Scott, I'm not sure about "normal", but your rule is broken enough by our best writers to be called into question. Just flipping open a page, I find this from D.H. Lawrence: "He stood on the bank, breathing heavily." Cleaqrlhy, it's not the bank breathing. Flipping to another page, this from Tim O'Brien: "As they waited, the men smoked and drank Kool-Aid, not talking much, feeling sympathy for Lee Strunck but also feeling the luck of the draw." It's not the Kool-Aid that's talking or feeling. In a subject bearing clause, also, the participle is not acting like a normal participle, though I know that can seem elusive. If it was, then the lack of a comma would make it restrictivce, helping us identoify which one we were talking about. "I saw the boy being such a pig." "Which boy did you see?" This question might presuppose that "being such a pig" allows us to identify which boy, especially since the lack of a comma would make it restrictive. But clearly it doesn't. We are not saying somehting like "I saw the boy being a pig, but the boy behaving nicely was outside my vision." "What did you see the boy doing?" is a much more natural question. "I saw him being such a pig." Which car should I get? "Get the car sitting in the driveway." Clearly a restrictive modifier. "How do you know the car wasn't involved in the robbery? "I saw the car sitting in the driveway." It's clearly a different kind of meaning, especially since which car is already clear in the context. Craig > To me the sentence is not ambiguous: had I been the one fishing, I would > have said "Fishing from the pier, I admired him." Note that many dangling > particles result from the violation of the rule that I am giving. Driving > down the street, a pedestrian was hit. The participle normally refers to > the closest noun or pronoun. > > I did not select a "perception" because I wished to show the inaccuracy > of "I admired him fishing." as opposed to "I admired his fishing." > > Scott Catledge > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest > system > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:04 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: ATEG Digest - 15 Dec 2008 - Special issue (#2008-267) > > There are 2 messages totalling 12391 lines in this issue. > > Topics in this special issue: > > 1. ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) (2) > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:10:50 -0500 > From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) > > Scott, > A good conservative is hugely valuable. Conservation ought to be close > kin (though today's conservatives may just now be coming back to that.) > Your first sentence is mildly ambigious. It's not clear who's fishing. > "He could bring a boat in with the best of them. I admired him, fishing > from the pier." > "Admire" is not a perception verb, so it does act differently. We can't > say, for example "I admired him fish from a pier." But we can say "I > saw him fish from a pier." And i don't thihnk anyone would say "I saw > his fish from the pier" unless it was an actual fish and not an action. > I don't think it violates conservative principles to fine-tune our > observations about how the language works. In this caase, it's just an > observation that perception verbs carry with them a different kind of > grammar. > As lovers of language, we have much in common. > > Craig > >> I admired him, fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "him." >> I admired his fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "fishing." >> >> Scott Catledge >> >> I am pleased with my being labeled "conservative." I would not deny >> my being labeled archconservative. I have never forgotten that >> conservative >> and conservation are close kin. I wish to conserve clear and precise >> language. I do not see language as static: I cannot speak Anglo-Saxon >> nor >> do I need to unless I am teaching HEL. I had a director who was fond of >> constantly reiterating that all progress is change. Regardless of the >> physical or social context, I always reminded him out loud that all >> change >> is not progress. I often see a need for new words; I do not see the >> need >> for new pronunciations of words nor for new syntax. >> My ex-wife always said /fore-head/. >> >> I always responded: >> There was a little girl and she had a little curl >> Right in the middle of her /fore-head/ >> When she was good, she was very, very good. >> When she was bad she was /hore-head/. >> My kids quickly caught on to my pronunciation /for-rid/. >> >> My grandchildren and my greatgrandchildren do not use my grammar and >> syntax. >> Why should they? Their teachers do not teach grammar--they know no >> grammar >> to teach. Moreover, it is politically incorrect to prefer one style >> over >> any other. If it can be spoken, it must be correct to that child's peer >> group--and that it the only important guideline for language. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest >> system >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:00 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) >> >> There are 13 messages totalling 4404 lines in this issue. >> >> Topics of the day: >> >> 1. Clause or Phrase (5) >> 2. Conservatives! >> 3. Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) (6) >> 4. scope and sequence: was clause or phrase >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:34:50 -0800 >> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> --0-64264188-1229240090=:87409 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> =A0 >> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated >> correct= >> ly? >> =A0 >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig. >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so >> greedily. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a >> pig. >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a >> duplic= >> itous boy. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig. >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior. >> =A0 >> Scott Woods >> =A0 >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30 PM >> >> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote: >>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a >>> pig. >> . . . >> >> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."=20 >> Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of >> "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the >> mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If >> the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action >> followi= >> ng a >> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma >> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that >> if >> you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and >> th= >> e >> gerund connection is ignored. >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> =0A=0A=0A >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> --0-64264188-1229240090=:87409 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >> >> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" >> style="font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV> >> <DIV>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated >> correctly?</DIV> >> <DIV> </DIV> >> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a >> pig.</DIV> >> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so >> greedily.<BR></DIV> >> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such >> a >> pig.</DIV> >> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such >> a >> duplicitous boy.<BR></DIV> >> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a >> pig.</DIV> >> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad >> behavior.</DIV> >> <DIV> </DIV> >> <DIV>Scott Woods</DIV> >> <DIV> </DIV> >> <DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms >> <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV> >> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: >> rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: DD Farms >> <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<BR>To: >> [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30 >> PM<BR><BR><PRE>At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote: >> > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a >> pig. >> . . . >> >> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that." >> Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of >> "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the >> mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If >> the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action >> following a >> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma >> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that >> if >> you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and >> the >> gerund connection is ignored. >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --0-64264188-1229240090=:87409-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:20:24 -0500 >> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Conservatives! >> >> Bob, >> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I >> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators. >> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a >> bad name. >> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list >> is >> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something, >> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are >> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat >> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that >> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should >> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group. >> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder >> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a >> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out >> there? >> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also >> try >> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward >> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG. >> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup. >> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are >> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I >> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of >> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do >> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much >> more friendly to applications in reading and writing. >> >> Craig> >> >> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that >> disagree >>> with your own! >>> >>> Craig writes: >>> >>> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, >>> but >>> ATEG has long been an organization made >>> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long >>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested >>> in >>> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the >>> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most. >>> >>> **** >>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with >>> the >>> term "fairly conservative." >>> >>> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the >>> nature >>> of language. >>> >>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:38:40 -0500 >> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> Herb, >> Nice analysis. Not sure why I missed it, especially since John asked >> for a functional analysis, and this is something very clearly presented >> in Halliday. >> I like to use these kinds of pairings to show the distinction: >> "I saw his slow landing on the river." >> "I saw him landing/land slowly on the river." >> >> "I watched his painful demise from cancer." >> "I watched him dying/die painfully from cancer." >> >> If,in fact, these participle structures (or infinitive >> structures)often bear subjects (as seems true in the second sentence >> of each pair), that's another argument for calling them clauses. The >> only thing missing is the finite. >> >> What we perceive is often a happening or process, so it makes sense >> that we can construe it in that way. >> >> As you say, finding and discovering verbs work a little differently. >> >> Craig> >> >> >> Why not a third analysis? "being" as a participle, as in "I found him >>> fishing in the White River." ""See" allows all three constructions. >>> "Find" does not. Other perception verbs allow the participial >>> construction as well: >>> >>> I felt the breeze blowing on my back. >>> I smelled the paper burning. >>> I heard the sirens blaring as the fire trucks went by. >>> >>> Herb >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms >>> Sent: 2008-12-13 01:31 >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >>> >>> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote: >>>>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a >>>> pig. >>> . . . >>> >>> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, >>> "that." Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use >>> of "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the mother saw, >>> then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If the emphasis >>> is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action following a >>> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma >>> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think >>> that if you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the >>> possessive and the gerund connection is ignored. >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800 >> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> --0-35116534-1229272083=:41507 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the >> past= >> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers=A0have >> comm= >> ented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have >> experienced >> = >> (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the >> time >> o= >> r the interest=A0to=A0get involved in the conversation (indeed, may >> don't >> s= >> eem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too >> many= >> other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues >> as >> = >> I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my >> long >> = >> silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And >> wit= >> h the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it >> doesn't= >> look like this will change at any time soon.=0A=A0=0AAlso, I think most >> uf= >> us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that >> the >> i= >> ssues of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) >> should >> = >> have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that >> unless= >> elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically >> into >> = >> this conversation, change can't happen.=0A=A0=0AWhat are your thoughts & >> ex= >> periences? =0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=0A=A0"If this were play'd upon a stage >> now, >> = >> I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ >> 3.4.127-128).= >> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Craig Hancock >> <han= >> [log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunday, December >> 14= >> , 2008 9:20:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: Conservatives!=0A=0ABob,=0A=A0 I agree >> wit= >> h some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I=0Adon't like >> the= >> views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.=0AThis sort of >> respon= >> se doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a=0Abad name.=0A=A0 >> ATEG >> i= >> s a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list >> is=0Aabout >> = >> whether something is "correct" or about how to classify >> something,=0Ausuall= >> y using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you >> are=0Ainteres= >> ted in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat=0Alonely. >> It'= >> s not just that people disagree with those views, but that=0Athere's not >> th= >> e sort of robust discussion about them that there should=0Abe on a >> grammar >> = >> list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.=0A=A0 If that's the case, >> it= >> would make sense that many people would wonder=0Awhy we need a scope >> and >> s= >> equence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a=0Amatter of just getting >> endo= >> rsement for the gramamr that's already out=0Athere?=0A=A0 I don't agree >> wit= >> h that position, but I can respect it. I can also try=0Ato understand >> the >> n= >> ature of the difficulties involved in moving forward=0Awith a scope and >> seq= >> uence throught ATEG.=0A=A0 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE >> su= >> bgroup.=0A=A0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr >> that= >> are=0Aalready somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) >> Frankl= >> y, I=0Athink we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching >> of= >> =0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to >> do=0Ath= >> at. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so >> much=0Amore >> f= >> riendly to applications in reading and writing.=0A=0ACraig>=0A=0AWhat >> an=A0= >> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree=0A> >> with >> = >> your own!=0A>=0A> Craig writes:=0A>=0A> My own tendency has been to >> lobby >> f= >> or new=A0 ways of looking at grammar, but=0A> ATEG has long been an >> organiz= >> ation made=0A> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, >> not >> b= >> y a long=0A> shot) views.=A0 This was hard on me because I felt I had a >> lot= >> invested in=0A> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the >> conve= >> rsation the=0A> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the >> most.=0A>= >> =0A> ****=0A> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others >> vie= >> ws with the=0A> term "fairly conservative."=0A>=0A> Craig, I appreciate >> suc= >> h an honest appraisal of others views of the nature=0A> of >> language.=0A>=0A= >>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri=0A>=0A> To join or leave this >>> L= >> ISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=0A> at:=0A>=A0 =A0 >> =A0 >> = >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> and select "Join or >> leave= >> the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A>=0A=0ATo >> jo= >> in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at:= >> =0A=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select >> "Join= >> or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> --0-35116534-1229272083=:41507 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >> >> <html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} >> --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:bookman old style, new >> york, >> times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV> >> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana>This reminds me of the rather curious >> observations >> I >> have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English >> teaching peers have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that >> their students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience >> of). >> Yet few of them have the time or the interest to get involved >> in >> the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation >> even >> exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and >> interests >> to >> devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more >> involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack >> of >> interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers >> increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this will >> change >> at >> any time soon.</FONT></DIV> >> <P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P> >> <P><FONT face=Verdana>Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level >> seem >> to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they >> see >> as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in >> elementary >> and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school >> teachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation, change >> can't >> happen.</FONT></P> >> <P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P> >> <P><FONT face=Verdana>What are your thoughts & experiences? >> </FONT></P> >> <P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P> >> <P><FONT face=Verdana>Paul D.</FONT></P> >> <DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT size=2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, >> I >> could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ >> 3.4.127-128).</FONT> >> <DIV><BR></DIV> >> <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, >> times, serif"><BR> >> <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, >> times, serif"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2> >> <HR SIZE=1> >> <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock >> <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN >> style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 >> 9:20:24 >> AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: >> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR> I agree with some >> conservatives >> much more than I agree with others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar >> typical of "progressive" educators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't >> help. >> I >> don't think "conservative" is a<BR>bad name.<BR> ATEG is a >> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is<BR>about >> whether something is "correct" or about how to classify >> something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as the >> lens. >> If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can >> feel >> somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, >> but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that >> there >> should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative >> group.<BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many >> people >> would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already >> exist? >> Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's >> already out<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I >> can >> respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the >> difficulties >> involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught >> ATEG.<BR> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE >> subgroup.<BR> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on >> gramamr >> that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is >> not.) >> Frankly, I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to the >> teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily >> have >> to do<BR>that. A great >> deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly >> to >> applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What >> an >> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree<BR>> >> with your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own >> tendency >> has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>> >> ATEG >> has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly >> conservative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. >> This >> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the >> project, >> but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new >> possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>> >> ****<BR>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others >> views >> with the<BR>> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I >> appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the >> nature<BR>> >> of >> language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central >> Missouri<BR>><BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >> visit >> the list's web interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A >> href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> >> and >> select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at >> <A >> href="http://ateg.org/" >> target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To >> join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at:<BR> <A >> href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and >> select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A >> href="http://ateg.org/" >> target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> --0-35116534-1229272083=:41507-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:58:43 -0600 >> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_ >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in >> context"= >> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the >> same= >> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name >> - >> = >> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar >> in= >> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't >> know= >> their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how >> to= >> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning >> that= >> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the >> prev= >> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of >> basic >> w= >> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties >> dealing >> = >> with these problems.Geoff Layton >> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: >> Re: >> = >> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: >> [log in to unmask] >> HIO.EDU >> >> >> >> >> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the >> past= >> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have >> commen= >> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced >> (o= >> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time >> or >> = >> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't >> seem >> = >> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many >> oth= >> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I >> wo= >> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long >> sile= >> nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And >> with >> = >> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it >> doesn't= >> look like this will change at any time soon. >> =20 >> Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and >> perh= >> aps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error >> cor= >> rection mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle >> school= >> . I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are >> recruited= >> more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't happen. >> =20 >> What are your thoughts & experiences?=20 >> =20 >> Paul D. >> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an >> improbab= >> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20 >> >> >> >> >> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: >> [log in to unmask]: >> S= >> unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C >> I= >> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. >> Idon't >> l= >> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of >> re= >> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is >> a >> = >> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout >> whether= >> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually >> using >> = >> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in >> alte= >> rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not >> just= >> that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort >> of >> r= >> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As >> group= >> s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make >> sen= >> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't >> the= >> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the >> grama= >> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I >> can >> = >> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties >> invo= >> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE >> is >> = >> oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG >> adhe= >> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even >> if= >> their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off >> if >> w= >> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we >> don'= >> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the >> 1950's=2C= >> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and >> writing.Cra= >> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that >> disagre= >> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby >> for >> n= >> ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an >> organization >> m= >> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a >> long= >>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested >>> in>= >> the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation >> the> >> n= >> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of >> course=2C >> t= >> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term >> "fairly >> = >> conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of >> others >> v= >> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central >> Misso= >> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web >> in= >> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and >> selec= >> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at >> http://ateg.org/>To >> j= >> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface >> at= >> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or >> leave= >> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this >> LI= >> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.mu= >> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. >> > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_spee= >> d_122008= >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_ >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <html> >> <head> >> <style> >> .hmmessage P >> { >> margin:0px=3B >> padding:0px >> } >> body.hmmessage >> { >> font-size: 10pt=3B >> font-family:Verdana >> } >> </style> >> </head> >> <body class=3D'hmmessage'> >> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in >> context"= >> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the >> same= >> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name >> - >> = >> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar >> in= >> struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students >> don= >> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't >> know= >> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the >> meani= >> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes >> ba= >> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural >> deficienc= >> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great >> difficu= >> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR> >> <HR id=3DstopSpelling> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: >> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje= >> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: >> ATEG@= >> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR> >> <STYLE> >> .ExternalClass DIV >> {=3B} >> </STYLE> >> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"> >> <DIV></DIV> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious >> observation= >> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school >> English >> = >> teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching >> that >> t= >> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience >> of). >> = >> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget >> involved= >> in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the >> conversatio= >> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and >> inte= >> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been >> mo= >> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a >> lack >> o= >> f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for >> teachers >> i= >> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will >> change >> = >> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV> >> <FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR> >> <FONT face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level >> seem= >> to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they >> se= >> e as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in >> element= >> ary and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle >> school >> t= >> eachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change >> can= >> 't happen.</FONT><BR> >> <FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR> >> <FONT face=3DVerdana>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? >> </FONT><BR= >>> >> <FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR> >> <FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR> >> <DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage >> now= >> =2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ >> 3.4.127-1= >> 28).</FONT>=20 >> <DIV><BR></DIV> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"><BR> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2> >> <HR SIZE=3D1> >> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock >> <=3Bh= >> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">To:</SPAN><= >> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">Sent:<= >> /SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN >> style=3D"FO= >> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: >> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob= >> =2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree >> with= >> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" >> educ= >> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think >> "conservative" >> = >> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most >> of >> = >> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or >> abou= >> t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or >> traditional >> g= >> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative >> approaches=2C >> a= >> s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people >> disagr= >> ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust >> discussio= >> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C >> it'= >> s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make >> sen= >> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. >> Don't= >> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement >> for >> t= >> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with >> that= >> position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the >> natu= >> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and >> seque= >> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are >> an >> N= >> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives >> on >> = >> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching >> is= >> not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back >> to= >> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't >> necessar= >> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C >> much >> = >> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and >> writing.<BR><= >> BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing >> vie= >> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B >> Cr= >> aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for >> new&n= >> bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an >> or= >> ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not >> regres= >> sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me >> be= >> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would >> be >> = >> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities >> in >> = >> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of >> cour= >> se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with >> the<BR>>= >> =3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I >> appreciate >> s= >> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of >> language= >> .<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central >> Missouri<BR>>=3B= >> <BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the >> list's >> w= >> eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A >> href=3D"h= >> > ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar= >> chives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave the >> list"<BR>>= >> =3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A >> href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://= >> ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C >> pleas= >> e visit the list's web interface at:<BR> =3B  =3B <A >> href=3D"http:/= >> > /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive= >> s/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit >> ATEG's >> = >> web site at <A >> href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DI= >> V></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's >> web >> = >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >> "Joi= >> n or leave the list"=20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail >> faster= >> without improving your typing skills. <a >> href=3D'http://windowslive.com/Ex= >> plore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008' >> target=3D'_new'= >>>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</a></body> >> </html>= >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:03:59 -0500 >> From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943 >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Scott, >> >> =20 >> >> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third >> sentences, which are certainly not synonymous: >> >> =20 >> >> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being >> such a pig. >> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being >> such a pig. >> >> =20 >> >> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and >> c, d with e and f): >> >> =20 >> >> a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being >> such a pig. >> b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being >> such a pig. [a tad awkward for me] >> c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the >> act of being such a pig. >> =20 >> d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being >> such a pig. >> e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did >> not see him. >> f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because >> he was such a pig. >> >> =20 >> >> Dick Veit >> >> =20 >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> =20 >> >> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated >> correctly? >> >> =20 >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so >> greedily. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a >> pig. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a >> duplicitous boy. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior. >> >> =20 >> >> Scott Woods >> >> =20 >> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943 >> Content-Type: text/html; >> charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <html> >> >> <head> >> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = >> charset=3Dus-ascii"> >> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered)"> >> >> <style> >> <!-- >> /* Font Definitions */ >> @font-face >> {font-family:Tahoma; >> panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} >> /* Style Definitions */ >> p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal >> {margin:0in; >> margin-bottom:.0001pt; >> font-size:12.0pt; >> font-family:"Times New Roman";} >> a:link, span.MsoHyperlink >> {color:blue; >> text-decoration:underline;} >> a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> {color:purple; >> text-decoration:underline;} >> p >> {margin-right:0in; >> margin-left:0in; >> font-size:12.0pt; >> font-family:"Times New Roman";} >> pre >> {margin:0in; >> margin-bottom:.0001pt; >> font-size:10.0pt; >> font-family:"Courier New";} >> span.EmailStyle19 >> {font-family:Arial; >> color:navy;} >> @page Section1 >> {size:8.5in 11.0in; >> margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} >> div.Section1 >> {page:Section1;} >> /* List Definitions */ >> ol >> {margin-bottom:0in;} >> ul >> {margin-bottom:0in;} >> --> >> </style> >> >> </head> >> >> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> >> >> <div class=3DSection1> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the >> difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly = >> <i><span >> style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The >> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a = >> pig.</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The >> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a = >> pig.</span></font></li> >> </ol> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are = >> more or >> less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3 = >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> >> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see him being such a pig.</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D2 = >> color=3Dnavy >> face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a >> tad awkward for me]</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see him in the act of being such a pig.<br> >> </span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The >> boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see = >> him.</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li> >> </ol> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font >> = >> size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> >> >> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> >> >> </span></font></div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; >> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = >> size=3D2 >> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = >> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar = >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span >> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December = >> 14, 2008 >> 2:35 AM<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = >> [log in to unmask]<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or = >> Phrase</span></font></p> >> >> </div> >> >> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 = >> cellpadding=3D0> >> <tr> >> <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you >> = >> and are >> they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous = >> boy.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p> >> </div> >> </td> >> </tr> >> </table> >> >> <p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> >> </div> >> >> </body> >> >> </html> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:05:46 -0500 >> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_ >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Who's "such a pig" in (2)? >> >> Herb >> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask] >> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard >> Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04 >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> Scott, >> >> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third >> senten= >> ces, which are certainly not synonymous: >> >> >> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a >> pi= >> g. >> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such >> a >> p= >> ig. >> >> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and >> c, >> = >> d with e and f): >> >> >> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a >> pi= >> g. >> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a >> pi= >> g. [a tad awkward for me] >> 3. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the act >> of >> b= >> eing such a pig. >> >> 4. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such >> a >> p= >> ig. >> 5. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not >> see >> = >> him. >> 6. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because he >> was= >> such a pig. >> >> Dick Veit >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask] >> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Woods >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated >> correct= >> ly? >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig. >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so >> greedily. >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a >> pig. >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a >> duplic= >> itous boy. >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig. >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior. >> >> Scott Woods >> >> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> = >> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave= >> the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_ >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" >> xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= >> osoft-com:office:office" >> xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" >> = >> xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" >> xmlns=3D"http:= >> //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> >> >> <head> >> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; >> charset=3Dus-ascii"= >>> >> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> >> <!--[if !mso]> >> <style> >> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} >> o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} >> w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} >> .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} >> </style> >> <![endif]--> >> <style> >> <!-- >> /* Font Definitions */ >> @font-face >> {font-family:"Cambria Math"; >> panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> @font-face >> {font-family:Calibri; >> panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> @font-face >> {font-family:Tahoma; >> panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} >> @font-face >> {font-family:Consolas; >> panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> /* Style Definitions */ >> p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal >> {margin:0in; >> margin-bottom:.0001pt; >> font-size:12.0pt; >> font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} >> a:link, span.MsoHyperlink >> {mso-style-priority:99; >> color:blue; >> text-decoration:underline;} >> a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> {mso-style-priority:99; >> color:purple; >> text-decoration:underline;} >> p >> {mso-style-priority:99; >> mso-margin-top-alt:auto; >> margin-right:0in; >> mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; >> margin-left:0in; >> font-size:12.0pt; >> font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} >> pre >> {mso-style-priority:99; >> mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char"; >> margin:0in; >> margin-bottom:.0001pt; >> font-size:10.0pt; >> font-family:"Courier New";} >> span.HTMLPreformattedChar >> {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char"; >> mso-style-priority:99; >> mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted"; >> font-family:Consolas;} >> span.emailstyle19 >> {mso-style-name:emailstyle19; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; >> color:navy;} >> span.EmailStyle21 >> {mso-style-type:personal-reply; >> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D;} >> .MsoChpDefault >> {mso-style-type:export-only; >> font-size:10.0pt;} >> @page Section1 >> {size:8.5in 11.0in; >> margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} >> div.Section1 >> {page:Section1;} >> /* List Definitions */ >> @list l0 >> {mso-list-id:605964351; >> mso-list-template-ids:-1808469438;} >> @list l1 >> {mso-list-id:1190683118; >> mso-list-template-ids:1171688292;} >> @list l1:level1 >> {mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower; >> mso-level-tab-stop:.5in; >> mso-level-number-position:left; >> text-indent:-.25in;} >> ol >> {margin-bottom:0in;} >> ul >> {margin-bottom:0in;} >> --> >> </style> >> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> >> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> >> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> >> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> >> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> >> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> >> </head> >> >> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> >> >> <div class=3DSection1> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= >> "sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D'>Who’s “such a pig” in >> (2)?<o:p></o:p></spa= >> n></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= >> "sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= >> "sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= >> "sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt >> 0in >> = >> 0in 0in'> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= >> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly >> for >> = >> the >> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On >> Behalf >> = >> Of </b>Veit, >> Richard<br> >> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 13:04<br> >> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> >> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> </div> >> >> </div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'>Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first >> and >> third sentences, which are certainly <i>not</i> >> synonymous:</span><o:p></o:= >> p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 >> lfo1'><span >> style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother >> did >> = >> not >> see him being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 >> lfo1'><span >> style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother >> did >> = >> not >> see him, being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li> >> </ol> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'>To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a >> wi= >> th b >> and c, d with e and f):</span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'> <o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was >> very >> h= >> appy >> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was >> very >> h= >> appy >> that his mother did not see his being such a pig. <span >> > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'= >>>[a >> tad awkward for me]</span><o:p></o:p></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was >> very >> h= >> appy >> that his mother did not see him in the act of being such a pig.<br> >> <o:p></o:p></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was >> very >> h= >> appy >> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1 >> lfo2'><span >> style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy, being such a pig, was very >> happy >> t= >> hat >> his mother did not see him.</span><o:p></o:p></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was >> very >> h= >> appy >> that his mother did not see him, because he was such a >> pig.<o:p></o:p>= >> </li> >> </ol> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'>Dick Veit</span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"; >> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'> >> >> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> >> >> </div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= >> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly >> for >> = >> the >> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On >> Behalf >> = >> Of </b>Scott >> Woods<br> >> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM<br> >> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> >> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase</span><o:p></o:p></p> >> >> </div> >> >> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 >> cellpadding=3D0> >> <tr> >> <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and >> are >> = >> they >> punctuated correctly?<o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy >> th= >> at his >> mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy >> th= >> at his >> mother did not see him eating so greedily.<o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy >> th= >> at his >> mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy >> th= >> at his >> mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous boy.<o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy >> th= >> at his >> mother did not see his being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy >> th= >> at his >> mother did not see his bad behavior.<o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p> >> </div> >> </td> >> </tr> >> </table> >> >> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit >> the >> = >> list's >> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >> select >> "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> >> >> </div> >> >> </body> >> >> </html> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:13:33 -0500 >> From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1 >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Ambiguous to be sure, but I was considering the reading where the boy is >> the pig. >> >> =20 >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:06 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> =20 >> >> Who's "such a pig" in (2)? >> >> =20 >> >> Herb >> >> =20 >> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard >> Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04 >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> =20 >> >> Scott, >> >> =20 >> >> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third >> sentences, which are certainly not synonymous: >> >> =20 >> >> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being >> such a pig. >> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being >> such a pig. >> >> =20 >> >> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and >> c, d with e and f): >> >> =20 >> >> a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being >> such a pig. >> b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being >> such a pig. [a tad awkward for me] >> c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the >> act of being such a pig. >> =20 >> d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being >> such a pig. >> e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did >> not see him. >> f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because >> he was such a pig. >> >> =20 >> >> Dick Veit >> >> =20 >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> =20 >> >> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated >> correctly? >> >> =20 >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so >> greedily. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a >> pig. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a >> duplicitous boy. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig. >> >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior. >> >> =20 >> >> Scott Woods >> >> =20 >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >> "Join or leave the list"=20 >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >> "Join or leave the list"=20 >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1 >> Content-Type: text/html; >> charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <html xmlns:ns0=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"> >> >> <head> >> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = >> charset=3Dus-ascii"> >> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered)"> >> >> <style> >> <!--a:link >> {mso-style-priority:99;} >> span.MSOHYPERLINK >> {mso-style-priority:99;} >> a:visited >> {mso-style-priority:99;} >> span.MSOHYPERLINKFOLLOWED >> {mso-style-priority:99;} >> p >> {mso-style-priority:99;} >> pre >> {mso-style-priority:99;} >> span.HTMLPREFORMATTEDCHAR >> {mso-style-priority:99;} >> >> /* Font Definitions */ >> @font-face >> {font-family:Tahoma; >> panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} >> @font-face >> {font-family:Calibri;} >> @font-face >> {font-family:Consolas;} >> /* Style Definitions */ >> p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal >> {margin:0in; >> margin-bottom:.0001pt; >> font-size:12.0pt; >> font-family:"Times New Roman";} >> a:link, span.MsoHyperlink >> {color:blue; >> text-decoration:underline;} >> a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> {color:purple; >> text-decoration:underline;} >> p >> {margin-right:0in; >> margin-left:0in; >> font-size:12.0pt; >> font-family:"Times New Roman";} >> pre >> {margin:0in; >> margin-bottom:.0001pt; >> font-size:10.0pt; >> font-family:"Courier New";} >> span.HTMLPreformattedChar >> {font-family:Consolas;} >> span.emailstyle19 >> {font-family:Arial; >> color:navy;} >> span.EmailStyle21 >> {font-family:Calibri; >> color:#1F497D;} >> span.EmailStyle22 >> {font-family:Arial; >> color:navy;} >> @page Section1 >> {size:8.5in 11.0in; >> margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} >> div.Section1 >> {page:Section1;} >> /* List Definitions */ >> ol >> {margin-bottom:0in;} >> ul >> {margin-bottom:0in;} >> --> >> </style> >> >> </head> >> >> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> >> >> <div class=3DSection1> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ambiguous to be sure, but I was = >> considering >> the reading where the boy is the pig.</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font >> = >> size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> >> >> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> >> >> </span></font></div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; >> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = >> size=3D2 >> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = >> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar = >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span >> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT = >> F<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December = >> 14, 2008 1:06 >> PM<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = >> [log in to unmask]<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or = >> Phrase</span></font></p> >> >> </div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = >> face=3DCalibri><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Who’s >> = >> “such >> a pig” in (2)?</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = >> face=3DCalibri><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span= >>></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = >> face=3DCalibri><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span><= >> /font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = >> face=3DCalibri><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span= >>></font></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = >> 0in 0in 0in'> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; >> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = >> size=3D2 >> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = >> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar = >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span >> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-12-14 = >> 13:04<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = >> [log in to unmask]<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or = >> Phrase</span></font></p> >> >> </div> >> >> </div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the >> difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly = >> <i><span >> style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The >> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a = >> pig.</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The >> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a = >> pig.</span></font></li> >> </ol> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are = >> more or >> less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3 = >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> >> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see him being such a pig.</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D2 = >> color=3Dnavy >> face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a >> tad awkward for me]</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see him in the act of being such a pig.<br> >> </span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The >> boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see = >> him.</span></font></li> >> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = >> did not >> see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li> >> </ol> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font >> = >> size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> >> >> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> >> >> </span></font></div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; >> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = >> size=3D2 >> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = >> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar = >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span >> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December = >> 14, 2008 >> 2:35 AM<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = >> [log in to unmask]<br> >> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or = >> Phrase</span></font></p> >> >> </div> >> >> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 = >> cellpadding=3D0> >> <tr> >> <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you >> = >> and are >> they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous = >> boy.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 >> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was >> = >> very happy >> that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> </div> >> <div> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p> >> </div> >> </td> >> </tr> >> </table> >> >> <p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size: >> 12.0pt'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >> "Join or leave the list" </span></font></p> >> >> <p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = >> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit >> ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </span></font></p> >> >> </div> >> >> </body> >> >> </html> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = >> interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:10:16 -0600 >> From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: scope and sequence: was clause or phrase >> >> ------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Content-Disposition: inline >> >> Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut out >> for >> it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar and >> other >> features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language arts >> curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can still >> be >> hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure ATEG >> members >> and the discussions here can still be of immense value to that >> endeavor). >> When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, there will >> likely >> be a scramble for as many articulated plans as possible! >> >> John Alexander >> Austin, Texas >> >> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> Richard, >>> Scope and sequence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to >>> talk about the reasons for that and the difficulties around doing that >>> through ATEG. >>> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I thought >>> we >>> would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My >> plan, >>> which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to break >> into >>> subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be covered. >>> We >>> could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard English, >>> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that >>> wold >>> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a >>> vested >>> interest in the project. There was resistance, though, from different >>> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE, >> should >>> be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization. >>> That >>> conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I don't >>> fault >>> anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our >>> time >> to >>> construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the systematic >>> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very >>> thoughtful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE >>> convention. >> In >>> other words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a >>> sub-group >> of >>> NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this than >>> we >>> do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization. >>> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the >>> leadership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we >> have >>> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new >>> ways >> of >>> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of >> people >>> with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views. >>> This >>> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the project, but >> would >>> be asked to shut out from the conversation the new possibilities in >> grammar >>> that excite me the most. >>> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved in >>> the >>> project have written books on the subject, and you can't really do that >>> without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What >>> happens >>> if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? I >>> sometimes >>> feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on in my >>> thinking >>> because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older position. >>> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most tend >>> to >>> have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole, those >>> approaches have probably already been written. >>> As many of you know, much of the conversation about scope and sequence >> was >>> worked out by the New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that >>> group >>> to be in conflict (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't >>> even >>> feel comfortable airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and >> still >>> am, nervous about creating a rift in the public grammar community. I >> didn't >>> want anyone to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG. >>> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't moved >>> forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about >>> starting >> it >>> back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list. >>> NPG has the benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong >>> contrary perspective and not feel uncomfortable about that. >>> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the >>> necessity of ATEG endorsing its views. >>> I apologize if I have misrepresented anyone's views or anyone else's >>> views about the history of the project. I don't think of it as anyone >> being >>> at fault. These are very predictable difficulties given the nature of >>> the >>> project. >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> >>> Richard betting wrote: >>> >>>> Janet, Craig, et al. continued >>>> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the innateness of some >>>> grammatical structures is that children can understand the kinds of >>>> sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first >> grader >>>> will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, you >>>> will >>>> not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you won't get a >> present >>>> is very obvious." Another example results in the prepositional phrase >>>> as >>>> subject. "He said that he would leave at nine" might lead to "For him >>>> to >>>> leave at nine means that we'll have to finish our project quickly." I >>>> got >>>> those kinds of sentences and explanations from my study of generative >>>> grammar forty years ago. Transformations. The second called the T For >>>> To >>>> transform. >>>> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word groups >>>> phrases >>>> or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call them >>>> one- >> or >>>> two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive structures, >>>> finite >> or >>>> non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, complementary >>>> or >>>> appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, di- or >>>> bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and will >>>> students >> be >>>> able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and >>>> infinitives >>>> parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are there, >> anyway? >>>> And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of parts and >>>> improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers consciously >>>> and >>>> consistently make those connections between theory and practice? Are >>>> students being asked to write and speak and are they creating >>>> portfolios >> of >>>> written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they >>>> participating >> in >>>> the assessment process? >>>> >>>> I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English >>>> teachers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have >>>> been >>>> discussed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more >>>> than >> one >>>> grammatical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves >>>> so >>>> much as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get >> where >>>> they are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that >>>> they >>>> spend so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal) >>>> background in English, what courses should/must all language arts >> teachers >>>> have? Could we agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks >>>> (for >>>> teachers) meet the content requirement we might create? Is anyone >>>> still >>>> working on scope and sequence? >>>> >>>> Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and >>>> other >>>> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the >>>> end >>>> result seems to be that each person will create his/her own >>>> curriculum. >> If >>>> English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will, as >>>> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of >>>> grammar >>>> parts) are created. So much to do, so little time. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote: >>>> >>>> Janet, Craig, et al. >>>>> >>>>> There are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me' >>>>> in >>>>> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the pronoun >>>>> would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started out as a >>>>> label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed to accusative >>>>> object." >>>>> >>>>> There's a major stress point in the traditional system, though -- the >>>>> noun that normally goes with a preposition is usually called "the >>>>> object >>>>> of the preposition," and it can't be *both* an indirect object and >>>>> the >>>>> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional approach >>>>> always asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say either >>>>> 'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). Some earlier >>>>> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to be >>>>> case-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT more >>>>> prepositions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled >>>>> out >>>>> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another group >>>>> treated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where the >>>>> preposition-ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless >>>>> version (so no indirect object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for >>>>> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the prepositionless >>>>> version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense >>>>> there >>>>> were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because I'm sure >>>>> about >>>>> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with the >>>>> construction is). >>>>> >>>>> Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. Since specific >>>>> grammars, >>>>> particularly older ones, usually adopt one approach but don't mention >>>>> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and >>>>> students >>>>> to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end up >>>>> imagining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and has >>>>> always been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem. >>>>> >>>>> The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to V") presents even >>>>> more of a terminological muddle. From what I've seen, one approach is >>>>> to >>>>> just call the whole thing a specialized kind of infinitive >>>>> construction, >>>>> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker, >>>>> a >>>>> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for' part >>>>> and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part introduced >>>>> by >>>>> "for" 'subject-ish'. >>>>> >>>>> Bill Spruiell >>>>> Dept. of English >>>>> Central Michigan University >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM >>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >>>>> >>>>> Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I was really trying to get at is whether >>>>> or >>>>> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for me' an >>>>> indirect >>>>> object, since it seems to be doing the same thing as 'me' in 'Joe >>>>> baked >>>>> me >>>>> a cake.' I had learned that prepositional phrases can't be major >>>>> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to be >>>>> substantially more complex. >>>>> >>>>> 'For me to criticize him would be foolish.' Here 'for me' seems to >>>>> be >>>>> the subject of the infinitive clause. I know that 'for' >>>>> constructions >>>>> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call them >>>>> prepositions? >>>>> >>>>> I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained object >>>>> complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it goes way >>>>> beyond >>>>> what anyone should be required to know. >>>>> >>>>> My state, Washington has teacher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. >>>>> Students >>>>> are required to take a basic skills test, which we require students >>>>> to >>>>> take before entering our teacher ed program. Then, if they get an >>>>> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take a >>>>> test for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing >>>>> for, >>>>> and the test really asks them questions about grammar. >>>>> >>>>> Examples: >>>>> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill >>>>> behind our house. >>>>> >>>>> The underlined word in the sentence above is an >>>>> example of >>>>> >>>>> (A) a conjunction >>>>> >>>>> (B) a participle >>>>> >>>>> (C) a gerund >>>>> >>>>> (D) an adverb >>>>> >>>>> We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad. >>>>> >>>>> The underlined words in the sentence are an example of an error in >>>>> >>>>> (A) question formation >>>>> >>>>> (B) relative clause formation >>>>> >>>>> (C) passive formation >>>>> >>>>> (D) command formation >>>>> >>>>> Now I'm careful to use words like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to >>>>> use, >>>>> because I know they see it on the test. >>>>> >>>>> Janet >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:53 PM >>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >>>>> >>>>> Janet, >>>>> These are wonderful questions. Much of what I would say Bill covers, >>>>> so >>>>> I'll add a few sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions >>>>> and feel a little more settled in my thinking. >>>>> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure than >>>>> it >>>>> is to put it in the "right" category. So looking closely at these >>>>> non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a subject >>>>> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the >>>>> most >>>>> important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call them >>>>> clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing >>>>> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't like it, but >>>>> it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what the word >>>>> refers >>>>> to for the people who use it. >>>>> I start out with "the elements of the simple clause", so I cover >>>>> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say >>>>> there >>>>> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That seems >>>>> to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and non-restrictive >>>>> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in >>>>> that >>>>> slot, but I don't bring them in right away. >>>>> I think you mistakenly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in your >>>>> cake >>>>> sentence. My guess is you meant "me". I like the multi-functional >>>>> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, the >>>>> transitivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives us >>>>> processes and participants and circumstances andestablishes >>>>> participant >>>>> roles. We also have systems in place for construing that event in >>>>> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect >>>>> object >>>>> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing their >>>>> real world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake >>>>> by >>>>> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the baking.) >>>>> This can also give us a way to put different information in the usual >>>>> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for new >>>>> information. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for me." >>>>> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a cake." "Who baked the >>>>> cake? >>>>> "The cake was baked by Joe." Students seem to enjoy putting a clause >>>>> through its various permutations and then reflecting on how that >>>>> "construes" the process. We can also say something like "Joe baked >>>>> all >>>>> night", or "Joe baked with great care", not because we have stopped >>>>> understanding that "baking" means you bake something and are probably >>>>> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements >>>>> are >>>>> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" and >>>>> "intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex transitive" can be >>>>> used >>>>> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of a >>>>> particular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I think >>>>> that's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't >>>>> changed, >>>>> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the statement. >>>>> I have found that most state tests for students have no real >>>>> knowledge >>>>> content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something like >>>>> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can identify a >>>>> participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound sentences from >>>>> compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to pick a >>>>> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks for >>>>> terminology. Language, at least for students, is treated like a >>>>> behavior. >>>>> Are there teacher tests in your state? >>>>> >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> How would you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince >>>>> named >>>>> >>>>>> Joe. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you analyze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle >>>>>> phrase modifying the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've >>>>>> >>>>> always >>>>> >>>>>> called these non-finite constructions reduced clauses or participle >>>>>> clauses, but I have run into a problem. In my grammar class for >>>>>> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach noun >>>>>> modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, but >>>>>> >>>>> they >>>>> >>>>>> really don't know anything about finite and non-finite verbs yet, >>>>>> nor >>>>>> >>>>> do >>>>> >>>>>> they know much about clauses. So this semester, I decided I would >>>>>> >>>>> just >>>>> >>>>>> call them participle phrases which modify nouns. But then I was in >>>>>> trouble when we got to clauses because I wanted to call then reduced >>>>>> >>>>> or >>>>> >>>>>> non-finite clauses. By that time, the students knew enough to say >>>>>> >>>>> "Hey >>>>> >>>>>> wait a minute! Didn't you just tell us those were phrases?" At >>>>>> least >>>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>>> know they were listening in October. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object complement, or is there a >>>>>> better way to label this? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> How about this: Joe baked a cake for me. Can I just go ahead and >>>>>> >>>>> call >>>>> >>>>>> 'Joe' an indirect object? It means exactly the same this as Joe >>>>>> baked >>>>>> >>>>> me >>>>> >>>>>> a cake. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is an on-going problem for me, because, even though I try to >>>>>> >>>>> teach >>>>> >>>>>> them a pretty straight forward descriptive-structural-functional >>>>>> view >>>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>> syntax (Quirk et al is my bible), with a little discussion of >>>>>> prescriptivism thrown in so they'll know what to expect when they >>>>>> get >>>>>> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way >>>>>> to >>>>>> analyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They want to >>>>>> know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is gong to >>>>>> show >>>>>> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there >>>>>> is >>>>>> any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach pre-service >>>>>> teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have high-stakes >>>>>> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents in >>>>>> their futures. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Comments? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Janet Castilleja >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>>>> >>>>> interface >>>>> >>>>>> at: >>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>>> interface at: >>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>>> >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>>> >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>>> interface at: >>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>>> >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>>> >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>>> interface at: >>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>>> >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >>>> at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Content-Disposition: inline >> >> <div>Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut >> out= >> for it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar >> and >> o= >> ther features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language >> ar= >> ts curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can >> sti= >> ll be hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure >> AT= >> EG members and the discussions here can still be of immense value to >> that >> e= >> ndeavor). When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, >> there >> w= >> ill likely be a scramble for as many articulated plans as >> possible!</div> >> >> <div> </div> >> <div>John Alexander</div> >> <div>Austin, Texas<br><br></div> >> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig >> Hancock >> = >> <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a >> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] >> edu</a>></span> wrote:<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Richard,<br> Scope and >> sequ= >> ence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to talk about the >> rea= >> sons for that and the difficulties around doing that through ATEG.<br> >> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I >> thought >> = >> we would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My >> pl= >> an, which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to >> break= >> into subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be >> covere= >> d. We could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard >> English,= >> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that >> wold= >> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a >> vested >> i= >> nterest in the project. There was resistance, though, from >> different >> = >> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE, >> shoul= >> d be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization. >> Tha= >> t conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I >> don't >> f= >> ault anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our >> ti= >> me to construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the >> systematic >> = >> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very >> thoug= >> htful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE convention. In >> othe= >> r words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a >> sub-group >> = >> of NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this >> than >> = >> we do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.<br> >> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the >> le= >> adership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we >> have >> = >> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways >> of= >> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of >> peop= >> le with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views. >> &nb= >> sp;This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the >> project, >> = >> but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the new >> possibilities >> = >> in grammar that excite me the most.<br> >> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved >> in >> = >> the project have written books on the subject, and you can't really >> do >> = >> that without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What >> hap= >> pens if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? >>  = >> ;I sometimes feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on >> in >> = >> my thinking because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older >> positi= >> on.<br> >> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most >> tend= >> to have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole, >> those= >> approaches have probably already been written.<br> As many of you >> kno= >> w, much of the conversation about scope and sequence was worked out by >> the >> = >> New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that group to be in >> conflict >> = >> (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't even feel >> comfortabl= >> e airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and still am, >> nervous >> a= >> bout creating a rift in the public grammar community. I didn't want >> any= >> one to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.<br> >> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't >> mo= >> ved forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about >> starti= >> ng it back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.<br> NPG has >> th= >> e benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong contrary >> perspe= >> ctive and not feel uncomfortable about that.<br> >> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the >> nec= >> essity of ATEG endorsing its views.<br> I apologize if I have >> mi= >> srepresented anyone's views or anyone else's views about the >> histor= >> y of the project. I don't think of it as anyone being at fault. >> These >> a= >> re very predictable difficulties given the nature of the project.<br> >> <br>Craig<br><br><br>Richard betting wrote:<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et al. >> continued<b= >> r> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the >> innateness= >> of some grammatical structures is that children can understand the >> kinds >> o= >> f sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first >> grade= >> r will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, >> you= >> will not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you >> wo= >> n't get a present is very obvious." Another example >> results >> = >> in the prepositional phrase as subject. "He said that he would >> leave >> a= >> t nine" might lead to "For him to leave at nine means that >> we'= >> ;ll have to finish our project quickly." I got those kinds of >> sentence= >> s and explanations from my study of generative grammar forty years ago. >> Tra= >> nsformations. The second called the T For To transform.<br> >> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word >> groups= >> phrases or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call >> them= >> one- or two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive >> structures,= >> finite or non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, >> complemen= >> tary or appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, >> di- >> o= >> r bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and >> will >> s= >> tudents be able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and >> infi= >> nitives parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are >> there= >> , anyway? And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of >> parts= >> and improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers >> conscio= >> usly and consistently make those connections between theory and >> practice? >> A= >> re students being asked to write and speak and are they creating >> portfolios= >> of written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they >> participatin= >> g in the assessment process?<br> >> <br>I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English >> teac= >> hers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have been >> discu= >> ssed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more than one >> gram= >> matical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves so >> much >> = >> as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get where >> they= >> are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that they >> spend >> = >> so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal) background >> in= >> English, what courses should/must all language arts teachers have? >> Could >> w= >> e agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks (for teachers) >> meet >> t= >> he content requirement we might create? Is anyone still working on scope >> an= >> d sequence?<br> >> <br>Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and >> other= >> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the >> end >> r= >> esult seems to be that each person will create his/her own curriculum. >> &nbs= >> p;If English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will, >> as= >> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of >> gram= >> mar parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.<br> >> <br><br><br><br><br><br>On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C >> wr= >> ote:<br><br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et >> al.<br><br>Ther= >> e are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me' >> in<= >> br> >> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the >> pronoun= >> <br>would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started >> ou= >> t as a<br>label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed >> to >> a= >> ccusative<br> >> object."<br><br>There's a major stress point in the traditional >> sy= >> stem, though -- the<br>noun that normally goes with a preposition is >> usuall= >> y called "the object<br>of the preposition," and it can't >> be >> = >> *both* an indirect object and the<br> >> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional >> approach<br>al= >> ways asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say >> either= >> <br>'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). >> Som= >> e earlier<br> >> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to >> be<br>ca= >> se-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT >> more<br>prepo= >> sitions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled out<br> >> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another >> group<br>tr= >> eated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where >> the<br>preposition-= >> ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless<br>version (so no >> in= >> direct object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for<br> >> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the >> prepositionless<b= >> r>version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense >> there<= >> br>were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because >> I'= >> m sure about<br> >> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with >> the<br>cons= >> truction is).<br><br>Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. >> Sin= >> ce specific grammars,<br>particularly older ones, usually adopt one >> approac= >> h but don't mention<br> >> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and >> students= >> <br>to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end >> up<br>ima= >> gining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and >> has<br>alway= >> s been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem.<br> >> <br>The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to >> V") >> = >> presents even<br>more of a terminological muddle. From what I've >> seen, >> = >> one approach is to<br>just call the whole thing a specialized kind of >> infin= >> itive construction,<br> >> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker, >> a<br>= >> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for' >> pa= >> rt<br>and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part >> intr= >> oduced by<br> >> "for" 'subject-ish'.<br><br>Bill Spruiell<br>Dept. of >> Eng= >> lish<br>Central Michigan University<br><br><br><br>-----Original >> Message---= >> --<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>[mailto:<a >> href= >> =3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" >> target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask] >> .EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet<br> >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM<br>To: <a >> href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LIST= >> SERV.MUOHIO.EDU" >> target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject:= >> Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I >> was >> = >> really trying to get at is whether or<br> >> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for >> me' >> = >> an indirect<br>object, since it seems to be doing the same thing >> as >> &= >> #39;me' in 'Joe baked<br>me<br>a cake.' I had learned that >> prep= >> ositional phrases can't be major<br> >> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to >> be<br>substa= >> ntially more complex.<br><br>'For me to criticize him would be >> foolish.= >> ' Here 'for me' seems to be<br>the subject of the >> infini= >> tive clause. I know that 'for' constructions<br> >> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call >> them<br>preposi= >> tions?<br><br>I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained >> obj= >> ect<br>complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it >> go= >> es way beyond<br> >> what anyone should be required to know.<br><br>My state, Washington has >> tea= >> cher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. Students<br>are required to take >> a >> = >> basic skills test, which we require students to<br>take before entering >> our= >> teacher ed program. Then, if they get an<br> >> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take >> a<br>tes= >> t for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing >> for,<br>and >> = >> the test really asks them questions about grammar.<br><br>Examples:<br> >> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill<br>behind our >> house.<br= >>><br>The underlined word in the sentence above is an<br>example >>> of<br><br>(= >> A) a conjunction<br><br>(B) a participle<br><br>(C) a gerund<br><br>(D) >> an >> = >> adverb<br> >> <br>We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.<br><br>The >> under= >> lined words in the sentence are an example of an error in<br><br>(A) >> = >> question formation<br><br>(B) relative clause >> formation= >> <br><br>(C) passive formation<br> >> <br>(D) command formation<br><br>Now I'm careful to use >> wo= >> rds like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to use,<br>because I >> kno= >> w they see it on the test.<br><br>Janet<br><br>-----Original >> Message-----<b= >> r>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br> >> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" >> target=3D"_blank">ATEG@= >> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<br>Sent: Thursday, >> Dece= >> mber 11, 2008 4:53 PM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" >> ta= >> rget=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br> >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Janet,<br> These are wonderful >> qu= >> estions. Much of what I would say Bill covers,<br>so<br>I'll add a >> few >> = >> sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions<br>and feel a >> little= >> more settled in my thinking.<br> >> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure >> tha= >> n it<br>is to put it in the "right" category. So looking >> closely >> = >> at these<br>non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a >> sub= >> ject<br> >> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the >> most= >> <br>important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call >> them<br= >>>clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing<br> >> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't >> like= >> it, but<br>it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what >> the= >> word refers<br>to for the people who use it.<br> I start out with >> &qu= >> ot;the elements of the simple clause", so I cover<br> >> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say >> there<br>= >> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That >> seems<b= >> r>to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and >> non-restrictive<br> >> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in >> that<br>= >> slot, but I don't bring them in right away.<br> I think you >> mistak= >> enly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in >> your<br>cake<br>senten= >> ce. My guess is you meant "me". I like the >> multi-functional<br> >> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, >> the<br>transit= >> ivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives >> us<br>processes= >> and participants and circumstances andestablishes participant<br>roles. >> We= >> also have systems in place for construing that event in<br> >> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect >> object<br>= >> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing >> their<br>re= >> al world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake >> by<b= >> r> >> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the >> baking.)<b= >> r>This can also give us a way to put different information in the >> usual<br>= >> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for >> new<br>informat= >> ion. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for >> me.&quo= >> t;<br> >> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a >> cake." >> &= >> nbsp;"Who baked the cake?<br>"The cake was baked by Joe." >> &n= >> bsp;Students seem to enjoy putting a clause<br>through its various >> permutat= >> ions and then reflecting on how that<br> >> "construes" the process. We can also say something like >> "Joe= >> baked all<br>night", or "Joe baked with great care", not >> be= >> cause we have stopped<br>understanding that "baking" means you >> ba= >> ke something and are probably<br> >> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements >> are<br>= >> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" >> and<br>&qu= >> ot;intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex >> trans= >> itive" can be used<br> >> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of >> a<br>partic= >> ular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I >> think<br>th= >> at's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't >> changed= >> ,<br> >> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the >> statement.<br>&nb= >> sp;I have found that most state tests for students have no >> real<br>knowledg= >> e<br>content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something >> like<= >> br> >> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can >> identify= >> a<br>participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound >> sentences= >> from<br>compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to >> pi= >> ck a<br> >> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks >> for<br>ter= >> minology. Language, at least for students, is treated like >> a<br>behavior.<b= >> r> Are there teacher tests in your state?<br><br>Craig<br><br>How >> woul= >> d you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince named<br> >> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Joe.<br><br><br><br>Do you >> analy= >> ze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle<br>phrase >> modifyin= >> g the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've<br> >> </blockquote>always<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">called these non-finite >> construc= >> tions reduced clauses or participle<br>clauses, but I have run into a >> probl= >> em. In my grammar class for<br> >> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach >> noun<br= >>>modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, >>> but<br></b= >> lockquote>they<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">really don't know >> anything >> a= >> bout finite and non-finite verbs yet, nor<br></blockquote>do<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">they know much about clauses. >> &n= >> bsp;So this semester, I decided I would<br></blockquote>just<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">call them participle phrases >> whi= >> ch modify nouns. But then I was in<br>trouble when we got to >> clauses >> = >> because I wanted to call then reduced<br> >> </blockquote>or<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">non-finite clauses. By >> tha= >> t time, the students knew enough to say<br></blockquote>"Hey<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">wait a minute! >> Didn't >> = >> you just tell us those were phrases?" At >> least<br></blockquote>I= >> <br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">know they were listening in >> Octo= >> ber.<br><br><br><br>Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object >> compl= >> ement, or is there a<br> >> better way to label this?<br><br><br><br>How about this: Joe baked >> a >> = >> cake for me. Can I just go ahead and<br></blockquote>call<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">'Joe' an indirect >> object= >> ? It means exactly the same this as Joe baked<br></blockquote>me<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">a cake.<br><br><br><br>This >> is >> a= >> n on-going problem for me, because, even though I try >> to<br></blockquote>te= >> ach<br> >> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">them a pretty straight >> forward >> d= >> escriptive-structural-functional view<br></blockquote>of<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">syntax (Quirk et al is my >> bible)= >> , with a little discussion of<br>prescriptivism thrown in so they'll >> kn= >> ow what to expect when they get<br> >> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way >> to<br>a= >> nalyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They >> want >> = >> to<br>know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is >> gon= >> g to show<br> >> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there >> is<= >> br>any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach >> pre-servic= >> e<br>teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have >> high-stak= >> es<br> >> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents >> in<br>thei= >> r futures.<br><br><br><br>Comments?<br><br><br><br>Janet >> Castilleja<br><br>= >> <br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's >> web<br= >>> >> </blockquote>interface<br> >> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: >> 0px >> 0= >> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">at:<br> <a >> href=3D"h= >> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> target=3D"_blank">http://list= >> serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br> >> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's >> web >> s= >> ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" >> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><= >> br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >> visit >> t= >> he list's web<br> >> interface at:<br> <a >> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive= >> s/ateg.html" >> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm= >> l</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit >> ATEG= >> 9;s web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" >> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.= >> org/</a><br> >> <br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's >> web<br= >>>interface at:<br> <a >>> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv= >> es/ateg.html" >> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.ht= >> ml</a><br> >> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's >> web >> s= >> ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" >> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><= >> br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's >> web= >> interface at:<br> >> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> targ= >> et=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and >> sele= >> ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site >> at >> <= >> a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br> >> </blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the >> list= >> 's web interface at:<br> <a >> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.= >> edu/archives/ateg.html" >> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv= >> es/ateg.html</a><br> >> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's >> web >> s= >> ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" >> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><= >> br><br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >> vis= >> it the list's web interface at:<br> >> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> targ= >> et=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and >> sele= >> ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site >> at >> <= >> a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br> >> </blockquote></div><br> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800 >> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> I think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for = >> >> --0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Geoff,=0A=0AI think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need >> for >> = >> grammar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language >> Arts= >> umbrella besides just writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and >> Thinkng. >> = >> For example, I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help >> stu= >> dents understand literary texts (and have written about >> this).=0A=0APaul=0A= >> =A0"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an >> improbab= >> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). >> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________= >> _______________=0AFrom: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: >> ATEG@= >> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 >> PM=0ASubject= >> : Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=0A=0AFrom >> the >> = >> situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context" >> crowd, >> w= >> hich as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same old >> gramma= >> r rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" name - i.e., one >> tha= >> t seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar >> instruction.=A0 >> T= >> he problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know their >> adverb= >> ials from their adjectivals, but that they don't know how to use the >> basic >> = >> structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that they for >> the >> m= >> ost part are capable of.=A0 I think this goes back to the previous >> discussi= >> on where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic writers and >> ho= >> w we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing with these >> pr= >> oblems.=0A=0AGeoff >> Layton=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ADat= >> e: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800=0AFrom: [log in to unmask]: >> Re:= >> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=0ATo: >> ATEG@LISTSERV= >> .MUOHIO.EDU=0A=0A=0AThis reminds me of the rather curious observations I >> ha= >> ve had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English >> teachi= >> ng peers=A0have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their >> studen= >> ts have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few >> of >> = >> them have the time or the interest=A0to=A0get involved in the >> conversation >> = >> (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I >> know >> = >> that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as >> much= >> to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than >> most >> o= >> f my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a >> la= >> ck of time). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems >> to >> = >> be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at any time >> soon.=A0=0AAlso= >> , I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps >> ri= >> ghtly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error >> correctio= >> n mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I >> be= >> lieve that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited >> more >> = >> dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.=0A=A0=0AWhat >> are >> y= >> our thoughts & experiences? =0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=0A=0A=A0"If this were >> play'= >> d upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" >> (_Twelfth >> = >> Night_ 3.4.127-128). >> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom= >> : Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: >> [log in to unmask]:= >> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: >> Conservatives!=0A=0ABo= >> b,=0A=A0 I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with >> others= >> . I=0Adon't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" >> educators.= >> =0AThis sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is >> a=0A= >> bad name.=0A=A0 ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the >> conversati= >> on on list is=0Aabout whether something is "correct" or about how to >> classi= >> fy something,=0Ausually using structural or traditional grammar as the >> lens= >> . If you are=0Ainterested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can >> feel >> = >> somewhat=0Alonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, >> but= >> that=0Athere's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there >> sho= >> uld=0Abe on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative >> group.=0A=A0 >> = >> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would >> wonder=0Awhy= >> we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it >> a=0Amatte= >> r of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already >> out=0Athere?= >> =0A=A0 I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can >> also >> t= >> ry=0Ato understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving >> forwar= >> d=0Awith a scope and sequence throught ATEG.=0A=A0 1) NCTE is oppossed >> to >> i= >> t, and we are an NCTE subgroup.=0A=A0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to >> pers= >> pectives on gramamr that are=0Aalready somewhat established (even if >> their >> = >> teaching is not.) Frankly, I=0Athink we would be much better off if we >> went= >> back to the teaching of=0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't >> nec= >> essarily have to do=0Athat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, >> muc= >> h of it so much=0Amore friendly to applications in reading and >> writing.=0A= >> =0ACraig>=0A=0AWhat an=A0 interesting way of characterizing views of >> gramma= >> r that disagree=0A> with your own!=0A>=0A> Craig writes:=0A>=0A> My own >> ten= >> dency has been to lobby for new=A0 ways of looking at grammar, but=0A> >> ATEG= >> has long been an organization made=0A> up of people with fairly >> conservati= >> ve (not regressive, not by a long=0A> shot) views.=A0 This was hard on >> me >> b= >> ecause I felt I had a lot invested in=0A> the project, but would be >> asked >> t= >> o shut out from the conversation the=0A> new possibilities in grammar >> that >> = >> excite me the most.=0A>=0A> ****=0A> Of course, there is no hostility in >> ch= >> aracterizing others views with the=0A> term "fairly >> conservative."=0A>=0A> >> = >> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the >> nature= >> =0A> of language.=0A>=0A> Bob Yates, University of Central >> Missouri=0A>=0A>= >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface= >> =0A> at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> >> a= >> nd select "Join or leave the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at >> http://= >> ateg.org/=0A>=0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the >> li= >> st's web interface at:=0A=A0 =A0 >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.h= >> tml=0Aand select "Join or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at >> htt= >> p://ateg.org/=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the >> list'= >> s web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >> selec= >> t "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at >> http://ateg.org/=0A=0A_= >> _______________________________=0ASend e-mail faster without improving >> your= >> typing skills. Get your Hotmail=AE account. To join or leave this >> LISTSERV= >> list, please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu= >> /archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's >> web= >> site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> --0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} >> --></style></he= >> ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:verdana, helvetica, >> sans-serif;font-size= >> :10pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>Geoff,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>I >> think >> y= >> ou're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar >> instruction >> i= >> n connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella besides >> jus= >> t writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Thinkng. For example, I >> have >> f= >> ound many times that grammatical analysis can help students understand >> lite= >> rary texts (and have written about >> this).</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>= >> Paul<BR> </DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could >> condemn >> = >> it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ >> 3.4.127-128).=0A<DIV><BR></DI= >> V>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, >> sans-s= >> erif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new >> roman, >> n= >> ew york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR >> SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><= >> SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton >> <write= >> [log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">To:</SPAN></B>= >> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">Sent:</SP= >> AN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN >> style=3D"FONT-WEI= >> GHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches >> (was: >> C= >> onservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.hmmessage >> P=0A{=0Amargin:0px;pad= >> > ding:0px;}=0Abody.hmmessage=0A{=0Afont-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}=0A</= >> STYLE>=0AFrom the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar >> in= >> context" crowd, which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to >> teaching >> t= >> he same old grammar rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" >> na= >> me - i.e., one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against >> grammar= >> instruction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students >> do= >> n't know their adverbials from their adjectivals, but that they don't >> know >> = >> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the >> meanin= >> g that they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes >> back >> = >> to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural >> deficiencies= >> of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great >> difficulti= >> es dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff >> Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>=0A<HR >> i= >> d=3DstopSpelling>=0ADate: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: >> pdoniger= >> @SNET.NET<BR>Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: >> Conservati= >> ves!)<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.ExternalClass >> DI= >> V=0A{}=0A</STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: >> bookman >> = >> old style, new york, times, serif">=0A<DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT >> face=3DVerda= >> na>This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over >> the >> p= >> ast ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching >> peers hav= >> e commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have >> experi= >> enced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have >> the >> = >> time or the interest to get involved in the conversation >> (indeed,= >> may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that >> I >> h= >> ave too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to >> thes= >> e issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my >> pee= >> rs (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of >> ti= >> me). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be >> doing= >> , it doesn't look like this will change at any time >> soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT= >> face=3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Also, I think most >> uf= >> us at the secondary level seem to believe (and >> perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of >> erro= >> r correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and >> middle >> s= >> chool. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are >> recr= >> uited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't >> happen.</FONT><= >> BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>What are >> your= >> thoughts & experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT >> face=3DVerdana></FONT> <= >> BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>=0A<DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT >> siz= >> e=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an >> impro= >> bable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT> >> =0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<= >> DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, >> tim= >> es, serif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman >> old >> s= >> tyle, new york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR >> SIZE=3D1>= >> =0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock >> <= >> [log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">To:</SPAN></= >> B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">Sent:</= >> SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN >> style=3D"FONT-WE= >> IGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: >> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR>&n= >> bsp; I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. >> I<= >> BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" >> educators.<BR>T= >> his sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is >> a<BR>bad= >> name.<BR> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the >> conversat= >> ion on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or about how to >> clas= >> sify something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as >> the >> l= >> ens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you >> can >> f= >> eel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those >> views= >> , >> but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that >> ther= >> e should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative >> group.<= >> BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would >> wo= >> nder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? >> Isn't >> i= >> t a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already >> ou= >> t<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I can >> respect >> i= >> t. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the difficulties >> involved >> = >> in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<BR> >> 1) >> = >> NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<BR> 2) Most >> peop= >> le on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are<BR>already >> somewhat >> e= >> stablished (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I<BR>think we would >> be= >> much better off if we went back to the teaching of<BR>grammar I was >> given >> = >> growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<BR>that. A great >> deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly >> to= >> applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What >> an = >> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that >> disagree<BR>> >> w= >> ith your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own >> tendency= >> has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>> >> AT= >> EG has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly >> cons= >> ervative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. This >> was= >> hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the project, >> but= >> would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new >> possibili= >> ties in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>> ****<BR>> Of >> co= >> urse, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with >> the<BR>>= >> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I appreciate such an >> ho= >> nest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>> of >> language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central >> Missouri<BR>>= >> ;<BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's >> web >> = >> interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A >> href=3D"http://listser= >> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank >> rel=3Dnofollow>http://list= >> serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and select "Join or leave >> th= >> e list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A >> href=3D"http://ateg.org= >> /" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To >> jo= >> in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at:<B= >> R> <A >> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> t= >> arget=3D_blank >> rel=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html= >> </A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site >> at= >> <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank >> rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.or= >> g/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >> vis= >> it the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >> "Jo= >> in or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at >> http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>=0A<= >> HR>=0ASend e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A >> href=3D"h= >> > ttp://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed= >> _122008" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> >> To= >> join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at= >> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave >> t= >> he list" =0A<P>Visit ATEG's web site at >> http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></DIV></d= >> iv></body></html> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> --0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:27:01 -0600 >> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_ >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> Paul - Yes=2C of course you're right! I think that grammar has been so >> mar= >> ginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance to the entire >> ra= >> nge of language arts - that which allows you to write also allows you to >> re= >> ad and all of the other creative acts you mention - including thinking! >> In= >> fact=2C I've got an upcoming gig to speak at the College English >> Associati= >> on. Topic - "Thinking in the Context of Grammar"! Should be >> interesting. >> = >> Any and all advice accepted!Geoff Layton >> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: >> Re: >> = >> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: >> [log in to unmask] >> HIO.EDU >> >> >> >> >> Geoff=2C >> =20 >> I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar >> in= >> struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts >> umbrella >> = >> besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng. >> For >> = >> example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help >> stude= >> nts understand literary texts (and have written about this). >> =20 >> Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an >> impr= >> obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20 >> >> >> >> >> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To: >> [log in to unmask] >> nt: Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in >> the >> g= >> rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in >> context"= >> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the >> same= >> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name >> - >> = >> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar >> in= >> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't >> know= >> their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how >> to= >> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning >> that= >> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the >> prev= >> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of >> basic >> w= >> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties >> dealing >> = >> with these problems.Geoff Layton >> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: >> Re: >> = >> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: >> [log in to unmask] >> HIO.EDU >> >> >> >> >> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the >> past= >> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have >> commen= >> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced >> (o= >> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time >> or >> = >> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't >> seem >> = >> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many >> oth= >> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I >> wo= >> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long >> sile= >> nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And >> with >> = >> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it >> doesn't= >> look like this will change at any time soon. Also=2C I think most uf us >> at= >> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the >> issues >> = >> of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should >> have >> b= >> een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless >> eleme= >> ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into >> this >> c= >> onversation=2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts & >> experiences? >> = >> Paul D. >> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an >> improbab= >> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20 >> >> >> >> >> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: >> [log in to unmask]: >> S= >> unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C >> I= >> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. >> Idon't >> l= >> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of >> re= >> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is >> a >> = >> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout >> whether= >> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually >> using >> = >> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in >> alte= >> rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not >> just= >> that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort >> of >> r= >> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As >> group= >> s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make >> sen= >> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't >> the= >> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the >> grama= >> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I >> can >> = >> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties >> invo= >> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE >> is >> = >> oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG >> adhe= >> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even >> if= >> their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off >> if >> w= >> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we >> don'= >> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the >> 1950's=2C= >> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and >> writing.Cra= >> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that >> disagre= >> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby >> for >> n= >> ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an >> organization >> m= >> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a >> long= >>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested >>> in>= >> the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation >> the> >> n= >> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of >> course=2C >> t= >> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term >> "fairly >> = >> conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of >> others >> v= >> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central >> Misso= >> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web >> in= >> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and >> selec= >> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at >> http://ateg.org/>To >> j= >> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface >> at= >> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or >> leave= >> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this >> LI= >> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.mu= >> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit >> ATEG'= >> s web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your >> Hotmail= >> =AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the >> list's= >> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >> select= >> "Join or leave the list"=20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV >> lis= >> t=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/a= >> rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> _________________________________________________________________ >> You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.=20 >> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/= >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_ >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <html> >> <head> >> <style> >> .hmmessage P >> { >> margin:0px=3B >> padding:0px >> } >> body.hmmessage >> { >> font-size: 10pt=3B >> font-family:Verdana >> } >> </style> >> </head> >> <body class=3D'hmmessage'> >> Paul - Yes=2C of course you're right! =3B I think that grammar >> has = >> =3Bbeen so marginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance >> to= >> the entire range of language arts - that which allows you to write also >> al= >> lows you to read and all of the other =3Bcreative acts =3Byou >> menti= >> on - including thinking! =3B In fact=2C I've got an upcoming gig to >> spe= >> ak at the College English Association. Topic - "Thinking in the Context >> of >> = >> Grammar"! =3B Should be interesting. =3B Any and all advice >> accepte= >> d!<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR> >> <HR id=3DstopSpelling> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From: >> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje= >> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: >> ATEG@= >> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR> >> <STYLE> >> .ExternalClass DIV >> {=3B} >> </STYLE> >> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C >> sans-= >> serif"> >> <DIV></DIV> >> <DIV>Geoff=2C</DIV> >> <DIV> =3B</DIV> >> <DIV>I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for >> gramm= >> ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts >> umbr= >> ella besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and >> Thinkng.= >> For example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can >> help >> = >> students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV> >> <DIV> =3B</DIV> >> <DIV>Paul<BR> =3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I >> could= >> condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20 >> <DIV><BR></DIV> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C >> sans-= >> serif"><BR> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2> >> <HR SIZE=3D1> >> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton >> <= >> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">To:<= >> /SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold"= >>>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN >>> sty= >> le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar >> tr= >> enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR> >> <STYLE> >> .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P >> {padding:0px=3B} >> .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage >> {font-size:10pt=3Bfont-family:Verdana=3B} >> </STYLE> >> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in >> context"= >> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the >> same= >> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name >> - >> = >> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar >> in= >> struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students >> don= >> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't >> know= >> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the >> meani= >> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes >> ba= >> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural >> deficienc= >> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great >> difficu= >> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR> >> <HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: >> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje= >> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: >> ATEG@= >> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR> >> <STYLE> >> .ExternalClass DIV >> {=3B} >> </STYLE> >> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"> >> <DIV></DIV> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious >> observation= >> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school >> English >> = >> teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching >> that >> t= >> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience >> of). >> = >> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget >> involved= >> in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the >> conversatio= >> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and >> inte= >> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been >> mo= >> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a >> lack >> o= >> f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for >> teachers >> i= >> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will >> change >> = >> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT >> face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT= >> face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem >> to >> b= >> elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see >> as >> = >> one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in >> elementary >> a= >> nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school >> teache= >> rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't >> ha= >> ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT >> face=3DVerdan= >> a>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT >> face=3DVerda= >> na></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR> >> <DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage >> now= >> =2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ >> 3.4.127-1= >> 28).</FONT>=20 >> <DIV><BR></DIV> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"><BR> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2> >> <HR SIZE=3D1> >> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock >> <=3Bh= >> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">To:</SPAN><= >> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">Sent:<= >> /SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN >> style=3D"FO= >> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: >> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob= >> =2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree >> with= >> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" >> educ= >> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think >> "conservative" >> = >> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most >> of >> = >> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or >> abou= >> t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or >> traditional >> g= >> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative >> approaches=2C >> a= >> s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people >> disagr= >> ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust >> discussio= >> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C >> it'= >> s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make >> sen= >> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. >> Don't= >> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement >> for >> t= >> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with >> that= >> position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the >> natu= >> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and >> seque= >> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are >> an >> N= >> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives >> on >> = >> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching >> is= >> not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back >> to= >> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't >> necessar= >> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C >> much >> = >> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and >> writing.<BR><= >> BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing >> vie= >> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B >> Cr= >> aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for >> new&n= >> bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an >> or= >> ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not >> regres= >> sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me >> be= >> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would >> be >> = >> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities >> in >> = >> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of >> cour= >> se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with >> the<BR>>= >> =3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I >> appreciate >> s= >> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of >> language= >> .<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central >> Missouri<BR>>=3B= >> <BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the >> list's >> w= >> eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A >> href=3D"h= >> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> rel=3Dnofollow>http://listser= >> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave >> the= >> list"<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A >> href=3D"http://ateg.= >> org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or >> leave= >> this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface >> at:<BR> = >> =3B  =3B <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> rel= >> =3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and >> select= >> "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A >> href=3D"http:/= >> /ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To >> joi= >> n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> = >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave >> the= >> list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR> >> <HR> >> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A >> href=3D"http://= >> > windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12200= >> 8" rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To join or leave this >> LI= >> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.mu= >> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join >> or >> l= >> eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http:/= >> /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the >> list"= >> =20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />You live life >> onli= >> ne. So we put Windows on the web. <a >> href=3D'http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/1= >> 27032869/direct/01/' target=3D'_new'>Learn more about Windows Live >> </a></bo= >> dy> >> </html>= >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:28:47 -0600 >> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_ >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> PS: Does our exchange fall into the conservative or the liberal >> camp?Geoff= >> Layton >> =20 >> PPS: Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on this. You bring an >> acade= >> mic bent to the discussion that's valuable. >> >> >> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: >> Re: >> = >> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: >> [log in to unmask] >> HIO.EDU >> >> >> >> >> Geoff=2C >> =20 >> I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar >> in= >> struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts >> umbrella >> = >> besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng. >> For >> = >> example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help >> stude= >> nts understand literary texts (and have written about this). >> =20 >> Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an >> impr= >> obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20 >> >> >> >> >> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To: >> [log in to unmask] >> nt: Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in >> the >> g= >> rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in >> context"= >> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the >> same= >> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name >> - >> = >> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar >> in= >> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't >> know= >> their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how >> to= >> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning >> that= >> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the >> prev= >> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of >> basic >> w= >> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties >> dealing >> = >> with these problems.Geoff Layton >> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: >> Re: >> = >> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: >> [log in to unmask] >> HIO.EDU >> >> >> >> >> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the >> past= >> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have >> commen= >> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced >> (o= >> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time >> or >> = >> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't >> seem >> = >> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many >> oth= >> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I >> wo= >> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long >> sile= >> nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And >> with >> = >> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it >> doesn't= >> look like this will change at any time soon. Also=2C I think most uf us >> at= >> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the >> issues >> = >> of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should >> have >> b= >> een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless >> eleme= >> ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into >> this >> c= >> onversation=2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts & >> experiences? >> = >> Paul D. >> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an >> improbab= >> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20 >> >> >> >> >> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: >> [log in to unmask]: >> S= >> unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C >> I= >> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. >> Idon't >> l= >> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of >> re= >> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is >> a >> = >> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout >> whether= >> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually >> using >> = >> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in >> alte= >> rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not >> just= >> that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort >> of >> r= >> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As >> group= >> s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make >> sen= >> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't >> the= >> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the >> grama= >> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I >> can >> = >> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties >> invo= >> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE >> is >> = >> oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG >> adhe= >> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even >> if= >> their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off >> if >> w= >> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we >> don'= >> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the >> 1950's=2C= >> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and >> writing.Cra= >> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that >> disagre= >> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby >> for >> n= >> ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an >> organization >> m= >> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a >> long= >>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested >>> in>= >> the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation >> the> >> n= >> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of >> course=2C >> t= >> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term >> "fairly >> = >> conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of >> others >> v= >> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central >> Misso= >> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web >> in= >> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and >> selec= >> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at >> http://ateg.org/>To >> j= >> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface >> at= >> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or >> leave= >> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this >> LI= >> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.mu= >> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit >> ATEG'= >> s web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your >> Hotmail= >> =AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the >> list's= >> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >> select= >> "Join or leave the list"=20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV >> lis= >> t=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/a= >> rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Send e-mail anywhere. No map=2C no compass. >> > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anyw= >> here_122008= >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_ >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <html> >> <head> >> <style> >> .hmmessage P >> { >> margin:0px=3B >> padding:0px >> } >> body.hmmessage >> { >> font-size: 10pt=3B >> font-family:Verdana >> } >> </style> >> </head> >> <body class=3D'hmmessage'> >> PS: =3B Does our =3Bexchange fall into the conservative or the >> libe= >> ral camp?<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR> >>  =3B<BR> >> PPS: =3B Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on >> this. =3BYou >> = >> bring an academic bent to the discussion that's >> valuable.<BR><BR><BR><BR><B= >> R> >> >> <HR id=3DstopSpelling> >> <BR> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From: >> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje= >> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: >> ATEG@= >> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR><BR> >> <STYLE> >> .ExternalClass DIV >> {=3B} >> </STYLE> >> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C >> sans-= >> serif"> >> <DIV></DIV> >> <DIV>Geoff=2C</DIV> >> <DIV> =3B</DIV> >> <DIV>I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for >> gramm= >> ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts >> umbr= >> ella besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and >> Thinkng.= >> For example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can >> help >> = >> students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV> >> <DIV> =3B</DIV> >> <DIV>Paul<BR> =3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I >> could= >> condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20 >> <DIV><BR></DIV> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C >> sans-= >> serif"><BR> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2> >> <HR SIZE=3D1> >> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton >> <= >> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">To:<= >> /SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold"= >>>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN >>> sty= >> le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar >> tr= >> enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR> >> <STYLE> >> .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P >> {padding:0px=3B} >> .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage >> {font-size:10pt=3Bfont-family:Verdana=3B} >> </STYLE> >> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in >> context"= >> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the >> same= >> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name >> - >> = >> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar >> in= >> struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students >> don= >> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't >> know= >> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the >> meani= >> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes >> ba= >> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural >> deficienc= >> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great >> difficu= >> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR> >> <HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling> >> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: >> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje= >> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: >> ATEG@= >> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR> >> <STYLE> >> .ExternalClass DIV >> {=3B} >> </STYLE> >> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"> >> <DIV></DIV> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious >> observation= >> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school >> English >> = >> teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching >> that >> t= >> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience >> of). >> = >> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget >> involved= >> in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the >> conversatio= >> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and >> inte= >> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been >> mo= >> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a >> lack >> o= >> f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for >> teachers >> i= >> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will >> change >> = >> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT >> face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT= >> face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem >> to >> b= >> elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see >> as >> = >> one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in >> elementary >> a= >> nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school >> teache= >> rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't >> ha= >> ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT >> face=3DVerdan= >> a>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT >> face=3DVerda= >> na></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR> >> <DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage >> now= >> =2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ >> 3.4.127-1= >> 28).</FONT>=20 >> <DIV><BR></DIV> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"><BR> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new >> york= >> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2> >> <HR SIZE=3D1> >> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock >> <=3Bh= >> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">To:</SPAN><= >> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: >> bold">Sent:<= >> /SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN >> style=3D"FO= >> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: >> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob= >> =2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree >> with= >> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" >> educ= >> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think >> "conservative" >> = >> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most >> of >> = >> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or >> abou= >> t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or >> traditional >> g= >> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative >> approaches=2C >> a= >> s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people >> disagr= >> ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust >> discussio= >> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C >> it'= >> s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make >> sen= >> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. >> Don't= >> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement >> for >> t= >> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with >> that= >> position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the >> natu= >> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and >> seque= >> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are >> an >> N= >> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives >> on >> = >> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching >> is= >> not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back >> to= >> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't >> necessar= >> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C >> much >> = >> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and >> writing.<BR><= >> BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing >> vie= >> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B >> Cr= >> aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for >> new&n= >> bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an >> or= >> ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not >> regres= >> sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me >> be= >> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would >> be >> = >> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities >> in >> = >> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of >> cour= >> se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with >> the<BR>>= >> =3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I >> appreciate >> s= >> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of >> language= >> .<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central >> Missouri<BR>>=3B= >> <BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the >> list's >> w= >> eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A >> href=3D"h= >> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> rel=3Dnofollow>http://listser= >> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave >> the= >> list"<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A >> href=3D"http://ateg.= >> org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or >> leave= >> this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface >> at:<BR> = >> =3B  =3B <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> rel= >> =3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and >> select= >> "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A >> href=3D"http:/= >> /ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To >> joi= >> n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> = >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave >> the= >> list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR> >> <HR> >> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A >> href=3D"http://= >> > windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12200= >> 8" rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To join or leave this >> LI= >> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.mu= >> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join >> or >> l= >> eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: >> http:/= >> /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the >> list"= >> =20 >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail >> anywhe= >> re. No map=2C no compass. <a >> href=3D'http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail= >> ?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008' target=3D'_new'>Get >> your >> = >> Hotmail=AE account now.</a></body> >> </html>= >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:40:33 -0500 >> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_ >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Here's a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to use towards the end of >> th= >> e semester in my undergrad grammar course. >> >> With how Sad Steps, O Moon >> >> Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586) >> >> >> With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb'st the skies, >> How silently, and with how wan a face! >> What! May it be that even in heav'nly place >> That busy archer his sharp arrows tries? >> 5 Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes >> Can judge of love, thou feel'st a lover's case. >> I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace >> To me, that feel the like, thy state descries. >> >> Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me, >> 10 Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit? >> Are beauties there as proud as here they be? >> Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet >> Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess? >> Do they call virtue there ungratefulness? >> >> I would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they >> cou= >> ld use a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of "that" that would >> no= >> t occur in Modern English, "if that" in l.5, where "that" is used with a >> su= >> bordinating conjunction in a way that was common in Early Modern >> English. >> = >> I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time with ll.3-4, 7-8, >> 12-13.= >> We would then do a grammatical analysis, looking especially at verb >> compl= >> ementation (constituents licensed by the verb), order of constituents, >> and >> = >> voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, and at that point they >> were >> = >> able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the irony Sydney employs. >> T= >> he poem is challenging, but students frequently commented afterwards how >> us= >> eful they found grammatical analysis in other poetry they read, and >> occasio= >> nally in prose. Throughout the semester I had had them find in >> newspapers >> = >> and magazines examples of structures and functions we were studying at >> that= >> time, so they were already beginning to think in terms of applying >> grammat= >> ical analysis to what they were reading. >> >> Herb >> >> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask] >> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger >> Sent: 2008-12-14 11:28 >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) >> >> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the >> past= >> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have >> commen= >> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced >> (o= >> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time >> or >> = >> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't seem >> to= >> know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many >> other= >> pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I >> woul= >> d like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long >> silenc= >> es are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with >> the >> = >> work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't >> look >> = >> like this will change at any time soon. >> >> >> >> Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and >> perhap= >> s rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error >> corre= >> ction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle >> school. >> = >> I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are >> recruited >> m= >> ore dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen. >> >> >> >> What are your thoughts & experiences? >> >> >> >> Paul D. >> >> >> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an >> improbable >> = >> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM >> Subject: Re: Conservatives! >> >> Bob, >> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I >> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators. >> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a >> bad name. >> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list >> is >> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something, >> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are >> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat >> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that >> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should >> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group. >> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder >> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a >> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out >> there? >> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try >> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward >> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG. >> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup. >> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are >> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I >> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of >> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do >> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much >> more friendly to applications in reading and writing. >> >> Craig> >> >> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that >> disagree >>> with your own! >>> >>> Craig writes: >>> >>> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, >>> bu= >> t >>> ATEG has long been an organization made >>> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long >>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested >>> in >>> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the >>> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most. >>> >>> **** >>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with >>> the >>> term "fairly conservative." >>> >>> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the >>> natur= >> e >>> of language. >>> >>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> = >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> = >> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave= >> the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_ >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" >> xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= >> osoft-com:office:office" >> xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" >> = >> xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" >> xmlns=3D"http:= >> //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> >> >> <head> >> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; >> charset=3Dus-ascii"> >> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> >> <!--[if !mso]> >> <style> >> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} >> o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} >> w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} >> .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} >> </style> >> <![endif]--> >> <style> >> <!-- >> /* Font Definitions */ >> @font-face >> {font-family:"Cambria Math"; >> panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> @font-face >> {font-family:Calibri; >> panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> @font-face >> {font-family:Tahoma; >> panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} >> @font-face >> {font-family:Verdana; 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>> mso-style-link:"Heading 1"; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";} >> .MsoChpDefault >> {mso-style-type:export-only; >> font-size:10.0pt;} >> @page Section1 >> {size:8.5in 11.0in; >> margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} >> div.Section1 >> {page:Section1;} >> --> >> </style> >> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> >> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> >> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> >> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> >> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> >> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> >> </head> >> >> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> >> >> <div class=3DSection1> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= >> "sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D'>Here’s a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to >> use >> towards the end of the semester in my undergrad grammar >> course.<o:p></o:p><= >> /span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= >> "sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <h1><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>With how Sad Steps, O >> Moon<o:p></o:p><= >> /span></h1> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sir Philip Sidney >> (1554-1586)<o:p></o:p><= >> /span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>With how sad steps, O Moon, thou >> climb’st the skies,<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>How silently, and with how wan a >> face!<o:= >> p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What! May it be that even in >> heav’nly place<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>That busy archer his sharp arrows >> tries?<= >> o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'>5 >> Sure, >> if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Can judge of love, thou feel’st >> a >> lover’s case.<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I read it in thy looks, thy languisht >> gra= >> ce<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To me, that feel the like, thy state >> desc= >> ries.<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Then, ev’n of fellowship, O >> Moon, >> t= >> ell >> me,<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'>10 Is >> constant love deem’d there but want of wit?<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Are beauties there as proud as here >> they >> = >> be?<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they above love to be lov’d, >> and= >> yet<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Those lovers scorn whom that love doth >> possess?<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span >> style=3D'font-size:11= >> .0pt; >> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they call virtue there >> ungratefulness?= >> <o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'>I >> would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they >> could= >> use >> a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of “that” >> tha= >> t >> would not occur in Modern English, “if that” in l.5, where >> R= >> 20;that” >> is used with a subordinating conjunction in a way that was common in >> Early >> Modern English. I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time >> wi= >> th >> ll.3-4, 7-8, 12-13. We would then do a grammatical analysis, >> looking >> especially at verb complementation (constituents licensed by the verb), >> ord= >> er >> of constituents, and voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, >> an= >> d at >> that point they were able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the >> iro= >> ny >> Sydney employs. The poem is challenging, but students frequently >> commented afterwards how useful they found grammatical analysis in other >> po= >> etry >> they read, and occasionally in prose. Throughout the semester I >> had >> h= >> ad >> them find in newspapers and magazines examples of structures and >> functions >> = >> we >> were studying at that time, so they were already beginning to think in >> term= >> s of >> applying grammatical analysis to what they were >> reading.<o:p></o:p></span><= >> /p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= >> ans-serif"'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= >> "sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= >> "sans-serif"; >> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt >> 0in >> = >> 0in 0in'> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= >> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly >> for >> = >> the >> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On >> Behalf >> = >> Of </b>Paul >> E. Doniger<br> >> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 11:28<br> >> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> >> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: >> Conservatives!)<= >> o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> </div> >> >> </div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Thi= >> s >> reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past >> ten >> years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have >> commen= >> ted >> on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (or >> se= >> em >> to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or the >> interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may >> don't >> s= >> eem >> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many >> oth= >> er >> pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I >> would >> like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long >> silences= >> are >> due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work >> lo= >> ad >> for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like >> this >> = >> will >> change at any time soon.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old >> Styl= >> e","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> </div> >> >> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old >> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p= >>></span></p> >> >> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Also, I think most >> uf= >> us at >> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the >> issues >> o= >> f >> grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have >> been >> dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless >> elementar= >> y >> and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this >> conversation, change can't happen.</span><span >> style=3D'font-family:"Bookma= >> n Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old >> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p= >>></span></p> >> >> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>What are your >> thought= >> s >> & experiences? </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old >> Style","s= >> erif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old >> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p= >>></span></p> >> >> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Paul >> D.</span><span >> style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old >> Style","serif"= >> '><br> >> <o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> </div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman >> O= >> ld Style","serif"'>"If >> this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable >> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span >> style=3D'font-fami= >> ly: >> "Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old >> Style","serif"= >> '><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> </div> >> >> <div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old >> Style","serif"= >> '><o:p> </o:p></span></p> >> >> <div> >> >> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> >> >> <hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> >> >> </span></div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= >> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span >> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Craig >> Hancock >> <[log in to unmask]><br> >> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> >> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<br> >> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Conservatives!<br> >> </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><br> >> Bob,<br> >> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with >> others. >> = >> I<br> >> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" >> educator= >> s.<br> >> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think >> "conservative" >> = >> is a<br> >> bad name.<br> >> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on >> lis= >> t is<br> >> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify >> something,<br> >> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you >> are<br> >> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat<br> >> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but >> that<br> >> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there >> should<br> >> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.<br> >> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would >> wonde= >> r<br> >> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it >> a<br> >> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already >> out<br> >> there?<br> >> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can >> also >> t= >> ry<br> >> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving >> forward<br> >> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<br> >> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<br> >> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that >> are<br= >>> >> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, >> I<br= >>> >> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of<br> >> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<br> >> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<br> >> more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<br> >> <br> >> Craig><br> >> <br> >> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that >> disag= >> ree<br> >> > with your own!<br> >> ><br> >> > Craig writes:<br> >> ><br> >> > My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at >> grammar, but<br> >> > ATEG has long been an organization made<br> >> > up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a >> long<b= >> r> >> > shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot >> inve= >> sted >> in<br> >> > the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation >> the<= >> br> >> > new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<br> >> ><br> >> > ****<br> >> > Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views >> with >> t= >> he<br> >> > term "fairly conservative."<br> >> ><br> >> > Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the >> na= >> ture<br> >> > of language.<br> >> ><br> >> > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri<br> >> ><br> >> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> inter= >> face<br> >> > at:<br> >> > <a >> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate= >> g.html" >> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br> >> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br> >> ><br> >> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" >> target=3D"_blank= >> ">http://ateg.org/</a><br> >> ><br> >> <br> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> = >> at:<br> >> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" >> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br> >> and select "Join or leave the list"<br> >> <br> >> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" >> target=3D"_blank">htt= >> p://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> >> >> </div> >> >> </div> >> >> </div> >> >> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit >> the >> = >> list's >> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >> select >> "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> >> >> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p> >> >> </div> >> >> </body> >> >> </html> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) >> *********************************************************** >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:02:41 -0500 > From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) > > The loss of /l/ after a low vowel goes back to Early Modern English. > Notic= > e no one hypercorrects "talk," "walk," or "chalk," but between a low back > v= > owel and a nasal we do see the spelling pronunciation, as in "almond," > "pal= > m," "psalm," etc. Notice that it doesn't seem to happen with "salmon," > whi= > ch has a low front vowel. I think by now the spelling pronunciation has > be= > come standard. > > I grew up, the son of a polyglot Lutheran pastor and a third grade > teacher,= > without the spelling pronunciation. I can remember my mother telling me > t= > hat some people pronounced the /l/ but it was really supposed to be > silent.= > And yet I became a linguist. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask] > OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Atchley, Clinton > Sent: 2008-12-15 10:56 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) > > Hi, Scott, > > I, too, say "for-rid," but I wonder how you pronounce that tasty nut > meat. Do you say "am-mend" or the spelling pronunciation "al-mond"? I > still use the original pronunciation occasionally just to be contrary > and to see if anyone will correct me, but I find that, when I do, my > students have no idea what I'm talking about. Does anyone know when/why > this pronunciation changed? > > Just procrastinating when I should be grading term papers. > > Clinton Atchley, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of English > Box 7652 > 1100 Henderson Street > Henderson State University > Arkadelphia, AR 71999 > Phone: 870.230.5276 > Email: [log in to unmask] > Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:17 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) > > I admired him, fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "him." > I admired his fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "fishing." > > > Scott Catledge > > I am pleased with my being labeled "conservative." I would not deny > my being labeled archconservative. I have never forgotten that > conservative > and conservation are close kin. I wish to conserve clear and precise > language. I do not see language as static: I cannot speak Anglo-Saxon > nor > do I need to unless I am teaching HEL. I had a director who was fond of > constantly reiterating that all progress is change. Regardless of the > physical or social context, I always reminded him out loud that all > change > is not progress. I often see a need for new words; I do not see the > need > for new pronunciations of words nor for new syntax. > My ex-wife always said /fore-head/. > > I always responded: > There was a little girl and she had a little curl > Right in the middle of her /fore-head/ > When she was good, she was very, very good. > When she was bad she was /hore-head/. > My kids quickly caught on to my pronunciation /for-rid/. > > My grandchildren and my greatgrandchildren do not use my grammar and > syntax. > Why should they? Their teachers do not teach grammar--they know no > grammar > to teach. Moreover, it is politically incorrect to prefer one style > over > any other. If it can be spoken, it must be correct to that child's peer > group--and that it the only important guideline for language. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest > system > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:00 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) > > There are 13 messages totalling 4404 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Clause or Phrase (5) > 2. Conservatives! > 3. Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) (6) > 4. scope and sequence: was clause or phrase > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:34:50 -0800 > From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > --0-64264188-1229240090=3D:87409 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3DA0 > Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated > correct=3D > ly? > =3DA0 > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig. > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so > greedily. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a > pig. > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a > duplic=3D > itous boy. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig. > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior. > =3DA0 > Scott Woods > =3DA0 > > > > > > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > To: [log in to unmask] > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30 PM > > At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote: >> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a > pig. > . . . > > DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."=3D20 > Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of > "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the > mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If > the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action > followi=3D > ng a > possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma > might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that > if > you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and > th=3D > e > gerund connection is ignored. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > --0-64264188-1229240090=3D:87409 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii > > <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td > valign=3D"= > top" > style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated > correctly?</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a > pig.</DIV> > <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so > greedily.<BR></DIV> > <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such > a > pig.</DIV> > <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such > a > duplicitous boy.<BR></DIV> > <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a > pig.</DIV> > <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad > behavior.</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>Scott Woods</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms > <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV> > <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: > rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: DD Farms > <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<BR>To: > [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30 > PM<BR><BR><PRE>At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote: > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a > pig. > . . . > > DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that." > Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of > "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the > mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If > the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action > following a > possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma > might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that > if > you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and > the > gerund connection is ignored. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --0-64264188-1229240090=3D:87409-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:20:24 -0500 > From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Conservatives! > > Bob, > I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I > don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators. > This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a > bad name. > ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list > is > about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something, > usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are > interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat > lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that > there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should > be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group. > If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder > why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a > matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out > there? > I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also > try > to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward > with a scope and sequence throught ATEG. > 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup. > 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are > already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I > think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of > grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do > that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much > more friendly to applications in reading and writing. > > Craig> > > What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that > disagree >> with your own! >> >> Craig writes: >> >> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, > but >> ATEG has long been an organization made >> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long >> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested > in >> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the >> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most. >> >> **** >> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with > the >> term "fairly conservative." >> >> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the > nature >> of language. >> >> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:38:40 -0500 > From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > Herb, > Nice analysis. Not sure why I missed it, especially since John asked > for a functional analysis, and this is something very clearly presented > in Halliday. > I like to use these kinds of pairings to show the distinction: > "I saw his slow landing on the river." > "I saw him landing/land slowly on the river." > > "I watched his painful demise from cancer." > "I watched him dying/die painfully from cancer." > > If,in fact, these participle structures (or infinitive > structures)often bear subjects (as seems true in the second sentence > of each pair), that's another argument for calling them clauses. The > only thing missing is the finite. > > What we perceive is often a happening or process, so it makes sense > that we can construe it in that way. > > As you say, finding and discovering verbs work a little differently. > > Craig> > > > Why not a third analysis? "being" as a participle, as in "I found him >> fishing in the White River." ""See" allows all three constructions. >> "Find" does not. Other perception verbs allow the participial >> construction as well: >> >> I felt the breeze blowing on my back. >> I smelled the paper burning. >> I heard the sirens blaring as the fire trucks went by. >> >> Herb >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms >> Sent: 2008-12-13 01:31 >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >> >> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote: >>>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a > pig. >> . . . >> >> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, >> "that." Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use >> of "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the mother saw, >> then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If the emphasis >> is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action following a >> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma >> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think >> that if you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the >> possessive and the gerund connection is ignored. >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800 > From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > --0-35116534-1229272083=3D:41507 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the > past=3D > ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers=3DA0have > comm=3D > ented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have > experienced =3D > (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the > time o=3D > r the interest=3DA0to=3DA0get involved in the conversation (indeed, may > don't s=3D > eem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too > many=3D > other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues > as =3D > I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my > long =3D > silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And > wit=3D > h the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it > doesn't=3D > look like this will change at any time soon.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AAlso, I think > m= > ost > uf=3D > us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that > the i=3D > ssues of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) > should =3D > have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that > unless=3D > elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically > into =3D > this conversation, change can't happen.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AWhat are your > thought= > s & > ex=3D > periences? =3D0A=3DA0=3D0APaul D.=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0"If this were play'd upon > a= > stage > now, =3D > I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ > 3.4.127-128).=3D > =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0AFrom: Craig > = > Hancock > <han=3D > [log in to unmask]>=3D0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunday, > Decembe= > r > 14=3D > , 2008 9:20:24 AM=3D0ASubject: Re: Conservatives!=3D0A=3D0ABob,=3D0A=3DA0 > I= > agree > wit=3D > h some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I=3D0Adon't like > the=3D > views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.=3D0AThis sort of > respon=3D > se doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a=3D0Abad name.=3D0A=3DA0 > ATEG i=3D > s a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list > is=3D0Aabout =3D > whether something is "correct" or about how to classify > something,=3D0Ausuall=3D > y using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you > are=3D0Ainteres=3D > ted in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat=3D0Alonely. > It'=3D > s not just that people disagree with those views, but that=3D0Athere's not > th=3D > e sort of robust discussion about them that there should=3D0Abe on a > grammar =3D > list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.=3D0A=3DA0 If that's the > case= > , > it=3D > would make sense that many people would wonder=3D0Awhy we need a scope > and s=3D > equence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a=3D0Amatter of just getting > endo=3D > rsement for the gramamr that's already out=3D0Athere?=3D0A=3DA0 I don't > agr= > ee > wit=3D > h that position, but I can respect it. I can also try=3D0Ato understand > the n=3D > ature of the difficulties involved in moving forward=3D0Awith a scope and > seq=3D > uence throught ATEG.=3D0A=3DA0 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an > NCT= > E > su=3D > bgroup.=3D0A=3DA0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr > that=3D > are=3D0Aalready somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) > Frankl=3D > y, I=3D0Athink we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching > of=3D > =3D0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to > do=3D0Ath=3D > at. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so > much=3D0Amore f=3D > riendly to applications in reading and > writing.=3D0A=3D0ACraig>=3D0A=3D0AWh= > at > an=3DA0=3D > interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree=3D0A> > with =3D > your own!=3D0A>=3D0A> Craig writes:=3D0A>=3D0A> My own tendency has been > to > lobby f=3D > or new=3DA0 ways of looking at grammar, but=3D0A> ATEG has long been an > organiz=3D > ation made=3D0A> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, > not b=3D > y a long=3D0A> shot) views.=3DA0 This was hard on me because I felt I had > a > lot=3D > invested in=3D0A> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the > conve=3D > rsation the=3D0A> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the > most.=3D0A>=3D > =3D0A> ****=3D0A> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing > others > vie=3D > ws with the=3D0A> term "fairly conservative."=3D0A>=3D0A> Craig, I > apprecia= > te > suc=3D > h an honest appraisal of others views of the nature=3D0A> of > language.=3D0A>=3D0A=3D >> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri=3D0A>=3D0A> To join or leave > this L=3D > ISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=3D0A> at:=3D0A>=3DA0 = > =3DA0 > =3DA0 =3D > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=3D0A> and select "Join or > leave=3D > the list"=3D0A>=3D0A> Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/=3D0A>=3D0A= > =3D0ATo > jo=3D > in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at:=3D > =3D0A=3DA0 =3DA0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=3D0Aand > sele= > ct > "Join=3D > or leave the list"=3D0A=3D0AVisit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/=3D0A > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > --0-35116534-1229272083=3D:41507 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii > > <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} > --></style></head><body><div style=3D"font-family:bookman old style, new > york, > times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious > observations I > have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English > teaching peers have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that > their students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience > of). > Yet few of them have the time or the interest to get involved > in > the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation > even > exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and > interests to > devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more > involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack > of > interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers > increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this will > change at > any time soon.</FONT></DIV> > <P><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> </P> > <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level > seem > to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they > see > as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in > elementary > and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school > teachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation, change > can't > happen.</FONT></P> > <P><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> </P> > <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>What are your thoughts & experiences? > </FONT></P> > <P><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> </P> > <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT></P> > <DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, > I > could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ > 3.4.127-128).</FONT> > <DIV><BR></DIV> > <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, > times, serif"><BR> > <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, > times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2> > <HR SIZE=3D1> > <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock > <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN > style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 > 9:20:24 > AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: > Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR> I agree with some > conservatives > much more than I agree with others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar > typical of "progressive" educators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't > help. I > don't think "conservative" is a<BR>bad name.<BR> ATEG is a > conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is<BR>about > whether something is "correct" or about how to classify > something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as the > lens. > If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can > feel > somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, > but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that > there > should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative > group.<BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many > people > would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already > exist? > Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's > already out<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I > can > respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the > difficulties > involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught > ATEG.<BR> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE > subgroup.<BR> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on > gramamr > that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is > not.) > Frankly, I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to the > teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily > have > to do<BR>that. A great > deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly > to > applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What > an > interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree<BR>> > with your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own > tendency > has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>> > ATEG > has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly > conservative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. > This > was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the > project, > but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new > possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>> > ****<BR>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others > views > with the<BR>> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I > appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the > nature<BR>> of > language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central > Missouri<BR>><BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please > visit > the list's web interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A > href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> > and > select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at > <A > href=3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To > join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at:<BR> <A > href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and > select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A > href=3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > --0-35116534-1229272083=3D:41507-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:58:43 -0600 > From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in > context"=3D > crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the > same=3D > old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name > - =3D > i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar > in=3D > struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't > know=3D > their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't know how > to=3D > use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning > that=3D > they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the > prev=3D > ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of > basic w=3D > riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties > dealing =3D > with these problems.Geoff Layton > > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: > Re: =3D > Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: > [log in to unmask] > HIO.EDU > > > > > This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the > past=3D > ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have > commen=3D > ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced > (o=3D > r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time > or =3D > the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't > seem =3D > to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many > oth=3D > er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I > wo=3D > uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long > sile=3D > nces are due not to a lack of interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And > with =3D > the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it > doesn't=3D > look like this will change at any time soon. > =3D20 > Also=3D2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and > perh=3D > aps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error > cor=3D > rection mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle > school=3D > . I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are > recruited=3D > more dynamically into this conversation=3D2C change can't happen. > =3D20 > What are your thoughts & experiences?=3D20 > =3D20 > Paul D. > "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an > improbab=3D > le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20 > > > > > From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: > [log in to unmask]: S=3D > unday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob= > =3D2C > I=3D > agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. > Idon't l=3D > ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of > re=3D > sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is > a =3D > conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout > whether=3D > something is "correct" or about how to classify something=3D2Cusually > using =3D > structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in > alte=3D > rnative approaches=3D2C as I am=3D2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not > just=3D > that people disagree with those views=3D2C but thatthere's not the sort > of r=3D > obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As > group=3D > s go=3D2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=3D2C it would > make > sen=3D > se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't > the=3D > y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the > grama=3D > mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=3D2C but I > can =3D > respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties > invo=3D > lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE > is =3D > oppossed to it=3D2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG > adhe=3D > re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even > if=3D > their teaching is not.) Frankly=3D2C Ithink we would be much better off > if w=3D > e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we > don'=3D > t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the > 1950's=3D2C=3D > much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and > writing.Cra=3D > ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that > disagre=3D > e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby > for n=3D > ew ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but> ATEG has long been an > organization m=3D > ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=3D2C not by a > long=3D >> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested > in>=3D > the project=3D2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation > the> n=3D > ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of > course=3D2C t=3D > here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term > "fairly =3D > conservative.">> Craig=3D2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of > others v=3D > iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central > Misso=3D > uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web > in=3D > terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and > selec=3D > t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/>To j=3D > oin or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface > at=3D > : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or > leave=3D > the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this > LI=3D > STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.mu=3D > ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > _________________________________________________________________ > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_s > pee=3D > d_122008=3D > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html> > <head> > <style> > .hmmessage P > { > margin:0px=3D3B > padding:0px > } > body.hmmessage > { > font-size: 10pt=3D3B > font-family:Verdana > } > </style> > </head> > <body class=3D3D'hmmessage'> > From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in > context"=3D > crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the > same=3D > old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name > - =3D > i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar > in=3D > struction. =3D3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students > don=3D > 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't > know=3D > how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the > meani=3D > ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3D3B I think this goes > ba=3D > ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural > deficienc=3D > ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great > difficu=3D > lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR> > <HR id=3D3DstopSpelling> > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: > [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D > ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: > ATEG@=3D > LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR> > <STYLE> > .ExternalClass DIV > {=3D3B} > </STYLE> > > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"> > <DIV></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious > observation=3D > s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school > English =3D > teaching peers =3D3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching > that t=3D > heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience > of). =3D > Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3D3Bto =3D3Bget > involved=3D > in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't seem to know that the > conversatio=3D > n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and > inte=3D > rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been > mo=3D > re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a > lack o=3D > f interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for > teachers i=3D > ncreasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it doesn't look like this will > change =3D > at any time soon.</FONT></DIV> > <FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR> > <FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Also=3D2C I think most uf us at the secondary level > seem=3D > to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they > se=3D > e as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in > element=3D > ary and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle > school t=3D > eachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=3D2C change > can=3D > 't happen.</FONT><BR> > <FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR> > <FONT face=3D3DVerdana>What are your thoughts &=3D3B experiences? > </FONT><BR=3D >> > <FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR> > <FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR> > <DIV><BR> =3D3B</DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>"If this were play'd upon a > stage > now=3D > =3D2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ > 3.4.127-1=3D > 28).</FONT>=3D20 > <DIV><BR></DIV> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><BR> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2> > <HR SIZE=3D3D1> > <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock > <=3D3Bh=3D > [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">To:</SPAN><=3D > /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">Sent:<=3D > /SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN > style=3D3D"FO=3D > NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: > Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=3D > =3D2C<BR> =3D3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree > with=3D > others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" > educ=3D > ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think > "conservative" =3D > is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3D3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most > of =3D > the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or > abou=3D > t how to classify something=3D2C<BR>usually using structural or > traditional g=3D > rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative > approaches=3D2C a=3D > s I am=3D2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people > disagr=3D > ee with those views=3D2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust > discussio=3D > n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=3D2C > it'=3D > s a conservative group.<BR> =3D3B If that's the case=3D2C it would > make > sen=3D > se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. > Don't=3D > they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement > for t=3D > he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3D3B I don't agree with > that=3D > position=3D2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the > natu=3D > re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and > seque=3D > nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3D3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=3D2C and we are > an N=3D > CTE subgroup.<BR> =3D3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives > on =3D > gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching > is=3D > not.) Frankly=3D2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back > to=3D > the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we don't > necessar=3D > ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=3D2C > much =3D > of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and > writing.<BR><=3D > BR>Craig>=3D3B<BR><BR>What an =3D3B interesting way of > characterizing > vie=3D > ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3D3B with your own!<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>= > =3D3B > Cr=3D > aig writes:<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B My own tendency has been to lobby for > new&n=3D > bsp=3D3B ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but<BR>>=3D3B ATEG has long > been= > an > or=3D > ganization made<BR>>=3D3B up of people with fairly conservative (not > regres=3D > sive=3D2C not by a long<BR>>=3D3B shot) views. =3D3B This was hard > on= > me > be=3D > cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3D3B the project=3D2C but > would > be =3D > asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3D3B new possibilities > in =3D > grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B ****<BR>>=3D3B > O= > f > cour=3D > se=3D2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with > the<BR>>=3D > =3D3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Craig=3D2C I > appreciate s=3D > uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3D3B of > language=3D > .<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central > Missouri<BR>>=3D3B=3D > <BR>>=3D3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the > list's w=3D > eb interface<BR>>=3D3B at:<BR>>=3D3B =3D3B  =3D3B  =3D3B > <A > href=3D3D"h=3D > ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu > /ar=3D > chives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3D3B and select "Join or leave the > list"<BR>>=3D > =3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A > href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/">http://=3D > ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3D3B<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C > pleas=3D > e visit the list's web interface at:<BR> =3D3B  =3D3B <A > href=3D3D"http:/=3D > /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/arch > ive=3D > s/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit > ATEG's =3D > web site at <A > href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DI=3D > V></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's > web =3D > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Joi=3D > n or leave the list"=3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail > faster=3D > without improving your typing skills. <a > href=3D3D'http://windowslive.com/Ex=3D > plore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008' > target=3D3D'_new'=3D >>Get your Hotmail=3DAE account.</a></body> > </html>=3D > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:03:59 -0500 > From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Scott, > > =3D20 > > The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third > sentences, which are certainly not synonymous: > > =3D20 > > 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being > such a pig. > 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being > such a pig. > > =3D20 > > To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and > c, d with e and f): > > =3D20 > > a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being > such a pig. > b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being > such a pig. [a tad awkward for me] > c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the > act of being such a pig. > =3D20 > d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being > such a pig. > e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did > not see him. > f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because > he was such a pig. > > =3D20 > > Dick Veit > > =3D20 > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > =3D20 > > Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated > correctly? > > =3D20 > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so > greedily. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a > pig. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a > duplicitous boy. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior. > > =3D20 > > Scott Woods > > =3D20 > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html> > > <head> > <meta http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D > charset=3D3Dus-ascii"> > <meta name=3D3DGenerator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered)"> > > <style> > <!-- > /* Font Definitions */ > @font-face > {font-family:Tahoma; > panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > /* Style Definitions */ > p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal > {margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman";} > a:link, span.MsoHyperlink > {color:blue; > text-decoration:underline;} > a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple; > text-decoration:underline;} > p > {margin-right:0in; > margin-left:0in; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman";} > pre > {margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:"Courier New";} > span.EmailStyle19 > {font-family:Arial; > color:navy;} > @page Section1 > {size:8.5in 11.0in; > margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} > div.Section1 > {page:Section1;} > /* List Definitions */ > ol > {margin-bottom:0in;} > ul > {margin-bottom:0in;} > --> > </style> > > </head> > > <body lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dpurple> > > <div class=3D3DSection1> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the > difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =3D > <i><span > style=3D3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3D1> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3 > color=3D3D= > black > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The > boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =3D > pig.</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3 > color=3D3D= > black > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The > boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =3D > pig.</span></font></li> > </ol> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =3D > more or > less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3D3 =3D > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > > <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3Da> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see him being such a pig.</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D3D2 =3D > color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a > tad awkward for me]</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see him in the act of being such a pig.<br> > </span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3 > color=3D3D= > black > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The > boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =3D > him.</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li> > </ol> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <div> > > <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter > style=3D3D'text-align:center'><fo= > nt > =3D > size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> > > <hr size=3D3D2 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter tabindex=3D3D-1> > > </span></font></div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D3D2 face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =3D > size=3D3D2 > face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =3D > Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span > style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December > =3D > 14, 2008 > 2:35 AM<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D > [log in to unmask]<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or > =3D > Phrase</span></font></p> > > </div> > > <table class=3D3DMsoNormalTable border=3D3D0 cellspacing=3D3D0 =3D > cellpadding=3D3D0> > <tr> > <td valign=3D3Dtop style=3D3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you > =3D > and are > they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =3D > boy.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p> > </div> > </td> > </tr> > </table> > > <p><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > > </div> > > </body> > > </html> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:05:46 -0500 > From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Who's "such a pig" in (2)? > > Herb > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask] > OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard > Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > Scott, > > The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third > senten=3D > ces, which are certainly not synonymous: > > > 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a > pi=3D > g. > 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such > a p=3D > ig. > > To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and > c, =3D > d with e and f): > > > 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a > pi=3D > g. > 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a > pi=3D > g. [a tad awkward for me] > 3. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the act > of b=3D > eing such a pig. > > 4. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such > a p=3D > ig. > 5. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not > see =3D > him. > 6. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because he > was=3D > such a pig. > > Dick Veit > > ________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask] > OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Woods > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated > correct=3D > ly? > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig. > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so > greedily. > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a > pig. > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a > duplic=3D > itous boy. > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig. > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior. > > Scott Woods > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface =3D > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave=3D > the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html xmlns:v=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" > xmlns:o=3D3D"urn:schemas-micr=3D > osoft-com:office:office" > xmlns:w=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =3D > xmlns:m=3D3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" > xmlns=3D3D"http:=3D > //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> > > <head> > <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D3D"text/html; > charset=3D3Dus-ascii"=3D >> > <meta name=3D3DGenerator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered > medium)"> > <!--[if !mso]> > <style> > v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > </style> > <![endif]--> > <style> > <!-- > /* Font Definitions */ > @font-face > {font-family:"Cambria Math"; > panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Calibri; > panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Tahoma; > panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Consolas; > panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > /* Style Definitions */ > p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal > {margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} > a:link, span.MsoHyperlink > {mso-style-priority:99; > color:blue; > text-decoration:underline;} > a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {mso-style-priority:99; > color:purple; > text-decoration:underline;} > p > {mso-style-priority:99; > mso-margin-top-alt:auto; > margin-right:0in; > mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; > margin-left:0in; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} > pre > {mso-style-priority:99; > mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char"; > margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:"Courier New";} > span.HTMLPreformattedChar > {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char"; > mso-style-priority:99; > mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted"; > font-family:Consolas;} > span.emailstyle19 > {mso-style-name:emailstyle19; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; > color:navy;} > span.EmailStyle21 > {mso-style-type:personal-reply; > font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D;} > .MsoChpDefault > {mso-style-type:export-only; > font-size:10.0pt;} > @page Section1 > {size:8.5in 11.0in; > margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} > div.Section1 > {page:Section1;} > /* List Definitions */ > @list l0 > {mso-list-id:605964351; > mso-list-template-ids:-1808469438;} > @list l1 > {mso-list-id:1190683118; > mso-list-template-ids:1171688292;} > @list l1:level1 > {mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower; > mso-level-tab-stop:.5in; > mso-level-number-position:left; > text-indent:-.25in;} > ol > {margin-bottom:0in;} > ul > {margin-bottom:0in;} > --> > </style> > <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> > <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D3D"edit" spidmax=3D3D"1026" /> > </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> > <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D3D"edit"> > <o:idmap v:ext=3D3D"edit" data=3D3D"1" /> > </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> > </head> > > <body lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dpurple> > > <div class=3D3DSection1> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D > "sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D'>Who’s “such a pig” in > (2)?<o:p></o:p></spa=3D > n></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D > "sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D > "sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D > "sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <div> > > <div style=3D3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt > 0in =3D > 0in 0in'> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=3D > ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly > for =3D > the > Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On > Behalf =3D > Of </b>Veit, > Richard<br> > <b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 13:04<br> > <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> > <b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > </div> > > </div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'>Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first > and > third sentences, which are certainly <i>not</i> > synonymous:</span><o:p></o:=3D > p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> > > <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3D1> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 > lfo1'><span > style=3D3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother > did =3D > not > see him being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 > lfo1'><span > style=3D3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother > did =3D > not > see him, being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li> > </ol> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'>To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a > wi=3D > th b > and c, d with e and f):</span><o:p></o:p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.25in'> <o:p></o:p></p> > > <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3Da> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was > very h=3D > appy > that his mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was > very h=3D > appy > that his mother did not see his being such a pig. <span > > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'=3D >>[a > tad awkward for me]</span><o:p></o:p></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was > very h=3D > appy > that his mother did not see him in the act of being such a pig.<br> > <o:p></o:p></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was > very h=3D > appy > that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1 > lfo2'><span > style=3D3D'color:windowtext'>The boy, being such a pig, was very > happy t=3D > hat > his mother did not see him.</span><o:p></o:p></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was > very h=3D > appy > that his mother did not see him, because he was such a > pig.<o:p></o:p>=3D > </li> > </ol> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'>Dick Veit</span><o:p></o:p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"; > color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> > > <div> > > <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter style=3D3D'text-align:center'> > > <hr size=3D3D2 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter> > > </div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=3D > ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly > for =3D > the > Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On > Behalf =3D > Of </b>Scott > Woods<br> > <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM<br> > <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> > <b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase</span><o:p></o:p></p> > > </div> > > <table class=3D3DMsoNormalTable border=3D3D0 cellspacing=3D3D0 > cellpadding=3D3D0> > <tr> > <td valign=3D3Dtop style=3D3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and > are =3D > they > punctuated correctly?<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very > happ= > y > th=3D > at his > mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very > happ= > y > th=3D > at his > mother did not see him eating so greedily.<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very > happ= > y > th=3D > at his > mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very > happ= > y > th=3D > at his > mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous boy.<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very > happ= > y > th=3D > at his > mother did not see his being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very > happ= > y > th=3D > at his > mother did not see his bad behavior.<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > </td> > </tr> > </table> > > <p> <o:p></o:p></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit > the =3D > list's > web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select > "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> > > <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> > > </div> > > </body> > > </html> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:13:33 -0500 > From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Ambiguous to be sure, but I was considering the reading where the boy is > the pig. > > =3D20 > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:06 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > =3D20 > > Who's "such a pig" in (2)? > > =3D20 > > Herb > > =3D20 > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard > Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > =3D20 > > Scott, > > =3D20 > > The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third > sentences, which are certainly not synonymous: > > =3D20 > > 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being > such a pig. > 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being > such a pig. > > =3D20 > > To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and > c, d with e and f): > > =3D20 > > a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being > such a pig. > b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being > such a pig. [a tad awkward for me] > c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the > act of being such a pig. > =3D20 > d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being > such a pig. > e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did > not see him. > f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because > he was such a pig. > > =3D20 > > Dick Veit > > =3D20 > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase > > =3D20 > > Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated > correctly? > > =3D20 > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so > greedily. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a > pig. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a > duplicitous boy. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig. > > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior. > > =3D20 > > Scott Woods > > =3D20 > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=3D20 > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html xmlns:ns0=3D3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"> > > <head> > <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D3D"text/html; =3D > charset=3D3Dus-ascii"> > <meta name=3D3DGenerator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered)"> > > <style> > <!--a:link > {mso-style-priority:99;} > span.MSOHYPERLINK > {mso-style-priority:99;} > a:visited > {mso-style-priority:99;} > span.MSOHYPERLINKFOLLOWED > {mso-style-priority:99;} > p > {mso-style-priority:99;} > pre > {mso-style-priority:99;} > span.HTMLPREFORMATTEDCHAR > {mso-style-priority:99;} > > /* Font Definitions */ > @font-face > {font-family:Tahoma; > panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Calibri;} > @font-face > {font-family:Consolas;} > /* Style Definitions */ > p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal > {margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman";} > a:link, span.MsoHyperlink > {color:blue; > text-decoration:underline;} > a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple; > text-decoration:underline;} > p > {margin-right:0in; > margin-left:0in; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman";} > pre > {margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:"Courier New";} > span.HTMLPreformattedChar > {font-family:Consolas;} > span.emailstyle19 > {font-family:Arial; > color:navy;} > span.EmailStyle21 > {font-family:Calibri; > color:#1F497D;} > span.EmailStyle22 > {font-family:Arial; > color:navy;} > @page Section1 > {size:8.5in 11.0in; > margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} > div.Section1 > {page:Section1;} > /* List Definitions */ > ol > {margin-bottom:0in;} > ul > {margin-bottom:0in;} > --> > </style> > > </head> > > <body lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dpurple> > > <div class=3D3DSection1> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ambiguous to be sure, but I was =3D > considering > the reading where the boy is the pig.</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <div> > > <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter > style=3D3D'text-align:center'><fo= > nt > =3D > size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> > > <hr size=3D3D2 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter tabindex=3D3D-1> > > </span></font></div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D3D2 face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =3D > size=3D3D2 > face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =3D > Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span > style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT =3D > F<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December > =3D > 14, 2008 1:06 > PM<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D > [log in to unmask]<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or > =3D > Phrase</span></font></p> > > </div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span = > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3D"#1f497d" =3D > face=3D3DCalibri><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Who’s > =3D > “such > a pig” in (2)?</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3D"#1f497d" =3D > face=3D3DCalibri><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </spa > n=3D >></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3D"#1f497d" =3D > face=3D3DCalibri><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span> > <=3D > /font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3D"#1f497d" =3D > face=3D3DCalibri><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </spa > n=3D >></font></p> > > <div> > > <div style=3D3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = > =3D > 0in 0in 0in'> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D3D2 face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =3D > size=3D3D2 > face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =3D > Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span > style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-12-14 =3D > 13:04<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D > [log in to unmask]<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or > =3D > Phrase</span></font></p> > > </div> > > </div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span = > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the > difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =3D > <i><span > style=3D3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3D1> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3 > color=3D3D= > black > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The > boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =3D > pig.</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3 > color=3D3D= > black > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The > boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =3D > pig.</span></font></li> > </ol> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =3D > more or > less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3D3 =3D > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > > <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3Da> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see him being such a pig.</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D3D2 =3D > color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a > tad awkward for me]</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see him in the act of being such a pig.<br> > </span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3 > color=3D3D= > black > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The > boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =3D > him.</span></font></li> > <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother = > =3D > did not > see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li> > </ol> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy > face=3D3DArial><span= > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p> > > <div> > > <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter > style=3D3D'text-align:center'><fo= > nt > =3D > size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> > > <hr size=3D3D2 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter> > > </span></font></div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D3D2 face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =3D > size=3D3D2 > face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =3D > Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span > style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December > =3D > 14, 2008 > 2:35 AM<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D > [log in to unmask]<br> > <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or > =3D > Phrase</span></font></p> > > </div> > > <table class=3D3DMsoNormalTable border=3D3D0 cellspacing=3D3D0 =3D > cellpadding=3D3D0> > <tr> > <td valign=3D3Dtop style=3D3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you > =3D > and are > they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =3D > boy.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 > face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy > was > =3D > very happy > that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p> > </div> > </td> > </tr> > </table> > > <p><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span = > =3D > style=3D3D'font-size: > 12.0pt'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" </span></font></p> > > <p><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D > style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit > ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </span></font></p> > > </div> > > </body> > > </html> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =3D > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:10:16 -0600 > From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: scope and sequence: was clause or phrase > > ------=3D_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: inline > > Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut out > for > it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar and > other > features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language arts > curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can still > be > hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure ATEG > members > and the discussions here can still be of immense value to that > endeavor). > When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, there will > likely > be a scramble for as many articulated plans as possible! > > John Alexander > Austin, Texas > > On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >> Richard, >> Scope and sequence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time > to >> talk about the reasons for that and the difficulties around doing that >> through ATEG. >> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I thought > we >> would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My > plan, >> which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to > break > into >> subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be > covered. We >> could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard English, >> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that > wold >> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a > vested >> interest in the project. There was resistance, though, from different >> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE, > should >> be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization. > That >> conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I don't > fault >> anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our > time > to >> construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the systematic >> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very >> thoughtful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE > convention. > In >> other words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a > sub-group > of >> NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this > than we >> do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization. >> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the >> leadership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that > we > have >> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new > ways > of >> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of > people >> with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views. > This >> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the project, but > would >> be asked to shut out from the conversation the new possibilities in > grammar >> that excite me the most. >> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved in > the >> project have written books on the subject, and you can't really do > that >> without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What > happens >> if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? I > sometimes >> feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on in my > thinking >> because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older position. >> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most tend > to >> have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole, > those >> approaches have probably already been written. >> As many of you know, much of the conversation about scope and > sequence > was >> worked out by the New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that > group >> to be in conflict (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't > even >> feel comfortable airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and > still >> am, nervous about creating a rift in the public grammar community. I > didn't >> want anyone to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG. >> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't moved >> forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about > starting > it >> back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list. >> NPG has the benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong >> contrary perspective and not feel uncomfortable about that. >> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the >> necessity of ATEG endorsing its views. >> I apologize if I have misrepresented anyone's views or anyone else's >> views about the history of the project. I don't think of it as anyone > being >> at fault. These are very predictable difficulties given the nature of > the >> project. >> >> Craig >> >> >> Richard betting wrote: >> >>> Janet, Craig, et al. continued >>> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the innateness of some >>> grammatical structures is that children can understand the kinds of >>> sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first > grader >>> will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, you > will >>> not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you won't get a > present >>> is very obvious." Another example results in the prepositional > phrase as >>> subject. "He said that he would leave at nine" might lead to "For him > to >>> leave at nine means that we'll have to finish our project quickly." I > got >>> those kinds of sentences and explanations from my study of generative >>> grammar forty years ago. Transformations. The second called the T For > To >>> transform. >>> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word groups > phrases >>> or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call them > one- > or >>> two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive structures, > finite > or >>> non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, complementary > or >>> appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, di- or >>> bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and will > students > be >>> able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and > infinitives >>> parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are there, > anyway? >>> And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of parts and >>> improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers consciously > and >>> consistently make those connections between theory and practice? Are >>> students being asked to write and speak and are they creating > portfolios > of >>> written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they > participating > in >>> the assessment process? >>> >>> I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English >>> teachers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have > been >>> discussed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more > than > one >>> grammatical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers > themselves so >>> much as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get > where >>> they are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that > they >>> spend so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal) >>> background in English, what courses should/must all language arts > teachers >>> have? Could we agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks > (for >>> teachers) meet the content requirement we might create? Is anyone > still >>> working on scope and sequence? >>> >>> Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and > other >>> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the > end >>> result seems to be that each person will create his/her own > curriculum. > If >>> English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will, > as >>> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of > grammar >>> parts) are created. So much to do, so little time. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote: >>> >>> Janet, Craig, et al. >>>> >>>> There are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me' > in >>>> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the pronoun >>>> would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started out as a >>>> label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed to > accusative >>>> object." >>>> >>>> There's a major stress point in the traditional system, though -- > the >>>> noun that normally goes with a preposition is usually called "the > object >>>> of the preposition," and it can't be *both* an indirect object and > the >>>> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional > approach >>>> always asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say > either >>>> 'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). Some earlier >>>> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to > be >>>> case-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT more >>>> prepositions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled > out >>>> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another > group >>>> treated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where the >>>> preposition-ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless >>>> version (so no indirect object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for >>>> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the > prepositionless >>>> version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense > there >>>> were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because I'm sure > about >>>> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with the >>>> construction is). >>>> >>>> Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. Since specific > grammars, >>>> particularly older ones, usually adopt one approach but don't > mention >>>> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and > students >>>> to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end up >>>> imagining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and > has >>>> always been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major > problem. >>>> >>>> The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to V") presents > even >>>> more of a terminological muddle. From what I've seen, one approach > is to >>>> just call the whole thing a specialized kind of infinitive > construction, >>>> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous > marker, a >>>> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for' > part >>>> and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part introduced > by >>>> "for" 'subject-ish'. >>>> >>>> Bill Spruiell >>>> Dept. of English >>>> Central Michigan University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet >>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >>>> >>>> Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I was really trying to get at is whether > or >>>> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for me' an > indirect >>>> object, since it seems to be doing the same thing as 'me' in 'Joe > baked >>>> me >>>> a cake.' I had learned that prepositional phrases can't be major >>>> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to be >>>> substantially more complex. >>>> >>>> 'For me to criticize him would be foolish.' Here 'for me' seems to > be >>>> the subject of the infinitive clause. I know that 'for' > constructions >>>> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call them >>>> prepositions? >>>> >>>> I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained object >>>> complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it goes way > beyond >>>> what anyone should be required to know. >>>> >>>> My state, Washington has teacher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. > Students >>>> are required to take a basic skills test, which we require students > to >>>> take before entering our teacher ed program. Then, if they get an >>>> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take a >>>> test for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing > for, >>>> and the test really asks them questions about grammar. >>>> >>>> Examples: >>>> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill >>>> behind our house. >>>> >>>> The underlined word in the sentence above is an >>>> example of >>>> >>>> (A) a conjunction >>>> >>>> (B) a participle >>>> >>>> (C) a gerund >>>> >>>> (D) an adverb >>>> >>>> We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad. >>>> >>>> The underlined words in the sentence are an example of an error in >>>> >>>> (A) question formation >>>> >>>> (B) relative clause formation >>>> >>>> (C) passive formation >>>> >>>> (D) command formation >>>> >>>> Now I'm careful to use words like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to > use, >>>> because I know they see it on the test. >>>> >>>> Janet >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:53 PM >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase >>>> >>>> Janet, >>>> These are wonderful questions. Much of what I would say Bill > covers, >>>> so >>>> I'll add a few sidenotes. I have struggled through the same > questions >>>> and feel a little more settled in my thinking. >>>> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure than > it >>>> is to put it in the "right" category. So looking closely at these >>>> non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a subject >>>> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the > most >>>> important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call them >>>> clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing >>>> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't like it, > but >>>> it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what the word > refers >>>> to for the people who use it. >>>> I start out with "the elements of the simple clause", so I cover >>>> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say > there >>>> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That > seems >>>> to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and non-restrictive >>>> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in > that >>>> slot, but I don't bring them in right away. >>>> I think you mistakenly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in your >>>> cake >>>> sentence. My guess is you meant "me". I like the multi-functional >>>> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, the >>>> transitivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives > us >>>> processes and participants and circumstances andestablishes > participant >>>> roles. We also have systems in place for construing that event in >>>> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect > object >>>> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing > their >>>> real world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake > by >>>> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the baking.) >>>> This can also give us a way to put different information in the > usual >>>> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for new >>>> information. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for me." >>>> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a cake." "Who baked the > cake? >>>> "The cake was baked by Joe." Students seem to enjoy putting a > clause >>>> through its various permutations and then reflecting on how that >>>> "construes" the process. We can also say something like "Joe baked > all >>>> night", or "Joe baked with great care", not because we have stopped >>>> understanding that "baking" means you bake something and are > probably >>>> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements > are >>>> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" and >>>> "intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex transitive" can be > used >>>> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of a >>>> particular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I think >>>> that's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't > changed, >>>> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the statement. >>>> I have found that most state tests for students have no real >>>> knowledge >>>> content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something > like >>>> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can identify a >>>> participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound sentences from >>>> compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to pick a >>>> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks for >>>> terminology. Language, at least for students, is treated like a >>>> behavior. >>>> Are there teacher tests in your state? >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> How would you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince > named >>>> >>>>> Joe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Do you analyze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a > participle >>>>> phrase modifying the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've >>>>> >>>> always >>>> >>>>> called these non-finite constructions reduced clauses or participle >>>>> clauses, but I have run into a problem. In my grammar class for >>>>> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach noun >>>>> modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, but >>>>> >>>> they >>>> >>>>> really don't know anything about finite and non-finite verbs yet, > nor >>>>> >>>> do >>>> >>>>> they know much about clauses. So this semester, I decided I would >>>>> >>>> just >>>> >>>>> call them participle phrases which modify nouns. But then I was in >>>>> trouble when we got to clauses because I wanted to call then > reduced >>>>> >>>> or >>>> >>>>> non-finite clauses. By that time, the students knew enough to say >>>>> >>>> "Hey >>>> >>>>> wait a minute! Didn't you just tell us those were phrases?" At > least >>>>> >>>> I >>>> >>>>> know they were listening in October. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object complement, or is there a >>>>> better way to label this? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> How about this: Joe baked a cake for me. Can I just go ahead and >>>>> >>>> call >>>> >>>>> 'Joe' an indirect object? It means exactly the same this as Joe > baked >>>>> >>>> me >>>> >>>>> a cake. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is an on-going problem for me, because, even though I try to >>>>> >>>> teach >>>> >>>>> them a pretty straight forward descriptive-structural-functional > view >>>>> >>>> of >>>> >>>>> syntax (Quirk et al is my bible), with a little discussion of >>>>> prescriptivism thrown in so they'll know what to expect when they > get >>>>> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way > to >>>>> analyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They want > to >>>>> know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is gong to > show >>>>> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there > is >>>>> any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach pre-service >>>>> teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have high-stakes >>>>> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents in >>>>> their futures. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Comments? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Janet Castilleja >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>>> >>>> interface >>>> >>>>> at: >>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>>> >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> >>> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------=3D_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > <div>Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut > out=3D > for it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar > and o=3D > ther features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language > ar=3D > ts curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can > sti=3D > ll be hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure > AT=3D > EG members and the discussions here can still be of immense value to > that e=3D > ndeavor). When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, > there w=3D > ill likely be a scramble for as many articulated plans as > possible!</div> > > <div> </div> > <div>John Alexander</div> > <div>Austin, Texas<br><br></div> > <div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig > Hancock =3D > <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a > href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] > edu</a>></span> wrote:<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Richard,<br> Scope and > sequ=3D > ence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to talk about the > rea=3D > sons for that and the difficulties around doing that through ATEG.<br> > My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I > thought =3D > we would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My > pl=3D > an, which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to > break=3D > into subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be > covere=3D > d. We could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard > English,=3D > punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that > wold=3D > be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a > vested i=3D > nterest in the project. There was resistance, though, from > different =3D > sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE, > shoul=3D > d be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization. > Tha=3D > t conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I > don't f=3D > ault anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our > ti=3D > me to construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the > systematic =3D > teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very > thoug=3D > htful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE convention. In > othe=3D > r words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a > sub-group =3D > of NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this > than =3D > we do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.<br> > The other problem came from those at the conference, including the > le=3D > adership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we > have =3D > no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways > of=3D > looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of > peop=3D > le with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views. > &nb=3D > sp;This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the > project, =3D > but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the new > possibilities =3D > in grammar that excite me the most.<br> > But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved > in =3D > the project have written books on the subject, and you can't really > do =3D > that without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What > hap=3D > pens if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? >  =3D > ;I sometimes feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on > in =3D > my thinking because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older > positi=3D > on.<br> > This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most > tend=3D > to have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole, > those=3D > approaches have probably already been written.<br> As many of you > kno=3D > w, much of the conversation about scope and sequence was worked out by > the =3D > New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that group to be in > conflict =3D > (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't even feel > comfortabl=3D > e airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and still am, > nervous a=3D > bout creating a rift in the public grammar community. I didn't want > any=3D > one to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.<br> > The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't > mo=3D > ved forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about > starti=3D > ng it back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.<br> NPG has > th=3D > e benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong contrary > perspe=3D > ctive and not feel uncomfortable about that.<br> > It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the > nec=3D > essity of ATEG endorsing its views.<br> I apologize if I have > mi=3D > srepresented anyone's views or anyone else's views about the > histor=3D > y of the project. I don't think of it as anyone being at fault. > These a=3D > re very predictable difficulties given the nature of the project.<br> > <br>Craig<br><br><br>Richard betting wrote:<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et al. > continued<b=3D > r> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the > innateness=3D > of some grammatical structures is that children can understand the > kinds o=3D > f sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first > grade=3D > r will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, > you=3D > will not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you > wo=3D > n't get a present is very obvious." Another example > results =3D > in the prepositional phrase as subject. "He said that he would > leave a=3D > t nine" might lead to "For him to leave at nine means that > we'=3D > ;ll have to finish our project quickly." I got those kinds of > sentence=3D > s and explanations from my study of generative grammar forty years ago. > Tra=3D > nsformations. The second called the T For To transform.<br> > A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word > groups=3D > phrases or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call > them=3D > one- or two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive > structures,=3D > finite or non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, > complemen=3D > tary or appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, > di- o=3D > r bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and > will s=3D > tudents be able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and > infi=3D > nitives parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are > there=3D > , anyway? And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of > parts=3D > and improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers > conscio=3D > usly and consistently make those connections between theory and > practice? A=3D > re students being asked to write and speak and are they creating > portfolios=3D > of written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they > participatin=3D > g in the assessment process?<br> > <br>I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English > teac=3D > hers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have been > discu=3D > ssed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more than one > gram=3D > matical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves so > much =3D > as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get where > they=3D > are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that they > spend =3D > so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal) background > in=3D > English, what courses should/must all language arts teachers have? > Could w=3D > e agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks (for teachers) > meet t=3D > he content requirement we might create? Is anyone still working on scope > an=3D > d sequence?<br> > <br>Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and > other=3D > issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the > end r=3D > esult seems to be that each person will create his/her own curriculum. > &nbs=3D > p;If English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will, > as=3D > NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of > gram=3D > mar parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.<br> > <br><br><br><br><br><br>On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C > wr=3D > ote:<br><br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et > al.<br><br>Ther=3D > e are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me' > in<=3D > br> > 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the > pronoun=3D > <br>would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started > ou=3D > t as a<br>label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed > to a=3D > ccusative<br> > object."<br><br>There's a major stress point in the traditional > sy=3D > stem, though -- the<br>noun that normally goes with a preposition is > usuall=3D > y called "the object<br>of the preposition," and it can't > be =3D > *both* an indirect object and the<br> > object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional > approach<br>al=3D > ways asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say > either=3D > <br>'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). > Som=3D > e earlier<br> > grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to > be<br>ca=3D > se-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT > more<br>prepo=3D > sitions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled out<br> > the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another > group<br>tr=3D > eated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where > the<br>preposition-=3D > ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless<br>version (so no > in=3D > direct object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for<br> > me'). Some early generative approaches considered the > prepositionless<b=3D > r>version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense > there<=3D > br>were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because > I'=3D > m sure about<br> > those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with > the<br>cons=3D > truction is).<br><br>Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. > Sin=3D > ce specific grammars,<br>particularly older ones, usually adopt one > approac=3D > h but don't mention<br> > that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and > students=3D > <br>to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end > up<br>ima=3D > gining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and > has<br>alway=3D > s been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem.<br> > <br>The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to > V") =3D > presents even<br>more of a terminological muddle. From what I've > seen, =3D > one approach is to<br>just call the whole thing a specialized kind of > infin=3D > itive construction,<br> > treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker, > a<br>=3D > bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for' > pa=3D > rt<br>and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part > intr=3D > oduced by<br> > "for" 'subject-ish'.<br><br>Bill Spruiell<br>Dept. of > Eng=3D > lish<br>Central Michigan University<br><br><br><br>-----Original > Message---=3D > --<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>[mailto:<a > href=3D > =3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" > target=3D3D"_blank">[log in to unmask] > .EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet<br> > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM<br>To: <a > href=3D3D"mailto:ATEG@LIST=3D > SERV.MUOHIO.EDU" > target=3D3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject:=3D > Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I > was =3D > really trying to get at is whether or<br> > not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for > me' =3D > an indirect<br>object, since it seems to be doing the same thing > as &=3D > #39;me' in 'Joe baked<br>me<br>a cake.' I had learned that > prep=3D > ositional phrases can't be major<br> > sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to > be<br>substa=3D > ntially more complex.<br><br>'For me to criticize him would be > foolish.=3D > ' Here 'for me' seems to be<br>the subject of the > infini=3D > tive clause. I know that 'for' constructions<br> > introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call > them<br>preposi=3D > tions?<br><br>I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained > obj=3D > ect<br>complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it > go=3D > es way beyond<br> > what anyone should be required to know.<br><br>My state, Washington has > tea=3D > cher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. Students<br>are required to take > a =3D > basic skills test, which we require students to<br>take before entering > our=3D > teacher ed program. Then, if they get an<br> > endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take > a<br>tes=3D > t for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing > for,<br>and =3D > the test really asks them questions about grammar.<br><br>Examples:<br> > My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill<br>behind our > house.<br=3D >><br>The underlined word in the sentence above is an<br>example > of<br><br>(=3D > A) a conjunction<br><br>(B) a participle<br><br>(C) a gerund<br><br>(D) > an =3D > adverb<br> > <br>We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.<br><br>The > under=3D > lined words in the sentence are an example of an error in<br><br>(A) > =3D > question formation<br><br>(B) relative clause > formation=3D > <br><br>(C) passive formation<br> > <br>(D) command formation<br><br>Now I'm careful to use > wo=3D > rds like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to use,<br>because I > kno=3D > w they see it on the test.<br><br>Janet<br><br>-----Original > Message-----<b=3D > r>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br> > [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" > target=3D3D"_blank">ATEG@=3D > LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<br>Sent: Thursday, > Dece=3D > mber 11, 2008 4:53 PM<br>To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" > ta=3D > rget=3D3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br> > Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Janet,<br> These are wonderful > qu=3D > estions. Much of what I would say Bill covers,<br>so<br>I'll add a > few =3D > sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions<br>and feel a > little=3D > more settled in my thinking.<br> > I think it's so much more important to describe the structure > tha=3D > n it<br>is to put it in the "right" category. So looking > closely =3D > at these<br>non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a > sub=3D > ject<br> > (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the > most=3D > <br>important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call > them<br=3D >>clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing<br> > somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't > like=3D > it, but<br>it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what > the=3D > word refers<br>to for the people who use it.<br> I start out with > &qu=3D > ot;the elements of the simple clause", so I cover<br> > postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say > there<br>=3D > are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That > seems<b=3D > r>to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and > non-restrictive<br> > modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in > that<br>=3D > slot, but I don't bring them in right away.<br> I think you > mistak=3D > enly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in > your<br>cake<br>senten=3D > ce. My guess is you meant "me". I like the > multi-functional<br> > analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, > the<br>transit=3D > ivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives > us<br>processes=3D > and participants and circumstances andestablishes participant<br>roles. > We=3D > also have systems in place for construing that event in<br> > different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect > object<br>=3D > gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing > their<br>re=3D > al world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake > by<b=3D > r> > Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the > baking.)<b=3D > r>This can also give us a way to put different information in the > usual<br>=3D > given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for > new<br>informat=3D > ion. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for > me.&quo=3D > t;<br> > "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a > cake." &=3D > nbsp;"Who baked the cake?<br>"The cake was baked by Joe." > &n=3D > bsp;Students seem to enjoy putting a clause<br>through its various > permutat=3D > ions and then reflecting on how that<br> > "construes" the process. We can also say something like > "Joe=3D > baked all<br>night", or "Joe baked with great care", not > be=3D > cause we have stopped<br>understanding that "baking" means you > ba=3D > ke something and are probably<br> > doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements > are<br>=3D > not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" > and<br>&qu=3D > ot;intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex > trans=3D > itive" can be used<br> > to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of > a<br>partic=3D > ular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I > think<br>th=3D > at's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't > changed=3D > ,<br> > but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the > statement.<br>&nb=3D > sp;I have found that most state tests for students have no > real<br>knowledg=3D > e<br>content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something > like<=3D > br> > "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can > identify=3D > a<br>participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound > sentences=3D > from<br>compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to > pi=3D > ck a<br> > version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks > for<br>ter=3D > minology. Language, at least for students, is treated like > a<br>behavior.<b=3D > r> Are there teacher tests in your state?<br><br>Craig<br><br>How > woul=3D > d you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince named<br> > > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Joe.<br><br><br><br>Do you > analy=3D > ze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle<br>phrase > modifyin=3D > g the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've<br> > </blockquote>always<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">called these non-finite > construc=3D > tions reduced clauses or participle<br>clauses, but I have run into a > probl=3D > em. In my grammar class for<br> > pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach > noun<br=3D >>modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, > but<br></b=3D > lockquote>they<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">really don't know > anything a=3D > bout finite and non-finite verbs yet, nor<br></blockquote>do<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">they know much about clauses. > &n=3D > bsp;So this semester, I decided I would<br></blockquote>just<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">call them participle phrases > whi=3D > ch modify nouns. But then I was in<br>trouble when we got to > clauses =3D > because I wanted to call then reduced<br> > </blockquote>or<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">non-finite clauses. By > tha=3D > t time, the students knew enough to say<br></blockquote>"Hey<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">wait a minute! > Didn't =3D > you just tell us those were phrases?" At > least<br></blockquote>I=3D > <br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">know they were listening in > Octo=3D > ber.<br><br><br><br>Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object > compl=3D > ement, or is there a<br> > better way to label this?<br><br><br><br>How about this: Joe baked > a =3D > cake for me. Can I just go ahead and<br></blockquote>call<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">'Joe' an indirect > object=3D > ? It means exactly the same this as Joe baked<br></blockquote>me<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">a cake.<br><br><br><br>This > is a=3D > n on-going problem for me, because, even though I try > to<br></blockquote>te=3D > ach<br> > > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">them a pretty straight > forward d=3D > escriptive-structural-functional view<br></blockquote>of<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">syntax (Quirk et al is my > bible)=3D > , with a little discussion of<br>prescriptivism thrown in so they'll > kn=3D > ow what to expect when they get<br> > into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way > to<br>a=3D > nalyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They > want =3D > to<br>know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is > gon=3D > g to show<br> > up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there > is<=3D > br>any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach > pre-servic=3D > e<br>teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have > high-stak=3D > es<br> > tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents > in<br>thei=3D > r futures.<br><br><br><br>Comments?<br><br><br><br>Janet > Castilleja<br><br>=3D > <br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's > web<br=3D >> > </blockquote>interface<br> > <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: > 0px 0=3D > px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">at:<br> <a > href=3D3D"h=3D > ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://list=3D > serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's > web s=3D > ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=3D > br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please > visit t=3D > he list's web<br> > interface at:<br> <a > href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=3D > s/ateg.html" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm=3D > l</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit > ATEG=3D > 9;s web site at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.=3D > org/</a><br> > <br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's > web<br=3D >>interface at:<br> <a > href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=3D > es/ateg.html" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.ht=3D > ml</a><br> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's > web s=3D > ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=3D > br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's > web=3D > interface at:<br> > <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > targ=3D > et=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and > sele=3D > ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site > at <=3D > a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br> > </blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the > list=3D > 's web interface at:<br> <a > href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.=3D > edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=3D > es/ateg.html</a><br> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's > web s=3D > ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=3D > br><br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please > vis=3D > it the list's web interface at:<br> > <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > targ=3D > et=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and > sele=3D > ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site > at <=3D > a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br> > </blockquote></div><br> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------=3D_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800 > From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > I think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for =3D > > --0-1483397165-1229292218=3D:13806 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Geoff,=3D0A=3D0AI think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need > for =3D > grammar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language > Arts=3D > umbrella besides just writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and > Thinkng. =3D > For example, I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help > stu=3D > dents understand literary texts (and have written about > this).=3D0A=3D0APaul=3D0A=3D > =3DA0"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an > improbab=3D > le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). > =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A_________________=3D > _______________=3D0AFrom: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>=3D0ATo: > ATEG@=3D > LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=3D0ASent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 > PM=3D0ASubject=3D > : Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=3D0A=3D0AFrom > the =3D > situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context" > crowd, w=3D > hich as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same old > gramma=3D > r rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" name - i.e., one > tha=3D > t seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar > instruction.=3DA0 T=3D > he problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know their > adverb=3D > ials from their adjectivals, but that they don't know how to use the > basic =3D > structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that they for > the m=3D > ost part are capable of.=3DA0 I think this goes back to the previous > discussi=3D > on where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic writers and > ho=3D > w we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing with these > pr=3D > oblems.=3D0A=3D0AGeoff > Layton=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0ADat=3D > e: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800=3D0AFrom: > [log in to unmask]: > Re:=3D > Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=3D0ATo: > ATEG@LISTSERV=3D > .MUOHIO.EDU=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AThis reminds me of the rather curious > observation= > s I > ha=3D > ve had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English > teachi=3D > ng peers=3DA0have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their > studen=3D > ts have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few > of =3D > them have the time or the interest=3DA0to=3DA0get involved in the > conversation =3D > (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I > know =3D > that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as > much=3D > to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than > most o=3D > f my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a > la=3D > ck of time). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems > to =3D > be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at any time > soon.=3DA0=3D0AAlso=3D > , I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps > ri=3D > ghtly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error > correctio=3D > n mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I > be=3D > lieve that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited > more =3D > dynamically into this conversation, change can't > happen.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AWhat > are y=3D > our thoughts & experiences? =3D0A=3DA0=3D0APaul D.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0"If > t= > his were > play'=3D > d upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" > (_Twelfth =3D > Night_ 3.4.127-128). > =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0AFrom=3D > : Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>=3D0ATo: > [log in to unmask]:=3D > Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM=3D0ASubject: Re: > Conservatives!=3D0A=3D0ABo=3D > b,=3D0A=3DA0 I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with > others=3D > . I=3D0Adon't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" > educators.=3D > =3D0AThis sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is > a=3D0A=3D > bad name.=3D0A=3DA0 ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the > conversati=3D > on on list is=3D0Aabout whether something is "correct" or about how to > classi=3D > fy something,=3D0Ausually using structural or traditional grammar as the > lens=3D > . If you are=3D0Ainterested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can > feel =3D > somewhat=3D0Alonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, > but=3D > that=3D0Athere's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there > sho=3D > uld=3D0Abe on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative > group.=3D0A=3DA0 =3D > If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would > wonder=3D0Awhy=3D > we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it > a=3D0Amatte=3D > r of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already > out=3D0Athere?=3D > =3D0A=3DA0 I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can > also t=3D > ry=3D0Ato understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving > forwar=3D > d=3D0Awith a scope and sequence throught ATEG.=3D0A=3DA0 1) NCTE is > opposse= > d > to i=3D > t, and we are an NCTE subgroup.=3D0A=3DA0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to > pers=3D > pectives on gramamr that are=3D0Aalready somewhat established (even if > their =3D > teaching is not.) Frankly, I=3D0Athink we would be much better off if we > went=3D > back to the teaching of=3D0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't > nec=3D > essarily have to do=3D0Athat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, > muc=3D > h of it so much=3D0Amore friendly to applications in reading and > writing.=3D0A=3D > =3D0ACraig>=3D0A=3D0AWhat an=3DA0 interesting way of characterizing views > o= > f > gramma=3D > r that disagree=3D0A> with your own!=3D0A>=3D0A> Craig writes:=3D0A>=3D0A> > = > My own > ten=3D > dency has been to lobby for new=3DA0 ways of looking at grammar, but=3D0A> > ATEG=3D > has long been an organization made=3D0A> up of people with fairly > conservati=3D > ve (not regressive, not by a long=3D0A> shot) views.=3DA0 This was hard on > me b=3D > ecause I felt I had a lot invested in=3D0A> the project, but would be > asked t=3D > o shut out from the conversation the=3D0A> new possibilities in grammar > that =3D > excite me the most.=3D0A>=3D0A> ****=3D0A> Of course, there is no > hostility= > in > ch=3D > aracterizing others views with the=3D0A> term "fairly > conservative."=3D0A>=3D0A> =3D > Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the > nature=3D > =3D0A> of language.=3D0A>=3D0A> Bob Yates, University of Central > Missouri=3D0A>=3D0A>=3D > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface=3D > =3D0A> at:=3D0A>=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=3D0A> a=3D > nd select "Join or leave the list"=3D0A>=3D0A> Visit ATEG's web site at > http://=3D > ateg.org/=3D0A>=3D0A=3D0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit > = > the > li=3D > st's web interface at:=3D0A=3DA0 =3DA0 > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.h=3D > tml=3D0Aand select "Join or leave the list"=3D0A=3D0AVisit ATEG's web site > = > at > htt=3D > p://ateg.org/=3D0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the > list'=3D > s web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > selec=3D > t "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/=3D0A=3D0A_=3D > _______________________________=3D0ASend e-mail faster without improving > your=3D > typing skills. Get your Hotmail=3DAE account. To join or leave this > LISTSERV=3D > list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu=3D > /archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =3D0AVisit ATEG's > web=3D > site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > --0-1483397165-1229292218=3D:13806 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} > --></style></he=3D > ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:verdana, helvetica, > sans-serif;font-size=3D > :10pt"><DIV></DIV>=3D0A<DIV>Geoff,</DIV>=3D0A<DIV> </DIV>=3D0A<DIV>I > think y=3D > ou're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar > instruction i=3D > n connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella besides > jus=3D > t writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Thinkng. For example, I > have f=3D > ound many times that grammatical analysis can help students understand > lite=3D > rary texts (and have written about > this).</DIV>=3D0A<DIV> </DIV>=3D0A<DIV>=3D > Paul<BR> </DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could > condemn =3D > it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ > 3.4.127-128).=3D0A<DIV><BR></DI=3D > V>=3D0A<DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, > sans-s=3D > erif"><BR>=3D0A<DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new > roman, n=3D > ew york, times, serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>=3D0A<HR > SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A<B><=3D > SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton > <write=3D > [log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D > [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">Sent:</SP=3D > AN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN > style=3D3D"FONT-WEI=3D > GHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches > (was: C=3D > onservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>=3D0A<STYLE>=3D0A.hmmessage > P=3D0A{=3D0Amargin:0px;pad=3D > ding:0px;}=3D0Abody.hmmessage=3D0A{=3D0Afont-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;= > }=3D0 > A</=3D > STYLE>=3D0AFrom the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar > in=3D > context" crowd, which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to > teaching t=3D > he same old grammar rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" > na=3D > me - i.e., one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against > grammar=3D > instruction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students > do=3D > n't know their adverbials from their adjectivals, but that they don't > know =3D > how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the > meanin=3D > g that they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes > back =3D > to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural > deficiencies=3D > of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great > difficulti=3D > es dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff > Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>=3D0A<HR i=3D > d=3D3DstopSpelling>=3D0ADate: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: > pdoniger=3D > @SNET.NET<BR>Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: > Conservati=3D > ves!)<BR>To: > [log in to unmask]<BR><BR>=3D0A<STYLE>=3D0A.ExternalClas= > s > DI=3D > V=3D0A{}=3D0A</STYLE>=3D0A=3D0A<DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; > FONT-FAMILY= > : > bookman =3D > old style, new york, times, serif">=3D0A<DIV></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT > face=3D3DVerda=3D > na>This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over > the p=3D > ast ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching > peers hav=3D > e commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have > experi=3D > enced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have > the =3D > time or the interest to get involved in the conversation > (indeed,=3D > may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that > I h=3D > ave too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to > thes=3D > e issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my > pee=3D > rs (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of > ti=3D > me). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be > doing=3D > , it doesn't look like this will change at any time > soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT=3D > face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Also, I think > mos= > t > uf=3D > us at the secondary level seem to believe (and > perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of > erro=3D > r correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and > middle s=3D > chool. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are > recr=3D > uited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't > happen.</FONT><=3D > BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>What are > your=3D > thoughts & experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT > face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> <=3D > BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Paul > D.</FONT><BR>=3D0A<DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT > siz=3D > e=3D3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an > impro=3D > bable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT> > =3D0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=3D0A<=3D > DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, > tim=3D > es, serif"><BR>=3D0A<DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman > old s=3D > tyle, new york, times, serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>=3D0A<HR > SIZE=3D3D1>=3D > =3D0A<B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock > <=3D > [log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">To:</SPAN></=3D > B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">Sent:</=3D > SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN > style=3D3D"FONT-WE=3D > IGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: > Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR>&n=3D > bsp; I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. > I<=3D > BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" > educators.<BR>T=3D > his sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is > a<BR>bad=3D > name.<BR> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the > conversat=3D > ion on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or about how to > clas=3D > sify something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as > the l=3D > ens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you > can f=3D > eel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those > views=3D > , > but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that > ther=3D > e should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative > group.<=3D > BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would > wo=3D > nder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? > Isn't i=3D > t a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already > ou=3D > t<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I can > respect i=3D > t. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the difficulties > involved =3D > in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<BR> > 1) =3D > NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<BR> 2) Most > peop=3D > le on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are<BR>already > somewhat e=3D > stablished (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I<BR>think we would > be=3D > much better off if we went back to the teaching of<BR>grammar I was > given =3D > growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<BR>that. A great > deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly > to=3D > applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What > an =3D > interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that > disagree<BR>> w=3D > ith your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own > tendency=3D > has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>> > AT=3D > EG has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly > cons=3D > ervative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. This > was=3D > hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the project, > but=3D > would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new > possibili=3D > ties in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>> ****<BR>> Of > co=3D > urse, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with > the<BR>>=3D > term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I appreciate such an > ho=3D > nest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>> of > language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central > Missouri<BR>>=3D > ;<BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's > web =3D > interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A > href=3D3D"http://listser=3D > v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D3D_blank > rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://list=3D > serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and select "Join or leave > th=3D > e list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A > href=3D3D"http://ateg.org=3D > /" target=3D3D_blank > rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>T= > o > jo=3D > in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at:<B=3D > R> <A > href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" t=3D > arget=3D3D_blank > rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=3D > </A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site > at=3D > <A href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D_blank > rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.or=3D > g/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please > vis=3D > it the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Jo=3D > in or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>=3D0A<=3D > HR>=3D0ASend e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A > href=3D3D"h=3D > ttp://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_sp > eed=3D > _122008" target=3D3D_blank rel=3D3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=3DAE > account.<= > /A> > To=3D > join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at=3D > : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave t=3D > he list" =3D0A<P>Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></DIV></d=3D > iv></body></html> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > --0-1483397165-1229292218=3D:13806-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:27:01 -0600 > From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > Paul - Yes=3D2C of course you're right! I think that grammar has been so > mar=3D > ginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance to the entire > ra=3D > nge of language arts - that which allows you to write also allows you to > re=3D > ad and all of the other creative acts you mention - including thinking! > In=3D > fact=3D2C I've got an upcoming gig to speak at the College English > Associati=3D > on. Topic - "Thinking in the Context of Grammar"! Should be > interesting. =3D > Any and all advice accepted!Geoff Layton > > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: > Re: =3D > Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: > [log in to unmask] > HIO.EDU > > > > > Geoff=3D2C > =3D20 > I think you're right=3D2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar > in=3D > struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts > umbrella =3D > besides just writing: Reading=3D2C Listening=3D2C Speaking=3D2C and > Thinkng= > . > For =3D > example=3D2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help > stude=3D > nts understand literary texts (and have written about this). > =3D20 > Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an > impr=3D > obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20 > > > > > From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To: > [log in to unmask] > nt: Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in > the g=3D > rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in > context"=3D > crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the > same=3D > old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name > - =3D > i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar > in=3D > struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't > know=3D > their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't know how > to=3D > use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning > that=3D > they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the > prev=3D > ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of > basic w=3D > riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties > dealing =3D > with these problems.Geoff Layton > > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: > Re: =3D > Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: > [log in to unmask] > HIO.EDU > > > > > This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the > past=3D > ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have > commen=3D > ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced > (o=3D > r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time > or =3D > the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't > seem =3D > to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many > oth=3D > er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I > wo=3D > uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long > sile=3D > nces are due not to a lack of interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And > with =3D > the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it > doesn't=3D > look like this will change at any time soon. Also=3D2C I think most uf us > at=3D > the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the > issues =3D > of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should > have b=3D > een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless > eleme=3D > ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into > this c=3D > onversation=3D2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts & > experiences? =3D > Paul D. > "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an > improbab=3D > le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20 > > > > > From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: > [log in to unmask]: S=3D > unday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob= > =3D2C > I=3D > agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. > Idon't l=3D > ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of > re=3D > sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is > a =3D > conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout > whether=3D > something is "correct" or about how to classify something=3D2Cusually > using =3D > structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in > alte=3D > rnative approaches=3D2C as I am=3D2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not > just=3D > that people disagree with those views=3D2C but thatthere's not the sort > of r=3D > obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As > group=3D > s go=3D2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=3D2C it would > make > sen=3D > se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't > the=3D > y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the > grama=3D > mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=3D2C but I > can =3D > respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties > invo=3D > lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE > is =3D > oppossed to it=3D2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG > adhe=3D > re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even > if=3D > their teaching is not.) Frankly=3D2C Ithink we would be much better off > if w=3D > e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we > don'=3D > t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the > 1950's=3D2C=3D > much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and > writing.Cra=3D > ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that > disagre=3D > e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby > for n=3D > ew ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but> ATEG has long been an > organization m=3D > ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=3D2C not by a > long=3D >> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested > in>=3D > the project=3D2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation > the> n=3D > ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of > course=3D2C t=3D > here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term > "fairly =3D > conservative.">> Craig=3D2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of > others v=3D > iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central > Misso=3D > uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web > in=3D > terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and > selec=3D > t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/>To j=3D > oin or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface > at=3D > : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or > leave=3D > the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this > LI=3D > STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.mu=3D > ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit > ATEG'=3D > s web site at http://ateg.org/ > > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your > Hotmail=3D > =3DAE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the > list's=3D > web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select=3D > "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV > lis=3D > t=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=3D > rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > _________________________________________________________________ > You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.=3D20 > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/=3D > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html> > <head> > <style> > .hmmessage P > { > margin:0px=3D3B > padding:0px > } > body.hmmessage > { > font-size: 10pt=3D3B > font-family:Verdana > } > </style> > </head> > <body class=3D3D'hmmessage'> > Paul - Yes=3D2C of course you're right! =3D3B I think that grammar > has =3D > =3D3Bbeen so marginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance > to=3D > the entire range of language arts - that which allows you to write also > al=3D > lows you to read and all of the other =3D3Bcreative acts =3D3Byou > menti=3D > on - including thinking! =3D3B In fact=3D2C I've got an upcoming gig > to > spe=3D > ak at the College English Association. Topic - "Thinking in the Context > of =3D > Grammar"! =3D3B Should be interesting. =3D3B Any and all advice > accepte=3D > d!<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR> > <HR id=3D3DstopSpelling> > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From: > [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D > ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: > ATEG@=3D > LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR> > <STYLE> > .ExternalClass DIV > {=3D3B} > </STYLE> > > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=3D2C > helvetica=3D= > 2C > sans-=3D > serif"> > <DIV></DIV> > <DIV>Geoff=3D2C</DIV> > <DIV> =3D3B</DIV> > <DIV>I think you're right=3D2C but I'd also add that there's a need for > gramm=3D > ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts > umbr=3D > ella besides just writing: Reading=3D2C Listening=3D2C Speaking=3D2C and > Thinkng.=3D > For example=3D2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can > help =3D > students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV> > <DIV> =3D3B</DIV> > <DIV>Paul<BR> =3D3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I > could=3D > condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20 > <DIV><BR></DIV> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=3D2C > helvetica=3D= > 2C > sans-=3D > serif"><BR> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=3D2C new > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2> > <HR SIZE=3D3D1> > <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton > <=3D > [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">To:<=3D > /SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold"=3D >>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 12:58:43 >> PM<BR><B><SPAN > sty=3D > le=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar > tr=3D > enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR> > <STYLE> > .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P > {padding:0px=3D3B} > .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage > {font-size:10pt=3D3Bfont-family:Verdana=3D3B} > </STYLE> > From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in > context"=3D > crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the > same=3D > old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name > - =3D > i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar > in=3D > struction. =3D3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students > don=3D > 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't > know=3D > how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the > meani=3D > ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3D3B I think this goes > ba=3D > ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural > deficienc=3D > ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great > difficu=3D > lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR> > <HR id=3D3DEC_stopSpelling> > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: > [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D > ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: > ATEG@=3D > LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR> > <STYLE> > .ExternalClass DIV > {=3D3B} > </STYLE> > > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"> > <DIV></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious > observation=3D > s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school > English =3D > teaching peers =3D3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching > that t=3D > heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience > of). =3D > Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3D3Bto =3D3Bget > involved=3D > in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't seem to know that the > conversatio=3D > n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and > inte=3D > rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been > mo=3D > re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a > lack o=3D > f interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for > teachers i=3D > ncreasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it doesn't look like this will > change =3D > at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT > face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT=3D > face=3D3DVerdana>Also=3D2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem > to b=3D > elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see > as =3D > one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in > elementary a=3D > nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school > teache=3D > rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=3D2C change can't > ha=3D > ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT > face=3D3DVerdan=3D > a>What are your thoughts &=3D3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT > face=3D3DVerda=3D > na></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR> > <DIV><BR> =3D3B</DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>"If this were play'd upon a > stage > now=3D > =3D2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ > 3.4.127-1=3D > 28).</FONT>=3D20 > <DIV><BR></DIV> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><BR> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2> > <HR SIZE=3D3D1> > <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock > <=3D3Bh=3D > [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">To:</SPAN><=3D > /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">Sent:<=3D > /SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN > style=3D3D"FO=3D > NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: > Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=3D > =3D2C<BR> =3D3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree > with=3D > others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" > educ=3D > ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think > "conservative" =3D > is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3D3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most > of =3D > the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or > abou=3D > t how to classify something=3D2C<BR>usually using structural or > traditional g=3D > rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative > approaches=3D2C a=3D > s I am=3D2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people > disagr=3D > ee with those views=3D2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust > discussio=3D > n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=3D2C > it'=3D > s a conservative group.<BR> =3D3B If that's the case=3D2C it would > make > sen=3D > se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. > Don't=3D > they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement > for t=3D > he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3D3B I don't agree with > that=3D > position=3D2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the > natu=3D > re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and > seque=3D > nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3D3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=3D2C and we are > an N=3D > CTE subgroup.<BR> =3D3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives > on =3D > gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching > is=3D > not.) Frankly=3D2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back > to=3D > the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we don't > necessar=3D > ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=3D2C > much =3D > of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and > writing.<BR><=3D > BR>Craig>=3D3B<BR><BR>What an =3D3B interesting way of > characterizing > vie=3D > ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3D3B with your own!<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>= > =3D3B > Cr=3D > aig writes:<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B My own tendency has been to lobby for > new&n=3D > bsp=3D3B ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but<BR>>=3D3B ATEG has long > been= > an > or=3D > ganization made<BR>>=3D3B up of people with fairly conservative (not > regres=3D > sive=3D2C not by a long<BR>>=3D3B shot) views. =3D3B This was hard > on= > me > be=3D > cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3D3B the project=3D2C but > would > be =3D > asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3D3B new possibilities > in =3D > grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B ****<BR>>=3D3B > O= > f > cour=3D > se=3D2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with > the<BR>>=3D > =3D3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Craig=3D2C I > appreciate s=3D > uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3D3B of > language=3D > .<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central > Missouri<BR>>=3D3B=3D > <BR>>=3D3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the > list's w=3D > eb interface<BR>>=3D3B at:<BR>>=3D3B =3D3B  =3D3B  =3D3B > <A > href=3D3D"h=3D > ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://listser=3D > v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3D3B and select "Join or leave > the=3D > list"<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A > href=3D3D"http://ateg.=3D > org/" rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3D3B<BR><BR>To join or > leave=3D > this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface > at:<BR> =3D > =3D3B  =3D3B <A > href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html= > " > rel=3D > =3D3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and > select=3D > "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A > href=3D3D"http:/=3D > /ateg.org/" rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To > joi=3D > n or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface > at: =3D > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave > the=3D > list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR> > <HR> > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A > href=3D3D"http://=3D > windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12 > 200=3D > 8" rel=3D3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=3DAE account.</A> To join or leave > thi= > s > LI=3D > STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.mu=3D > ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join > or l=3D > eave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http:/=3D > /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the > list"=3D > =3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />You live life > onli=3D > ne. So we put Windows on the web. <a > href=3D3D'http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/1=3D > 27032869/direct/01/' target=3D3D'_new'>Learn more about Windows Live > </a></bo=3D > dy> > </html>=3D > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:28:47 -0600 > From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > PS: Does our exchange fall into the conservative or the liberal > camp?Geoff=3D > Layton > =3D20 > PPS: Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on this. You bring an > acade=3D > mic bent to the discussion that's valuable. > > > > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: > Re: =3D > Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: > [log in to unmask] > HIO.EDU > > > > > Geoff=3D2C > =3D20 > I think you're right=3D2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar > in=3D > struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts > umbrella =3D > besides just writing: Reading=3D2C Listening=3D2C Speaking=3D2C and > Thinkng= > . > For =3D > example=3D2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help > stude=3D > nts understand literary texts (and have written about this). > =3D20 > Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an > impr=3D > obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20 > > > > > From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To: > [log in to unmask] > nt: Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in > the g=3D > rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in > context"=3D > crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the > same=3D > old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name > - =3D > i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar > in=3D > struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't > know=3D > their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't know how > to=3D > use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning > that=3D > they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the > prev=3D > ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of > basic w=3D > riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties > dealing =3D > with these problems.Geoff Layton > > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: > Re: =3D > Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To: > [log in to unmask] > HIO.EDU > > > > > This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the > past=3D > ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have > commen=3D > ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced > (o=3D > r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time > or =3D > the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't > seem =3D > to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many > oth=3D > er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I > wo=3D > uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long > sile=3D > nces are due not to a lack of interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And > with =3D > the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it > doesn't=3D > look like this will change at any time soon. Also=3D2C I think most uf us > at=3D > the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the > issues =3D > of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should > have b=3D > een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless > eleme=3D > ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into > this c=3D > onversation=3D2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts & > experiences? =3D > Paul D. > "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an > improbab=3D > le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20 > > > > > From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To: > [log in to unmask]: S=3D > unday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob= > =3D2C > I=3D > agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. > Idon't l=3D > ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of > re=3D > sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is > a =3D > conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout > whether=3D > something is "correct" or about how to classify something=3D2Cusually > using =3D > structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in > alte=3D > rnative approaches=3D2C as I am=3D2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not > just=3D > that people disagree with those views=3D2C but thatthere's not the sort > of r=3D > obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As > group=3D > s go=3D2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=3D2C it would > make > sen=3D > se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't > the=3D > y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the > grama=3D > mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=3D2C but I > can =3D > respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties > invo=3D > lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE > is =3D > oppossed to it=3D2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG > adhe=3D > re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even > if=3D > their teaching is not.) Frankly=3D2C Ithink we would be much better off > if w=3D > e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we > don'=3D > t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the > 1950's=3D2C=3D > much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and > writing.Cra=3D > ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that > disagre=3D > e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby > for n=3D > ew ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but> ATEG has long been an > organization m=3D > ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=3D2C not by a > long=3D >> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested > in>=3D > the project=3D2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation > the> n=3D > ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of > course=3D2C t=3D > here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term > "fairly =3D > conservative.">> Craig=3D2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of > others v=3D > iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central > Misso=3D > uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web > in=3D > terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and > selec=3D > t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/>To j=3D > oin or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface > at=3D > : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or > leave=3D > the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this > LI=3D > STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.mu=3D > ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit > ATEG'=3D > s web site at http://ateg.org/ > > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your > Hotmail=3D > =3DAE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the > list's=3D > web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select=3D > "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV > lis=3D > t=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=3D > rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > _________________________________________________________________ > Send e-mail anywhere. No map=3D2C no compass. > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_a > nyw=3D > here_122008=3D > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html> > <head> > <style> > .hmmessage P > { > margin:0px=3D3B > padding:0px > } > body.hmmessage > { > font-size: 10pt=3D3B > font-family:Verdana > } > </style> > </head> > <body class=3D3D'hmmessage'> > PS: =3D3B Does our =3D3Bexchange fall into the conservative or the > libe=3D > ral camp?<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR> >  =3D3B<BR> > PPS: =3D3B Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on > this. =3D3BYou =3D > bring an academic bent to the discussion that's > valuable.<BR><BR><BR><BR><B=3D > R> > > <HR id=3D3DstopSpelling> > <BR> > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From: > [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D > ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: > ATEG@=3D > LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR><BR> > <STYLE> > .ExternalClass DIV > {=3D3B} > </STYLE> > > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=3D2C > helvetica=3D= > 2C > sans-=3D > serif"> > <DIV></DIV> > <DIV>Geoff=3D2C</DIV> > <DIV> =3D3B</DIV> > <DIV>I think you're right=3D2C but I'd also add that there's a need for > gramm=3D > ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts > umbr=3D > ella besides just writing: Reading=3D2C Listening=3D2C Speaking=3D2C and > Thinkng.=3D > For example=3D2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can > help =3D > students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV> > <DIV> =3D3B</DIV> > <DIV>Paul<BR> =3D3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I > could=3D > condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20 > <DIV><BR></DIV> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=3D2C > helvetica=3D= > 2C > sans-=3D > serif"><BR> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=3D2C new > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2> > <HR SIZE=3D3D1> > <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton > <=3D > [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">To:<=3D > /SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold"=3D >>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 12:58:43 >> PM<BR><B><SPAN > sty=3D > le=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar > tr=3D > enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR> > <STYLE> > .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P > {padding:0px=3D3B} > .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage > {font-size:10pt=3D3Bfont-family:Verdana=3D3B} > </STYLE> > From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in > context"=3D > crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the > same=3D > old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name > - =3D > i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar > in=3D > struction. =3D3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students > don=3D > 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't > know=3D > how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the > meani=3D > ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3D3B I think this goes > ba=3D > ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural > deficienc=3D > ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great > difficu=3D > lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR> > <HR id=3D3DEC_stopSpelling> > Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From: > [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D > ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To: > ATEG@=3D > LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR> > <STYLE> > .ExternalClass DIV > {=3D3B} > </STYLE> > > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"> > <DIV></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious > observation=3D > s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school > English =3D > teaching peers =3D3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching > that t=3D > heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience > of). =3D > Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3D3Bto =3D3Bget > involved=3D > in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't seem to know that the > conversatio=3D > n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and > inte=3D > rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been > mo=3D > re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a > lack o=3D > f interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for > teachers i=3D > ncreasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it doesn't look like this will > change =3D > at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT > face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT=3D > face=3D3DVerdana>Also=3D2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem > to b=3D > elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see > as =3D > one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in > elementary a=3D > nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school > teache=3D > rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=3D2C change can't > ha=3D > ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT > face=3D3DVerdan=3D > a>What are your thoughts &=3D3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT > face=3D3DVerda=3D > na></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR> > <DIV><BR> =3D3B</DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>"If this were play'd upon a > stage > now=3D > =3D2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ > 3.4.127-1=3D > 28).</FONT>=3D20 > <DIV><BR></DIV> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><BR> > <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C > ne= > w > york=3D > =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2> > <HR SIZE=3D3D1> > <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock > <=3D3Bh=3D > [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">To:</SPAN><=3D > /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: > bold">Sent:<=3D > /SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN > style=3D3D"FO=3D > NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: > Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=3D > =3D2C<BR> =3D3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree > with=3D > others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" > educ=3D > ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think > "conservative" =3D > is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3D3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most > of =3D > the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or > abou=3D > t how to classify something=3D2C<BR>usually using structural or > traditional g=3D > rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative > approaches=3D2C a=3D > s I am=3D2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people > disagr=3D > ee with those views=3D2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust > discussio=3D > n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=3D2C > it'=3D > s a conservative group.<BR> =3D3B If that's the case=3D2C it would > make > sen=3D > se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. > Don't=3D > they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement > for t=3D > he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3D3B I don't agree with > that=3D > position=3D2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the > natu=3D > re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and > seque=3D > nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3D3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=3D2C and we are > an N=3D > CTE subgroup.<BR> =3D3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives > on =3D > gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching > is=3D > not.) Frankly=3D2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back > to=3D > the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we don't > necessar=3D > ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=3D2C > much =3D > of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and > writing.<BR><=3D > BR>Craig>=3D3B<BR><BR>What an =3D3B interesting way of > characterizing > vie=3D > ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3D3B with your own!<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>= > =3D3B > Cr=3D > aig writes:<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B My own tendency has been to lobby for > new&n=3D > bsp=3D3B ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but<BR>>=3D3B ATEG has long > been= > an > or=3D > ganization made<BR>>=3D3B up of people with fairly conservative (not > regres=3D > sive=3D2C not by a long<BR>>=3D3B shot) views. =3D3B This was hard > on= > me > be=3D > cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3D3B the project=3D2C but > would > be =3D > asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3D3B new possibilities > in =3D > grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B ****<BR>>=3D3B > O= > f > cour=3D > se=3D2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with > the<BR>>=3D > =3D3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Craig=3D2C I > appreciate s=3D > uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3D3B of > language=3D > .<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central > Missouri<BR>>=3D3B=3D > <BR>>=3D3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the > list's w=3D > eb interface<BR>>=3D3B at:<BR>>=3D3B =3D3B  =3D3B  =3D3B > <A > href=3D3D"h=3D > ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://listser=3D > v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3D3B and select "Join or leave > the=3D > list"<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A > href=3D3D"http://ateg.=3D > org/" rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3D3B<BR><BR>To join or > leave=3D > this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface > at:<BR> =3D > =3D3B  =3D3B <A > href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html= > " > rel=3D > =3D3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and > select=3D > "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A > href=3D3D"http:/=3D > /ateg.org/" rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To > joi=3D > n or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface > at: =3D > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave > the=3D > list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR> > <HR> > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A > href=3D3D"http://=3D > windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12 > 200=3D > 8" rel=3D3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=3DAE account.</A> To join or leave > thi= > s > LI=3D > STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.mu=3D > ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join > or l=3D > eave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at: > http:/=3D > /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the > list"=3D > =3D20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail > anywhe=3D > re. No map=3D2C no compass. <a > href=3D3D'http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail=3D > ?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008' target=3D3D'_new'>Get > your =3D > Hotmail=3DAE account now.</a></body> > </html>=3D > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_-- > > ----------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:40:33 -0500 > From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Here's a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to use towards the end of > th=3D > e semester in my undergrad grammar course. > > With how Sad Steps, O Moon > > Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586) > > > With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb'st the skies, > How silently, and with how wan a face! > What! May it be that even in heav'nly place > That busy archer his sharp arrows tries? > 5 Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes > Can judge of love, thou feel'st a lover's case. > I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace > To me, that feel the like, thy state descries. > > Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me, > 10 Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit? > Are beauties there as proud as here they be? > Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet > Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess? > Do they call virtue there ungratefulness? > > I would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they > cou=3D > ld use a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of "that" that would > no=3D > t occur in Modern English, "if that" in l.5, where "that" is used with a > su=3D > bordinating conjunction in a way that was common in Early Modern > English. =3D > I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time with ll.3-4, 7-8, > 12-13.=3D > We would then do a grammatical analysis, looking especially at verb > compl=3D > ementation (constituents licensed by the verb), order of constituents, > and =3D > voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, and at that point they > were =3D > able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the irony Sydney employs. > T=3D > he poem is challenging, but students frequently commented afterwards how > us=3D > eful they found grammatical analysis in other poetry they read, and > occasio=3D > nally in prose. Throughout the semester I had had them find in > newspapers =3D > and magazines examples of structures and functions we were studying at > that=3D > time, so they were already beginning to think in terms of applying > grammat=3D > ical analysis to what they were reading. > > Herb > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask] > OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger > Sent: 2008-12-14 11:28 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) > > This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the > past=3D > ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have > commen=3D > ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced > (o=3D > r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time > or =3D > the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't seem > to=3D > know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many > other=3D > pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I > woul=3D > d like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long > silenc=3D > es are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with > the =3D > work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't > look =3D > like this will change at any time soon. > > > > Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and > perhap=3D > s rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error > corre=3D > ction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle > school. =3D > I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are > recruited m=3D > ore dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen. > > > > What are your thoughts & experiences? > > > > Paul D. > > > "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an > improbable =3D > fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). > > > ________________________________ > From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM > Subject: Re: Conservatives! > > Bob, > I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I > don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators. > This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a > bad name. > ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list > is > about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something, > usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are > interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat > lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that > there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should > be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group. > If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder > why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a > matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out > there? > I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try > to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward > with a scope and sequence throught ATEG. > 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup. > 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are > already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I > think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of > grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do > that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much > more friendly to applications in reading and writing. > > Craig> > > What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that > disagree >> with your own! >> >> Craig writes: >> >> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, > bu=3D > t >> ATEG has long been an organization made >> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long >> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested > in >> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the >> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most. >> >> **** >> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with > the >> term "fairly conservative." >> >> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the > natur=3D > e >> of language. >> >> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interfac=3D > e >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface =3D > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface =3D > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave=3D > the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html xmlns:v=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" > xmlns:o=3D3D"urn:schemas-micr=3D > osoft-com:office:office" > xmlns:w=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =3D > xmlns:m=3D3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" > xmlns=3D3D"http:=3D > //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> > > <head> > <meta http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; > charset=3D3Dus-ascii"> > <meta name=3D3DGenerator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered > medium)"> > <!--[if !mso]> > <style> > v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > </style> > <![endif]--> > <style> > <!-- > /* Font Definitions */ > @font-face > {font-family:"Cambria Math"; > panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Calibri; > panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Tahoma; > panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Verdana; > panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:"Bookman Old Style"; > panose-1:2 5 6 4 5 5 5 2 2 4;} > /* Style Definitions */ > p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal > {margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} > h1 > {mso-style-link:"Heading 1 Char"; > margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > page-break-after:avoid; > font-size:14.0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; > font-weight:normal;} > a:link, span.MsoHyperlink > {mso-style-priority:99; > color:blue; > text-decoration:underline;} > a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {mso-style-priority:99; > color:purple; > text-decoration:underline;} > p > {mso-style-priority:99; > mso-margin-top-alt:auto; > margin-right:0in; > mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; > margin-left:0in; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} > span.EmailStyle18 > {mso-style-type:personal-reply; > font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D;} > span.Heading1Char > {mso-style-name:"Heading 1 Char"; > mso-style-link:"Heading 1"; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";} > .MsoChpDefault > {mso-style-type:export-only; > font-size:10.0pt;} > @page Section1 > {size:8.5in 11.0in; > margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} > div.Section1 > {page:Section1;} > --> > </style> > <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> > <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D3D"edit" spidmax=3D3D"1026" /> > </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> > <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D3D"edit"> > <o:idmap v:ext=3D3D"edit" data=3D3D"1" /> > </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> > </head> > > <body lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dpurple> > > <div class=3D3DSection1> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D > "sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D'>Here’s a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to > use > towards the end of the semester in my undergrad grammar > course.<o:p></o:p><=3D > /span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D > "sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <h1><span style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt'>With how Sad Steps, O > Moon<o:p></o:p><=3D > /span></h1> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sir Philip Sidney > (1554-1586)<o:p></o:p><=3D > /span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>With how sad steps, O Moon, thou > climb’st the skies,<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>How silently, and with how wan a > face!<o:=3D > p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What! May it be that even in > heav’nly place<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>That busy archer his sharp arrows > tries?<=3D > o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'>5 > Sure, > if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Can judge of love, thou feel’st > a > lover’s case.<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I read it in thy looks, thy languisht > gra=3D > ce<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To me, that feel the like, thy state > desc=3D > ries.<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Then, ev’n of fellowship, O > Moon, t=3D > ell > me,<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'>10 Is > constant love deem’d there but want of wit?<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Are beauties there as proud as here > they =3D > be?<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they above love to be lov’d, > and=3D > yet<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Those lovers scorn whom that love doth > possess?<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D > .0pt; > font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they call virtue there > ungratefulness?=3D > <o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'>I > would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they > could=3D > use > a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of “that” > tha=3D > t > would not occur in Modern English, “if that” in l.5, where > R=3D > 20;that” > is used with a subordinating conjunction in a way that was common in > Early > Modern English. I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time > wi=3D > th > ll.3-4, 7-8, 12-13. We would then do a grammatical analysis, > looking > especially at verb complementation (constituents licensed by the verb), > ord=3D > er > of constituents, and voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, > an=3D > d at > that point they were able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the > iro=3D > ny > Sydney employs. The poem is challenging, but students frequently > commented afterwards how useful they found grammatical analysis in other > po=3D > etry > they read, and occasionally in prose. Throughout the semester I > had h=3D > ad > them find in newspapers and magazines examples of structures and > functions =3D > we > were studying at that time, so they were already beginning to think in > term=3D > s of > applying grammatical analysis to what they were > reading.<o:p></o:p></span><=3D > /p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D > ans-serif"'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D > "sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D > "sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <div> > > <div style=3D3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt > 0in =3D > 0in 0in'> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=3D > ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly > for =3D > the > Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On > Behalf =3D > Of </b>Paul > E. Doniger<br> > <b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 11:28<br> > <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> > <b>Subject:</b> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: > Conservatives!)<=3D > o:p></o:p></span></p> > > </div> > > </div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> > > <div> > > <div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Thi=3D > s > reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past > ten > years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have > commen=3D > ted > on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (or > se=3D > em > to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or the > interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may > don't s=3D > eem > to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many > oth=3D > er > pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I > would > like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long > silences=3D > are > due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work > lo=3D > ad > for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like > this =3D > will > change at any time soon.</span><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old > Styl=3D > e","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> > > </div> > > <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old > Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=3D >></span></p> > > <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Also, I think most > uf=3D > us at > the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the > issues o=3D > f > grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have > been > dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless > elementar=3D > y > and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this > conversation, change can't happen.</span><span > style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookma=3D > n Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old > Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=3D >></span></p> > > <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>What are your > thought=3D > s > & experiences? </span><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old > Style","s=3D > erif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old > Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=3D >></span></p> > > <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Paul > D.</span><span > style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old > Style","serif"=3D > '><br> > <o:p></o:p></span></p> > > </div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman O=3D > ld Style","serif"'>"If > this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable > fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span > style=3D3D'font-fami=3D > ly: > "Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p> > > <div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old > Style","serif"=3D > '><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > </div> > > <div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old > Style","serif"=3D > '><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > > <div> > > <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter > style=3D3D'text-align:center'><sp= > an > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> > > <hr size=3D3D1 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter> > > </span></div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=3D > ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span > style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Craig > Hancock > <[log in to unmask]><br> > <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> > <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<br> > <b>Subject:</b> Re: Conservatives!<br> > </span><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><br> > Bob,<br> > I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with > others. =3D > I<br> > don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" > educator=3D > s.<br> > This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think > "conservative" =3D > is a<br> > bad name.<br> > ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on > lis=3D > t is<br> > about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify > something,<br> > usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you > are<br> > interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat<br> > lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but > that<br> > there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there > should<br> > be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.<br> > If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would > wonde=3D > r<br> > why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it > a<br> > matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already > out<br> > there?<br> > I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can > also t=3D > ry<br> > to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving > forward<br> > with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<br> > 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<br> > 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that > are<br=3D >> > already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, > I<br=3D >> > think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of<br> > grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<br> > that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<br> > more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<br> > <br> > Craig><br> > <br> > What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that > disag=3D > ree<br> > > with your own!<br> > ><br> > > Craig writes:<br> > ><br> > > My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at > grammar, but<br> > > ATEG has long been an organization made<br> > > up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a > long<b=3D > r> > > shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot > inve=3D > sted > in<br> > > the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation > the<=3D > br> > > new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<br> > ><br> > > ****<br> > > Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views > with t=3D > he<br> > > term "fairly conservative."<br> > ><br> > > Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the > na=3D > ture<br> > > of language.<br> > ><br> > > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri<br> > ><br> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > inter=3D > face<br> > > at:<br> > > <a > href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=3D > g.html" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br> > > and select "Join or leave the list"<br> > ><br> > > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D3D"_blank=3D > ">http://ateg.org/</a><br> > ><br> > <br> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface =3D > at:<br> > <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br> > <br> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D3D"_blank">htt=3D > p://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> > > </div> > > </div> > > </div> > > <p class=3D3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit > the =3D > list's > web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select > "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> > > <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p> > > </div> > > </body> > > </html> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_-- > > ----------------------------- > > End of ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) > *********************************************************** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > = > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------------------------------ > > End of ATEG Digest - 15 Dec 2008 - Special issue (#2008-267) > ************************************************************ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/