I find myself making this same sort of mistake. My intuition is that my mind has changed course part-way through the sentence -- it's too long for short-term memory. I discover the mistake on a re-reading of the first draft and have to rewrite it. Maybe the students don't take the time to do more than a first draft of their writing. I think, at least at my stage of writing skills, it is simply carelessness. Maybe we are overanalyzing this one. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:32 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Quick note on education and linguistic theory (was RE: Correct) I spend a lot of time reading placement and course-exit essays at our small university. Almost daily, I see problem sentences of the sort mentioned at some point in this thread. Below are some examples from yesterday: 'In the first passage by Elizabeth Wong talks about her childhood being taken from her and replaced by schooling.' 'In the article, "A Dangerous Fat and Its Risky Alternatives" by Michael Mason, talks about the chances we take when eating at a restaurant.' 'In the article "A Dangerous Fat and Its Risky Alternatives," by Michael Mason, gives us information about restaurants and their hazards, but says they don't compare to the danger of trans fats in partially hydrogenated vegetable oils.' 'As the article entitled "Don't Judge Me by My Tights" written by Sascha Radetsky emphasizes importance of stepping outside your comfort zone.' It's probably obvious that we are trying to teach them to write attribution sentences. These sentences sound so clearly wrong to my ear (as well as violating rules of traditional grammar - but that wouldn't matter to me if it worked), but I see this type of error so frequently, even after extensive teaching, that it seems to me that there must be something about it that seems correct. Or is it simply a matter of students who have not yet mastered a structure being in a transitional learning stage? While a discussion of theories of why this happens is interesting, are there ideas about how to help students get past this? Janet Castilleja -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:35 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Quick note on education and linguistic theory (was RE: Correct) Craig, You write statements about theories of grammar that you really haven't examined yourself. More seriously, you write things like the following: Cognitive grammar may be easy to disdain if you try to reduce it to some sort of shallow position. You should learn about it first and then measure it later. It is not very likely that will happen because you clearly are satisfied with a formal approach and not at all open to other possibilities, which you seem poised to attack, not curious about understanding. My main concern about that is that it will shut off talk on list and deny us the chance to explore alternative approaches. People have taken the time to privately tell me they want me to continue. If that's not a widespread view, I'll stop. You have no idea what I have read and haven't read. My concern, and I assume the concern of everyone on this list, is trying to understand the development of writing. I have tried to share how my understanding of language helps me to understand how developing writers do what they do. As best as I remember, your claims about cognitive grammar rest on the claim it is an alternative to formal approaches. I would expect someday to read how assumptions of cognitive grammar help teachers understand why their students do what they do. So far, your contributions here rest at such a high level of generality I have no idea what insights cognitive grammar provides to teachers. Of course, we agree on the following: Where you and I agree, I think, (we should do that more, by the way), is that language users will use structures awkwardly when they are first using them. But I go further. Developing writers, either for lack of knowledge or constraints on cognitive capacity, not only use "structures awkwardly" but create innovative structures. Mixed constructions, from the writer's perspective, are not a "performance error" but the result of various principles. Jim Kenkel and I have several papers describing what those principles are to explain various innovative structures in developing writer texts. As I noted in my last post, you teach where the student is and not where you think this student should be. Complex noun phrases in the SUBJECT position show up late for a variety of reasons and anything you cite from a cognitive or functional perspective would be the same as from an innate perspective. Jim Kenkel and I have tried to use this fact for understanding why a writer produces mixed constructions. The fact that complex noun phrases don't show up until 11 or 12 may be easier to explain from a cognitive or functional position than it would from an innatist view. Functional grammar, in fact, makes a great deal of that. They are certainly far more prevalent in writing than they are in speech, very important in the technical disciplines, and they make large cognitive demands on the language user. . . . Cognitive grammar is not going to go away, even if I explain it awkwardly or if you explain why you have reservations about it. **** Again, please understand my comments here. If cognitive grammar must be considered, then provide us with specifics on how it is useful in understanding what developing writers do. It is the lack of specificity in your claims (and this post is one more example), that leads me to write what I do. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/