John-
I think I'm with you in just calling them "subjunctive," at least for now.
I imagine that part of the problem is that same old saw; at least here in
Connecticut, kids just don't get that much grammar instruction before they
get to the university level, and I find that if I get too complex...I really
am teaching them a new language, and many get lost. Even the "best and
brightest."
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
Patty, I've firmly stayed away from breaking down the subjunctives into
their various sub-types described by grammarians like Quirk et al. There are
times when I feel uneasy about simplifying material, but this isn't one of
them. The distinction between the types of subjunctive that Paul describes,
in my opinion, simply isn't meaningful enough in English to teach at
anything but an advanced level (by meaningful I suppose I mean "active" in a
way, like affecting the syntax or morphology). I'm open to having my mind
changed about that though.
In the meantime, I just teach all of them as the subjunctive. Maybe that's
just the easy way out, which I usually find a poor choice. I'm sticking to
it for now though!
John
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
In an ironic sort of way.
I just read Paul's post "before coffee." I read "were-subjunctive" in the
same way one would read "were-wolf," and had to re-read the entire thing
once I figured out which were was meant to be where.
Sad, really. I had an entire humorous off-thread about whether or not
students could use silver to defeat subjunctives, and how teachers could
show them how to recognize subjunctives even before the full moon. Yes, I
really did.
Seriously, now - I understand calling a subjunctive using "if" a
"hypothetical," because it is precisely that, but my concern would be that
students would misapply their "weres" if we called it a "were-subjunctive"
in the classroom. Is there a way we can make this case more clearly?
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
Quirk, et al, (_A Grammar of Contemporary English_. London: Longman, 1972:
76-77), call the subjunctive using "if" the "were-subjunctive" (which is a
conditional form, too, I guess -- at least, I seem to remember learning it
as the "conditional tense" -- of course, it really isn't a tense at all),
saying it is "hypothetical in meaning." I'm not sure what makes it
hypothetical at all; it seems quite real to me. They also say that it is
restricted to one form ("were" of course) and is only used in the first &
third person (singular past forms), as in "If Ed were here, we could discuss
the subjunctive mood."
Generally, they also suggest that the subjunctive isn't an important
category in English (at least not any more), whatever that means. What makes
a form 'important'? They also identify two other forms of the subjunctive
(Mandative & Formulaic), but I am still trying to sort out the differences.
On Ed's other comments, I say, "Heaven forbid" that a teacher should
"correct" a student's use of the subjunctive; so few students know to use it
any more. I find myself trying to get them to use it! It's such a nicely
subtle and rich resource. I mourn its loss.
Oh, well, "so be it!"
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
_____
From: Edward Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 3:22:46 PM
Subject: Subjunctives - help wanted
In KISS grammar, I have to deal with subjunctives, primarily because some
(not all) teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he were here, I'd ask
him" as containing a subject/verb agreement error. From my perspective,
students do not need to learn the concept before seventh grade. (See KISS
Level 2.1.7 at
http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table)
But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not sure of how I want to
handle them. The nature of subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen some
grammars that consider "If" causes as subjunctives. How many members of this
list would agree?
Can I assume that "had" constructions, such as "He we but world enough and
time" are also subjunctives.
My basic understanding was that subjunctives indicate something contrary to
fact, but "if" clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now see it, the
confusion may result from differences in the three basic assumptions about
definitions--meaning, form, and function.
Comments will be appreciated.
Ed
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