In an ironic sort of way.
I just read Paul's post "before coffee." I read "were-subjunctive" in the
same way one would read "were-wolf," and had to re-read the entire thing
once I figured out which were was meant to be where.
Sad, really. I had an entire humorous off-thread about whether or not
students could use silver to defeat subjunctives, and how teachers could
show them how to recognize subjunctives even before the full moon. Yes, I
really did.
Seriously, now - I understand calling a subjunctive using "if" a
"hypothetical," because it is precisely that, but my concern would be that
students would misapply their "weres" if we called it a "were-subjunctive"
in the classroom. Is there a way we can make this case more clearly?
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
Quirk, et al, (_A Grammar of Contemporary English_. London: Longman, 1972:
76-77), call the subjunctive using "if" the "were-subjunctive" (which is a
conditional form, too, I guess -- at least, I seem to remember learning it
as the "conditional tense" -- of course, it really isn't a tense at all),
saying it is "hypothetical in meaning." I'm not sure what makes it
hypothetical at all; it seems quite real to me. They also say that it is
restricted to one form ("were" of course) and is only used in the first &
third person (singular past forms), as in "If Ed were here, we could discuss
the subjunctive mood."
Generally, they also suggest that the subjunctive isn't an important
category in English (at least not any more), whatever that means. What makes
a form 'important'? They also identify two other forms of the subjunctive
(Mandative & Formulaic), but I am still trying to sort out the differences.
On Ed's other comments, I say, "Heaven forbid" that a teacher should
"correct" a student's use of the subjunctive; so few students know to use it
any more. I find myself trying to get them to use it! It's such a nicely
subtle and rich resource. I mourn its loss.
Oh, well, "so be it!"
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
_____
From: Edward Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 3:22:46 PM
Subject: Subjunctives - help wanted
In KISS grammar, I have to deal with subjunctives, primarily because some
(not all) teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he were here, I'd ask
him" as containing a subject/verb agreement error. From my perspective,
students do not need to learn the concept before seventh grade. (See KISS
Level 2.1.7 at
http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table)
But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not sure of how I want to
handle them. The nature of subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen some
grammars that consider "If" causes as subjunctives. How many members of this
list would agree?
Can I assume that "had" constructions, such as "He we but world enough and
time" are also subjunctives.
My basic understanding was that subjunctives indicate something contrary to
fact, but "if" clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now see it, the
confusion may result from differences in the three basic assumptions about
definitions--meaning, form, and function.
Comments will be appreciated.
Ed
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