Craig's comment on writing and grammar sent me back to the late fifties and early sixties, those heady years when some of us English teachers believed that linguistic science might actually have an impact on the teaching of English in our secondary schools. I myself was involved in some research which attempted---in part---to measure whether the teaching of grammar had any effect on student writing ability. In connection with that research, we did an enormous amount of testing of our high school students. We designed a 98-item test of attitudes toward grammar and writing and constructed what I thought was a wonderful test of grammatical knowledge. I am so sorry that I have copies of neither, but here is one thing we learned, quoted from an article I published in 1962: In our own eleventh grade classes we found that our students averaged only 45.4 percent correct on a traditional grammar test and that 85 percent found grammar lessons neither pleasant nor interesting. I was teaching at that time in Cheltenham High School, a public school in the suburbs of Philadelphia; it was an excellent public school by almost any measure, located in a community of privilege. In fact, it was one of the schools that participated in the famous "Eight Year Study." As for the effect of grammar on writing ability, one might look at an article by Lena Suggs, published in the March 1961 English Journal, entitled "Structural Grammar versus Traditional Grammar in Influencing Writing." (My own research did not focus mainly on that issue, but we did measure it.) I do not recall what Ms. Suggs found, but I'm sure I read her article at the time. Nevertheless, in 1962, I wrote There is, unfortunately, very little evidence that the study of either the new or the traditional grammar improves student writing. Now, I am sure that neither my research nor Ms. Suggs' would measure up to strict scientific standards, but I will say as a person who was deeply involved in such research that it involves an ENORMOUS amount of work, even to do a one-year study. And on the topic of needed research, how about a study to measure whether the freshman comp course improves student writing? I once suggested such a study to my department chairman, with details as to how it might be done. He shot me down in less than the time it takes to pass from one class to another. I am not a cynic, and I am not trying to discourage anyone. I'm just trying to contribute a little past history to the discussion. Ed Schuster To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/