Ed, In terms of subjunctives as an issue in prescriptive grammar, there's a history of conflicting views, I think. Part of the movement to make English work more like Latin resulted in some grammarians wanting the subjunctive to be used where Latin would use one, while the actual production of speakers went on its merry way undeterred. My understanding of the current rules (and I suspect there's still disagreement on this) is that the subjunctive is used in contrary-to-fact conditionals, whether they start with an if or a fronted auxiliary. Non-contrafactual conditionals use the indicative, even if they begin with if ("I think I know what happened to the pizza. If my roommate was here last night - and I think he was, because his laundry is on the floor - he probably ate it."). The term 'subjunctive' is also used for the infinitive-ish forms after verbs like suggest ("I suggest she be promoted"), but I never see that kind causing any issues. Sincerely, Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edward Vavra Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Subjunctives - help wanted In KISS grammar, I have to deal with subjunctives, primarily because some (not all) teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he were here, I'd ask him" as containing a subject/verb agreement error. From my perspective, students do not need to learn the concept before seventh grade. (See KISS Level 2.1.7 at http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Tab le) But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not sure of how I want to handle them. The nature of subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen some grammars that consider "If" causes as subjunctives. How many members of this list would agree? Can I assume that "had" constructions, such as "He we but world enough and time" are also subjunctives. My basic understanding was that subjunctives indicate something contrary to fact, but "if" clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now see it, the confusion may result from differences in the three basic assumptions about definitions--meaning, form, and function. Comments will be appreciated. Ed To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/