Excellent response;I love the NED entry. I have read novels written by native English speakers who could not distinguish between EModE and Victorian affectation. Picture "Ods Bodkins! Thou doth think wrongly of me." in a non-comedic novel spoken by a Stuart-era character. Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 25 Feb 2009 to 26 Feb 2009 (#2009-46) There are 4 messages totalling 278 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Question (4) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:48:09 -0700 From: Lorraine Wallace <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Question One of my students was wondering about the eth and est endings of verbs in = archaic literature. When is eth appropriate and when is est? I have = never thought of this question. We came up with a possibility, but I = wondered how the experts would explain this. Thanks for your input. Lorraine=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:05:50 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question Lorraine, -est is a second person singular ending, used with the second singular pron= oun "thou." -eth is a third singular ending. Neither is used in the plura= l, and both of them survived into Early Modern English and then died out la= rgely by the 18th c., although they continued in some dialects. In modern parodies of older Englishes, -eth tends to get used as a pseudo-a= rchaism regardless of the person or number of the subject. The language ne= ver used it in that way. Herb =20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Lorraine Wallace Sent: 2009-02-26 14:48 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Question One of my students was wondering about the eth and est endings of verbs in = archaic literature. When is eth appropriate and when is est? I have never= thought of this question. We came up with a possibility, but I wondered h= ow the experts would explain this. Thanks for your input. Lorraine=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:16:18 -0700 From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question Maybe someone could explain the difference between wast and wert, both arch= aic 2nd person singular endings where the subject is thou.=20=20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:06 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Question Lorraine, -est is a second person singular ending, used with the second singular pron= oun "thou." -eth is a third singular ending. Neither is used in the plura= l, and both of them survived into Early Modern English and then died out la= rgely by the 18th c., although they continued in some dialects. In modern parodies of older Englishes, -eth tends to get used as a pseudo-a= rchaism regardless of the person or number of the subject. The language ne= ver used it in that way. Herb =20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Lorraine Wallace Sent: 2009-02-26 14:48 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Question One of my students was wondering about the eth and est endings of verbs in = archaic literature. When is eth appropriate and when is est? I have never= thought of this question. We came up with a possibility, but I wondered h= ow the experts would explain this. Thanks for your input. Lorraine=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s= ) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized= review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the = intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al= l copies of the original message. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:44:05 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question We can add to wast/wert the form "art," where the r < s very early by the s= ame rhotacism that gives us was/were, except that Verner's Law seems not to= have been involved as it was in the latter. Historically "art" and "is" h= ave the same root, cognate to es- in Latin and a lot of other Indo-European= (es (2s), est (3s), estis (2p)). On wast/wert, I'll quote directly from the OED (the material in {} is OED s= pecial font that doesn't have an ASCII equivalent and gets replaced by code= for the character): "b. 2nd sing. wast (w{rfa}st, w{schwa}st), orig. were. [in Goth. wast, ON. = vast, vart, OHG., OS. w=E2ri, OFris. w=EAre.] Forms: 1 w{aeacu}re, 2-6 were= , (3 wore), 6-7 werst, wart, 6- wert, wast. North. 3- was. negative 1-3 n= =E6re, nere. The modern analogical wast has displaced the etymological were= (with grammatical ablaut) chiefly under the influence of Tindale and the B= ible; the intermediate wert (Shakespeare's form) prevailed in literature du= ring the 17th and 18th c., and has been used by many 19th century writers." The number before a form or list of forms indicates the century or centurie= s during which it was used, where 1 =3D 1100s, 2=3D1200s, etc. =20 So "wast" is a 16th c. form that developed by analogy, perhaps, of the form= =20 was : wast :: has : hast Grammatical ablaut refers to the change in vowel from "e" in "were" to "a" = in "wast." Ablaut is a technical term for these sorts of vowel changes, co= mmon in English strong verbs like see/saw/seen, drive/drove/driven, etc. T= he alveolar stop /t/ rather than the fricative /T/, spelled <th>, occurs be= cause of the preceding /s/. English doesn't allow final consonant clusters= of two voiceless fricatives like /sT/. "Wert" strikes me also as analogical, attaching the phonologically derived = /t/ inflectional suffix from "wast" to "were." The entire OED entry for "be" makes for very interesting reading. The amou= nt of variation in forms throughout the history of the language and even ac= ross modern dialects is truly astonishing. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain Sent: 2009-02-26 15:16 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Question Maybe someone could explain the difference between wast and wert, both arch= aic 2nd person singular endings where the subject is thou. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:06 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Question Lorraine, -est is a second person singular ending, used with the second singular pron= oun "thou." -eth is a third singular ending. Neither is used in the plura= l, and both of them survived into Early Modern English and then died out la= rgely by the 18th c., although they continued in some dialects. In modern parodies of older Englishes, -eth tends to get used as a pseudo-a= rchaism regardless of the person or number of the subject. The language ne= ver used it in that way. Herb =20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Lorraine Wallace Sent: 2009-02-26 14:48 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Question One of my students was wondering about the eth and est endings of verbs in = archaic literature. When is eth appropriate and when is est? I have never= thought of this question. We came up with a possibility, but I wondered h= ow the experts would explain this. Thanks for your input. Lorraine=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s= ) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized= review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the = intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al= l copies of the original message. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 25 Feb 2009 to 26 Feb 2009 (#2009-46) ********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/