Scott Catledge Professor Emeritus Colm Dubh H.E. -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:00 AM I know that many, if not most of us tend to get a bit colloquial in email; however, seeing the phrase "I agree with Janet calling" in lieu of "I agree with Janet's calling" leads me to ask whether the sentence has a typo or has the current teaching of English grammar dropped the usage of possessive before gerund. I am rooting for the typo: I make enough of those myself. At work I never signed off on a paper until I saw it in hard copy. One would not believe the errors that I caught just in my own work. My favorite was a comma in a legal paper specifying exactly the quality and amount of work to be performed by a contractor on a multimillion dollar contract that would have released the contractor from any obligation to comply with the performance standards that governed the contract. Both the contact specialist and the federal lawyer objected until I asked them to sign an acknowledgement that they had read my warning and chose to disregard it. Scott To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2009 to 24 Feb 2009 (#2009-44) There are 9 messages totalling 1608 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. he was run over/he got run over (2) 2. On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for language teachers (5) 3. adjectives in a- 4. Speaking English To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:47:17 -0500 From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over A few more observations about "got." In English, there is often an ambiguity about whether a past participle after the "be" auxiliary is adjective or part of the verb phrase. "The beer got drunk" is passive, but what about "Paul got drunk" or "Paul was drunk"? "Paul got sick" is not passive, but what about "Paul got lost"? We can substitue "become" without feeling as though the meaning has changed. "Paul became lost." Does that mean we are shifting "lost" to adjective status or was it an adejective all along? "The child was lost during a shopping trip" seems passive, but "That child is lost" does not, at least to me. But context might change either. Biber et. al. in the Longman grammar say "many of these verbs have a different emphasis when used with the get-passive. With "be", they express a state, such as the state of 'being married' or 'being involved'. With "get", they are more dynamic, describing the process of getting into that state" (Student version, pages 171-2). Think, for example, of the difference between "was involved" and "got involved." The second certainly implies some sort of volition on the part of the actor. "He was so stupid. He got fired on the first day." "He was so unlucky. He was fired on the first day." To me, the "got" goes best with the notion that "he" did something to deserve it. Sometimes we get hung up trying to classify a word or phrase in one category or another, forgetting that our categories may be limiting what we are able to understand. The language is under no obligation to conform to our ideas about it. Craig > Bill, > > On "gotta," informally, and especially in children, you can hear "Do I > gotta?" with a little bit of a whine to it. > > These aren't very serial verb like. In the West African instantiation, > serial verbs constructions typically have a single subject, a single > auxiliary, but multiple intransitive and transitive verbs. In the usual > cases, verbs are used to mark valence, that is, they're used like case > markers and prepositions in languages like German and English. Where we > would typically have one verb with multiple arguments, as in > > My brother brought me home a book for my child > > where "me" is benefactive, "home" is locative, "a book" is object, and "my > daughter" is dative, Yoruba, spoken by about 20 million people in Nigeria > and Benin, would have > (without some important vowel and tone diacritics thanks to ASCII) > > egbon mi ba mi mu iwe wa si ile fun omo > mi > elder-sibling my help me pick-up-light-object book come to house give > child my > > (I fear email will mess up spacing on this. Treat anything hyphenated as > a single gloss for a single word.) Ba, mu, wa, si, and fun are all verbs, > each of which has independent lexical functions as verbs by themselves. > There is some debate as to whether Yoruba has prepositions at all, and I > tend to think it doesn't although there are two words that may be shifting > in that direction. Si "to" is clearly a verb here even though it glosses > as "in." > > I could put a negative "ko" before "ba" and get "didn't" or "a" before > "ba" and get "will" or "ti" before "ba" and get perfect aspect, or even > combinations of these and other auxiliaries. > > Serial verbs can also be used for multi-event sentences, like > > I went to the market, bought meat, brought it home, cooked it, and ate it. > > Mo lo si igboro ra eran mu wa si ile se jeun. > I go to market buy meat pick-up-light-object come to house cook eat. > > This sentence too allows negatives and auxiliaries only before the first > verb, "lo." > > The language does have dependency marking on verbs, so "I want to go" > would have a lengthening of the verb for want with a high tone on the > vowel: > > Mo fe e lo > I want to go > > which serves as something like an infinitive marker in the language. > > Yoruba does not have sentence coordination of the sort English has, using > a word that can conjoin things of the same category, nouns, adjectives, > verbs, adverbs, etc. It does have a particle that goes in the auxiliary > that means something like "and then," but there's no actual "and" for > verbs, verb phrases, or clauses. > > What distinguishes serial verb constructions from complement structures is > that serial verbs have no morphological marking to show their > relationship. Order is important, but no morphological marking like for > the "want to" construction. > > Just as an aside, in Yoruba, a verb can only be a consonant, a vowel, and > a tone, with a few narrowly defined classes of exception. With 18 > consonants, 10 vowels, 3 tones, and some phonotactic constraints, the > total mathematically possible set of verbs comes to 510. Of these, only > about 335 actually occur. Yoruba uses serial verb collocations, like > > Fi enikan si ile > Take someone to ground (different final vowel and tone than "ile" "house") > > Which means "divorce someone" to express a very flexible range of > meanings. "Fi si ile" can also mean simply "put it down." > > And some serial verbs are used adverbially: > > Mo ti se ise tan > I perfect do work complete > I've finished the work. > > There are, of course, variations on these structures in other languages, > and additional constructions that don't occur in Yoruba, but this covers > the bulk of serial verb constructions of the West African and Atlantic > creole varieties. Serial verbs are also found in east and southeast Asia > and New Guinea (the island), but many of these languages are almost purely > analytic, with virtually no inflectional or derivational morphology, so > they have somewhat different properties. > > Perhaps something like "come give me a hug" would be like a serial verb > construction, but there aren't many other structures in English that would > correspond to serial verbs. > > Herb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > Sent: 2009-02-23 18:48 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over > > Dear All: > > I've been fiddling with these constructions, and have now become firmly > ambivalent about what to call parts of them. The test I usually use for > "full auxiliary status" is checking to see if the helping verb can show > up in front of the subject in a question. "Get" in the get-passive can't > do that, and neither can "got to" in its quasimodal use -- but the > quasipassive 'get' isn't the same as 'get to,' and I don't want to call > it a quasimodal. > > Also, you can't get a do-form showing up for deontic "got to" (*Does he > gotta go?), although you can with the otherwise-similar-seeming "have > to" (Does he hafta go?). They *are* possible with the get-passive (Did > he get run over?), which implies that 'get' should be treated as the > main verb. Do-forms are also possible with the "get to" that implies > permission (Does he get to go?" but I'd think that's just evidence that > the second is more generally "Get X" with X as an infinitive. > > Herb -- how serial verb-ish are these? I know English isn't officially > supposed to have those but from my very limited, and dated, knowledge of > Cambodian, the pattern certainly seems familiar. I seem to remember > you've mentioned SVCs, but apologies if I've switched the context on it. > > Sincerely, > > Bill Spruiell > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Myers, Marshall > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:46 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over > > Dave, > > I was the one suggesting that the construction may be a "get" passive. > > Like a garden variety passive, the actor in the sentence is either > hidden or could be in a "by-phrase." "He got run over (by a truck.)" > > When the object of the "by-phrase" becomes the subject of the converted > sentence, like the "to be" form in the garden variety passive, the > converted sentence drops the auxiliary: Joe was run over by a truck" > becomes "The truck ran over Joe." And "He got run over by a truck" > becomes "The truck ran over him." Notice also that in both cases of the > conversion of both types of passives, the verb then is marked for tense > (obviously, it has to be). > > I'm not suggesting any generalizations beyond these, but, as I > understand it, the "get passive" does bear some credence in some > grammarians' minds. > > In other situations, I can understand why "get" can act like an > auxiliary. > > Marshall > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Kehe > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:16 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over > > Scott, > I agree with Janet calling "got" a helping verb. I tell my students > that passive voice consists of an auxiliary verb and past participle. > I'd be interested to know why you and Patty would consider "got" a > model. > > Dave > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Patricia > Lafayllve > Sent: Fri 2/20/2009 8:58 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over > > > > Scott- > > > > I can see the "logic" of calling it a passive with "got" as the modal, > but I'd probably let the student know that the construction was > "informal" and make sure they know how to construct a passive using > "formal" methods (ie "was run over"). Does that make sense? I am > posting while jet-lagged, here... > > > > -patty > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:33 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: he was run over/he got run over > > > > List, > > My previous message on this topic delivered itself before I had finished > it. Here is the complete message. > > > > Recently, a student wrote "he got run over." This seems to be a common > way of expressing the passive. > > > > Would you characterize this as a passive? Would you analyze "run" as > the verb of the sentence and "got" as a modal operating like "was" in a > normally constructed (was run over) passive? > > Scott Woods > > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:22:38 -0700 From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over The passive is traditionally thought of as formed with be + passive partici= ple of transitive verb. The form with get + participle would be a periphra= stic equivalent having a modal sense including the idea of volition or inte= nt. At the risk of widening this thread to other verb phrases with modal = sense, ATEGers might consider how they approach the following expressions. = Do we leave them out of the formal styles that are most acceptable in so m= any writing assignments?=20=20 I think that there are quite a few expressions in English that might be cla= ssed as periphrastic equivalents to the five modal verbs of a) will/would, = b) shall/should, c) can/could, d) may/might, and e) must. These seem to fa= ll into eight formal categories so that there could be as many as 40 possib= ilities. Some must fall together, as there are only the following 20 kinds= that I have noted. Perhaps ATEGers can suggest others or some other class= ification or mistakes in these. 1) a) like to go, want to go; b) ought to go; d) get to go; e) have to go, = need to go, deserve to go;=20 2) a) be to go; e) be to go;=20 3) a) be willing to go; b) be supposed to go; c) be able to go, be free to = go; d) be privileged to go;=20 4) a) be about to go;=20 5) a) be going to go, be fixing to go;=20 6) b) be obliged to go; c) be allowed to go; d) be allowed to go; e) be mad= e to go;=20 7) e) have got to go, had ought to go;=20 8) a) had rather go; e) had better go, had best go.=20=20 Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:47 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over A few more observations about "got." In English, there is often an ambiguity about whether a past participle after the "be" auxiliary is adjective or part of the verb phrase. "The beer got drunk" is passive, but what about "Paul got drunk" or "Paul was drunk"? "Paul got sick" is not passive, but what about "Paul got lost"? We can substitue "become" without feeling as though the meaning has changed. "Paul became lost." Does that mean we are shifting "lost" to adjective status or was it an adejective all along? "The child was lost during a shopping trip" seems passive, but "That child is lost" does not, at least to me. But context might change either. Biber et. al. in the Longman grammar say "many of these verbs have a different emphasis when used with the get-passive. With "be", they express a state, such as the state of 'being married' or 'being involved'. With "get", they are more dynamic, describing the process of getting into that state" (Student version, pages 171-2). Think, for example, of the difference between "was involved" and "got involved." The second certainly implies some sort of volition on the part of the actor. "He was so stupid. He got fired on the first day." "He was so unlucky. He was fired on the first day." To me, the "got" goes best with the notion that "he" did something to deserve it. Sometimes we get hung up trying to classify a word or phrase in one category or another, forgetting that our categories may be limiting what we are able to understand. The language is under no obligation to conform to our ideas about it. Craig > Bill, > > On "gotta," informally, and especially in children, you can hear "Do I > gotta?" with a little bit of a whine to it. > > These aren't very serial verb like. In the West African instantiation, > serial verbs constructions typically have a single subject, a single > auxiliary, but multiple intransitive and transitive verbs. In the usual > cases, verbs are used to mark valence, that is, they're used like case > markers and prepositions in languages like German and English. Where we > would typically have one verb with multiple arguments, as in > > My brother brought me home a book for my child > > where "me" is benefactive, "home" is locative, "a book" is object, and "my > daughter" is dative, Yoruba, spoken by about 20 million people in Nigeria > and Benin, would have > (without some important vowel and tone diacritics thanks to ASCII) > > egbon mi ba mi mu iwe wa si ile fun omo > mi > elder-sibling my help me pick-up-light-object book come to house give > child my > > (I fear email will mess up spacing on this. Treat anything hyphenated as > a single gloss for a single word.) Ba, mu, wa, si, and fun are all verbs, > each of which has independent lexical functions as verbs by themselves. > There is some debate as to whether Yoruba has prepositions at all, and I > tend to think it doesn't although there are two words that may be shifting > in that direction. Si "to" is clearly a verb here even though it glosses > as "in." > > I could put a negative "ko" before "ba" and get "didn't" or "a" before > "ba" and get "will" or "ti" before "ba" and get perfect aspect, or even > combinations of these and other auxiliaries. > > Serial verbs can also be used for multi-event sentences, like > > I went to the market, bought meat, brought it home, cooked it, and ate it. > > Mo lo si igboro ra eran mu wa si ile se jeun. > I go to market buy meat pick-up-light-object come to house cook eat. > > This sentence too allows negatives and auxiliaries only before the first > verb, "lo." > > The language does have dependency marking on verbs, so "I want to go" > would have a lengthening of the verb for want with a high tone on the > vowel: > > Mo fe e lo > I want to go > > which serves as something like an infinitive marker in the language. > > Yoruba does not have sentence coordination of the sort English has, using > a word that can conjoin things of the same category, nouns, adjectives, > verbs, adverbs, etc. It does have a particle that goes in the auxiliary > that means something like "and then," but there's no actual "and" for > verbs, verb phrases, or clauses. > > What distinguishes serial verb constructions from complement structures is > that serial verbs have no morphological marking to show their > relationship. Order is important, but no morphological marking like for > the "want to" construction. > > Just as an aside, in Yoruba, a verb can only be a consonant, a vowel, and > a tone, with a few narrowly defined classes of exception. With 18 > consonants, 10 vowels, 3 tones, and some phonotactic constraints, the > total mathematically possible set of verbs comes to 510. Of these, only > about 335 actually occur. Yoruba uses serial verb collocations, like > > Fi enikan si ile > Take someone to ground (different final vowel and tone than "ile" "house") > > Which means "divorce someone" to express a very flexible range of > meanings. "Fi si ile" can also mean simply "put it down." > > And some serial verbs are used adverbially: > > Mo ti se ise tan > I perfect do work complete > I've finished the work. > > There are, of course, variations on these structures in other languages, > and additional constructions that don't occur in Yoruba, but this covers > the bulk of serial verb constructions of the West African and Atlantic > creole varieties. Serial verbs are also found in east and southeast Asia > and New Guinea (the island), but many of these languages are almost purely > analytic, with virtually no inflectional or derivational morphology, so > they have somewhat different properties. > > Perhaps something like "come give me a hug" would be like a serial verb > construction, but there aren't many other structures in English that would > correspond to serial verbs. > > Herb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > Sent: 2009-02-23 18:48 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over > > Dear All: > > I've been fiddling with these constructions, and have now become firmly > ambivalent about what to call parts of them. The test I usually use for > "full auxiliary status" is checking to see if the helping verb can show > up in front of the subject in a question. "Get" in the get-passive can't > do that, and neither can "got to" in its quasimodal use -- but the > quasipassive 'get' isn't the same as 'get to,' and I don't want to call > it a quasimodal. > > Also, you can't get a do-form showing up for deontic "got to" (*Does he > gotta go?), although you can with the otherwise-similar-seeming "have > to" (Does he hafta go?). They *are* possible with the get-passive (Did > he get run over?), which implies that 'get' should be treated as the > main verb. Do-forms are also possible with the "get to" that implies > permission (Does he get to go?" but I'd think that's just evidence that > the second is more generally "Get X" with X as an infinitive. > > Herb -- how serial verb-ish are these? I know English isn't officially > supposed to have those but from my very limited, and dated, knowledge of > Cambodian, the pattern certainly seems familiar. I seem to remember > you've mentioned SVCs, but apologies if I've switched the context on it. > > Sincerely, > > Bill Spruiell > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Myers, Marshall > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:46 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over > > Dave, > > I was the one suggesting that the construction may be a "get" passive. > > Like a garden variety passive, the actor in the sentence is either > hidden or could be in a "by-phrase." "He got run over (by a truck.)" > > When the object of the "by-phrase" becomes the subject of the converted > sentence, like the "to be" form in the garden variety passive, the > converted sentence drops the auxiliary: Joe was run over by a truck" > becomes "The truck ran over Joe." And "He got run over by a truck" > becomes "The truck ran over him." Notice also that in both cases of the > conversion of both types of passives, the verb then is marked for tense > (obviously, it has to be). > > I'm not suggesting any generalizations beyond these, but, as I > understand it, the "get passive" does bear some credence in some > grammarians' minds. > > In other situations, I can understand why "get" can act like an > auxiliary. > > Marshall > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Kehe > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:16 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over > > Scott, > I agree with Janet calling "got" a helping verb. I tell my students > that passive voice consists of an auxiliary verb and past participle. > I'd be interested to know why you and Patty would consider "got" a > model. > > Dave > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Patricia > Lafayllve > Sent: Fri 2/20/2009 8:58 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over > > > > Scott- > > > > I can see the "logic" of calling it a passive with "got" as the modal, > but I'd probably let the student know that the construction was > "informal" and make sure they know how to construct a passive using > "formal" methods (ie "was run over"). Does that make sense? I am > posting while jet-lagged, here... > > > > -patty > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:33 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: he was run over/he got run over > > > > List, > > My previous message on this topic delivered itself before I had finished > it. Here is the complete message. > > > > Recently, a student wrote "he got run over." This seems to be a common > way of expressing the passive. > > > > Would you characterize this as a passive? Would you analyze "run" as > the verb of the sentence and "got" as a modal operating like "was" in a > normally constructed (was run over) passive? > > Scott Woods > > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s= ) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized= review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the = intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al= l copies of the original message. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:06:40 -0500 From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for language teachers --Apple-Mail-3--502837358 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig writes, "If our primary concern is with error, then a great deal never surfaces, for teacher or student alike." I worry that to some on the list this may sound like we should not be concerned with surface error. Based on past discussions with Craig, I'm fairly certain he doesn't mean this, but only means that to limit our concern to surface error is to leave out much that is rich and interesting about how the language works. I would argue that helping students gain control over "error" is an important task, that we should not neglect, but that it certainly isn't the whole task. Peter Adams On Feb 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Craig Hancock wrote: > f our primary concern is with error, then a great deal never > surfaces, for teacher or student alike. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Apple-Mail-3--502837358 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webki= t-line-break: after-white-space; ">Craig writes, "If our primary concern is=20= with error, then a great deal never surfaces, for teacher or student alike."= <div><br></div><div>I worry that to some on the list this may sound l= ike we should not be concerned with surface error. Based on past discu= ssions with Craig, I'm fairly certain he doesn't mean this, but only means t= hat to <i>limit</i> our concern to surface error is to leave out much that i= s rich and interesting about how the language works. I would argue tha= t helping students gain control over "error" is an important task, that we s= hould not neglect, but that it certainly isn't the whole task.</div><div><br= ></div><div>Peter Adams<br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>= On Feb 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-i= nterchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-spa= n" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Hel= vetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weig= ht: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-al= ign: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wido= ws: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-bo= rder-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webki= t-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; ">f our primary conc= ern is with error, then a great deal never surfaces, for teacher or student=20= alike.</span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>=3D To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Apple-Mail-3--502837358-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:18:08 -0700 From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: adjectives in a- --_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D13724F3B7D434MBX01ldschurc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was discussion a short time ago about the non-attributive use of cert= ain adjectives that beqin with the prefix a-. I couldn't think at the time= what article I had recently read about this phenomenon, but came across it= this morning: Julia Schl=FCter, "Constraints on the attributive use of 'pr= edicative-only' adjectives" in Graeme Trousdale, Nikolas Gisborne, ed., Top= ics in English Linguistics: Constructional Approaches to English Grammar (M= outon de Gruyter, Berlin, 2008) pp. 145-179. Some of her conclusions may b= e of some interest. 1) aghast, agog, aloof, askew appear occasionally in attr. position 2) adrift, alive ashamed, averse, awake, aware, awry appear more often= in attr.position when premodified 3) afloat, afraid, akin, asleep appear in attr. position only when pre= modified Premodification includes use with a prefix (like un-), compounding, and mod= ification by an adverb, which complexity in the attr. construction has been= available only since the nineteenth century. The linguistic explanations = available are based on 1) semantics, and 2) phonetic (stress clashes). Bot= h forces were shown to be at work in this construction, sometimes one, some= times the other. This seems to support a lexically based theory of explan= ation. NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s= ) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized= review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the = intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al= l copies of the original message. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D13724F3B7D434MBX01ldschurc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph {mso-style-priority:34; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:.5in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:859129527; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1466719754 67698705 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698= 713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-text:"%1\)"; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal>There was discussion a short time ago about the non-attributive use of certain adjectives that beqin with the prefix a-.=A0= I couldn’t think at the time what article I had recently read about this phenomenon, but came across it this morning: Julia Schl=FCter, “Const= raints on the attributive use of ‘predicative-only’ adjectives” = in Graeme Trousdale, Nikolas Gisborne, ed., Topics in English Linguistics: Constructional Approaches to English Grammar (Mouton de Gruyter, Berlin, 20= 08) pp. 145-179.=A0 Some of her conclusions may be of some interest.=A0 <o:p></= o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n= bsp; </span></span><![endif]>aghast, agog, aloof, askew appear occasionally in a= ttr. position<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n= bsp; </span></span><![endif]>adrift, alive ashamed, averse, awake, aware, awry a= ppear more often in attr.position when premodified<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n= bsp; </span></span><![endif]>afloat, afraid, akin, asleep appear in attr. positi= on only when premodified<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Premodification includes use with a prefix (like un-),= compounding, and modification by an adverb, which complexity in the attr. construction h= as been available only since the nineteenth century.=A0 The linguistic explana= tions available are based on 1) semantics, and 2) phonetic (stress clashes).=A0 B= oth forces were shown to be at work in this construction, sometimes one, someti= mes the other.=A0 =A0This seems to support a lexically based theory of explanat= ion.=A0 <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <DIV> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt';font-family:'"Helvetic= a","Tahoma","Arial","sans-serif"'><font color=3D"#666666"><br><br> NOTICE: = This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may= contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, = use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended = recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies = of the original message.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p> </DIV></body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D13724F3B7D434MBX01ldschurc_-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:14:01 -0600 From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for language teachers Bill and Craig, Thank you both for your thoughtful replies to my post on the importance of the competence-performance for language teachers. I used sentence (1), a real sentence written by an L1 Chinese student I'm teaching this semester. 1) They are not agree with the Input Hypothesis. I proposed that the error in (1) is not with "are" but the student's underlying representation of the work "agree." The student told be for her "agree" is an adjective. Among other things, I noted correcting "are" and replacing with "do" would not really help this student because such a correction does not provide her with the explanation why the "are" is incorrect here. Craig noted: It's certainly good to be reminded that merely correcting the surface errors on a text isn't good pedagogical practice. I'm not sure "competence" and "performance" are the best terms to account for a connection between what a student does and what he/she understands, but it all makes sense.=20 *** Of course, he is right. In this case the "surface error" -- "are" should be "do" is not correct. I wish he had provided his understanding of why the student wrote (1) in the first place. In this regard, Bill's response is more interesting. I wish he had written more. Bill notes correctly with the competence/performance distinction.=20 >>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 2/23/2009 12:56 PM >>> If you're claiming that only a competence/performance-distinguishing model can deal with those phenomena, you're wrong. If you're claiming that we can deal with them only by talking about what speakers seem to think/assume/believe about a language -- i.e., that we have to make some statements about internal states if we're making other than purely descriptive statements -- you're right. But *lots* of theories, including most functionalist ones, are in the same camp you are on that one. **** He is, of course, right that other theories posit internal states that are the result of input and not the result of some innate knowledge of principles of language. I tried to address such an alternative explanation in my original post. I want to consider the alternative account that Bill provides: I should probably clarify my comments a bit. You'll notice toward the end of that earlier post, I throw in the following: >>I think functionalists in general don=E2=80=99t mind claiming that performance=20 >>(including comprehension in a social context, rather than just=20 >>production) partly creates competence as an epiphenomenon...<< The "partly" was there by intention, as was the entailment that competence exists (you can't create something that is nonexistent....well, barring certain interpretations of null-elements). Obviously, native speakers do have the ability to recognize if novel strings are acceptable in their language or not. Production and comprehension appear to conform to certain norms, and it's hard to deal with that without positing some kind of "rest state" system (not impossible, since I *think* Eco's semiotics manages it, but I'm by no means positive). Functionalists tend to think the fundamental characteristics of that system are determined by general cognitive constraints together with *meaningful* interaction with other speakers, rather than by the operation of a specific-only-to-language module on a semantically neutral set of input strings. If for "competence" we substitute "how one expects the language to act, given what's gone before," we've got something closer to the functionalist conception (or at least, my version of it). *** I want to consider Bill's functionalist explanation for how we come to what we know about language and what that means for BOTH the student and the teacher's knowledge of the language. If "meaningful" interaction and general cognitive constraints are what determines what we know about language , we have to be puzzled why any student would write (1). We can be pretty confident that a student in the States would never encounter such a sentence like (1) with just "agree." As I noted in my original post, (2) and (3) are possible. (2) They are not agreeing with the Input Hypothesis. (3) They are not in agreement with the Input Hypothesis. Because, I think, a functionalist explanation tries to avoid abstract representations, my explanation of why the student wrote (1) -- agree is an adjective - is not a possible functionalist explanation. I'm not a functionalists, so here is my question: What are the general cognitive constraints operating in "meaningful interaction," that resulted in this student concluding agree is an adjective? I wish I could read a plausible functionalist account.=20 Now let's consider the teacher's response to (1) from the functionalist explanation. As native speakers we are confronted with a sentence we have never encountered before in any meaningful interaction. Although we understand it, we recognize it is ungrammatical because ARE should be DO. So, we cross out ARE and write DO. If the only thing we know about language is through meaningful interaction and general cognitive constraints, how do we even suppose that (1) is the result of the writer having the wrong category for "agree." Those categories are merely the result of an epiphenomona of the frequencies we have unconsciously noted in the language. As a teacher considering this string and whose knowledge of English is the result of interactions, we also realize that (1) is just as likely the result of the student meaning to write (2) and (3). We now have to decide how many possibilities we put on the student's paper to indicate why (1) is not English. Again, I'm not a functionalist, so I feel very uncomfortable providing explanations for a perspective I don't know very well. I want to be corrected if I have misstated anything. I am a language teacher; I teach both native and non-native speakers of English and I teach about the nature of language to pre-service teachers who will be teaching both native and non-native speakers. I have to respond to texts that contain strings that no mature writer would write. I have tried to show here how the assumption that our knowledge of language (both mine as a teacher and that of my students) has both a competence and performance distinction informs my responses. I suspect that those who deny the competence-performance distinction respond to texts differently. I'm trying to figure what the differences are to evaluate which view of language is more helpful to me as a=20 teacher. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri =20 =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:33:18 -0500 From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for language teachers Peter, I think you and I are in agreement in lots of ways, so I welcome this formulation of it. I would tend to rephrase it a little. I believe it's important for students to gain a working feel for Standard English and for the routine conventions of writing, including punctuation. I don't think that just "happens", but I also don't think just correcting errors on a paper is an effective approach. A more operative question might be "what do students need to know" to accomplish those goals. Writing effectively involves moving closer and closer to an unreachable target. In that larger sense, error will always be a part of it. We need ways to talk about revising sentences, looking at grammatical choices and their contribution to the unfolding purposes of the text. If we reduce gramamr to "error", we will miss that. I am trying to teach writing without "error" or "correct" in the vocabulary. Language can be grammatical or ungrammatical, standard or non-standard, effective or ineffective, and I try to use those as separate lenses. But I would agree very much with your premises. If our students are expected to gain some facility with standard English, then we should find out how to get them there. If they are expected to punctuate effectively, then we should try to figure out the best ways to help them accomplish that. If they are expected to be able to present their own views within the ongoing conversation of a discipline, then we should know how to mentor that process as well. What I like about what you're doing (how's the book coming?) is that you are trying to demystify the process. As you work that out over time, I expect that many of us will find it useful, Craig Craig writes, "If our primary concern is with error, then a great deal > never surfaces, for teacher or student alike." > > I worry that to some on the list this may sound like we should not be > concerned with surface error. Based on past discussions with Craig, > I'm fairly certain he doesn't mean this, but only means that to limit > our concern to surface error is to leave out much that is rich and > interesting about how the language works. I would argue that helping > students gain control over "error" is an important task, that we > should not neglect, but that it certainly isn't the whole task. > > Peter Adams > > > > On Feb 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Craig Hancock wrote: > >> f our primary concern is with error, then a great deal never >> surfaces, for teacher or student alike. > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:59:17 -0800 From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Speaking English --0-1972103869-1235512757=:45000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After an exhaustive review of the research literature, here's the final wor= d on nutrition and health.:=20 =A0=20 1. Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than us.=20 2. Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than us.=20 3. Chinese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than u= s.=20 4. Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart atta= cks than us.=20 5. Germans drink beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer he= art attacks than us.=20 6. The French eat foie-gras, full fat cheese and drink red wine and suffer = fewer heart attacks than us=20 =A0=20 CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently wha= t kills you. =0A=0A=0A To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1972103869-1235512757=:45000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"= top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: i= nherit">After an exhaustive review of the research literature, here's the f= inal word on nutrition and health.: </SPAN><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color= =3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> </SPA= N></FONT><FONT face=3Dinherit><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> </SPAN>= </FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d= 0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">1. Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer = <SPAN class=3Dyshortcuts id=3Dlw_1235485770_17>heart attacks</SPAN> than us= . </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COL= OR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">2. Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer = fewer heart attacks than us. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color= =3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">3. Chinese = drink very little <SPAN class=3Dyshortcuts id=3Dlw_1235485770_18>red wine</SPAN> and suffer fewer heart attacks than = us. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"C= OLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">4. Italians drink excessive amounts of= red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than us. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT f= ace=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: i= nherit">5. Germans drink beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer = fewer heart attacks than us. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color= =3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">6. The Fren= ch eat foie-gras, full fat cheese and drink red wine and suffer fewer heart= attacks than us </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SP= AN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT= face=3Dinherit><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> </SPAN></FONT><BR><FO= NT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMIL= Y: inherit">CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you. </SPAN= ></FONT></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1972103869-1235512757=:45000-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:42:16 -0500 From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for language teachers DQoNCkJvYiwNCg0KSSdtIHJlcGVhdGluZyB5b3VyIGV4YW1wbGUgc2VudGVuY2UgYmVsb3csIGFs b25nIHdpdGggYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cgSSdkIGFwcHJvYWNoIGl0LiBGaXJzdCwgdGhv dWdoLCBJJ2QgbGlrZSB0byBkaXN0aW5ndWlzaCBhbW9uZyB0aHJlZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgInN0YW5j ZXMiIEkgc29tZXRpbWVzIGFkb3B0LCBzaW5jZSBJIHdhbnQgdG8gZW5zdXJlIHRoYXQgSSBkb24n dCBlbmQgdXAgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIHByZXNlbnQgYSB2ZXJ5IG5hcnJvdyBwZXJzb25hbCBwb3NpdGlv 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Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for language teachers SSd2ZSBiZWVuIGZvbGxvd2luZyB0aGlzIGRlYmF0ZSBmcm9tIHRoZSBzaWRlbGluZXMsIHBhcnRs eSBiZWNhdXNlIGl0IHNvdW5kcyB0b28gbXVjaCBsaWtlIHRvbyBtYW55IGFyZ3VtZW50cyBhYm91 dCBpZGVvbG9neSBvciByZWxpZ2lvbiBhbmQgcGFydGx5IGJlY2F1c2UgSSdtIG5vdCBlbnRpcmVs eSBzdXJlIG9mIG15IG93biBwb3NpdGlvbiBvbiBjb21wZXRlbmNlIGFuZCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSwg d2hhdCB0aGV5IGRlZmluZSwgYW5kIHdoYXQgdGhlaXIgcmVsZXZhbmNlIGlzIHRvIHBlZGFnb2d5 LiAgQ3JhaWcsIEJpbGwsIGFuZCBCb2IgaGF2ZSBjYXJyaWVkIG9uIGEgdGhvdWdodGZ1bCBhbmQg c3RpbXVsYXRpbmcgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvbiB0aGVzZSBtYXR0ZXJzIHRoYXQgSSBoYXZlIGVuam95 ZWQgYW5kIHRoYXQgSSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIGZvciB0aGUgdGhvdWdodCwgZXhwZXJ0aXNlLCBhbmQg cGFzc2lvbiB0aGF0IGhhcyBnb25lIGludG8gaXQuDQoNCldoZW4gSSB3YXMgaW4gZ3JhZCBzY2hv b2wgaW4gdGhlIGxhdGUgNjBzLCBvbmUgcGllY2Ugb2YgcmVxdWlyZWQgcmVhZGluZyBpbiBzeW50 YXggY2xhc3NlcyB3YXMgUGF1bCBQb3N0YWwncyBDb25zdGl0dWVudCBTdHJ1Y3R1cmUsIGEgc3Rl 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