In an ironic sort of way…
I just read Paul’s post “before
coffee.” I read “were-subjunctive” in the same way one would
read “were-wolf,” and had to re-read the entire thing once I
figured out which were was meant to be where.
Sad, really. I had an entire humorous
off-thread about whether or not students could use silver to defeat
subjunctives, and how teachers could show them how to recognize subjunctives
even before the full moon. Yes, I really did.
Seriously, now – I understand
calling a subjunctive using “if” a “hypothetical,”
because it is precisely that, but my concern would be that students would
misapply their “weres” if we called it a “were-subjunctive”
in the classroom. Is there a way we can make this case more clearly?
-patty
From:
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009
7:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help
wanted
Quirk, et al, (_A
Grammar of Contemporary English_. London: Longman, 1972: 76-77), call the
subjunctive using "if" the "were-subjunctive"
(which is a conditional form, too, I guess -- at least, I seem
to remember learning it as the "conditional tense" -- of course,
it really isn't a tense at all), saying it is "hypothetical in
meaning." I'm not sure what makes it hypothetical at all; it seems quite
real to me. They also say that it is restricted to one form
("were" of course) and is only used in the first & third person
(singular past forms), as in "If Ed were here, we could discuss the
subjunctive mood."
Generally, they
also suggest that the subjunctive isn't an important category
in English (at least not any more), whatever that means. What makes a form
'important'? They also identify two other forms of the subjunctive
(Mandative & Formulaic), but I am still trying to sort out the differences.
On Ed's other comments, I say, "Heaven
forbid" that a teacher should "correct" a student's use of
the subjunctive; so few students know to use it any more. I find myself trying
to get them to use it! It's such a nicely subtle and rich resource. I mourn its
loss.
Oh, well, "so be it!"
Paul D.
"If this were
play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction"
(_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Edward
Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009
3:22:46 PM
Subject: Subjunctives - help
wanted
In KISS
grammar, I have to deal with subjunctives, primarily because some (not all)
teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he were here, I'd ask him"
as containing a subject/verb agreement error. From my perspective, students do
not need to learn the concept before seventh grade. (See KISS Level 2.1.7 at http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table)
But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not sure of how I want to handle them.
The nature of subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen some grammars that
consider "If" causes as subjunctives. How many members of this list
would agree?
Can I
assume that "had" constructions, such as "He we but world enough
and time" are also subjunctives.
My basic
understanding was that subjunctives indicate something contrary to fact, but
"if" clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now see it, the
confusion may result from differences in the three basic assumptions about
definitions--meaning, form, and function.
Comments
will be appreciated.
Ed
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