My view is quite different - I find the discussion between Craig and Bob greatly edifying.  Rather than a warm general discussion addressed to the general list, this heated discussion has also produced much light indeed.  Although it may not rise to the heights of the Bartholomae-Elbow discussions, I am hopeful that Bob and Craig keep at it.

Geoff Layton

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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:53:27 -0600
From: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Quick note on education and linguistic theory (was RE: Correct)
To: [log in to unmask]

Bob, I value the things you have to say on this list about grammar and writing. I also very much value the things that Craig has contributed about grammar, writing, and language in general.

 

Perhaps it would be more valuable to everyone on the list if all posters made an effort to address a general audience instead of parrying back and forth with an individual. Even if responding to a specific member's question, a poster could form a response that takes into account the wide and diverse audience that will receive that response.

 

I extract a great deal of helpful insights from posts about all approaches to grammar--functional, traditional, generative, and yes, even cognitive. However, as the exchange between you and Craig continues, I draw less and less from the conversation. (I don't say this to single you out--such exchanges are certainly not exclusive to this situation.) I think that all we need to do is present our case and let the information speak for itself. My feeling is that this list is for sharing points, not proving them.

 

Also, as a side note, many people, including myself, read and/or participate in this listserv because they are interested in many topics, including, but not isolated to, student writing.

 

I look forward to reading more thoughtful posts for everyone's benefit and less cage matches of theoretical wits.

 

John Alexander

Austin, Texas

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Craig,

You write statements about theories of grammar that you really haven't examined yourself.

More seriously, you write things like the following:

  Cognitive grammar may be easy to disdain if you try to reduce it to
some sort of shallow position. You should learn about it first and then
measure it later. It is not very likely that will happen because you
clearly are satisfied with a formal approach and not at all open to
other possibilities, which you seem poised to attack, not curious about
understanding. My main concern about that is that it will shut off talk
on list and deny us the chance to explore alternative approaches.
  People have taken the time to privately tell me they want me to
continue. If that's not a widespread view, I'll stop.

You have no idea what I have read and haven't read.  My concern, and I assume the concern of everyone on this list,
 is trying to understand the development of writing.

I have tried to share how my understanding of language helps me to understand how developing writers do what they do.

As best as I remember, your claims about cognitive grammar rest on the claim it is an alternative to formal approaches.  I would expect someday to read how assumptions of cognitive grammar help teachers understand why their students do what they do.  So far, your contributions here rest at such a high level of generality I have no idea what insights cognitive grammar provides to teachers.

Of course, we agree on the following:

  Where you and I agree, I think, (we should do that more, by the way),
is that language users will use structures awkwardly when they are
first using them.

But I go further.  Developing writers, either for lack of knowledge or constraints on cognitive capacity, not only use "structures awkwardly" but create innovative structures.  Mixed constructions, from the writer's perspective, are not a "performance error" but the result of various principles.  Jim Kenkel and I have several papers describing what those principles are to explain various innovative structures in developing writer texts.  As I noted in my last post, you teach where the student is and not where you think this student should be.

Complex noun phrases in the SUBJECT position show up late for a variety of reasons and anything you cite from a cognitive or functional perspective would be the same as from an innate perspective.  Jim Kenkel and I have tried to use this fact for understanding why a writer produces mixed constructions.

  The fact that complex noun phrases don't show up until 11 or 12 may be
easier to explain from a cognitive or functional position than it would
from an innatist view. Functional grammar, in fact, makes a great deal
of that. They are certainly far more prevalent in writing than they are
in speech, very important in the technical disciplines, and they make
large cognitive demands on the language user.
. . .
  Cognitive grammar is not going to go away, even if I explain it
awkwardly or if you explain why you have reservations about it.
****

Again, please understand my comments here.  If cognitive grammar must  be considered, then provide us with specifics on how it is useful in understanding what developing writers do.  It is the lack of specificity in your claims (and this post is one more example), that leads me to write what I do.

Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri

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