. As a native English-speaker, I read "with
an eye to" almost as a single element, and so "eye" in that expression
doesn't have the same list of alternate choices as "eye" used normally
does.  One limitation of what we might call "plain vanilla RK" is that
it has no device for indicating the status of idioms as idioms, although
it isn't difficult to tweak it to do so.

=20

Bill Spruiell

Dept. of English

Central Michigan University=20


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John –



 



I suspect that with that sentence – and with many, =
many
others in English-language newspapers – your students are having =
trouble
with “chunking” and interpretation partly because they will =
tend to
approach idiomatic language literally. As a native English-speaker, I =
read “with
an eye to” almost as a single element, and so “eye” in =
that
expression doesn’t have the same list of alternate choices as =
“eye”
used normally does.  One limitation of what we might call =
“plain
vanilla RK” is that it has no device for indicating the status of =
idioms
as idioms, although it isn’t difficult to tweak it to do =
so.



 



Bill Spruiell



Dept. of English



Central Michigan University 








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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:26:02 -0500
From:    "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

Bob,

Since I have a stack of essay exams I'm supposed to be grading, I'll
quibble with you on this one. While the eager to / easy to alternation
is certainly amenable to analysis in terms of deep syntactic structure
and subject/object distinctions, one can also characterize the
alternation in terms of different semantic roles associated with the
elements (so in effect, it's more like an agent/patient distinction,
rather than a subject/object one). R&K's failure to show a difference
between these two, in that kind of analysis, isn't a failure to indicate
structural relations -- and no one's ever said R&K is that good at
indicating semantic roles, despite the way it cheats with indirect
objects.

Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran

I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.

>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>

R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20

****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed
the same.

1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.

The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences.
In (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of
please.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri

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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:32:59 -0500
From:    "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "...and sometimes w"

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A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In
grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e,
i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which
occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych,
hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in
which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer
to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like
growth, flaw, and few?=20

________________________________

Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

=20


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A student asked me a question that I couldn’t
immediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that “the =
vowels
are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.” =
He was
fine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such =
as by, psych, hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are =
there any English
words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage =
merely
refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words =
like growth, flaw,
and few? =




________________________________
=



Richard Veit

Department of English

University of North =
Carolina Wilmington



 








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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:12:06 -0500
From:    "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w"

Someone at a =
blog--http://www.thelookmachine.com/archives/2005/10/sometimes_y_and.html=
--asked the same question, and, for whatever it's worth,  they came up =
with two obscure words derived from Welsh:
=20
"'Cwm' -- a mountaineering term, pronounced like "room" but with a "k." =
It's basically a basin like edge of a valley, much like a cirque. ...And =
"Crwth" - which means, roughly, 'crowd.'"
=20
A commenter on the blog then mentioned the word "pwned," which =
apparently derives from a typo of "owned" (used to mean "badly =
defeated") in the "World of Warcraft" computer game.But I don't suppose =
this is what your student's grade school teachers had in mind.
=20
Brian

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Veit, =
Richard
Sent: Mon 11/17/2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: "...and sometimes w"



=20

=20

=20

A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In =
grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e, =
i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which =
occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, =
hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in =
which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer =
to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like =
growth, flaw, and few?=20

________________________________

Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

=20

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20


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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:56:15 -0800
From:    David Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w"

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It's hard to know what was meant, but take the sound [u]  or 'oo' as in
'hoot' and put it at the front of a word like  "why" transcribed as a kind
of diphthong [  "oo" plus "y" ]. Crazy I know, but letter "w" can sometimes
be viewed that way, and does show up that way in early childhood "invented
spellings." -dh


Dr. David Hargreaves 
Professor, Linguistics 
Humanities Division 
Western Oregon University 
(503) 838-8764 
http://www.wou.edu/~hargred/

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It's hard to know what was meant, but take the sound [u]  or 'oo'
as in 'hoot' and put it at the front of a word like  "why" transcribed
as a kind of diphthong [  "oo" plus "y" ]. Crazy I know, but
letter "w" can sometimes be viewed that way, and does show up that way in
early childhood "invented spellings." -dh


Dr. David
Hargreaves 
Professor, Linguistics 
Humanities Division

Western Oregon University 
(503) 838-8764

http://www.wou.edu/~hargred/


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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:39:10 -0800
From:    Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w"

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One reason the grade schooler is taught this is so he doesn't misapply the =
rule about doubling the final consonant in one syllable words when adding -=
ed or -ing.=A0 For instance,  to , but not  to .=A0 I don't know any words a schoolboy might know with w as the vowel of =
a syllable.=20
=A0
Scott Woods

--- On Mon, 11/17/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "...and sometimes w"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 3:32 PM








A student asked me a question that I couldn=92t immediately answer. In grad=
e school he learned the adage that =93the vowels are the letters a, e, i, o=
, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.=94 He was fine with y, which occurs a=
s the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, hysteria, and sil=
ly. But what about w? Are there any English words in which w is the sole vo=
wel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer to the use of w in combi=
nation with other vowels, such as in words like growth, flaw, and few?=20
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=A0To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or le=
ave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A=0A=0A      

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at:
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--0-1449302740-1226968750=:98672
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


One reason the grade schooler is taught =
this is so he doesn't misapply the rule about doubling the final consonant =
in one syllable words when adding -ed or -ing.  For instance, <hit&=
gt; to <hitting>, but not <flaw> to <flawwed>.  I do=
n't know any words a schoolboy might know with w as the vowel of a syllable=
. 


 


Scott Woods

--- On Mon, 11/17/08, Veit, Richard <veit@=
UNCW.EDU> wrote:


From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:=
 "...and sometimes w"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, Nove=
mber 17, 2008, 3:32 PM









A student asked me a question that I couldn=92t i=
mmediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that =93the vowels =
are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.=94 He was f=
ine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, hysteria, and =
silly. But what about w? Are =
there any English words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does=
 this adage merely refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, =
such as in words like growth, flaw, and few? 


_____________________=
___________


Richard Veit
Depar=
tment of English
University of N=
orth Carolina =
Wilmington

 To join or leave this LIS=
TSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohi=
o.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ 

=0A=0A      
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------------------------------

End of ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2008 to 17 Nov 2008 (#2008-239)
***********************************************************

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:41:34 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Norman Mailer
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF2F8984DFSEMAILfacult_"
MIME-Version: 1.0

--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF2F8984DFSEMAILfacult_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brad,

How are they in "error"?

Marshall

________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 4:16 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Norman Mailer

Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be interested to know that in the first 21 =
pages of "The Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer i=
n 1980, the word 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as =
the past tense of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in the sub=
junctive. The rest (54) are in error.

(Don't holler at me. Count 'em for yourself :)

.brad.19nov08.


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--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF2F8984DFSEMAILfacult_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


















Brad,



 



How are they in “error”?



 



Marshall



 















From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Be=
half
Of Brad Johnston

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, =
2008
4:16 PM

To: [log in to unmask]


Subject: Norman Mailer






 




 

  
  

  

  
Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be
  interested to know that in the first 21 pages of "The Execution=
er's
  Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer in 1980, the word 'had=
'
  appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as the past tense of the
  verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in the subjunctive. =
The
  rest (54) are in error.

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
(Don't holler at me. Count 'em for yourself :)<=
/p>
  

  

  
 

  

  

  
.brad.19nov08.

  

  

  		
 







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at:
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the list" 



Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ 








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--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF2F8984DFSEMAILfacult_--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:11:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: nooze or noose?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

Several thoughts on nooze/noose. =20

1.  I've noticed this pronunciation in a colleague of mine from Connecticut=
.  In her case it's particularly evident with the -ese suffix designating l=
anguages, like Chinese and Japanese.  It's more widespread than that but st=
ill unusual enough to be noticed.

2.  There is a widely believed and perpetuated view of English consonant ph=
onetics that is simply wrong.  This is the notion that the English obstruen=
ts /ptkCfTsS/ are voiceless and /bdgjvDzZ/ are voiceless, and this is the f=
undamental difference between the two sets.  In fact, it has been demonstra=
ted both phonetically and phonologically, in numerous studies, that the for=
mer are fortis, having a strong articulation, and the latter lenis, having =
a weaker articulation.  The lenis obstruents will voice when between voiced=
 sounds, like vowels, nasals, and liquids, but elsewhere they are voiceless=
.

3.  The difference between "sieze" and "cease" is twofold:  "sieze" has a l=
onger vowel, and the final consonants are lenis and fortis respectively.

What's happening in the nooze/noose case may not be that the consonant is d=
evoicing, since it's already voiceless in both cases but rather that the vo=
wel has shortened before a lenis /z/ so that that important clue to a final=
 lenis is lost and we perceive the final lenis as a fortis /s/.  It may eve=
n become an /s/, although in my colleague's speech I don't think it does.

There is also a morphological phenomenon involved that Bill astutely points=
 out his analysis, suggesting, as he does, that the etymologically suffixal=
 -s of "news" ceases to be a suffix and is reanalyzed as part of the root. =
 However, I have a paper coming out in Word next year, written with a coupl=
e of grad students, arguing that the -s on "news," "dependence," "linguisti=
cs," and "spokesman," arose in the late 16th c. or early 17th from several =
different sources that came together as a new suffix creating nominalized f=
orms mostly from adjectives but also from other classes.  That new suffix -=
s behaves phonologically just like all the other suffixes -s in English (at=
 least four of them).  This reanalysis of the final -s of "news" doesn't re=
ally bear on Bill's interesting suggestion that the word gets reanalyzed in=
 some varieties of modern English, but the fact that other speakers do this=
 with other suffixes as well suggests that there may be a sound change taki=
ng place in English neutralizing the consonant strength (fortis/lenis) cont=
rast before or within some suffixes.  This deserves further study.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 18, 2008 12:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: nooze or noose?

Dick,

Is Montagne from Chicago? There are some dialects that regularly do that. =
=96 Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:44 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: nooze or noose?

Lately I=92m noticing some people pronouncing the word news as =93noose=94 =
rather than =93nooze.=94 For example, on Morning Edition, Steve Inskeep say=
s =93This is NPR nooze=94 but co-host Renee Montagne says =93NPR noose.=94

Generally Americans use the z sound for the plural marker following a vowel=
 sound, as in days, fees, sighs, potatoes, and dues. So what=92s up with =
=93noose=94? Does it mean that news has become a monolithic morpheme ( {new=
s} rather than {new} + {PLURAL} ) for them and so escapes the rule mandatin=
g the z-sound-after-vowels for the plural marker?

Dick Veit
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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 the list"

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:12:34 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: nooze or noose?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

Sorry, Dick, I attributed your post to Bill Spruell by mistake.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 18, 2008 10:43 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: nooze or noose?

Lately I=92m noticing some people pronouncing the word news as =93noose=94 =
rather than =93nooze.=94 For example, on Morning Edition, Steve Inskeep say=
s =93This is NPR nooze=94 but co-host Renee Montagne says =93NPR noose.=94

Generally Americans use the z sound for the plural marker following a vowel=
 sound, as in days, fees, sighs, potatoes, and dues. So what=92s up with =
=93noose=94? Does it mean that news has become a monolithic morpheme ( {new=
s} rather than {new} + {PLURAL} ) for them and so escapes the rule mandatin=
g the z-sound-after-vowels for the plural marker?

Dick Veit
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:29:43 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: nooze or noose?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_Part_44479_17624476.1227072583131"

------=_Part_44479_17624476.1227072583131
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

Herb,

Thanks for your interesting (as always) analysis. As a young linguist
"raised" on the voiced/voiceless distinction, I've been struggling lately
with the fortis/lenis distinction. Can you suggest an introductory source
that I can use to brush up on this? Also, do you even consider voicing when
describing a sound in isolation or do you just consider it a feature of
spoken language that occurs due to influence from neighboring sounds? For
example, if you were describing a phoneme in the abstract, would you
classify it by place of articulation, manner of articulation, and
fortis/lenis (is this strength? or sonority?).

Thanks for any info you can provide!

John Alexander

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 7:11 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>wrote=
:

> Several thoughts on nooze/noose.
>
> 1.  I've noticed this pronunciation in a colleague of mine from
> Connecticut.  In her case it's particularly evident with the -ese suffix
> designating languages, like Chinese and Japanese.  It's more widespread t=
han
> that but still unusual enough to be noticed.
>
> 2.  There is a widely believed and perpetuated view of English consonant
> phonetics that is simply wrong.  This is the notion that the English
> obstruents /ptkCfTsS/ are voiceless and /bdgjvDzZ/ are voiceless, and thi=
s
> is the fundamental difference between the two sets.  In fact, it has been
> demonstrated both phonetically and phonologically, in numerous studies, t=
hat
> the former are fortis, having a strong articulation, and the latter lenis=
,
> having a weaker articulation.  The lenis obstruents will voice when betwe=
en
> voiced sounds, like vowels, nasals, and liquids, but elsewhere they are
> voiceless.
>
> 3.  The difference between "sieze" and "cease" is twofold:  "sieze" has a
> longer vowel, and the final consonants are lenis and fortis respectively.
>
> What's happening in the nooze/noose case may not be that the consonant is
> devoicing, since it's already voiceless in both cases but rather that the
> vowel has shortened before a lenis /z/ so that that important clue to a
> final lenis is lost and we perceive the final lenis as a fortis /s/.  It =
may
> even become an /s/, although in my colleague's speech I don't think it do=
es.
>
> There is also a morphological phenomenon involved that Bill astutely poin=
ts
> out his analysis, suggesting, as he does, that the etymologically suffixa=
l
> -s of "news" ceases to be a suffix and is reanalyzed as part of the root.
>  However, I have a paper coming out in Word next year, written with a cou=
ple
> of grad students, arguing that the -s on "news," "dependence,"
> "linguistics," and "spokesman," arose in the late 16th c. or early 17th f=
rom
> several different sources that came together as a new suffix creating
> nominalized forms mostly from adjectives but also from other classes.  Th=
at
> new suffix -s behaves phonologically just like all the other suffixes -s =
in
> English (at least four of them).  This reanalysis of the final -s of "new=
s"
> doesn't really bear on Bill's interesting suggestion that the word gets
> reanalyzed in some varieties of modern English, but the fact that other
> speakers do this with other suffixes as well suggests that there may be a
> sound change taking place in English neutralizing the consonant strength
> (fortis/lenis) contrast before or within some suffixes.  This deserves
> further study.
>
> Herb
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN  47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C [
> [log in to unmask]]
> Sent: November 18, 2008 12:54 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: nooze or noose?
>
> Dick,
>
> Is Montagne from Chicago? There are some dialects that regularly do that.=
 =96
> Bill Spruiell
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:44 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: nooze or noose?
>
> Lately I'm noticing some people pronouncing the word news as "noose" rath=
er
> than "nooze." For example, on Morning Edition, Steve Inskeep says "This i=
s
> NPR nooze" but co-host Renee Montagne says "NPR noose."
>
> Generally Americans use the z sound for the plural marker following a vow=
el
> sound, as in days, fees, sighs, potatoes, and dues. So what's up with
> "noose"? Does it mean that news has become a monolithic morpheme ( {news}
> rather than {new} + {PLURAL} ) for them and so escapes the rule mandating
> the z-sound-after-vowels for the plural marker?
>
> Dick Veit
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline


Herb,


 


Thanks for your interesting (as always) analysis. As a young linguist =
"raised" on the voiced/voiceless distinction, I've been strug=
gling lately with the fortis/lenis distinction. Can you suggest an introduc=
tory source that I can use to brush up on this? Also, do you even consider =
voicing when describing a sound in isolation or do you just consider it a f=
eature of spoken language that occurs due to influence from neighboring sou=
nds? For example, if you were describing a phoneme in the abstract, would y=
ou classify it by place of articulation, manner of articulation, and fortis=
/lenis (is this strength? or sonority?). 



 


Thanks for any info you can provide!


 


John Alexander



On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 7:11 PM, STAHLKE, HERBER=
T F <[log in to unmask]
edu> wrote:


Several thoughts on nooze/noose.=


1.  I've noticed this pronunciation in a colleague of mine=
 from Connecticut.  In her case it's particularly evident with the=
 -ese suffix designating languages, like Chinese and Japanese.  It'=
;s more widespread than that but still unusual enough to be noticed.


2.  There is a widely believed and perpetuated view of English con=
sonant phonetics that is simply wrong.  This is the notion that the En=
glish obstruents /ptkCfTsS/ are voiceless and /bdgjvDzZ/ are voiceless, and=
 this is the fundamental difference between the two sets.  In fact, it=
 has been demonstrated both phonetically and phonologically, in numerous st=
udies, that the former are fortis, having a strong articulation, and the la=
tter lenis, having a weaker articulation.  The lenis obstruents will v=
oice when between voiced sounds, like vowels, nasals, and liquids, but else=
where they are voiceless.


3.  The difference between "sieze" and "cease"=
 is twofold:  "sieze" has a longer vowel, and the final cons=
onants are lenis and fortis respectively.

What's happening in th=
e nooze/noose case may not be that the consonant is devoicing, since it'=
;s already voiceless in both cases but rather that the vowel has shortened =
before a lenis /z/ so that that important clue to a final lenis is lost and=
 we perceive the final lenis as a fortis /s/.  It may even become an /=
s/, although in my colleague's speech I don't think it does.


There is also a morphological phenomenon involved that Bill astutely po=
ints out his analysis, suggesting, as he does, that the etymologically suff=
ixal -s of "news" ceases to be a suffix and is reanalyzed as part=
 of the root.  However, I have a paper coming out in Word next year, w=
ritten with a couple of grad students, arguing that the -s on "news,&q=
uot; "dependence," "linguistics," and "spokesman,&=
quot; arose in the late 16th c. or early 17th from several different source=
s that came together as a new suffix creating nominalized forms mostly from=
 adjectives but also from other classes.  That new suffix -s behaves p=
honologically just like all the other suffixes -s in English (at least four=
 of them).  This reanalysis of the final -s of "news" doesn&=
#39;t really bear on Bill's interesting suggestion that the word gets r=
eanalyzed in some varieties of modern English, but the fact that other spea=
kers do this with other suffixes as well suggests that there may be a sound=
 change taking place in English neutralizing the consonant strength (fortis=
/lenis) contrast before or within some suffixes.  This deserves furthe=
r study.


Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of Engli=
sh
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
_________________________________=
_______

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:44:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      New English grammar
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

Is anyone familiar with The Teachers Grammar of English: a Coursebook and R=
eference Guide, by Ron Cowan, from Cambridge University Press?  I just got =
an announcement for it, and it looks promising.  A couple of chapters are a=
vailable for download at http://www.cambridge.org/us/esl/email/Teachers_Gra=
mmar.html.

Herb=

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:00:55 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Teresa Lintner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: New English grammar
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Herb,

I was one of the editors who worked on The Teacher's Grammar of English. It
was a very intense project, and I learned a lot from the author. I would be
very happy to hear feedback, positive or negative, about it  from anyone on
this list. I generally only lurk and take notes on what I have learned(!),
but this project consumed my life for about a year and a half, so I'm quite
interested in its "life" now that it's out there in the real world.

Terre

Teresa Lintner
Senior Development Editor
Cambridge University Press
32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013-2473
Telephone: 212 337-5070
Fax: 212 645-5960
Email: [log in to unmask]


                                                                           
             "STAHLKE, HERBERT                                             
             F"                                                            
             <[log in to unmask]                                          To 
             >                         [log in to unmask]            
             Sent by: Assembly                                          cc 
             for the Teaching                                              
             of English                                            Subject 
             Grammar                   New English grammar                 
             <[log in to unmask]                                             
             OHIO.EDU>                                                     
                                                                           
                                                                           
             11/19/2008 01:44                                              
             PM                                                            
                                                                           
                                                                           
             Please respond to                                             
             Assembly for the                                              
                Teaching of                                                
              English Grammar                                              
             <[log in to unmask]                                             
                 OHIO.EDU>                                                 
                                                                           
                                                                           




Is anyone familiar with The Teachers Grammar of English: a Coursebook and
Reference Guide, by Ron Cowan, from Cambridge University Press?  I just got
an announcement for it, and it looks promising.  A couple of chapters are
available for download at
http://www.cambridge.org/us/esl/email/Teachers_Grammar.html.

Herb
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:18:25 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Norman Mailer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1526111724-1227140305=:62622"

--0-1526111724-1227140305=:62622
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Marshall,
=A0
I have wrecked my brain but=A0have not yet thought of a valid reason why 'h=
ad' should appear other than in the three circumstances=A0mentioned. Have y=
ou a suggestion?
=A0
.brad.20nov08.
=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~

On Tue, 11/18/08, Myers, Marshall <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
Brad,=20
=A0=20
How are they in =93error=94?=20
=A0=20
Marshall=20
=A0=20


~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Norman Mailer
=A0=20







Of 300+ ATEGians,=A0some few=A0will be interested to know=A0that in the fir=
st 21 pages of "The Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Puli=
tzer in 1980, the word 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correct=
ly as the past tense of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in t=
he subjunctive. The rest (54) are in error.

=A0


(Don't holler at me. Count 'em for yourself :)

=A0

.brad.18nov08=0A=0A=0A      

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--0-1526111724-1227140305=:62622
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




Marshall,


 


I have wrecked my brain but have not yet thought of a valid reaso=
n why 'had' should appear other than in the three circumstances mentio=
ned. Have you a suggestion?


 


.brad.20nov08.


 


~~~~~~~=
~~~~

On Tue, 11/18/08, Myers, Marshall <Mar=
[log in to unmask]> wrote:


 


Brad,=
=20

 =
=20

How are they in =93er=
ror=94?=20

 =
=20

Marshall=20

 =
=20





~~~~~~~~~~~


From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar


On Behalf =
Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Norman Mailer

<=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> =20













<=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Of 300+ ATEGians, some f=
ew will be interested to know that in the first 21 pages of "The =
Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer in 1980, the wo=
rd 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as the past tense=
 of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in the subjunctive. The =
rest (54) are in error.




<=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 






<=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">(Don't holler at me. Count 'e=
m for yourself :)




<=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 




<=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">.brad.18nov08
=0A=0A      
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--0-1526111724-1227140305=:62622--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:38:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: New English grammar
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

Terre,

I was planning to order a copy.  Although I'm retired now, I'm still intere=
sted in the problems of preparing language arts and composition teachers to=
 work intelligently and creatively with grammar.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 19, 2008 6:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: New English grammar

Herb,

I was one of the editors who worked on The Teacher's Grammar of English. It
was a very intense project, and I learned a lot from the author. I would be
very happy to hear feedback, positive or negative, about it  from anyone on
this list. I generally only lurk and take notes on what I have learned(!),
but this project consumed my life for about a year and a half, so I'm quite
interested in its "life" now that it's out there in the real world.

Terre

Teresa Lintner
Senior Development Editor
Cambridge University Press
32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013-2473
Telephone: 212 337-5070
Fax: 212 645-5960
Email: [log in to unmask]



             "STAHLKE, HERBERT
             F"
             <[log in to unmask]                                          To
             >                         [log in to unmask]
             Sent by: Assembly                                          cc
             for the Teaching
             of English                                            Subject
             Grammar                   New English grammar
             <[log in to unmask]
             OHIO.EDU>


             11/19/2008 01:44
             PM


             Please respond to
             Assembly for the
                Teaching of
              English Grammar
             <[log in to unmask]
                 OHIO.EDU>






Is anyone familiar with The Teachers Grammar of English: a Coursebook and
Reference Guide, by Ron Cowan, from Cambridge University Press?  I just got
an announcement for it, and it looks promising.  A couple of chapters are
available for download at
http://www.cambridge.org/us/esl/email/Teachers_Grammar.html.

Herb
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:18:19 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: New English grammar
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

Sorry, all.  That was meant to go just to Terre.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 19, 2008 9:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: New English grammar

Terre,

I was planning to order a copy.  Although I'm retired now, I'm still intere=
sted in the problems of preparing language arts and composition teachers to=
 work intelligently and creatively with grammar.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 19, 2008 6:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: New English grammar

Herb,

I was one of the editors who worked on The Teacher's Grammar of English. It
was a very intense project, and I learned a lot from the author. I would be
very happy to hear feedback, positive or negative, about it  from anyone on
this list. I generally only lurk and take notes on what I have learned(!),
but this project consumed my life for about a year and a half, so I'm quite
interested in its "life" now that it's out there in the real world.

Terre

Teresa Lintner
Senior Development Editor
Cambridge University Press
32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013-2473
Telephone: 212 337-5070
Fax: 212 645-5960
Email: [log in to unmask]



             "STAHLKE, HERBERT
             F"
             <[log in to unmask]                                          To
             >                         [log in to unmask]
             Sent by: Assembly                                          cc
             for the Teaching
             of English                                            Subject
             Grammar                   New English grammar
             <[log in to unmask]
             OHIO.EDU>


             11/19/2008 01:44
             PM


             Please respond to
             Assembly for the
                Teaching of
              English Grammar
             <[log in to unmask]
                 OHIO.EDU>






Is anyone familiar with The Teachers Grammar of English: a Coursebook and
Reference Guide, by Ron Cowan, from Cambridge University Press?  I just got
an announcement for it, and it looks promising.  A couple of chapters are
available for download at
http://www.cambridge.org/us/esl/email/Teachers_Grammar.html.

Herb
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"

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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:31:25 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: New English grammar
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_Part_74061_18877846.1227263485261"

------=_Part_74061_18877846.1227263485261
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Teresa, I look forward to taking a look at this textbook! Looks very
exciting!

Herb, thanks for bringing it to our attention! If anyone in ATEG has a
chance to take a look at it before I do (and the chances are highly likely)
I'd love to hear some reviews!

Regards,

John Alexander
Austin, Texas

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Teresa Lintner <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Herb,
>
> I was one of the editors who worked on The Teacher's Grammar of English. It
> was a very intense project, and I learned a lot from the author. I would be
> very happy to hear feedback, positive or negative, about it  from anyone on
> this list. I generally only lurk and take notes on what I have learned(!),
> but this project consumed my life for about a year and a half, so I'm quite
> interested in its "life" now that it's out there in the real world.
>
> Terre
>
> Teresa Lintner
> Senior Development Editor
> Cambridge University Press
> 32 Avenue of the Americas
> New York, New York 10013-2473
> Telephone: 212 337-5070
> Fax: 212 645-5960
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>             "STAHLKE, HERBERT
>             F"
>             <[log in to unmask]                                          To
>             >                         [log in to unmask]
>             Sent by: Assembly                                          cc
>             for the Teaching
>             of English                                            Subject
>             Grammar                   New English grammar
>             <[log in to unmask]
>             OHIO.EDU >
>
>
>             11/19/2008 01:44
>             PM
>
>
>             Please respond to
>             Assembly for the
>                Teaching of
>              English Grammar
>             <[log in to unmask]
>                 OHIO.EDU >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Is anyone familiar with The Teachers Grammar of English: a Coursebook and
> Reference Guide, by Ron Cowan, from Cambridge University Press?  I just got
> an announcement for it, and it looks promising.  A couple of chapters are
> available for download at
> http://www.cambridge.org/us/esl/email/Teachers_Grammar.html.
>
> Herb
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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------=_Part_74061_18877846.1227263485261
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline


Teresa, I look forward to taking a look at this textbook! Looks very exciting!


 


Herb, thanks for bringing it to our attention! If anyone in ATEG has a chance to take a look at it before I do (and the chances are highly likely) I'd love to hear some reviews!


 


Regards,


 


John Alexander


Austin, Texas



On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Teresa Lintner <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Herb,

I was one of the editors who worked on The Teacher's Grammar of English. It
was a very intense project, and I learned a lot from the author. I would be

very happy to hear feedback, positive or negative, about it  from anyone on
this list. I generally only lurk and take notes on what I have learned(!),
but this project consumed my life for about a year and a half, so I'm quite

interested in its "life" now that it's out there in the real world.

Terre

Teresa Lintner
Senior Development Editor
Cambridge University Press
32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013-2473

Telephone: 212 337-5070
Fax: 212 645-5960
Email: [log in to unmask]



            "STAHLKE, HERBERT
            F"
            <[log in to unmask]                                          To

            >                         [log in to unmask]
            Sent by: Assembly                                          cc
            for the Teaching

            of English                                            Subject
            Grammar                   New English grammar
            <[log in to unmask]
            OHIO.EDU>



            11/19/2008 01:44
            PM


            Please respond to
            Assembly for the
               Teaching of
             English Grammar
            <[log in to unmask]

                OHIO.EDU>












Is anyone familiar with The Teachers Grammar of English: a Coursebook and
Reference Guide, by Ron Cowan, from Cambridge University Press?  I just got
an announcement for it, and it looks promising.  A couple of chapters are

available for download at
http://www.cambridge.org/us/esl/email/Teachers_Grammar.html.

Herb
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface

at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


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------=_Part_74061_18877846.1227263485261--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:59:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Teresa Lintner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: New English grammar
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hi John,

I'm happy to hear from you or anyone on this list about The Teacher's
Grammar of English. I have great respect for all of you and would value
your comments. If you would like more information about the book, please
contact me offlist.

Terre

Teresa Lintner
Senior Development Editor
Cambridge University Press
32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013-2473
Telephone: 212 337-5070
Fax: 212 645-5960
Email: [log in to unmask]


                                                                           
             John                                                          
             Dews-Alexander                                                
                               [log in to unmask]            
             Sent by: Assembly                                          cc 
             for the Teaching                                              
             of English                                            Subject 
             Grammar                   Re: New English grammar             
             <[log in to unmask]                                             
             OHIO.EDU>                                                     
                                                                           
                                                                           
             11/21/2008 05:31                                              
             AM                                                            
                                                                           
                                                                           
             Please respond to                                             
             Assembly for the                                              
                Teaching of                                                
              English Grammar                                              
             <[log in to unmask]                                             
                 OHIO.EDU>                                                 
                                                                           
                                                                           




Teresa, I look forward to taking a look at this textbook! Looks very
exciting!

Herb, thanks for bringing it to our attention! If anyone in ATEG has a
chance to take a look at it before I do (and the chances are highly likely)
I'd love to hear some reviews!

Regards,

John Alexander
Austin, Texas

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Teresa Lintner <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
  Herb,

  I was one of the editors who worked on The Teacher's Grammar of English.
  It
  was a very intense project, and I learned a lot from the author. I would
  be
  very happy to hear feedback, positive or negative, about it  from anyone
  on
  this list. I generally only lurk and take notes on what I have learned
  (!),
  but this project consumed my life for about a year and a half, so I'm
  quite
  interested in its "life" now that it's out there in the real world.

  Terre

  Teresa Lintner
  Senior Development Editor
  Cambridge University Press
  32 Avenue of the Americas
  New York, New York 10013-2473
  Telephone: 212 337-5070
  Fax: 212 645-5960
  Email: [log in to unmask]



              "STAHLKE, HERBERT
              F"
              <[log in to unmask]                                          To
              >                         [log in to unmask]
              Sent by: Assembly                                          cc
              for the Teaching
              of English                                            Subject
              Grammar                   New English grammar
              <[log in to unmask]
              OHIO.EDU:>


              11/19/2008 01:44
              PM


              Please respond to
              Assembly for the
                 Teaching of
               English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]
                  OHIO.EDU:>






  Is anyone familiar with The Teachers Grammar of English: a Coursebook and
  Reference Guide, by Ron Cowan, from Cambridge University Press?  I just
  got
  an announcement for it, and it looks promising.  A couple of chapters are
  available for download at
  http://www.cambridge.org/us/esl/email/Teachers_Grammar.html.

  Herb
  To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
  interface
  at:
      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
  and select "Join or leave the list"

  Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

  To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
  interface at:
      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
  and select "Join or leave the list"

  Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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the list"


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     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:22:04 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Why can't us?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2140841295-1227468124=:91407"

--0-2140841295-1227468124=:91407
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"A caller from Delaware chimed in to share his joy for the Fightins. He may=
 have created the next great=A0catchphrase, saying, 'Boston did it. The Whi=
te Sox did it. Why can't us? Why can't us?"
=A0
From=A0the Washington Post sports section.
=A0
We like=A0"why can't we?" but what about "Why not us?", which is sometimes=
=A0heard?=0A=0A=0A      

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--0-2140841295-1227468124=:91407
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


"A caller from Delaware chimed in to share his joy for the Fightins. He may have created the next great catchphrase, saying, 'Boston did it. The White Sox did it. Why can't us? Why can't us?"


 


From the Washington Post sports section.


 


We like "why can't we?" but what about "Why not us?", which is sometimes heard?





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Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:03:03 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From:         Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Why can't us?
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Yeah, the slighted past tense rules are bummed:  "You follow case  
rules.  Why not we?  Why not we?"


On Nov 23, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

> "A caller from Delaware chimed in to share his joy for the  
> Fightins. He may have created the next great catchphrase, saying,  
> 'Boston did it. The White Sox did it. Why can't us? Why can't us?"
>
> From the Washington Post sports section.
>
> We like "why can't we?" but what about "Why not us?", which is  
> sometimes heard?
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web  
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and  
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>


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Yeah, the slighted past =
tense rules are bummed: =A0"You follow case rules. =A0Why not we? =A0Why =
not we?"


On Nov 23, =
2008, at 1:22 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

"A caller from Delaware =
chimed in to share his joy for the Fightins. He may have created the =
next great=A0catchphrase, saying, 'Boston did it. The White Sox did it. =
Why can't us? Why can't us?"
 
=A0
 
From=A0the =
Washington Post sports section.
 
=A0
 
We like=A0"why =
can't we?" but what about "Why not us?", which is =
sometimes=A0heard?

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 =
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=
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Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:18:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
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From:         Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Why can't us?
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I put "why can't us" in the same category as "we was robbed."  I wish I =
knew of a good way to explain to students when / how a grammatical mistake =
becomes rhetorically effective.

Language Log talked a bit about "why can't us" here: http://languagelog.ldc=
.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D746=20

Beth

>>> Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> 11/23/2008 2:22 PM >>>
"A caller from Delaware chimed in to share his joy for the Fightins. He =
may have created the next great catchphrase, saying, 'Boston did it. The =
White Sox did it. Why can't us? Why can't us?"
=20
From the Washington Post sports section.
=20
We like "why can't we?" but what about "Why not us?", which is sometimes =
heard?




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Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:43:02 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
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From:         Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Why can't us?
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I would put it in the same category too, but I think I can explain  
why it works.  "We was robbed" sounds like a group of little guys  
being outwitted by smarter, slicker thinkers who know the rules and  
loopholes and can use it against the ignorant who only know they have  
been cheated but can't express a sound argument to prove why their  
loss is unfair.

I think the phrase "Why can't us?" expresses the underdog spirit of a  
come-from-behind, just-folks, pseudo-Palin mentality.  We have been  
so down-trodden, ain't it our turn now, gosh darn it?



On Nov 23, 2008, at 2:18 PM, Beth Young wrote:

> I put "why can't us" in the same category as "we was robbed."  I  
> wish I knew of a good way to explain to students when / how a  
> grammatical mistake becomes rhetorically effective.
>
> Language Log talked a bit about "why can't us" here: http:// 
> languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=746
>
> Beth
>
>>>> Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> 11/23/2008 2:22 PM >>>
> "A caller from Delaware chimed in to share his joy for the  
> Fightins. He may have created the next great catchphrase, saying,  
> 'Boston did it. The White Sox did it. Why can't us? Why can't us?"
>
> From the Washington Post sports section.
>
> We like "why can't we?" but what about "Why not us?", which is  
> sometimes heard?
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web  
> interface at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
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Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:10:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From:         Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Why can't us?
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I like this explanation.  It also explains why "ain't" can be so effective-=
-it has an emphatic "I'm one with the people" vibe.

thanks,

Beth

>>> Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> 11/23/2008 3:43 PM >>>
I would put it in the same category too, but I think I can explain =20
why it works.  "We was robbed" sounds like a group of little guys =20
being outwitted by smarter, slicker thinkers who know the rules and =20
loopholes and can use it against the ignorant who only know they have =20
been cheated but can't express a sound argument to prove why their =20
loss is unfair.

I think the phrase "Why can't us?" expresses the underdog spirit of a =20
come-from-behind, just-folks, pseudo-Palin mentality.  We have been =20
so down-trodden, ain't it our turn now, gosh darn it?



On Nov 23, 2008, at 2:18 PM, Beth Young wrote:

> I put "why can't us" in the same category as "we was robbed."  I =20
> wish I knew of a good way to explain to students when / how a =20
> grammatical mistake becomes rhetorically effective.
>
> Language Log talked a bit about "why can't us" here: http://=20
> languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D746
>
> Beth
>
>>>> Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> 11/23/2008 2:22 PM >>>
> "A caller from Delaware chimed in to share his joy for the =20
> Fightins. He may have created the next great catchphrase, saying, =20
> 'Boston did it. The White Sox did it. Why can't us? Why can't us?"
>
> From the Washington Post sports section.
>
> We like "why can't we?" but what about "Why not us?", which is =20
> sometimes heard?
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20

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Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:41:00 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      What price glory?
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I sat next to a lass=A0at Glory Days this evening, watching the Redskins sq=
ueak out a 20-17=A0win.=20
=A0
The young lady=A0is in her second year teaching 5th grade, including Englis=
h. I asked her if the past perfect is taught to 5th graders. Her reply: Wha=
t's the past perfect?=20
=A0
The young man next to her has taught=A03rd grade at the same school for fiv=
e years. He chimed in with, What's the past perfect?
=A0
54% of incoming college freshmen need remedial English.
=A0
.brad.sun.23nov08.=0A=0A=0A      

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I sat next to a lass at Glory Days this evening, watching the Redskins squeak out a 20-17 win. 


 


The young lady is in her second year teaching 5th grade, including English. I asked her if the past perfect is taught to 5th graders. Her reply: What's the past perfect? 


 


The young man next to her has taught 3rd grade at the same school for five years. He chimed in with, What's the past perfect?


 


54% of incoming college freshmen need remedial English.


 


.brad.sun.23nov08.



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Date:         Mon, 24 Nov 2008 05:45:54 +0300
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From:         MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
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Brad Johnston wrote:
> He chimed in with, What's the past perfect?
>  
>
That sounds like your worst nightmare, Brad. I've been reading a 
biography of John Boyd, written by Robert Coram, a journalist for the 
Atlanta Journal Constitution. Coram religiously avoids the past perfect, 
joyously piling simple past upon simple past, and may the reader beware.

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Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 2008 23:23:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Why can't us?
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I'd like to suggest something more mundane.  "Why can't us," which I hadn't=
 heard before but am not surprised at, joins the list of many uses of objec=
tive pronouns where a very formal grammar would insist on the subjective pr=
onoun.  H.L. Mencken discussed this with characteristic insight in The Amer=
ican Language.  Here are some other cases:

(A knock at the door.)
Who's there?  Me/It's me/I am/It is I.  (The last is said, as far as I know=
, only by Jesus speaking Elizabethan English and my high school senior Engl=
ish teacher's daughter when I phoned and asked for her so I could ask her o=
ut.)

Me and Billy are going fishing
Billy and me are going fishing.

Me, too.

Us two'll go with you.

She ran as fast as/faster than me.

and, as cited, Why not us.

Notice the one place it doesn't show up is as sole subject of a sentence, a=
s in "I'm going fishing."

What I think is going on is that the pragmatics of case selection is causin=
g the grammar of case selection to change.  While some of the examples abov=
e are pretty old in English, it is nonetheless the case that government of =
case in pronouns is becoming less a matter of what we call "grammatical cas=
e" and more a matter of pragmatic function.  If the pronoun shows up in a p=
lace that is not simply topic, as is the case with all of the examples I've=
 given, the objective form is used.  Even in the coordinate subjects, the l=
ength of the subject, the fact that it's not just a single pronoun, means t=
hat it contains some new information.  It's not just topic. =20

So how does this shift in usage come about?  Objective pronouns, in the tra=
ditional grammatical sense, occur as direct objects and as objects of prepo=
sitions, which means they will often be late or even final in a sentence.  =
Sentence-final position is typical the place for new information, which is =
why we tend to find the tonic accent for the sentence on the last stressed =
syllable.  "Give it to me" places some newness or at least emphasis on "me"=
 that "Gimme it" doesn't.  As case marking has gradually disappeared in Eng=
lish, over the course of Middle English, the role of function, focus vs. to=
pic, has led to the use of the objective, or focus, pronoun in places where=
 there is some new information, relegating the subjective pronoun to those =
cases where it is purely topic.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Beth Young [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 23, 2008 7:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why can't us?

I like this explanation.  It also explains why "ain't" can be so effective-=
-it has an emphatic "I'm one with the people" vibe.

thanks,

Beth

>>> Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> 11/23/2008 3:43 PM >>>
I would put it in the same category too, but I think I can explain
why it works.  "We was robbed" sounds like a group of little guys
being outwitted by smarter, slicker thinkers who know the rules and
loopholes and can use it against the ignorant who only know they have
been cheated but can't express a sound argument to prove why their
loss is unfair.

I think the phrase "Why can't us?" expresses the underdog spirit of a
come-from-behind, just-folks, pseudo-Palin mentality.  We have been
so down-trodden, ain't it our turn now, gosh darn it?



On Nov 23, 2008, at 2:18 PM, Beth Young wrote:

> I put "why can't us" in the same category as "we was robbed."  I
> wish I knew of a good way to explain to students when / how a
> grammatical mistake becomes rhetorically effective.
>
> Language Log talked a bit about "why can't us" here: http://
> languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D746
>
> Beth
>
>>>> Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> 11/23/2008 2:22 PM >>>
> "A caller from Delaware chimed in to share his joy for the
> Fightins. He may have created the next great catchphrase, saying,
> 'Boston did it. The White Sox did it. Why can't us? Why can't us?"
>
> From the Washington Post sports section.
>
> We like "why can't we?" but what about "Why not us?", which is
> sometimes heard?
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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Date:         Sun, 23 Nov 2008 23:24:08 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: What price glory?
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John Boyd as in Boyd Upchurch, the Alabama Baptist stock car racer English =
professor science fiction writer?  His Rakehells of Heaven is one of the fu=
nniest scifi novels I've ever read.  Imagine, if you will, a planet whose i=
nhabitants have the political structure of a loose confederation of undergr=
ound universities.

I'll have to look for Coram's book, past perfect or not.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of MC Johnstone [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 23, 2008 9:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What price glory?

Brad Johnston wrote:
> He chimed in with, What's the past perfect?
>
>
That sounds like your worst nightmare, Brad. I've been reading a
biography of John Boyd, written by Robert Coram, a journalist for the
Atlanta Journal Constitution. Coram religiously avoids the past perfect,
joyously piling simple past upon simple past, and may the reader beware.

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Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:31:39 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      the most articulate American
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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"Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
Brad,
=A0
Who is this naturalized German who came to the USA at age 13 and is now "th=
e best speaker and writer of our language?" I'm trying to figure that one o=
ut,=A0but I can't.
=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brad replied:
=A0
My Mom taught me to not say, "I can't", but to say, "I haven't yet".
=A0
You'll get it but if you don't, I won't let you dangle too long.
=A0
.brad.11feb08.
=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wow! Last February I said I wouldn't let you dangle but dangle you did.
=A0
I'm sorry.
=A0
Henry Kissinger.
=A0
I invite you to show me grammatical errors in his writing ... or speeches, =
if any are of record. Google is going to kill me, I suppose. No fair gangin=
g up, gang :)
=A0
.brad.25nov08.=0A=0A=0A      

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"Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 


Brad,


 


Who is this naturalized German who came to the USA at age 13 and is now "the best speaker and writer of our language?" I'm trying to figure that one out, but I can't.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Brad replied:


 


My Mom taught me to not say, "I can't", but to say, "I haven't yet".


 


You'll get it but if you don't, I won't let you dangle too long.


 


.brad.11feb08.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wow! Last February I said I wouldn't let you dangle but dangle you did.


 


I'm sorry.


 


Henry Kissinger.


 


I invite you to show me grammatical errors in his writing ... or speeches, if any are of record. Google is going to kill me, I suppose. No fair ganging up, gang :)


 


.brad.25nov08.



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Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:14:57 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
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              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
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Brad,=0A=091. I wasn't dangling -- in fact, I almost forgot that I ever ask=
ed the question (I've been occupied with other matters).=0A=092. Henry Kiss=
inger is a talented person, but I don't agree that he is "the best speaker =
and writer of our language," nor is he "The most articulate American." Good=
 use of grammar is not the only criterion of articulate speech or writing; =
in fact, it may not be the most important, either.=0A=093. I don't believe =
that it is possible (nor even desirable) to identify one person as "the mos=
t" or "the best" anything; as my rhetoric professors might have said: "Swee=
ping generalizations are never true!"=0ASorry to be contrary, but thanks ju=
st the same=A0for the belated response,=A0and may=A0all of=A0you lovely fel=
low grammar lovers=A0have a lovely, restful Thanksgiving.=0A=A0=0ARedundant=
ly yours,=0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=A0=0AP.S.=A0For those of you who might be inte=
rested in why I have been so long silent on=A0the list, you might want to c=
heck out the (lovely?)=A0website I designed for my school theatre program: =
www.pomperaug.com/organizations/theatre -- it's kept me busy, and it's a do=
ozy!=A0=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Brad Johnston <=
[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Tuesday, Novem=
ber 25, 2008 9:31:39 AM=0ASubject: the most articulate American=0A=0A=0A"Pa=
ul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: =0A=A0=0ABrad,=0A=A0=0AWho is thi=
s naturalized German who came to the USA at age 13 and is now "the best spe=
aker and writer of our language?" I'm trying to figure that one out,=A0but =
I can't.=0A=A0=0A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A=0ABrad replied:=0A=A0=0AMy Mom taught m=
e to not say, "I can't", but to say, "I haven't yet".=0A=A0=0AYou'll get it=
 but if you don't, I won't let you dangle too long.=0A=A0=0A.brad.11feb08.=
=0A=A0=0A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A=0AWow! Last February I said I wouldn't let you =
dangle but dangle you did.=0A=A0=0AI'm sorry.=0A=A0=0AHenry Kissinger.=0A=
=A0=0AI invite you to show me grammatical errors in his writing ... or spee=
ches, if any are of record. Google is going to kill me, I suppose. No fair =
ganging up, gang :)=0A=A0=0A.brad.25nov08. =0ATo join or leave this LISTSER=
V list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.ed=
u/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's we=
b site at http://ateg.org/

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Brad,


    

  1. I wasn't dangling -- in fact, I almost forgot that I ever asked the question (I've been occupied with other matters).
    2. 

  2. Henry Kissinger is a talented person, but I don't agree that he is "the best speaker and writer of our language," nor is he "The most articulate American." Good use of grammar is not the only criterion of articulate speech or writing; in fact, it may not be the most important, either.
    3. 

  3. I don't believe that it is possible (nor even desirable) to identify one person as "the most" or "the best" anything; as my rhetoric professors might have said: "Sweeping generalizations are never true!"


Sorry to be contrary, but thanks just the same for the belated response, and may all of you lovely fellow grammar lovers have a lovely, restful Thanksgiving.


 


Redundantly yours,


 


Paul D.


 


P.S. For those of you who might be interested in why I have been so long silent on the list, you might want to check out the (lovely?) website I designed for my school theatre program: www.pomperaug.com/organizations/theatre -- it's kept me busy, and it's a doozy! 








From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:31:39 AM
Subject: the most articulate American









"Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 

 


Brad,


 


Who is this naturalized German who came to the USA at age 13 and is now "the best speaker and writer of our language?" I'm trying to figure that one out, but I can't.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Brad replied:


 


My Mom taught me to not say, "I can't", but to say, "I haven't yet".


 


You'll get it but if you don't, I won't let you dangle too long.


 


.brad.11feb08.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wow! Last February I said I wouldn't let you dangle but dangle you did.


 


I'm sorry.


 


Henry Kissinger.


 


I invite you to show me grammatical errors in his writing ... or speeches, if any are of record. Google is going to kill me, I suppose. No fair ganging up, gang :)


 


.brad.25nov08.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:01:12 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-112915429-1227639672=:77953"

--0-112915429-1227639672=:77953
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Paul,
=A0
I agree with everything you say.
=A0
Before I can recall Henry's crown, I should ask you for the name of someone=
 who does it better, using your criteria.
=A0
Brad.

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:





Brad,
=A0
Henry Kissinger is a talented person, but I don't agree that he is "the bes=
t speaker and writer of our language," nor is he "The most articulate Ameri=
can." Good use of grammar is not the only criterion of articulate speech or=
 writing; in fact, it may not be the most important, either.
=A0
I don't believe that it is possible (nor even desirable) to identify one pe=
rson as "the most" or "the best" anything; as my rhetoric professors might =
have said: "Sweeping generalizations are never true!"
=A0=0A=0A=0A      

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Paul,


 


I agree with everything you say.


 


Before I can recall Henry's crown, I should ask you for the name of someone who does it better, using your criteria.


 


Brad.

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:









Brad,


 


Henry Kissinger is a talented person, but I don't agree that he is "the best speaker and writer of our language," nor is he "The most articulate American." Good use of grammar is not the only criterion of articulate speech or writing; in fact, it may not be the most important, either.

 

I don't believe that it is possible (nor even desirable) to identify one person as "the most" or "the best" anything; as my rhetoric professors might have said: "Sweeping generalizations are never true!"

 



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--0-112915429-1227639672=:77953--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:51:49 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-306657659-1227649909=:19544"

If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such=

--0-306657659-1227649909=:19544
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brad,=0A=0AIf you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such=
 a question. I see no=A0value in debating about who is or who isn't a bette=
r user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just=A0dwel=
l joyfully in=A0good language when I come across it and not make comparison=
s.=0A=0APaul=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Brad Johns=
ton <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Tuesday, =
November 25, 2008 2:01:12 PM=0ASubject: Re: the most articulate American=0A=
=0A=0APaul,=0A=0AI agree with everything you say.=0A=0ABefore I can recall =
Henry's crown, I should ask you for the name of someone who does it better,=
 using your criteria.=0A=0ABrad.=0A=0A--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger=
 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:=0A=0A=0ABrad,=0A=A0=0AHenry Kissinger is a tale=
nted person, but I don't agree that he is "the best speaker and writer of o=
ur language," nor is he "The most articulate American." Good use of grammar=
 is not the only criterion of articulate speech or writing; in fact, it may=
 not be the most important, either. =0A=A0 =0AI don't believe that it is po=
ssible (nor even desirable) to identify one person as "the most" or "the be=
st" anything; as my rhetoric professors might have said: "Sweeping generali=
zations are never true!" =0A =0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please=
 visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=
g.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at http=
://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Brad,


 


If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question. I see no value in debating about who is or who isn't a better user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.



Paul








From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:01:12 PM
Subject: Re: the most articulate American









Paul,


 


I agree with everything you say.


 


Before I can recall Henry's crown, I should ask you for the name of someone who does it better, using your criteria.


 


Brad.

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:









Brad,


 


Henry Kissinger is a talented person, but I don't agree that he is "the best speaker and writer of our language," nor is he "The most articulate American." Good use of grammar is not the only criterion of articulate speech or writing; in fact, it may not be the most important, either. 

  

I don't believe that it is possible (nor even desirable) to identify one person as "the most" or "the best" anything; as my rhetoric professors might have said: "Sweeping generalizations are never true!" 

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:45:46 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1964809312-1227656746=:68341"

--0-1964809312-1227656746=:68341
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day. =
Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five:=A0hated=
 it, didn't like it,=A0liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their compu=
ter tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.
=A0
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech prof=
essor if I could find one.
=A0
You don't like my choice, tell=A0us what yours is.
=A0
Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you =
do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough t=
o beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
=A0
Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not=A0Heming=
way and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Wh=
o's really got a handle on our language?
=A0
C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
=A0
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question=
. I see no=A0value in debating=A0who is or who isn't a better user of the E=
nglish language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just=A0dwell joyfully in=
=A0good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.
=A0=0A=0A=0A      

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Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five: hated it, didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.


 


Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech professor if I could find one.


 


You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.


 


Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.


 


Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?


 


C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?


 


--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


 


If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.


 



To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
      
--0-1964809312-1227656746=:68341--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:18:27 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The most articulate American? Let's see...in terms of speaking clearly, dis=
tinctly, and coherently in addition to displaying mastery over the English =
language, I'd=A0include the following on my list:
=A0
1. Sylvester Stallone
2. Brad Pitt
3. Anna Nicole Smith
4.=A0John McCain
5. Sarah Palin
=A0
The last two are clearly mavericks, both as politicians and public speakers=
. Oh, I almost forgot...Joe the Plumber. He's very articulate as well.
CLM
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: the most articulate American
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 6:45 PM







Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day. =
Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five:=A0hated=
 it, didn't like it,=A0liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their compu=
ter tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.
=A0
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech prof=
essor if I could find one.
=A0
You don't like my choice, tell=A0us what yours is.
=A0
Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you =
do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough t=
o beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
=A0
Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not=A0Heming=
way and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Wh=
o's really got a handle on our language?
=A0
C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
=A0
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question=
. I see no=A0value in debating=A0who is or who isn't a better user of the E=
nglish language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just=A0dwell joyfully in=
=A0good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.
=A0
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
 the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A=0A=0A      

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The most articulate American? Let's see...in terms of speaking clearly, distinctly, and coherently in addition to displaying mastery over the English language, I'd include the following on my list:


 


1. Sylvester Stallone


2. Brad Pitt


3. Anna Nicole Smith


4. John McCain


5. Sarah Palin


 


The last two are clearly mavericks, both as politicians and public speakers. Oh, I almost forgot...Joe the Plumber. He's very articulate as well.


CLM
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: the most articulate American
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 6:45 PM











Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five: hated it, didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.


 


Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech professor if I could find one.


 


You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.


 


Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.


 


Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?


 


C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?


 


--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


 


If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.


 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ 



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--0-1682131013-1227658707=:67006--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:20:15 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1)
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--Apple-Mail-9-243512117
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	delsp=yes;
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Barack Obama.

But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't  
want to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with  
him.  Clearly, you do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think  
Obama is a great orator (because politicians are full of b.s.), but  
since I'd rather listen to him than Henry and since he's kinda in the  
news right now, he's my choice for greatest political living orator.   
As far as verbal skills--and not speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert  
is very clever.  But he's playing the role of a sophist.  I also like  
Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. Mencken.


On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

> Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published  
> every day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it  
> one to five: hated it, didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot,  
> loved it. Then their computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade  
> a movie you haven't seen yet.
>
> Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a  
> speech professor if I could find one.
>
> You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.
>
> Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it?  
> If you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's  
> going to be tough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
>
> Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not  
> Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark.  
> Who is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?
>
> C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
>
> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a  
> question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better  
> user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just  
> dwell joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make  
> comparisons.
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web  
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and  
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>


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	charset=ISO-8859-1


Barack Obama. =A0

But you weren't really listening to =
Paul. =A0When he said he didn't want to play best and worst list games, =
you said you agreed with him. =A0Clearly, you do not agree with him. =A0I =
don't particularly think Obama is a great orator (because politicians =
are full of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to him than Henry and =
since he's kinda in the news right now, he's my choice for greatest =
political living orator. =A0As far as verbal skills--and not =
speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very clever. =A0But he's playing =
the role of a sophist. =A0I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and =
H.L. Mencken.


On Nov 25, =
2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

Whadaya talking about? =
There are Best and Worst lists published every day. Netflix sends you a =
DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five:=A0hated =
it, didn't like it,=A0liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their =
computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen =
yet.
 
=A0
 
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic =
sitting in the back - a speech professor if I could find one.
 =

=A0
 
You don't like my choice, tell=A0us what yours =
is.
 
=A0
 
Don't you pay attention to what people =
write and how they write it? If you do, you must think some are better =
than others. Henry's going to be tough to beat but go ahead and try it. =
Take a shot.
 
=A0
 
Anyone else want to take a shot =
and let Paul hunker down? It's not=A0Hemingway and it's not George Bush =
and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Who's really got a handle on =
our language?
 
=A0
 
C'mon, gang. Who's really good =
at it?
 
=A0
 
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. =
Doniger <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:
 
=A0
 
If you agreed with everything I said, =
then you wouldn't ask such a question. I see no=A0value in debating=A0who =
is or who isn't a better user of the English language than Henry =
Kissinger. I'd rather just=A0dwell joyfully in=A0good language when I =
come across it and not make comparisons.
 
=A0

 To join or leave this =
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:     http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 
 =
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =
     

=
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     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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--Apple-Mail-9-243512117--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:48:59 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Atchley, Clinton" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It depends, of course, on your definition of "great" and "articulate," =
but for his ability to work an audience, it has to be Bill Clinton.
=20
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Director, Master of Liberal Arts Program
Box 7652
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone:  870.230.5276
Email:  [log in to unmask]
URL:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Susan =
van Druten
Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 6:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: the most articulate American


Barack Obama.  =20

But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't want =
to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him.  =
Clearly, you do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think Obama is =
a great orator (because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd =
rather listen to him than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right =
now, he's my choice for greatest political living orator.  As far as =
verbal skills--and not speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very =
clever.  But he's playing the role of a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain =
and George Orwell and H.L. Mencken.


On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:


Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every =
day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five: =
hated it, didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their =
computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen =
yet.
=20
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech =
professor if I could find one.
=20
You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.
=20
Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If =
you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be =
tough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
=20
Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not =
Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who =
is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?
=20
C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
=20
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=20
If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a =
question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user =
of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell =
joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make =
comparisons.
=20

	To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20

	Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org  /=20


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:35:46 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1148183221-1227670546=:40398"

--0-1148183221-1227670546=:40398
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

GOOD shot!
=A0
Depends on what the definition of "is" is, n.t.s.
=A0
Has he ever written anything we can get hold of? that he wrote himself?
=A0

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

It depends, of course, on your definition of "great" and
"articulate," but for his ability to work an audience, it has to be
Bill Clinton.
=20
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Director, Master of Liberal Arts Program
Box 7652
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone:  870.230.5276
Email:  [log in to unmask]
URL:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Susan van
Druten
Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 6:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: the most articulate American


Barack Obama.  =20

But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't want
to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him.  Clearly, =
you
do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think Obama is a great orator
(because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to him
than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right now, he's my choice
for greatest political living orator.  As far as verbal skills--and not
speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very clever.  But he's playing the
role of a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. Menck=
en.


On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:


Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day.
Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five: hated i=
t,
didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their computer
tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.
=20
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech
professor if I could find one.
=20
You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.
=20
Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you
do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough t=
o
beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
=20
Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not
Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who
is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?
=20
C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
=20
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=20
If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a
question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user of
the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell joyfully i=
n
good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.
=20

=0A=0A=0A      

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     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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--0-1148183221-1227670546=:40398
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


GOOD shot!


 


Depends on what the definition of "is" is, n.t.s.


 


Has he ever written anything we can get hold of? that he wrote himself?


 



--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


It depends, of course, on your definition of "great" and
"articulate," but for his ability to work an audience, it has to be
Bill Clinton.
 
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Director, Master of Liberal Arts Program
Box 7652
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone:  870.230.5276
Email:  [log in to unmask] 
URL:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec 

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Susan van
Druten
Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 6:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: the most articulate American


Barack Obama.   

But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't want
to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him.  Clearly, you
do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think Obama is a great orator
(because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to him
than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right now, he's my choice
for greatest political living orator.  As far as verbal skills--and not
speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very clever.  But he's playing the
role of a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. Mencken.


On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:


Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day.
Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five: hated it,
didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their computer
tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.
 
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech
professor if I could find one.
 
You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.
 
Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you
do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough to
beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
 
Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not
Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who
is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?
 
C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
 
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 
If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a
question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user of
the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell joyfully in
good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.
 





To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"


Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
      
--0-1148183221-1227670546=:40398--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:35:56 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The great thing about best/worst lists is that they allow one to take
whatever one's personal opinions are and repackage them as something
vaguely resembling objectivity. Therefore, I shall now settle the issue
once and for all by proposing a simple criterion:

A speaker is not qualified to be considered a contender for "best
speaker" unless s/he can spontaneously utter a contextually appropriate,
and non-self-referential, sentence containing the words 'defenestrate,'
'capybara,' 'promontory' and 'snood'.

There you have it. I have no examples of any utterance meeting the
criterion, and hence there is no best speaker.

Sincerely,

Bill Spruiell

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Atchley, Clinton
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 8:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: the most articulate American

It depends, of course, on your definition of "great" and "articulate,"
but for his ability to work an audience, it has to be Bill Clinton.
=20
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Director, Master of Liberal Arts Program
Box 7652
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone:  870.230.5276
Email:  [log in to unmask]
URL:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Susan
van Druten
Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 6:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: the most articulate American


Barack Obama.  =20

But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't want
to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him.
Clearly, you do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think Obama is
a great orator (because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd
rather listen to him than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right
now, he's my choice for greatest political living orator.  As far as
verbal skills--and not speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very
clever.  But he's playing the role of a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain
and George Orwell and H.L. Mencken.


On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:


Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every
day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five:
hated it, didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their
computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen
yet.
=20
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech
professor if I could find one.
=20
You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.
=20
Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If
you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be
tough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
=20
Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not
Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who
is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?
=20
C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
=20
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=20
If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a
question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user
of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell
joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make
comparisons.
=20

	To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20

	Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org  /=20


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:00:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Teresa Lintner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Teresa Lintner is out of the office.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I will be out of the office starting  11/25/2008 and will not return until
12/02/2008.

I will be checking my email periodically.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:12:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Experimental design help
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2144361772-1227733926=:203"

--0-2144361772-1227733926=:203
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear List:
=A0
I want to test a technique involving grammar for its effectiveness in impro=
ving reading comprehension.=A0 Please let me know what you think of my desi=
gn and if you have any suggestions for related research.
=A0
I want to test the whether breaking prose into grammatical chunks and arran=
ging those chunks on the page to show their relationships improves reading =
comprehension.=A0 The basic idea is that if students can see the pattern of=
 phrases and clauses in sentences, then they will better understand the pas=
sage.=A0=20
=A0
Using brief passages with multiple choice questions, each student will read=
 some passages in normal prose and others in what I call "graphic syntax," =
text with the phrase and clause structure made clearer.=A0 Half the student=
s will do one set, the odd numbers, say, in normal text and the=A0evens in =
graphic syntax; the other half will do the evens in normal text and the odd=
s in graphic syntax.=A0 Thus, every passage and question will have a contro=
l group, but the students themselves don't have to be controlled.=A0 I will=
 compare the error rate on each set to see if there is any large difference=
.=A0=20
=A0
The group would be 112 seventh graders whose median reading percentile is 9=
1 and median language arts percentile is 95.
=A0
I did this experiment last year and found a slight difference in favor of t=
he experimental condition, but I let students take as much time as they nee=
ded and refer back to the text.=A0 This time, I will have them read the pas=
sage under timed conditions, then turn the page and answer the questions un=
der timed conditions.=A0 This should more closely mimic the real conditions=
 of normal reading, where one does not go back to the text to find informat=
ion to specific questions.=A0 Time pressure highlights the difference betwe=
en solid performance and superior performance.
=A0
A related experiment would include a control group which does not know much=
 about formal grammar and a group which does, that is, which has studied an=
d can name and create the phrases and clauses into which the text is divide=
d.=A0 This condition would test the utility of teaching students to name an=
d create phrases and clauses as an aide to reading comprehension.
=A0
Any suggestions for changes, clarification, sources?
=A0
Thanks,=20
Scott Woods=0A=0A=0A      

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     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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--0-2144361772-1227733926=:203
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


Dear List:


 


I want to test a technique involving grammar for its effectiveness in improving reading comprehension.  Please let me know what you think of my design and if you have any suggestions for related research.


 


I want to test the whether breaking prose into grammatical chunks and arranging those chunks on the page to show their relationships improves reading comprehension.  The basic idea is that if students can see the pattern of phrases and clauses in sentences, then they will better understand the passage.  


 


Using brief passages with multiple choice questions, each student will read some passages in normal prose and others in what I call "graphic syntax," text with the phrase and clause structure made clearer.  Half the students will do one set, the odd numbers, say, in normal text and the evens in graphic syntax; the other half will do the evens in normal text and the odds in graphic syntax.  Thus, every passage and question will have a control group, but the students themselves don't have to be controlled.  I will compare the error rate on each set to see if there is any large difference.  


 


The group would be 112 seventh graders whose median reading percentile is 91 and median language arts percentile is 95.


 


I did this experiment last year and found a slight difference in favor of the experimental condition, but I let students take as much time as they needed and refer back to the text.  This time, I will have them read the passage under timed conditions, then turn the page and answer the questions under timed conditions.  This should more closely mimic the real conditions of normal reading, where one does not go back to the text to find information to specific questions.  Time pressure highlights the difference between solid performance and superior performance.


 


A related experiment would include a control group which does not know much about formal grammar and a group which does, that is, which has studied and can name and create the phrases and clauses into which the text is divided.  This condition would test the utility of teaching students to name and create phrases and clauses as an aide to reading comprehension.


 


Any suggestions for changes, clarification, sources?


 


Thanks, 
Scott Woods



To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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--0-2144361772-1227733926=:203--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:22:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Wollin, Edith" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Experimental design help
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C9500D.1DE344F0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C9500D.1DE344F0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Scott, What I can tell you is that Michael Kischner and I have had many
many students tell us that after doing our grammar class, which includes
diagramming and sentence combining with a focus on syntax,  students
report that they are much better readers than they were before. This
would seem to support your idea. But it isn't real research!

Edith Wollin=20

=20

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Experimental design help

=20

Dear List:

=20

I want to test a technique involving grammar for its effectiveness in
improving reading comprehension.  Please let me know what you think of
my design and if you have any suggestions for related research.

=20

I want to test the whether breaking prose into grammatical chunks and
arranging those chunks on the page to show their relationships improves
reading comprehension.  The basic idea is that if students can see the
pattern of phrases and clauses in sentences, then they will better
understand the passage. =20

=20

Using brief passages with multiple choice questions, each student will
read some passages in normal prose and others in what I call "graphic
syntax," text with the phrase and clause structure made clearer.  Half
the students will do one set, the odd numbers, say, in normal text and
the evens in graphic syntax; the other half will do the evens in normal
text and the odds in graphic syntax.  Thus, every passage and question
will have a control group, but the students themselves don't have to be
controlled.  I will compare the error rate on each set to see if there
is any large difference. =20

=20

The group would be 112 seventh graders whose median reading percentile
is 91 and median language arts percentile is 95.

=20

I did this experiment last year and found a slight difference in favor
of the experimental condition, but I let students take as much time as
they needed and refer back to the text.  This time, I will have them
read the passage under timed conditions, then turn the page and answer
the questions under timed conditions.  This should more closely mimic
the real conditions of normal reading, where one does not go back to the
text to find information to specific questions.  Time pressure
highlights the difference between solid performance and superior
performance.

=20

A related experiment would include a control group which does not know
much about formal grammar and a group which does, that is, which has
studied and can name and create the phrases and clauses into which the
text is divided.  This condition would test the utility of teaching
students to name and create phrases and clauses as an aide to reading
comprehension.

=20

Any suggestions for changes, clarification, sources?

=20

Thanks,=20
Scott Woods


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C9500D.1DE344F0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
















Scott, What I can tell you is that Michael Kischner and I =
have
had many many students tell us that after doing our grammar class, which =
includes
diagramming and sentence combining with a focus on syntax, =
 students report
that they are much better readers than they were before. This would seem =
to
support your idea. But it isn’t real =
research!



Edith Wollin 



 






From:=
 Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On =
Behalf Of Scott
Woods

Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:12 PM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Experimental design help






 




 

  
  

  
Dear List:

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
I want to test a technique involving grammar for =
its
  effectiveness in improving reading comprehension.  Please let me =
know
  what you think of my design and if you have any suggestions for =
related
  research.

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
I want to test the whether breaking prose into =
grammatical
  chunks and arranging those chunks on the page to show their =
relationships
  improves reading comprehension.  The basic idea is that if =
students can
  see the pattern of phrases and clauses in sentences, then they will =
better
  understand the passage.  

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
Using brief passages with multiple choice =
questions, each
  student will read some passages in normal prose and others in what I =
call
  "graphic syntax," text with the phrase and clause structure =
made
  clearer.  Half the students will do one set, the odd numbers, =
say, in
  normal text and the evens in graphic syntax; the other half will =
do the
  evens in normal text and the odds in graphic syntax.  Thus, every
  passage and question will have a control group, but the students =
themselves
  don't have to be controlled.  I will compare the error rate on =
each set
  to see if there is any large difference.  

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
The group would be 112 seventh graders whose =
median
  reading percentile is 91 and median language arts percentile is =
95.

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
I did this experiment last year and found a =
slight
  difference in favor of the experimental condition, but I let students =
take as
  much time as they needed and refer back to the text.  This time, =
I will
  have them read the passage under timed conditions, then turn the page =
and
  answer the questions under timed conditions.  This should more =
closely
  mimic the real conditions of normal reading, where one does not go =
back to
  the text to find information to specific questions.  Time =
pressure
  highlights the difference between solid performance and superior =
performance.

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
A related experiment would include a control =
group which
  does not know much about formal grammar and a group which does, that =
is,
  which has studied and can name and create the phrases and clauses into =
which
  the text is divided.  This condition would test the utility of =
teaching
  students to name and create phrases and clauses as an aide to reading =
comprehension.

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
Any suggestions for changes, clarification, =
sources?

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
Thanks, 

  Scott Woods

  

  		
 







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leave
the list" 



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------_=_NextPart_001_01C9500D.1DE344F0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:10:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Obama: the most articulate American?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-9942147-1227744606=:19243"

--0-9942147-1227744606=:19243
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



And you weren't listening to Paul and Brad.=A0Paul=A0wrote, Brad replied th=
at he agrees with what Paul=A0wrote, and=A0then Paul=A0added=A0as below.
=A0
But that's no never mind. Consider this. In "The Audacity of Hope", Barack =
Obama wrote about Michelle, "Two visions of herself were at war with each o=
ther -- the desire to be the woman her mother (had been) was, solid, depend=
able, making a home and always there for her kids; and the desire to excel =
in her profession, to make her mark on the world and realize all those plan=
s she (had) had on the very first day (that) we met." (From Today's Washing=
ton Post.)
=A0
(On February 14 last, I wrote to the listserv: "In the first twenty-one pag=
es of "The Audacity of Hope", by Barack Obama, c.2006, the word "had" appea=
rs 68 times.=A0Of the total, 16 are used correctly as the past tense of the=
 verb "to have" (11), or in the past perfect (2), or in the subjunctive (2)=
.=A0Of the 52=A0in error, 5 use "had been"' instead of "was" or "were", 13 =
insert the word 'had' in front of=A0the wrong form of an irregular verb, an=
d 34 insert the word "had" in front of a past tense verb.)
=A0
As for his speaking articulateness, a dozen people have said to me that Oba=
ma is a good teleprompter reader, even a great=A0teleprompter reader. Next =
time he gives a speech on TV, watch his head and eyes go from side to side,=
 like a music teacher's metronome, seldom or never=A0looking straight ahead=
. I have conceded to the dozen that they have a point. Let's keep a sharp l=
ookout.
=A0
Henry Kissinger has a heavy German accent, having come to this country when=
 he was 13 years old, 7 years past the presumed limit=A0for learning anothe=
r language without keeping the accent of those at the family dinner table. =
He's hard to listen to but read a transcript of what he says.
=A0
.brad.26nov08.
=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~=A0

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
Barack Obama. =A0=20


But you weren't really listening to Paul. =A0When he said he didn't want to=
 play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him. =A0Clearly, =
you do not agree with him. =A0I don't particularly think Obama is a great o=
rator (because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen t=
o him than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right now, he's my choice=
 for greatest political living orator. =A0As far as verbal skills--and not =
speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very clever. =A0But he's playing th=
e role of a sophist. =A0I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. M=
encken.
=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~=A0




On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:






Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day. =
Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five:=A0hated=
 it, didn't like it,=A0liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their compu=
ter tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.
=A0
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech prof=
essor if I could find one.
=A0
You don't like my choice, tell=A0us what yours is.
=A0
Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you =
do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough t=
o beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
=A0
Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not=A0Heming=
way and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Wh=
o's really got a handle on our language?
=A0
C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~=A0
=A0
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question=
. I see no=A0value in debating=A0who is or who isn't a better user of the E=
nglish language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just=A0dwell joyfully in=
=A0good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.
=0A=0A=0A      

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And you weren't listening to Paul and Brad. Paul wrote, Brad replied that he agrees with what Paul wrote, and then Paul added as below.


 


But that's no never mind. Consider this. In "The Audacity of Hope", Barack Obama wrote about Michelle, "Two visions of herself were at war with each other -- the desire to be the woman her mother (had been) was, solid, dependable, making a home and always there for her kids; and the desire to excel in her profession, to make her mark on the world and realize all those plans she (had) had on the very first day (that) we met." (From Today's Washington Post.)


 


(On February 14 last, I wrote to the listserv: "In the first twenty-one pages of "The Audacity of Hope", by Barack Obama, c.2006, the word "had" appears 68 times. Of the total, 16 are used correctly as the past tense of the verb "to have" (11), or in the past perfect (2), or in the subjunctive (2). Of the 52 in error, 5 use "had been"' instead of "was" or "were", 13 insert the word 'had' in front of the wrong form of an irregular verb, and 34 insert the word "had" in front of a past tense verb.)


 


As for his speaking articulateness, a dozen people have said to me that Obama is a good teleprompter reader, even a great teleprompter reader. Next time he gives a speech on TV, watch his head and eyes go from side to side, like a music teacher's metronome, seldom or never looking straight ahead. I have conceded to the dozen that they have a point. Let's keep a sharp lookout.


 


Henry Kissinger has a heavy German accent, having come to this country when he was 13 years old, 7 years past the presumed limit for learning another language without keeping the accent of those at the family dinner table. He's hard to listen to but read a transcript of what he says.


 


.brad.26nov08.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~ 

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


 


Barack Obama.   




But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't want to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him.  Clearly, you do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think Obama is a great orator (because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to him than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right now, he's my choice for greatest political living orator.  As far as verbal skills--and not speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very clever.  But he's playing the role of a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. Mencken.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~ 









On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:











Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five: hated it, didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.


 


Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech professor if I could find one.


 


You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.


 


Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.


 


Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?


 


C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?


 


~~~~~~~~~~~ 


 


--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


 


If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.




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--0-9942147-1227744606=:19243--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:55:08 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Experimental design help
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 03:12 PM 11/26/2008, Scott Woods wrote:
>I want to test a technique involving grammar for its effectiveness 
>in improving reading comprehension.  Please let me know what you 
>think of my design and if you have any suggestions for related research. . . .

DD: You called? From out of the wood work comes there now a 
Psychometrician (Retired.) It sounds like a sound design, as 
presented. However {Ever notice how there is always a caveat?} you 
are dealing with a rather high end sample.* High IQ and all that. Do 
the study. Slap it into a Chi Square contingency test and see. Make 
sure the groups are selected truly randomly. Report the results. I 
personally think you are doing true science here. A lot rarer than 
you would think. The null hypothesis is there will not be a 
significant difference. Fifty fifty. I'd go for the more risky a 
priori prediction that there will be one in favor of the graphic 
syntax. That way I get to use a one tail test and that allows 
significance at a lower level. It is risky, though, because if it 
turns around and bites YOU on the tail and the normal text group 
comes out ahead, the experimenter is required to perform a ritual 
self immolation. We rarely do, though. Just lie and report we did no 
a priori post hoc corrections. Keep me posted. Fascinating to see a 
well designed experiment before it is done. Usually the 
psychometrician just gets a bunch of results and is asked to make 
sense out of it. {Usually by an attractive graduate student. Blonde 
preferred.} I suspect that timing will indeed change the results, but 
that a correlation between speed v extended time will show a high r. 
Suggestion for future reading - anything by Ohmer Milton. I remain, 
your faithful friend and joyous companion in original research.

* Ware the regression toward the mean.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:02:28 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Woods' Test, was Re: Experimental design help
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask] .EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 03:22 PM 11/26/2008, Wollin, Edith wrote:
>Scott, What I can tell you is that Michael Kischner and I have had 
>many many students tell us that after doing our grammar class, which 
>includes diagramming and sentence combining with a focus on 
>syntax,  students report that they are much better readers than they 
>were before. This would seem to support your idea. But it isn't real research!
>Edith Wollin

DD: At a State University I taught, "Theory of Science." Speaking ex 
Cathedra; Of course it is real research. Just call it a 
phenomenological study and there you are. One of the crucial steps in 
the scientific process.  

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:21:16 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Woods' Test;  was; Re: Experimental design help
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask] .EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 03:22 PM 11/26/2008, Wollin, Edith wrote: . . .Michael Kischner 
and I have had many many students tell us that after doing our 
grammar class, which includes diagramming and sentence combining with 
a focus on syntax,  students report that they are much better readers 
than they were before. . . .

DD: Buy and read Edith Wollin and Michael Kischner's "Writers' 
Choices, Grammar to Improve Style." ISBN 015506374X. I just got my 
copy and it is fascinating, valuable, entertaining, and as soon as I 
go off the Internet, it is back to plunge in again. Well done, Mam, 
and thank you, tugging my forelock. Well more like knuckling my 
forehead, as male pattern baldness has struck. DD

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:27:20 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: the most articulate American
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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Wait a sec, are you saying you know for a fact that Henry K. wrote  
all his own speeches?  What is your source?



On Nov 25, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

> GOOD shot!
>
> Depends on what the definition of "is" is, n.t.s.
>
> Has he ever written anything we can get hold of? that he wrote  
> himself?
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> It depends, of course, on your definition of "great" and
> "articulate," but for his ability to work an audience, it has to be
> Bill Clinton.
>
> Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English
> Director, Master of Liberal Arts Program
> Box 7652
> Henderson State University
> Arkadelphia, AR  71999
> Phone:  870.230.5276
> Email:  [log in to unmask]
> URL:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of  
> Susan van
> Druten
> Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 6:20 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: the most articulate American
>
>
> Barack Obama.
>
> But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't want
> to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him.   
> Clearly, you
> do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think Obama is a great  
> orator
> (because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen  
> to him
> than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right now, he's my choice
> for greatest political living orator.  As far as verbal skills--and  
> not
> speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very clever.  But he's  
> playing the
> role of a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and  
> H.L. Mencken.
>
>
> On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:
>
>
> Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published  
> every day.
> Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five:  
> hated it,
> didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their  
> computer
> tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.
>
> Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech
> professor if I could find one.
>
> You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.
>
> Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it?  
> If you
> do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be  
> tough to
> beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
>
> Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not
> Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark.  
> Who
> is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?
>
> C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
>
> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a
> question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better  
> user of
> the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell  
> joyfully in
> good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web  
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and  
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>


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Wait a sec, are you saying you know for a fact that Henry K. wrote all =
his own speeches? =A0What is your =
source?



On Nov 25, 2008, =
at 9:35 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

GOOD =
shot!
 
=A0
 =

Depends on what the definition of "is" is, =
n.t.s.
 
=A0
 
Has =
he ever written anything we can get hold of? that he wrote =
himself?
 
=A0
 

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, =
Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:
 
It depends, of course, =
on your definition of "great" and
"articulate," but for his ability to work an audience, it has to be
Bill Clinton.
=20
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Director, Master of Liberal Arts Program
Box 7652
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone:  870.230.5276
Email:  [log in to unmask]
URL:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Susan =
van
Druten
Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 6:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: the most articulate American


Barack Obama.  =20

But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't want
to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him.  =
Clearly, you
do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think Obama is a great =
orator
(because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to =
him
than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right now, he's my choice
for greatest political living orator.  As far as verbal skills--and not
speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very clever.  But he's playing =
the
role of a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. =
Mencken.


On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:


Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every =
day.
Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five: =
hated it,
didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their computer
tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.
=20
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech
professor if I could find one.
=20
You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.
=20
Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If =
you
do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be =
tough to
beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
=20
Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not
Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who
is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?
=20
C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
=20
--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=20
If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a
question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user =
of
the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell =
joyfully in
good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.
=20



 To join or leave this =
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:     http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 
 =
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =
     

=
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--Apple-Mail-10-333937834--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:49:39 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Obama: the most articulate American?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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You want a "nevermind" 'cause you are at fault.  So I understand why  
you'd like a pass on that.  I'll let it go because we have bigger  
disagreements.

Most political speakers have speech writers--so I discount their use  
of language and go for their delivery and charisma 'cause you can't  
trust that they wrote their own words.

Some political speakers have oral flaws.  Henry's got a huge one and  
you want to wave it away.  Not so fast.  If he can work on his  
grammar, what the hell is keeping him from working on his dialect.   
Meryl Streep can do it.  Why is Kissinger finding it so difficult?

Perhaps learning how to pronounce a word in an accurate American  
dialect might be the same as knowing how to please Brad Johnston with  
the correct past tense form?



On Nov 26, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

> And you weren't listening to Paul and Brad. Paul wrote, Brad  
> replied that he agrees with what Paul wrote, and then Paul added as  
> below.
>
> But that's no never mind. Consider this. In "The Audacity of Hope",  
> Barack Obama wrote about Michelle, "Two visions of herself were at  
> war with each other -- the desire to be the woman her mother (had  
> been) was, solid, dependable, making a home and always there for  
> her kids; and the desire to excel in her profession, to make her  
> mark on the world and realize all those plans she (had) had on the  
> very first day (that) we met." (From Today's Washington Post.)
>
> (On February 14 last, I wrote to the listserv: "In the first twenty- 
> one pages of "The Audacity of Hope", by Barack Obama, c.2006, the  
> word "had" appears 68 times. Of the total, 16 are used correctly as  
> the past tense of the verb "to have" (11), or in the past perfect  
> (2), or in the subjunctive (2). Of the 52 in error, 5 use "had  
> been"' instead of "was" or "were", 13 insert the word 'had' in  
> front of the wrong form of an irregular verb, and 34 insert the  
> word "had" in front of a past tense verb.)
>
> As for his speaking articulateness, a dozen people have said to me  
> that Obama is a good teleprompter reader, even a great teleprompter  
> reader. Next time he gives a speech on TV, watch his head and eyes  
> go from side to side, like a music teacher's metronome, seldom or  
> never looking straight ahead. I have conceded to the dozen that  
> they have a point. Let's keep a sharp lookout.
>
> Henry Kissinger has a heavy German accent, having come to this  
> country when he was 13 years old, 7 years past the presumed limit  
> for learning another language without keeping the accent of those  
> at the family dinner table. He's hard to listen to but read a  
> transcript of what he says.
>
> .brad.26nov08.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Barack Obama.
>
> But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't  
> want to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with  
> him.  Clearly, you do not agree with him.  I don't particularly  
> think Obama is a great orator (because politicians are full of  
> b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to him than Henry and since he's  
> kinda in the news right now, he's my choice for greatest political  
> living orator.  As far as verbal skills--and not speeches--go, I  
> think Steven Colbert is very clever.  But he's playing the role of  
> a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. Mencken.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:
>
>> Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published  
>> every day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it  
>> one to five: hated it, didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot,  
>> loved it. Then their computer tells you what it thinks you'll  
>> grade a movie you haven't seen yet.
>>
>> Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a  
>> speech professor if I could find one.
>>
>> You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.
>>
>> Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write  
>> it? If you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's  
>> going to be tough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
>>
>> Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not  
>> Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins  
>> Clark. Who is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?
>>
>> C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a  
>> question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better  
>> user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just  
>> dwell joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make  
>> comparisons.
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web  
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and  
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>


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You want a "nevermind" =
'cause you are at fault. =A0So I understand why you'd like a pass on =
that. =A0I'll let it go=A0because=A0we have bigger disagreements. =
=A0

Most political speakers have speech =
writers--so I discount their use of language and go for their delivery =
and=A0charisma=A0'cause you can't trust that they wrote their own words. =
=A0

Some political speakers have oral flaws. =
=A0Henry's got a huge one and you want to wave it away. =A0Not so fast. =
=A0If he can work on his grammar, what the hell is keeping him from =
working on his dialect. =A0Meryl Streep can do it. =A0Why is Kissinger =
finding it so difficult? =A0

Perhaps learning =
how to pronounce a word in an=A0accurate=A0American dialect might be the =
same as knowing how to please Brad Johnston with the correct past tense =
form?



On Nov =
26, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

 
 
And you weren't listening to Paul and =
Brad.=A0Paul=A0wrote, Brad replied that he agrees with what Paul=A0wrote, =
and=A0then Paul=A0added=A0as below.
 
=A0
 
But =
that's no never mind. Consider this. In "The Audacity =
of Hope", Barack Obama wrote about Michelle, "Two visions of herself =
were at war with each other -- the desire to be the woman her mother =
(had been) =
was, solid, dependable, making a home and always there for =
her kids; and the desire to excel in her profession, to make her mark on =
the world and realize all those plans she (had) had on the =
very first day (that) we met." (=46rom Today's Washington =
Post.)
 
=A0
 
(On February 14 last, I wrote to the =
listserv: "In the first twenty-one pages of "The Audacity of Hope", by =
Barack Obama, c.2006, the word "had" appears 68 times.=A0Of the total, =
16 are used correctly as the past tense of the verb "to have" (11), or =
in the past perfect (2), or in the subjunctive (2).=A0Of the 52=A0in =
error, 5 use "had been"' instead of "was" or "were", 13 insert the word =
'had' in front of=A0the wrong form of an irregular verb, and 34 insert =
the word "had" in front of a past tense verb.)
 
=A0
 =

As for his speaking articulateness, a dozen people have said to me =
that Obama is a good teleprompter reader, even a great=A0teleprompter =
reader. Next time he gives a speech on TV, watch his head and eyes go =
from side to side, like a music teacher's metronome, seldom or =
never=A0looking straight ahead. I have conceded to the dozen that they =
have a point. Let's keep a sharp lookout.
 
=A0
 =

Henry Kissinger has a heavy German accent, having come to this =
country when he was 13 years old, 7 years past the presumed limit=A0for =
learning another language without keeping the accent of those at the =
family dinner table. He's hard to listen to but read a transcript of =
what he says.
 
=A0
 
.brad.26nov08.
 =

=A0
 
~~~~~~~~~~~=A0

--- On Tue, =
11/25/08, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:
 
=A0
 
Barack Obama. =A0 =


 
But you weren't really listening to Paul. =A0When =
he said he didn't want to play best and worst list games, you said you =
agreed with him. =A0Clearly, you do not agree with him. =A0I don't =
particularly think Obama is a great orator (because politicians are full =
of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to him than Henry and since he's =
kinda in the news right now, he's my choice for greatest political =
living orator. =A0As far as verbal skills--and not speeches--go, I think =
Steven Colbert is very clever. =A0But he's playing the role of a =
sophist. =A0I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. =
Mencken.
 
=A0
 
~~~~~~~~~~~=A0
 
 

 =

 
On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:

 
 
  
  
Whadaya talking about? There are =
Best and Worst lists published every day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie =
and asks you to grade it one to five:=A0hated it, =
didn't like it,=A0liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their =
computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen =
yet.
 
=A0
 
Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - =
a speech professor if I could find one.
 
=A0
 
You don't like my =
choice, tell=A0us what yours is.
 
=A0
 
Don't you pay =
attention to what people write and how they write it? If you do, you =
must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough to =
beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.
 
=A0
 
Anyone else want to =
take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not=A0Hemingway and it's not =
George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Who's really got =
a handle on our language?
 
=A0
 
C'mon, gang. Who's =
really good at it?
 
=A0
 =

~~~~~~~~~~~=A0
 =

=A0
 
--- On =
Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 =

=A0
 
If you =
agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question. I =
see no=A0value in debating=A0who is or who isn't a better user of the =
English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just=A0dwell joyfully =
in=A0good language when I come across it and not make =
comparisons.

=


 To join or =
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:     =
http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 
 =
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =
     

=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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--Apple-Mail-11-335276479--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:38:31 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Obama: the most articulate American?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1495555973-1227757111=:99571"

Please stop claiming that you agree with me when obviously, you =

--0-1495555973-1227757111=:99571
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brad,=0A=0APlease stop claiming that you agree with me when obviously, you =
don't! =0A=0AFor the record, I'd rather=A0listen to=A0Obama speak than Kiss=
inger. On the other hand, I'd rather listen to Kissinger than Dubbya or Sar=
ah Palin!! On the more than other hand, I'd rather listen to Laurence Olivi=
er than any of these others -- especially if he's speaking words by Shakesp=
eare. If you need someone who's still alive, then Maggie Smith or Alan Rick=
man=A0might get my vote for my "druthers," but know that when I speak of my=
 preferences (which appear to be decidedly British, I suppose), I am NOTcla=
iming anyone is best or even better than the others.=0A=0AFinally, what has=
 any of this discussion got to do with teaching grammar? Let those be my la=
st words on this thread.=0A=0APaul=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________________=
______=0AFrom: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:10:06 PM=0ASubject: Obama: t=
he most articulate American?=0A=0A=0AAnd you weren't listening to Paul and =
Brad.=A0Paul=A0wrote, Brad replied that he agrees with what Paul=A0wrote, a=
nd=A0then Paul=A0added=A0as below.=0A=0ABut that's no never mind. Consider =
this. In "The Audacity of Hope", Barack Obama wrote about Michelle, "Two vi=
sions of herself were at war with each other -- the desire to be the woman =
her mother (had been) was, solid, dependable, making a home and always ther=
e for her kids; and the desire to excel in her profession, to make her mark=
 on the world and realize all those plans she (had) had on the very first d=
ay (that) we met." (From Today's Washington Post.)=0A=0A(On February 14 las=
t, I wrote to the listserv: "In the first twenty-one pages of "The Audacity=
 of Hope", by Barack Obama, c.2006, the word "had" appears 68 times.=A0Of t=
he total, 16 are used correctly as the past tense of the verb "to have" (11=
), or in the past perfect (2), or in the subjunctive (2).=A0Of the 52=A0in =
error, 5 use "had been"' instead of "was" or "were", 13 insert the word 'ha=
d' in front of=A0the wrong form of an irregular verb, and 34 insert the wor=
d "had" in front of a past tense verb.)=0A=0AAs for his speaking articulate=
ness, a dozen people have said to me that Obama is a good teleprompter read=
er, even a great=A0teleprompter reader. Next time he gives a speech on TV, =
watch his head and eyes go from side to side, like a music teacher's metron=
ome, seldom or never=A0looking straight ahead. I have conceded to the dozen=
 that they have a point. Let's keep a sharp lookout.=0A=0AHenry Kissinger h=
as a heavy German accent, having come to this country when he was 13 years =
old, 7 years past the presumed limit=A0for learning another language withou=
t keeping the accent of those at the family dinner table. He's hard to list=
en to but read a transcript of what he says.=0A=0A.brad.26nov08.=0A=0A~~~~~=
~~~~~~=A0=0A=0A--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]
> wrote:=0A=0ABarack Obama. =A0 =0A=0ABut you weren't really listening to P=
aul. =A0When he said he didn't want to play best and worst list games, you =
said you agreed with him. =A0Clearly, you do not agree with him. =A0I don't=
 particularly think Obama is a great orator (because politicians are full o=
f b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to him than Henry and since he's kinda=
 in the news right now, he's my choice for greatest political living orator=
. =A0As far as verbal skills--and not speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert =
is very clever. =A0But he's playing the role of a sophist. =A0I also like M=
ark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. Mencken.=0A=0A~~~~~~~~~~~=A0=0A=0A=0AO=
n Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:=0A=0AWhadaya talking about=
? There are Best and Worst lists published every day. Netflix sends you a D=
VD movie and asks you to grade it one to five:=A0hated it, didn't like it,=
=A0liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their computer tells you what i=
t thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.=0A=A0=0AEvery speech I =
ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech professor if I coul=
d find one.=0A=A0=0AYou don't like my choice, tell=A0us what yours is.=0A=
=A0=0ADon't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? I=
f you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be t=
ough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.=0A=A0=0AAnyone else want=
 to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not=A0Hemingway and it's not=
 George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Who's really got a=
 handle on our language?=0A=A0=0AC'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?=0A=
=A0=0A~~~~~~~~~~~=A0=0A=A0=0A--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]> wrote:=0A=A0=0AIf you agreed with everything I said, then you w=
ouldn't ask such a question. I see no=A0value in debating=A0who is or who i=
sn't a better user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather=
 just=A0dwell joyfully in=A0good language when I come across it and not mak=
e comparisons. =0A =0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the=
 list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and=
 select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.or=
g/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Brad,


 


Please stop claiming that you agree with me when obviously, you don't! 


 


For the record, I'd rather listen to Obama speak than Kissinger. On the other hand, I'd rather listen to Kissinger than Dubbya or Sarah Palin!! On the more than other hand, I'd rather listen to Laurence Olivier than any of these others -- especially if he's speaking words by Shakespeare. If you need someone who's still alive, then Maggie Smith or Alan Rickman might get my vote for my "druthers," but know that when I speak of my preferences (which appear to be decidedly British, I suppose), I am NOTclaiming anyone is best or even better than the others.


 


Finally, what has any of this discussion got to do with teaching grammar? Let those be my last words on this thread.


 


Paul








From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:10:06 PM
Subject: Obama: the most articulate American?













And you weren't listening to Paul and Brad. Paul wrote, Brad replied that he agrees with what Paul wrote, and then Paul added as below.


 


But that's no never mind. Consider this. In "The Audacity of Hope", Barack Obama wrote about Michelle, "Two visions of herself were at war with each other -- the desire to be the woman her mother (had been) was, solid, dependable, making a home and always there for her kids; and the desire to excel in her profession, to make her mark on the world and realize all those plans she (had) had on the very first day (that) we met." (From Today's Washington Post.)


 


(On February 14 last, I wrote to the listserv: "In the first twenty-one pages of "The Audacity of Hope", by Barack Obama, c.2006, the word "had" appears 68 times. Of the total, 16 are used correctly as the past tense of the verb "to have" (11), or in the past perfect (2), or in the subjunctive (2). Of the 52 in error, 5 use "had been"' instead of "was" or "were", 13 insert the word 'had' in front of the wrong form of an irregular verb, and 34 insert the word "had" in front of a past tense verb.)


 


As for his speaking articulateness, a dozen people have said to me that Obama is a good teleprompter reader, even a great teleprompter reader. Next time he gives a speech on TV, watch his head and eyes go from side to side, like a music teacher's metronome, seldom or never looking straight ahead. I have conceded to the dozen that they have a point. Let's keep a sharp lookout.


 


Henry Kissinger has a heavy German accent, having come to this country when he was 13 years old, 7 years past the presumed limit for learning another language without keeping the accent of those at the family dinner table. He's hard to listen to but read a transcript of what he says.


 


.brad.26nov08.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~ 

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


 


Barack Obama.   




But you weren't really listening to Paul.  When he said he didn't want to play best and worst list games, you said you agreed with him.  Clearly, you do not agree with him.  I don't particularly think Obama is a great orator (because politicians are full of b.s.), but since I'd rather listen to him than Henry and since he's kinda in the news right now, he's my choice for greatest political living orator.  As far as verbal skills--and not speeches--go, I think Steven Colbert is very clever.  But he's playing the role of a sophist.  I also like Mark Twain and George Orwell and H.L. Mencken.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~ 









On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:











Whadaya talking about? There are Best and Worst lists published every day. Netflix sends you a DVD movie and asks you to grade it one to five: hated it, didn't like it, liked it, liked it a lot, loved it. Then their computer tells you what it thinks you'll grade a movie you haven't seen yet.


 


Every speech I ever gave I had a critic sitting in the back - a speech professor if I could find one.


 


You don't like my choice, tell us what yours is.


 


Don't you pay attention to what people write and how they write it? If you do, you must think some are better than others. Henry's going to be tough to beat but go ahead and try it. Take a shot.


 


Anyone else want to take a shot and let Paul hunker down? It's not Hemingway and it's not George Bush and it's not Mary Higgins Clark. Who is it? Who's really got a handle on our language?


 


C'mon, gang. Who's really good at it?


 


~~~~~~~~~~~ 


 


--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


 


If you agreed with everything I said, then you wouldn't ask such a question. I see no value in debating who is or who isn't a better user of the English language than Henry Kissinger. I'd rather just dwell joyfully in good language when I come across it and not make comparisons.


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:03:32 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Obama: the most articulate American?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1321929343-1227801812=:21162"

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This just in.
=A0
~~~~
=A0
Yes, Obama is a good teleprompter reader.=A0He also uses one in the middle,=
 when it's there.=A0As for his speech-writing, there's this from a recent N=
Y Times:

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 "Mr. Jon Favreau, 27, has had a hand in practically=A0every=
 speech that Mr. Obama has delivered in the=A0last four years. While many b=
elieve that Mr. Obama writes his own speeches longhand on a legal pad, a be=
tter=A0historical account will show that he offers input and Mr. Favreau ac=
tually writes them."
=A0
In fact, Jon Favreau is to Obama what Ted Sorensen was to JFK.
=A0
~~~~
=A0
Get that turkey in the oven.
=A0
.brad.27nov08.=A0=0A=0A=0A      

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This just in.


 


~~~~


 


Yes, Obama is a good teleprompter reader. He also uses one in the middle, when it's there. As for his speech-writing, there's this from a recent NY Times:

      "Mr. Jon Favreau, 27, has had a hand in practically every speech that Mr. Obama has delivered in the last four years. While many believe that Mr. Obama writes his own speeches longhand on a legal pad, a better historical account will show that he offers input and Mr. Favreau actually writes them."


 


In fact, Jon Favreau is to Obama what Ted Sorensen was to JFK.


 


~~~~


 


Get that turkey in the oven.


 


.brad.27nov08. 



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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:50:40 +0300
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Experimental design help
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Scott,

High IQ and all that... I have done a similar exercise with functionally 
emerging-literate Arab students reading English and am willing to try it 
again, in the interests of science.

I don't have IQ scores for them but I can provide recent TOEFL data. 
Perhaps that can be calibrated to something or other...

Mark


> At 03:12 PM 11/26/2008, Scott Woods wrote:
>> I want to test a technique involving grammar for its effectiveness in 
>> improving reading comprehension.  Please let me know what you think 
>> of my design and if you have any suggestions for related research. . . .
>
> DD: You called? From out of the wood work comes there now a 
> Psychometrician (Retired.) It sounds like a sound design, as 
> presented. However {Ever notice how there is always a caveat?} you are 
> dealing with a rather high end sample.* High IQ and all that. Do the 
> study. Slap it into a Chi Square contingency test and see. Make sure 
> the groups are selected truly randomly. Report the results. I 
> personally think you are doing true science here. A lot rarer than you 
> would think. The null hypothesis is there will not be a significant 
> difference. Fifty fifty. I'd go for the more risky a priori prediction 
> that there will be one in favor of the graphic syntax. That way I get 
> to use a one tail test and that allows significance at a lower level. 
> It is risky, though, because if it turns around and bites YOU on the 
> tail and the normal text group comes out ahead, the experimenter is 
> required to perform a ritual self immolation. We rarely do, though. 
> Just lie and report we did no a priori post hoc corrections. Keep me 
> posted. Fascinating to see a well designed experiment before it is 
> done. Usually the psychometrician just gets a bunch of results and is 
> asked to make sense out of it. {Usually by an attractive graduate 
> student. Blonde preferred.} I suspect that timing will indeed change 
> the results, but that a correlation between speed v extended time will 
> show a high r. Suggestion for future reading - anything by Ohmer 
> Milton. I remain, your faithful friend and joyous companion in 
> original research.
>
> * Ware the regression toward the mean.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web 
> interface at:
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Date:         Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:55:37 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Obama: the most articulate American?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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There's a different account of Obama's speechwriting process at
 http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837368,00.html :
=20
"Obama takes an unusually hands-on approach to his speech writing, more =
so than most politicians. His best writing time comes late at night when =
he's all alone, scribbling on yellow legal pads. He then logs these =
thoughts into his laptop, editing as he goes along....These late-night =
sessions produced long, meandering texts that were then circulated to a =
close group of advisers, including Axelrod and Obama's speechwriter Jon =
Favreau-a 27-year-old wunderkind wordsmith."=20
=20
The difference between the two accounts may be mostly semantic. The NY =
Times article says Obama "offers input and Mr. Favreau actually writes =
[the speeches]"--but where is the line between offering an input and =
writing a rough or partial draft? It would be an interesting question =
for students to think about--since so many students are still used to =
the idea of writing as a solitary enterprise--and the Obama example =
might be useful for sparking discussion.
Brian=20
________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Brad =
Johnston
Sent: Thu 11/27/2008 11:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Obama: the most articulate American?

This just in.
=20
~~~~
=20
Yes, Obama is a good teleprompter reader. He also uses one in the =
middle, when it's there. As for his speech-writing, there's this from a =
recent NY Times:

      "Mr. Jon Favreau, 27, has had a hand in practically every speech =
that Mr. Obama has delivered in the last four years. While many believe =
that Mr. Obama writes his own speeches longhand on a legal pad, a better =
historical account will show that he offers input and Mr. Favreau =
actually writes them."
=20
In fact, Jon Favreau is to Obama what Ted Sorensen was to JFK.
=20
~~~~
=20
Get that turkey in the oven.
=20
.brad.27nov08.=20

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20


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Date:         Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:07:45 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Exhibit #90+ - Schatz Grammar Rules
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Grammar Rules, by Mary S. Schatz, c.2002 by Garlic Press.
=A0
page 171 - Skill Check - Choose the best sentence in each group.
=A0
Her pick.=A0Wrapped in an old shawl, the elderly man carried a smelly fish =
he (had) caught in the river.
=A0
page 172 - Skill Check - Choose the correct word.
=A0
I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished)=A0my homework.
=A0
Her pick.=A0I washed my hair after I (had) finished my homework.
=A0
page 172 - Correct the errors.
=A0
There was a dead whale that had washed up on the beach that caused a nuisan=
ce in a small Oregon town.
=A0
Her correction: A dead whale that (had) washed up on the beach caused=A0 a =
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
=A0
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense verbs, as those words=
=A0are used in the above sentences. The word=A0'had' does not belong in fro=
nt of past tense verbs.
=A0
This is Exhibit #90+ to my assertion that there is at least one past perfec=
t error on any grammar website or in any grammar text=A0you can name.
=A0
.brad.28nov08.
=A0
P.S. Under Misplaced Modifiers she lists, "We need someone to care for Bess=
ie, our cow, who does not smoke or drink".=A0 Isn't that epic?=0A=0A=0A    =

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Grammar Rules, by Mary S. Schatz, c.2002 by Garlic Press.


 


page 171 - Skill Check - Choose the best sentence in each group.


 


Her pick. Wrapped in an old shawl, the elderly man carried a smelly fish he (had) caught in the river.


 


page 172 - Skill Check - Choose the correct word.


 


I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished) my homework.


 


Her pick. I washed my hair after I (had) finished my homework.


 


page 172 - Correct the errors.


 


There was a dead whale that had washed up on the beach that caused a nuisance in a small Oregon town.


 


Her correction: A dead whale that (had) washed up on the beach caused  a nuisance in a small Oregon town.


 


'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had' does not belong in front of past tense verbs.


 


This is Exhibit #90+ to my assertion that there is at least one past perfect error on any grammar website or in any grammar text you can name.


 


.brad.28nov08.


 


P.S. Under Misplaced Modifiers she lists, "We need someone to care for Bessie, our cow, who does not smoke or drink".  Isn't that epic?



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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:39:33 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Experimental design help
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Mark,=20
Would you like me to send you the test?=A0
=A0
Mark, DD, et al.,=20
=A0I don't think my students are as smart as their scores indicate, though =
they are much smarter than a truly random sample of 7th graders.=A0 There i=
s really quite a range, though=A0very few below the=A050th percentile (two,=
 in my group last year of 112, as I recall). I expect that students whose r=
eading percentile scores are lower will=A0present a greater difference betw=
een the control and experimental conditions.=A0 This seemed to be the case =
for the previous test, based on raw scores.=A0 If such a difference is more=
 pronounced in a timed situation, that would seem to validate the experimen=
tal condition as improving how well students understand text.=A0 =A0(Anecdo=
tally, the overwhelming majority of my students report that it is extremely=
 helpful).=20
=A0
An additional experiment would test the influence of extensive practice in =
reading graphic syntax on reading skill.=A0 This experiment would compare t=
he results of a second test with changes in reading skill as measured on a =
standardized test.=A0 My prediction is that after a year of reading difficu=
lt material in graphic syntax, as well as difficult material in normal text=
, reading scores would go up (this would not be a surprising or revealing r=
esult) and the difference between experimental and control performance for=
=A0lower performers whose performance improved would become similar to that=
 of higher performers in the first test=A0(this would be important). I expe=
ct that if good readers are good readers partially because they understand =
syntactic connections better, and consequently are less aided by graphic sy=
ntax, then improving student understanding of syntactic connections by exte=
nsive practice with graphic syntax should improve their reading
 comprehension.=A0 By showing a strong correlation between standardized rea=
ding comprehension scores and the difference between scores on graphic and =
normal text, I should be able to isolate the factor of graphic syntax from =
all the other excellent things I do in the classroom and show that reading =
in graphic syntax format can improve reading comprehension.=20
=A0
Does this make sense? Is it sound?=A0 Is there another way to show that rea=
ding skill can be improved by this method?=A0=20
=A0
Thanks,=20
Scott Woods
=A0
--- On Thu, 11/27/08, MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Experimental design help
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 10:50 AM

Scott,

High IQ and all that... I have done a similar exercise with functionally
emerging-literate Arab students reading English and am willing to try it ag=
ain,
in the interests of science.

I don't have IQ scores for them but I can provide recent TOEFL data.
Perhaps that can be calibrated to something or other...

Mark


> At 03:12 PM 11/26/2008, Scott Woods wrote:
>> I want to test a technique involving grammar for its effectiveness in
improving reading comprehension.  Please let me know what you think of my d=
esign
and if you have any suggestions for related research. . . .
>=20
> DD: You called? From out of the wood work comes there now a
Psychometrician (Retired.) It sounds like a sound design, as presented. How=
ever
{Ever notice how there is always a caveat?} you are dealing with a rather h=
igh
end sample.* High IQ and all that. Do the study. Slap it into a Chi Square
contingency test and see. Make sure the groups are selected truly randomly.
Report the results. I personally think you are doing true science here. A l=
ot
rarer than you would think. The null hypothesis is there will not be a
significant difference. Fifty fifty. I'd go for the more risky a priori
prediction that there will be one in favor of the graphic syntax. That way =
I get
to use a one tail test and that allows significance at a lower level. It is
risky, though, because if it turns around and bites YOU on the tail and the
normal text group comes out ahead, the experimenter is required to perform =
a
ritual self immolation. We rarely do, though. Just lie and report we did no=
 a
priori post hoc corrections. Keep me posted. Fascinating to see a well desi=
gned
experiment before it is done. Usually the psychometrician just gets a bunch=
 of
results and is asked to make sense out of it. {Usually by an attractive gra=
duate
student. Blonde preferred.} I suspect that timing will indeed change the
results, but that a correlation between speed v extended time will show a h=
igh
r. Suggestion for future reading - anything by Ohmer Milton. I remain, your
faithful friend and joyous companion in original research.
>=20
> * Ware the regression toward the mean.
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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at:
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=0A=0A=0A      

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Mark, 


Would you like me to send you the test? 


 


Mark, DD, et al., 


 I don't think my students are as smart as their scores indicate, though they are much smarter than a truly random sample of 7th graders.  There is really quite a range, though very few below the 50th percentile (two, in my group last year of 112, as I recall). I expect that students whose reading percentile scores are lower will present a greater difference between the control and experimental conditions.  This seemed to be the case for the previous test, based on raw scores.  If such a difference is more pronounced in a timed situation, that would seem to validate the experimental condition as improving how well students understand text.   (Anecdotally, the overwhelming majority of my students report that it is extremely helpful). 


 


An additional experiment would test the influence of extensive practice in reading graphic syntax on reading skill.  This experiment would compare the results of a second test with changes in reading skill as measured on a standardized test.  My prediction is that after a year of reading difficult material in graphic syntax, as well as difficult material in normal text, reading scores would go up (this would not be a surprising or revealing result) and the difference between experimental and control performance for lower performers whose performance improved would become similar to that of higher performers in the first test (this would be important). I expect that if good readers are good readers partially because they understand syntactic connections better, and consequently are less aided by graphic syntax, then improving student understanding of syntactic connections by extensive practice with graphic syntax should improve
 their reading comprehension.  By showing a strong correlation between standardized reading comprehension scores and the difference between scores on graphic and normal text, I should be able to isolate the factor of graphic syntax from all the other excellent things I do in the classroom and show that reading in graphic syntax format can improve reading comprehension. 


 


Does this make sense? Is it sound?  Is there another way to show that reading skill can be improved by this method?  


 


Thanks, 


Scott Woods


 


--- On Thu, 11/27/08, MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


From: MC Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Experimental design help
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 10:50 AM

Scott,

High IQ and all that... I have done a similar exercise with functionally
emerging-literate Arab students reading English and am willing to try it again,
in the interests of science.

I don't have IQ scores for them but I can provide recent TOEFL data.
Perhaps that can be calibrated to something or other...

Mark


> At 03:12 PM 11/26/2008, Scott Woods wrote:
>> I want to test a technique involving grammar for its effectiveness in
improving reading comprehension.  Please let me know what you think of my design
and if you have any suggestions for related research. . . .
> 
> DD: You called? From out of the wood work comes there now a
Psychometrician (Retired.) It sounds like a sound design, as presented. However
{Ever notice how there is always a caveat?} you are dealing with a rather high
end sample.* High IQ and all that. Do the study. Slap it into a Chi Square
contingency test and see. Make sure the groups are selected truly randomly.
Report the results. I personally think you are doing true science here. A lot
rarer than you would think. The null hypothesis is there will not be a
significant difference. Fifty fifty. I'd go for the more risky a priori
prediction that there will be one in favor of the graphic syntax. That way I get
to use a one tail test and that allows significance at a lower level. It is
risky, though, because if it turns around and bites YOU on the tail and the
normal text group comes out ahead, the experimenter is required to perform a
ritual self immolation. We rarely do, though. Just lie and report we did no a
priori post hoc corrections. Keep me posted. Fascinating to see a well designed
experiment before it is done. Usually the psychometrician just gets a bunch of
results and is asked to make sense out of it. {Usually by an attractive graduate
student. Blonde preferred.} I suspect that timing will indeed change the
results, but that a correlation between speed v extended time will show a high
r. Suggestion for future reading - anything by Ohmer Milton. I remain, your
faithful friend and joyous companion in original research.
> 
> * Ware the regression toward the mean.
> 
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> 
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:20:17 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Experimental design help
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 08:39 PM 11/28/2008, Scott Woods wrote: . . .
>  I don't think my students are as smart as their scores indicate, . 
> . . I expect that students whose reading percentile scores are 
> lower will present a greater difference between the control and 
> experimental conditions.

DD: Interesting thought. I would expect the higher to profit more. 
Two tail test, then. Null Hypothesis no difference between the two 
groups. However the more interesting item is if the two techniques 
prove different in results, pre experiment and post.

>  This seemed to be the case for the previous test, based on raw 
> scores.  If such a difference is more pronounced in a timed 
> situation, that would seem to validate the experimental condition 
> as improving how well students understand text.   (Anecdotally, the 
> overwhelming majority of my students report that it is extremely helpful).

DD: No, it merely indicates the different result from timed test and 
non timed. Either would indicate the probability of the truth of the 
hypothesis. If both types of test are statistically significant, BRAG.

>
>An additional experiment would test the influence of extensive 
>practice in reading graphic syntax on reading skill.  This 
>experiment would compare the results of a second test with changes 
>in reading skill as measured on a standardized test.

DD: Pre test, post test with both your test and the standardized one, 
and be sure to have that control group that doesn't get the special 
graphic syntax training. Great idea. Ignore the ethical problem of 
not providing the control group with what you feel would help them the most.

>  My prediction is that after a year of reading difficult material 
> in graphic syntax, as well as difficult material in normal text, 
> reading scores would go up (this would not be a surprising or 
> revealing result) and the difference between experimental and 
> control performance for lower performers whose performance improved 
> would become similar to that of higher performers in the first test 
> (this would be important). I expect that if good readers are good 
> readers partially because they understand syntactic connections 
> better, and consequently are less aided by graphic syntax, then 
> improving student understanding of syntactic connections by 
> extensive practice with graphic syntax should improve their reading 
> comprehension.

DD: Tricky, but some good testable hypotheses there. You are on a 
worthy track.

>By showing a strong correlation between standardized reading 
>comprehension scores and the difference between scores on graphic 
>and normal text, I should be able to isolate the factor of graphic 
>syntax from all the other excellent things I do in the classroom and 
>show that reading in graphic syntax format can improve reading comprehension.
>  Does this make sense? Is it sound?

DD: Looks firm to me. Now do it and put it to the empirical test. Does it work?

>Is there another way to show that reading skill can be improved by 
>this method?
>
DD: Probably, but I like what you propose. However don't use the 
phrase, "...show that reading skill can be improved by this method." 
Use, "...test the hypothesis that  reading skill can be improved by 
this method." The words, 'Show' and 'Prove' are trigger words to 
incite criticism from Scientific Methodologists. Not unlike confusion 
between 'reliability' and 'validity' do to statisticians. Keep up the 
good work! 

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Nov 2008 06:28:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Norman Mailer
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marshall.
=A0
I wasn't being cheeky with you (as someone suggested off-list). When one se=
es the word 'had', there are only four possibilities.
=A0
It's the past tense of the verb "to have".
It's used in the past perfect.
It's used in the subjunctive.
It's in error.
=A0
Mailer uses it in all=A0four ways. The ones in the last category, 54 of 98 =
in his case, I called "in error".
=A0

If there is another possibility, I would certainly like to know what it is.
=A0
.brad.29nov08.=A0

~~~~~~~~~~~

On=A011/19/08, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0






Marshall,
=A0
I have wrecked my brain but=A0have not yet thought of a valid reason why 'h=
ad' should appear other than in the three circumstances=A0mentioned. Have y=
ou a suggestion?
=A0
.brad.20nov08.
=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~

On Tue, 11/18/08, Myers, Marshall <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
Brad,=20
=A0=20
How are they in =93error=94?=20
=A0=20
Marshall=20
=A0=20



~~~~~~~~~~~





From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar=20
On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Norman Mailer=20
=A0=20







Of 300+ ATEGians,=A0some few=A0will be interested to know=A0that in the fir=
st 21 pages of "The Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Puli=
tzer in 1980, the word 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correct=
ly as the past tense of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in t=
he subjunctive. The rest (54) are in error.=0A=0A=0A      

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Marshall.


 


I wasn't being cheeky with you (as someone suggested off-list). When o=
ne sees the word 'had', there are only four possibilities.


 


It's the past tense of the verb "to have".


It's used in the past perfect.


It's used in the subjunctive.


It's in error.


 


Mailer uses it in all four ways. The ones in the last category, 5=
4 of 98 in his case, I called "in error".


 




If there is another possibility, I would certainly like to know what i=
t is.


 


.brad.29nov08. 



~~~~~~~~~~~

On=
 11/19/08, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wr=
ote:


 












Marshall,


 


I have wrecked my brain but have not yet thought o=
f a valid reason why 'had' should appear other than in the three circumstan=
ces mentioned. Have you a suggestion?


 


.brad.20nov08.


 


~=
~~~~~~~~~~

On Tue, 11/18/08, Myers, Marshall &=
lt;[log in to unmask]> wrote:


 


Brad, 

  

How are they in =93error=94? 

  

Marshall 

  








~~~~~~~~~~~


<=
/FONT>








From: Assembly fo=
r the Teaching of English Grammar 

On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent:=
 Tuesday, November 18, 2008
To: [log in to unmask]
Su=
bject: Norman Mailer 

  













<=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be=
 interested to know that in the first 21 pages of "The Executioner's S=
ong", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer in 1980, the word 'had' appear=
s 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as the past tense of the verb "t=
o have", or in the past perfect, or in the subjunctive. The rest (54) are i=
n error.

=0A=0A      
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--0-2061229144-1227968895=:11065--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:10:37 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Exhibit #90+ - Schatz Grammar Rules
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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I know I should not do this, but when a person claims great knowledge of =
grammar, it might be time to point out a rather egregious error.

Brad, our expert on "correct" English writes:

'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense verbs, as those =
words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had' does not belong in =
front of past tense verbs.

One of the properties of English is that the past tense form and past =
participle form of many verbs are the same.  Let's consider why this must =
be the case.

Clearly wrote and write are not the same form of the verb write in 1 and =
2.

1) Brad wrote a post.
2 Brad has written a post.

Notice what happens when "not" is inserted.

3) Brad did not write a post.
4) Brad has not written a post.

"not" goes in front of the tense verb in both.  If there is not a helping =
verb, in other words, the past tense form is the only tensed verb, then we =
need a form of do. =20

The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular =
verbs in English, is the same.

5) Brad washed the dishes. =20
6) Brad has washed the dishes.

Insert not in 5 and 6.

7) Brad did not wash the dishes.
8) Brad has not washed the dishes.

Because sentences 7 and 8 pattern the same way as 3 and 4, it seems much =
easier to assume that wash, like write, has two different forms: a past =
tense form and a past participle.  It just so happens that these two forms =
for wash, unlike write, are the same.

If we don't like that solution, then we have to tell a completely =
different story for write as opposed to wash.

By the way, if you want to tell a completely different story for wash, =
then what kind of story do you have to tell for put (or cut or hit)?

9) You now put the dishes away.
10) You put the dishes away yesterday.
11) You have put the dishes away.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri


****
For someone so sure about what is correct and incorrect, it more than a =
little surprising that he cannot keep straight the difference between  =
past tense form of a verb and the past participle form of the verb.





>>> Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> 11/28/08 6:07 PM >>>


Grammar Rules, by Mary S. Schatz, c.2002 by Garlic Press.
=20
page 171 - Skill Check - Choose the best sentence in each group.
=20
Her pick. Wrapped in an old shawl, the elderly man carried a smelly fish =
he (had) caught in the river.
=20
page 172 - Skill Check - Choose the correct word.
=20
I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished) my homework.
=20
Her pick. I washed my hair after I (had) finished my homework.
=20
page 172 - Correct the errors.
=20
There was a dead whale that had washed up on the beach that caused a =
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
=20
Her correction: A dead whale that (had) washed up on the beach caused  a =
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
=20
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense verbs, as those =
words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had' does not belong in =
front of past tense verbs.
=20
This is Exhibit #90+ to my assertion that there is at least one past =
perfect error on any grammar website or in any grammar text you can name.
=20
.brad.28nov08.
=20
P.S. Under Misplaced Modifiers she lists, "We need someone to care for =
Bessie, our cow, who does not smoke or drink".  Isn't that epic?


   =20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:05:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Norman Mailer
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF33B08CAFSEMAILfacult_"
MIME-Version: 1.0

--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF33B08CAFSEMAILfacult_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brad,

I don't think you understand the nature of the tenses, what they signify in=
 terms of time, and how that time is represented.

I'd be happy to work with you on that, if you'll come by my office.

Best wishes,

Dr. Marshall Myers

________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 9:28 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Norman Mailer

Marshall.

I wasn't being cheeky with you (as someone suggested off-list). When one se=
es the word 'had', there are only four possibilities.

It's the past tense of the verb "to have".
It's used in the past perfect.
It's used in the subjunctive.
It's in error.

Mailer uses it in all four ways. The ones in the last category, 54 of 98 in=
 his case, I called "in error".

If there is another possibility, I would certainly like to know what it is.

.brad.29nov08.

~~~~~~~~~~~

On 11/19/08, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Marshall,

I have wrecked my brain but have not yet thought of a valid reason why 'had=
' should appear other than in the three circumstances mentioned. Have you a=
 suggestion?

.brad.20nov08.

~~~~~~~~~~~

On Tue, 11/18/08, Myers, Marshall <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Brad,

How are they in "error"?

Marshall

~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Norman Mailer

Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be interested to know that in the first 21 =
pages of "The Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer i=
n 1980, the word 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as =
the past tense of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in the sub=
junctive. The rest (54) are in error.




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at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
 the list"

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--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF33B08CAFSEMAILfacult_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




















Brad,



 



I don’t think you understand the=
 nature of
the tenses, what they signify in terms of time, and how that time is
represented.



 



I’d be happy to work with you on=
 that, if
you’ll come by my office.



 



Best wishes,<=
/p>


 



Dr. Marshall Myers



 












From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Be=
half
Of Brad Johnston

Sent: Saturday, November 29,=
 2008
9:28 AM

To: [log in to unmask]


Subject: Re: Norman Mailer



 




 

  
  

  
Marshall.

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
I wasn't being cheeky with you (as someone sug=
gested
  off-list). When one sees the word 'had', there are only four possibilitie=
s.

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
It's the past tense of the verb "to have&=
quot;.

  

  

  
It's used in the past perfect.

  

  

  
It's used in the subjunctive.

  

  

  
It's in error.

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
Mailer uses it in all four ways. The ones=
 in
  the last category, 54 of 98 in his case, I called "in error".

  

  

  
 

  

  

  

  
If there is another possibility, I would certa=
inly
  like to know what it is.

  

  

  

  
 

  

  

  
.brad.29nov08. <=
/p>
  

  

  


  ~~~~~~~~~~~

  

  On 11/19/08, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
  wrote:

  

  

  
 

  

  

   

    
    

    

    
Marshall,
    

    

    
 

    

    

    
I have wrecked my brain but have not ye=
t
    thought of a valid reason why 'had' should appear other than in the thr=
ee
    circumstances mentioned. Have you a suggestion?=


    

    

    
 

    

    

    
.brad.20nov08.

    

    

    
 

    

    

    
~~~~~~~~~~~

    

    On Tue, 11/18/08, Myers,
     Marshall
    <[log in to unmask]>
    wrote:

    

    

    
 

    

    
Brad, 

    
  

    
How are they in “error”? 
    
  

    
Marshall 
    
  

    

    

    
~~~~~~~~~~~

    

    

    
 

    

    
From: Assembly
     for the Teaching of English Grammar 
    
On Behalf Of Brad =
Johnston

    Sent: Tuesday, November =
18,
    2008

    To: [log in to unmask]
.EDU

    Subject: Norman Mailer 
    
  

    

     

      
      

      

      
Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be interested to
      know that in the first 21 pages of "The Executioner's
      Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer in 1980, the word
      'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as the past te=
nse
      of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in the
      subjunctive. The rest (54) are in error.

      

      

      		
     

    

    

    		
   

  

  

  		
 







To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leav=
e
the list" 



Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/








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--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF33B08CAFSEMAILfacult_--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Nov 2008 13:01:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Exhibit #90+ - Schatz Grammar Rules
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-175991035-1227992466=:85086"

--0-175991035-1227992466=:85086
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Bob Yates,
=A0
The sentence in question is, I washed my hair after I (finished/had finishe=
d) my homework.
=A0
You didn't say, which doesn't surprise me, but since I think "finished" is =
correct and you wouldn't be writing if you agreed, I assume you think the s=
entence should read, "I washed my hair after I had finished my homework."
=A0
I further said, 'Washed' is a past tense verb as that word is=A0used in the=
=A0sentence. Nota Bene: as that word is used in the sentence.
=A0
Let's see what you say about "washed".
=A0
The past tense form and past participle form of many verbs are the same. Ag=
reed.
=A0
The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular verb=
s in English, is the same. Agreed.

5) Brad washed the dishes.=A0 6) Brad has washed the dishes. Agreed.

Insert 'not' in 5 and 6.

7) Brad did not wash the dishes. 8) Brad has not washed the dishes. Agreed.
=A0
It just so happens that these two forms for wash, unlike write, are the sam=
e. Agreed.
=A0
O.K., Bob, now what? What does this interesting diversion have to do with t=
he Schatz sentence? which is where we started.
=A0
Just for fun, ask all the ATEGians whether...
=A0
...=A0the verb in the sentence is past tense, in which case it will read, I=
 washed my hair after I finished my homework, or,
=A0
...=A0the verb in the sentence is past perfect tense, in which case it will=
 read, I washed my hair after I had finished my homework.
=A0
(I think you'll agree that the word 'washed'=A0is one or the other by virtu=
e of how it functions, not by what other word she may have put in front of =
it.)
=A0
Ask them to reply=A0to you and not to the list. (After two or three replies=
, the list dries up.) See how many of the 330 you can get to vote. And let =
me know.
=A0
I'm sorry you're set for 'plain text'. That tends to make a mess of it. But=
 we'll get by.
=A0
.brad.29nov08.

--- On Sat, 11/29/08, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I know I should not do this, but when a person claims great knowledge of
grammar, it might be time to point out a rather egregious error.

Brad, our expert on "correct" English writes:

'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense
verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had'
does not belong in front of past tense verbs.

One of the properties of English is that the past tense form and past
participle form of many verbs are the same.  Let's consider why this must b=
e
the case.

Clearly wrote and write are not the same form of the verb write in 1 and 2.

1) Brad wrote a post.
2 Brad has written a post.

Notice what happens when "not" is inserted.

3) Brad did not write a post.
4) Brad has not written a post.

"not" goes in front of the tense verb in both.  If there is not a
helping verb, in other words, the past tense form is the only tensed verb, =
then
we need a form of do. =20

The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular verb=
s in
English, is the same.

5) Brad washed the dishes. =20
6) Brad has washed the dishes.

Insert not in 5 and 6.

7) Brad did not wash the dishes.
8) Brad has not washed the dishes.

Because sentences 7 and 8 pattern the same way as 3 and 4, it seems much ea=
sier
to assume that wash, like write, has two different forms: a past tense form=
 and
a past participle.  It just so happens that these two forms for wash, unlik=
e
write, are the same.

If we don't like that solution, then we have to tell a completely different
story for write as opposed to wash.

By the way, if you want to tell a completely different story for wash, then
what kind of story do you have to tell for put (or cut or hit)?

9) You now put the dishes away.
10) You put the dishes away yesterday.
11) You have put the dishes away.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri


****
For someone so sure about what is correct and incorrect, it more than a lit=
tle
surprising that he cannot keep straight the difference between  past tense =
form
of a verb and the past participle form of the verb.


Brad Johnston [log in to unmask]> 11/28/08 6:07 PM

Grammar Rules, by Mary S. Schatz, c.2002 by Garlic Press.
=20
page 171 - Skill Check - Choose the best sentence in each group.
=20
Her pick. Wrapped in an old shawl, the elderly man carried a smelly fish he
(had) caught in the river.
=20
page 172 - Skill Check - Choose the correct word.
=20
I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished) my homework.
=20
Her pick. I washed my hair after I (had) finished my homework.
=20
page 172 - Correct the errors.
=20
There was a dead whale that had washed up on the beach that caused a nuisan=
ce
in a small Oregon town.
=20
Her correction: A dead whale that (had) washed up on the beach caused  a
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
=20
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense
verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had'
does not belong in front of past tense verbs.
=20
This is Exhibit #90+ to my assertion that there is at least one past perfec=
t
error on any grammar website or in any grammar text you can name.
=20
.brad.28nov08.
=0A=0A=0A      

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--0-175991035-1227992466=:85086
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


Dear Bob Yates,


 


The sentence in question is, I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished) my homework.


 


You didn't say, which doesn't surprise me, but since I think "finished" is correct and you wouldn't be writing if you agreed, I assume you think the sentence should read, "I washed my hair after I had finished my homework."


 


I further said, 'Washed' is a past tense verb as that word is used in the sentence. Nota Bene: as that word is used in the sentence.


 


Let's see what you say about "washed".


 


The past tense form and past participle form of many verbs are the same. Agreed.


 


The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular verbs in English, is the same. Agreed.

5) Brad washed the dishes.  6) Brad has washed the dishes. Agreed.

Insert 'not' in 5 and 6.

7) Brad did not wash the dishes. 8) Brad has not washed the dishes. Agreed.


 


It just so happens that these two forms for wash, unlike write, are the same. Agreed.


 


O.K., Bob, now what? What does this interesting diversion have to do with the Schatz sentence? which is where we started.


 


Just for fun, ask all the ATEGians whether...


 


... the verb in the sentence is past tense, in which case it will read, I washed my hair after I finished my homework, or,


 


... the verb in the sentence is past perfect tense, in which case it will read, I washed my hair after I had finished my homework.


 


(I think you'll agree that the word 'washed' is one or the other by virtue of how it functions, not by what other word she may have put in front of it.)


 


Ask them to reply to you and not to the list. (After two or three replies, the list dries up.) See how many of the 330 you can get to vote. And let me know.


 


I'm sorry you're set for 'plain text'. That tends to make a mess of it. But we'll get by.


 


.brad.29nov08.

--- On Sat, 11/29/08, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


I know I should not do this, but when a person claims great knowledge of
grammar, it might be time to point out a rather egregious error.

Brad, our expert on "correct" English writes:

'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense
verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had'
does not belong in front of past tense verbs.

One of the properties of English is that the past tense form and past
participle form of many verbs are the same.  Let's consider why this must be
the case.

Clearly wrote and write are not the same form of the verb write in 1 and 2.

1) Brad wrote a post.
2 Brad has written a post.

Notice what happens when "not" is inserted.

3) Brad did not write a post.
4) Brad has not written a post.

"not" goes in front of the tense verb in both.  If there is not a
helping verb, in other words, the past tense form is the only tensed verb, then
we need a form of do.  

The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular verbs in
English, is the same.

5) Brad washed the dishes.  
6) Brad has washed the dishes.

Insert not in 5 and 6.

7) Brad did not wash the dishes.
8) Brad has not washed the dishes.

Because sentences 7 and 8 pattern the same way as 3 and 4, it seems much easier
to assume that wash, like write, has two different forms: a past tense form and
a past participle.  It just so happens that these two forms for wash, unlike
write, are the same.

If we don't like that solution, then we have to tell a completely different
story for write as opposed to wash.

By the way, if you want to tell a completely different story for wash, then
what kind of story do you have to tell for put (or cut or hit)?

9) You now put the dishes away.
10) You put the dishes away yesterday.
11) You have put the dishes away.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri


****
For someone so sure about what is correct and incorrect, it more than a little
surprising that he cannot keep straight the difference between  past tense form
of a verb and the past participle form of the verb.


Brad Johnston [log in to unmask]> 11/28/08 6:07 PM

Grammar Rules, by Mary S. Schatz, c.2002 by Garlic Press.
 
page 171 - Skill Check - Choose the best sentence in each group.
 
Her pick. Wrapped in an old shawl, the elderly man carried a smelly fish he
(had) caught in the river.
 
page 172 - Skill Check - Choose the correct word.
 
I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished) my homework.
 
Her pick. I washed my hair after I (had) finished my homework.
 
page 172 - Correct the errors.
 
There was a dead whale that had washed up on the beach that caused a nuisance
in a small Oregon town.
 
Her correction: A dead whale that (had) washed up on the beach caused  a
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
 
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense
verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had'
does not belong in front of past tense verbs.
 
This is Exhibit #90+ to my assertion that there is at least one past perfect
error on any grammar website or in any grammar text you can name.
 
.brad.28nov08.




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--0-175991035-1227992466=:85086--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 06:44:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Correct?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              boundary="----=_Part_45628_22177676.1228045473854"

------=_Part_45628_22177676.1228045473854
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?  They
feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct to use
the objective pronouns in these structures?

*I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a pen
and paper.

*I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!

Thanks,
John

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What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?  They feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct to use the objective pronouns in these structures?  

I slipped my backpack off, and we
sat down at one of the metal tables overlooking the pool, him sipping
his Mountain Dew and me groping for a pen and paper.

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!

Thanks,
John

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------=_Part_45628_22177676.1228045473854--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:23:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Correct?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

John,
   I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
   My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
   Hope that helps.

Craig
   >


What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:36:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Correct?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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You are dead on as usual.  I see now that calling them absolutes is a much
more logical analysis.  The possibly understood "with" is great!

Thanks, Craig.
John

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> John,
>   I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
> bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
>   My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
> these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
> as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
> of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
> Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
> "with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
>   Hope that helps.
>
> Craig
>    >
>
>
> What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> > They
> > feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct to
> > use
> > the objective pronouns in these structures?
> >
> > *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> > overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a
> > pen
> > and paper.
> >
> > *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> >      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>

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------=_Part_46127_30984129.1228055804519
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Content-Disposition: inline

You are dead on as usual.  I see now that calling them absolutes is a much more logical analysis.  The possibly understood "with" is great!

Thanks, Craig.
John

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


John,

   I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject

bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)

   My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but

these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of

as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one

of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain

Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with

"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.

   Hope that helps.



Craig


   >





What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?

> They

> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct to

> use

> the objective pronouns in these structures?

>

> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables

> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a

> pen

> and paper.

>

> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!

>

> Thanks,

> John

>


> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface

> at:

>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html

> and select "Join or leave the list"

>

> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

>



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------=_Part_46127_30984129.1228055804519--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:44:54 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Correct?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my earlie=
r comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns.  This is anothe=
r instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on pragmatic r=
oles and marking focus.  Like Craig, I would probably use the subjective fo=
rms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object pronouns in non=
-object position.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

You are dead on as usual.  I see now that calling them absolutes is a much =
more logical analysis.  The possibly understood "with" is great!

Thanks, Craig.
John

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask][log in to unmask]>> wrote:
John,
  I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
  My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
  Hope that helps.

Craig
  >


What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
    http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
 the list"

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:19:09 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Correct?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 08:23 AM 11/30/2008, Craig Hancock {N.B. this was not Craig's 
sentence. He was responding to it.}  wrote:
>. . . "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
>of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
>Dew and me groping for pen and paper." . . .

DD: Try what seems to me to be more correct;  treat the '...ings' as 
gerunds and stick in the possessive pronouns. "...his sipping . . .my 
groping . . ." I am not a skilled grammarian, but it also sounds 
correct to leave out the 'with' and change the pronouns to the 
nominatives as  subjects. ". . .  pool, he sipping . . . I groping . . ."

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:37:59 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Atchley, Clinton" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Correct?
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home."  Here the infinitive "to go" functions as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place.  Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the action of
the infinitive.  It's quite common actually.  "We consider him to be
completely honest."  "The teacher let us decorate the room."  "We left
after seeing him break the record."

Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns.  This
is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
pragmatic roles and marking focus.  Like Craig, I would probably use the
subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
pronouns in non-object position.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

You are dead on as usual.  I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis.  The possibly understood "with" is great!

Thanks, Craig.
John

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
John,
  I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
  My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
  Hope that helps.

Craig
  >


What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct
to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
    http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:38:41 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Richard Wallis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      past-perfect trolling
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="_690230a9-6b12-4c22-adb0-927fff099ba3_"
MIME-Version: 1.0

--_690230a9-6b12-4c22-adb0-927fff099ba3_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






Again I'll state one of the definitions of "trolling": FORCING A DISCUSSION=
 TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRRITATION OF OTHE=
RS=20
=20
Our wind-up troll is at it again. Every time you respond=2C you wind him up=
 to keep the circle spinning.
=20
I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll=2C because such Internet denizens rare=
ly stop of their own accord.
_________________________________________________________________
Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai=
l.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safe=
ty_112008 =

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--_690230a9-6b12-4c22-adb0-927fff099ba3_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable















Again I'll =3Bstate one of the definitions of "trolling": 

FORCI=
NG A DISCUSSION TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRR=
ITATION OF OTHERS 

 =3B

Our wind-up troll is at it again. Every time you respond=2C you wind him up=
 to keep the circle spinning.

 =3B

I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll=2C because such Internet denizens rare=
ly stop of their own accord.

Color coding for safety: Window=
s Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. Sign up today.
=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--_690230a9-6b12-4c22-adb0-927fff099ba3_--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:42:00 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Comments:     RFC822 error:  Invalid RFC822 field - "Paul E. Doniger "If
              this were play'd upon a stag=". Rest of header flushed.
From:         "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: past-perfect trolling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1316727241-1228074120=:98632"

--0-1316727241-1228074120=:98632
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Great advice!=0A=A0=0APaul E. Doniger=0A=A0"If this were play'd upon a stag=
e now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.12=
7-128). =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Richard Wal=
lis <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunda=
y, November 30, 2008 2:38:41 PM=0ASubject: past-perfect trolling=0A=0A=0A=
=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AAgain I'll=A0state one of the d=
efinitions of "trolling": =0A=0AFORCING A DISCUSSION TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLE=
S FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRRITATION OF OTHERS =0A=A0=0AOur wind-up=
 troll is at it again. Every time you respond, you wind him up to keep the =
circle spinning.=0A=A0=0AI suggest ignoring the wind-up troll, because such=
 Internet denizens rarely stop of their own accord.=0A=0A__________________=
______________=0AColor coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you t=
o suspicious email. Sign up today. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, ple=
ase visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/=
ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at h=
ttp://ateg.org/

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--0-1316727241-1228074120=:98632
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii




Great advice!


 


Paul E. Doniger


 
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).










From: Richard Wallis <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:38:41 PM
Subject: past-perfect trolling










Again I'll state one of the definitions of "trolling": 

FORCING A DISCUSSION TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRRITATION OF OTHERS 
 
Our wind-up troll is at it again. Every time you respond, you wind him up to keep the circle spinning.
 
I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll, because such Internet denizens rarely stop of their own accord.




Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. Sign up today. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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--0-1316727241-1228074120=:98632--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:15:56 -0800
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Correct?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1037560375-1228094156=:84175"

--0-1037560375-1228094156=:84175
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=A0
What would be the negative implications, pedagogically, analytically, or ot=
herwise, with 7th graders, of treating sentences like "We wanted him to go =
home" as containing a direct object and an object complement, rather than u=
sing the infinitive as the direct object in the same way we might analyze "=
We elected him president" ?=A0 Also, is it a faulty analysis to think of ab=
solutes as containing an implied "be," the lack of which makes them a claus=
e, and the insertion of which is a test for being an absolute?=A0 That is, =
are absolutes basically clauses with the "be" dropped?
=A0
Scott Woods

--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:37 AM

In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home."  Here the infinitive "to go" functions
as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place.  Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the
action of
the infinitive.  It's quite common actually.  "We consider him to be
completely honest."  "The teacher let us decorate the room."=20
"We left
after seeing him break the record."

Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns.  This
is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
pragmatic roles and marking focus.  Like Craig, I would probably use the
subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
pronouns in non-object position.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

You are dead on as usual.  I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis.  The possibly understood "with" is great!

Thanks, Craig.
John

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
John,
  I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as
subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
  My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the
subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought
of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
  Hope that helps.

Craig
  >


What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct
to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"

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=0A=0A=0A      

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--0-1037560375-1228094156=:84175
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


 


What would be the negative implications, pedagogically, analytically, or otherwise, with 7th graders, of treating sentences like "We wanted him to go home" as containing a direct object and an object complement, rather than using the infinitive as the direct object in the same way we might analyze "We elected him president" ?  Also, is it a faulty analysis to think of absolutes as containing an implied "be," the lack of which makes them a clause, and the insertion of which is a test for being an absolute?  That is, are absolutes basically clauses with the "be" dropped?


 


Scott Woods



--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


From: Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:37 AM

In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home."  Here the infinitive "to go" functions
as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place.  Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the
action of
the infinitive.  It's quite common actually.  "We consider him to be
completely honest."  "The teacher let us decorate the room." 
"We left
after seeing him break the record."

Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask] 
Web:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec 

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns.  This
is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
pragmatic roles and marking focus.  Like Craig, I would probably use the
subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
pronouns in non-object position.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

You are dead on as usual.  I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis.  The possibly understood "with" is great!

Thanks, Craig.
John

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
John,
  I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as
subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
  My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the
subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought
of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
  Hope that helps.

Craig
  >


What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct
to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:08:06 -0600
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: past-perfect trolling
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="_d727ea66-a7bf-40a1-bdf2-ba584ac04d01_"
MIME-Version: 1.0

--_d727ea66-a7bf-40a1-bdf2-ba584ac04d01_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


And let the congregation say=2C "Amen!"Geoff Layton

Date: Sun=2C 30 Nov 2008 11:42:00 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: Re: =
past-perfect trollingTo: [log in to unmask]




Great advice!
=20
Paul E. Doniger
 "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an improbab=
le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20




From: Richard Wallis <[log in to unmask]>To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday=2C November 30=2C 2008 2:38:41 PMSubject: past-perfect trollin=
g



Again I'll state one of the definitions of "trolling": FORCING A DISCUSSION=
 TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE IRRITATION OF OTHE=
RS  Our wind-up troll is at it again. Every time you respond=2C you wind hi=
m up to keep the circle spinning. I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll=2C b=
ecause such Internet denizens rarely stop of their own accord.

Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai=
l. Sign up today. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the l=
ist's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and s=
elect "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_________________________________________________________________
Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the =93I=92m a PC=94 Messenger t=
hemepack now.
hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/=

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And let the congregation say=2C "Amen!"

Geoff Layton






Date: Sun=2C 30 Nov 2008 11:42:00 -0800
From: [log in to unmask]
Subje=
ct: Re: past-perfect trolling
To: [log in to unmask]









Great advice!

 =3B

Paul E. Doniger


 =3B
"If this were play'd upon a stage =
now=2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.12=
7-128).=20










From: Richard Wallis <=3B=
[log in to unmask]>=3B
To:<=
/SPAN> [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday=2C November 30=2C 2008 2:38:41 PM
Subject: past-perfect trolling










Again I'll =3Bstate one of the definitions of "trolling": 

F=
ORCING A DISCUSSION TO GO AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR ONE'S OWN AMUSEMENT AND THE=
 IRRITATION OF OTHERS 
 =3B
Our wind-up troll is at it again. Eve=
ry time you respond=2C you wind him up to keep the circle spinning.
&nbs=
p=3B
I suggest ignoring the wind-up troll=2C because such Internet deniz=
ens rarely stop of their own accord.




Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai=
l. Sign up today. To join or leave=
 this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://lis=
tserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or l=
eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=
=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

Proud to be a PC? =
Show the world. Download the =93I=92m a PC=94 Messenger themepack now. Do=
wnload now.
=
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:39:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Correct?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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John and Craig,

In his essay "In Defense of the Absolute," Francis Christensen mentions that
"with" can begin an absolute phrase. He calls it an "empty" word, and
elsewhere calls it a "marker" of the absolute. It can be deleted, and you
still have the absolute phrase. It is especially useful to alert the reader
when it begins the sentence.

With the newcomers hopeless and forlorn, and the old team worn out by
twenty-five hundred miles of continuous trail, the outlook was anything but
bright. [Jack London]


Christensen also gives credit to Curme
for recognizing that in popular speech, especially in Irish, the
construction is sometimes introduced by "and" ("Did you not hear his
reverence, and he speaking to you now?" [Synge]) and that in this
construction, as elsewhere in popular speech, the nominative is
often replaced by the accusative ("It will be a very good match for
me, m'm, me being an orphan girl" [Wells]).

-- 
Don Stewart
Write for College
______________________
Keeper of the memory and method
of Dr. Francis Christensen

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
> when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
> wanted him to go home."  Here the infinitive "to go" functions as the
> direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
> place.  Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the action of
> the infinitive.  It's quite common actually.  "We consider him to be
> completely honest."  "The teacher let us decorate the room."  "We left
> after seeing him break the record."
>
> Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English
> Box 7652
> 1100 Henderson Street
> Henderson State University
> Arkadelphia, AR  71999
> Phone: 870.230.5276
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Web:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Correct?
>
> I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
> earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns.  This
> is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
> pragmatic roles and marking focus.  Like Craig, I would probably use the
> subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
> pronouns in non-object position.
>
> Herb
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN  47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Correct?
>
> You are dead on as usual.  I see now that calling them absolutes is a
> much more logical analysis.  The possibly understood "with" is great!
>
> Thanks, Craig.
> John
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> John,
>  I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as subject
> bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
>  My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the subject roles, but
> these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought of
> as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
> of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
> Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
> "with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
>  Hope that helps.
>
> Craig
>  >
>
>
> What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> > They
> > feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct
> to
> > use
> > the objective pronouns in these structures?
> >
> > *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> > overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
> a
> > pen
> > and paper.
> >
> > *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> >      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
>    http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>



-- 
Don Stewart
Write for College
______________________
Keeper of the memory and method
of Dr. Francis Christensen

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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------=_Part_55024_4311093.1228095543404
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

John and Craig,

In his essay "In Defense of the Absolute,"
Francis Christensen mentions that "with" can begin an absolute phrase.
He calls it an "empty" word, and elsewhere calls it a "marker" of the
absolute. It can be deleted, and you still have the absolute phrase. It is especially useful to alert the reader when it begins the sentence. 

With the newcomers hopeless and forlorn, and the old team worn out by twenty-five hundred miles of continuous trail, the outlook was anything but bright. [Jack London]





Christensen also gives credit to Curme
for recognizing that in popular speech, especially in Irish, the

construction is sometimes introduced by "and" ("Did you not hear his

reverence, and he speaking to you now?" [Synge]) and that in this

construction, as elsewhere in popular speech, the nominative is

often replaced by the accusative ("It will be a very good match for
me, m'm, me being an orphan girl" [Wells]).


-- 

Don Stewart

Write for College

______________________ 

Keeper of the memory and method 

of Dr. Francis Christensen

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns

when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill

wanted him to go home."  Here the infinitive "to go" functions as the

direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take

place.  Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the action of

the infinitive.  It's quite common actually.  "We consider him to be

completely honest."  "The teacher let us decorate the room."  "We left

after seeing him break the record."



Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of English

Box 7652

1100 Henderson Street

Henderson State University

Arkadelphia, AR  71999

Phone: 870.230.5276

Email: [log in to unmask]

Web:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec




-----Original Message-----

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:46:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
              <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Correct?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

If you confine yourself, as most texts as well as the Quirk et al. grammar =
do, then you'll probably find something like an SVOO pattern and an SVOC pa=
ttern.  The former is for ditransitives.  The latter covers complex transit=
ives, or object complement constructions.  Because these models of grammar =
do not involve derivation, object + infinitive constructions will fall into=
 this pattern as well.  So, yes, "we wanted him to go home" and "we elected=
 him president" have the same pattern.  As to the treatment of nominative a=
bsolutes as containing an implied "be," you're right.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Scott Woods [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 8:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

What would be the negative implications, pedagogically, analytically, or ot=
herwise, with 7th graders, of treating sentences like "We wanted him to go =
home" as containing a direct object and an object complement, rather than u=
sing the infinitive as the direct object in the same way we might analyze "=
We elected him president" ?  Also, is it a faulty analysis to think of abso=
lutes as containing an implied "be," the lack of which makes them a clause,=
 and the insertion of which is a test for being an absolute?  That is, are =
absolutes basically clauses with the "be" dropped?

Scott Woods

--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Correct?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:37 AM


In traditional grammar you find a similar use of objective case pronouns
when they function as subjects of infinitives in a sentence like "Bill
wanted him to go home."  Here the infinitive "to go" functions
as the
direct object since what Bill wanted was the action of going to take
place.  Bill does not want "him"; "him" is the agent of the
action of
the infinitive.  It's quite common actually.  "We consider him to be
completely honest."  "The teacher let us decorate the room."
"We left
after seeing him break the record."

Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR  71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web:  http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

I agree that they are nominative absolutes, but I'll follow up on my
earlier comment on changes in the function of objective pronouns.  This
is another instance of what were traditionally object pronouns taking on
pragmatic roles and marking focus.  Like Craig, I would probably use the
subjective forms, but these are among the more acceptable uses of object
pronouns in non-object position.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: November 30, 2008 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Correct?

You are dead on as usual.  I see now that calling them absolutes is a
much more logical analysis.  The possibly understood "with" is great!

Thanks, Craig.
John

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
John,
  I would classify them as "absolutes", which I would define as
subject
bearing participle clauses. (Traditional grammar calls them phrases.)
  My own preference would be for "he" and "I" in the
subject roles, but
these are also commonly introduced by "with", which could be thought
of
as understood here. "I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one
of the metal tables overlooking the pool, with him sipping his Mountain
Dew and me groping for pen and paper." Maybe the writer drafted it with
"with" and then took it out, leaving the objective pronouns.
  Hope that helps.

Craig
  >


What are the structures appended to the end of the main clause below?
> They
> feel like participles, but they have pseudo-subjects.  Is it correct
to
> use
> the objective pronouns in these structures?
>
> *I slipped my backpack off, and we sat down at one of the metal tables
> overlooking the pool, him sipping his Mountain Dew and me groping for
a
> pen
> and paper.
>
> *I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
    http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
 the list"

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