Here’s a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to use towards the end of the semester in my undergrad grammar course.

 

With how Sad Steps, O Moon

 

Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586)

 

 

With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb’st the skies,

How silently, and with how wan a face!

What!  May it be that even in heav’nly place

That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?

5          Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes

Can judge of love, thou feel’st a lover’s case.

I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace

To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.

 

Then, ev’n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,

10        Is constant love deem’d there but want of wit?

Are beauties there as proud as here they be?

Do they above love to be lov’d, and yet

Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?

Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?

 

I would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they could use a dictionary.  The poem contains an instance of “that” that would not occur in Modern English, “if that” in l.5, where “that” is used with a subordinating conjunction in a way that was common in Early Modern English.  I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time with ll.3-4, 7-8, 12-13.  We would then do a grammatical analysis, looking especially at verb complementation (constituents licensed by the verb), order of constituents, and voice.  Then they would do another paraphrase, and at that point they were able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the irony Sydney employs.  The poem is challenging, but students frequently commented afterwards how useful they found grammatical analysis in other poetry they read, and occasionally in prose.  Throughout the semester I had had them find in newspapers and magazines examples of structures and functions we were studying at that time, so they were already beginning to think in terms of applying grammatical analysis to what they were reading.

 

Herb

 

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: 2008-12-14 11:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)

 

This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at any time soon.

 

Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.

 

What are your thoughts & experiences?

 

Paul D.


 

"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).

 

 

From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM
Subject: Re: Conservatives!

Bob,
  I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
bad name.
  ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is
about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
  If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
there?
  I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try
to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
  1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
  2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
more friendly to applications in reading and writing.

Craig>

What an  interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree
> with your own!
>
> Craig writes:
>
> My own tendency has been to lobby for new  ways of looking at grammar, but
> ATEG has long been an organization made
> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
> shot) views.  This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in
> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>
> ****
> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with the
> term "fairly conservative."
>
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the nature
> of language.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

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