Geoff,

I think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella besides just writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Thinkng. For example, I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help students understand literary texts (and have written about this).

Paul
 "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). 




________________________________
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 PM
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)

From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context" crowd, which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same old grammar rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" name - i.e., one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar instruction.  The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know their adverbials from their adjectivals, but that they don't know how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that they for the most part are capable of.  I think this goes back to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing with these problems.

Geoff Layton



________________________________
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
To: [log in to unmask]


This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at any time soon. 
Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.
 
What are your thoughts & experiences? 
 
Paul D.


 "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). 




________________________________
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM
Subject: Re: Conservatives!

Bob,
  I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
bad name.
  ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is
about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
  If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
there?
  I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try
to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
  1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
  2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
more friendly to applications in reading and writing.

Craig>

What an  interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree
> with your own!
>
> Craig writes:
>
> My own tendency has been to lobby for new  ways of looking at grammar, but
> ATEG has long been an organization made
> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
> shot) views.  This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in
> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>
> ****
> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with the
> term "fairly conservative."
>
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the nature
> of language.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
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>

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