Patty, I've firmly stayed away from breaking down the subjunctives into their various sub-types described by grammarians like Quirk et al. There are times when I feel uneasy about simplifying material, but this isn't one of them. The distinction between the types of subjunctive that Paul describes, in my opinion, simply isn't meaningful enough in English to teach at anything but an advanced level (by meaningful I suppose I mean "active" in a way, like affecting the syntax or morphology). I'm open to having my mind changed about that though.
 
In the meantime, I just teach all of them as the subjunctive. Maybe that's just the easy way out, which I usually find a poor choice. I'm sticking to it for now though!
 
John

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

In an ironic sort of way…

 

I just read Paul's post "before coffee."  I read "were-subjunctive" in the same way one would read "were-wolf," and had to re-read the entire thing once I figured out which were was meant to be where.

 

Sad, really.  I had an entire humorous off-thread about whether or not students could use silver to defeat subjunctives, and how teachers could show them how to recognize subjunctives even before the full moon.  Yes, I really did.

 

Seriously, now – I understand calling a subjunctive using "if" a "hypothetical," because it is precisely that, but my concern would be that students would misapply their "weres" if we called it a "were-subjunctive" in the classroom.  Is there a way we can make this case more clearly?

 

-patty

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:17 PM


To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted

 

Quirk, et al, (_A Grammar of Contemporary English_. London: Longman, 1972: 76-77), call the subjunctive using "if" the "were-subjunctive" (which is a conditional form, too, I guess -- at least, I seem to remember learning it as the "conditional tense" -- of course, it really isn't a tense at all), saying it is "hypothetical in meaning." I'm not sure what makes it hypothetical at all; it seems quite real to me. They also say that it is restricted to one form ("were" of course) and is only used in the first & third person (singular past forms), as in "If Ed were here, we could discuss the subjunctive mood."

 

Generally, they also suggest that the subjunctive isn't an important category in English (at least not any more), whatever that means. What makes a form 'important'? They also identify two other forms of the subjunctive (Mandative & Formulaic), but I am still trying to sort out the differences.

 

On Ed's other comments, I say, "Heaven forbid" that a teacher should "correct" a student's use of the subjunctive; so few students know to use it any more. I find myself trying to get them to use it! It's such a nicely subtle and rich resource. I mourn its loss.

 

Oh, well, "so be it!"

 

Paul D.


 

"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).

 

 

From: Edward Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 3:22:46 PM
Subject: Subjunctives - help wanted

In KISS grammar, I have to deal with subjunctives, primarily because some (not all) teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he were here, I'd ask him" as containing a subject/verb agreement error. From my perspective, students do not need to learn the concept before seventh grade. (See KISS Level 2.1.7 at http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table)

     But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not sure of how I want to handle them. The nature of subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen some grammars that consider "If" causes as subjunctives. How many members of this list would agree?

 

Can I assume that "had" constructions, such as "He we but world enough and time" are also subjunctives.

 

My basic understanding was that subjunctives indicate something contrary to fact, but "if" clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now see it, the confusion may result from differences in the three basic assumptions about definitions--meaning, form, and function.

 

Comments will be appreciated.

Ed

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