John-
I think I’m with you in just calling them “subjunctive,”
at least for now.
I imagine that part of the problem is that
same old saw; at least here in
-patty
From:
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009
6:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help
wanted
Patty, I've firmly stayed away from breaking down the subjunctives into
their various sub-types described by grammarians like Quirk et al. There are
times when I feel uneasy about simplifying material, but this isn't one of
them. The distinction between the types of subjunctive that Paul describes, in
my opinion, simply isn't meaningful enough in English to teach at anything but
an advanced level (by meaningful I suppose I mean "active" in a way,
like affecting the syntax or morphology). I'm open to having my mind changed
about that though.
In the meantime, I just teach all of them as the subjunctive. Maybe
that's just the easy way out, which I usually find a poor choice. I'm sticking
to it for now though!
John
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
In an ironic sort of way…
I just read Paul's post "before coffee." I
read "were-subjunctive" in the same way one would read
"were-wolf," and had to re-read the entire thing once I figured out
which were was meant to be where.
Sad, really. I had an entire humorous off-thread about
whether or not students could use silver to defeat subjunctives, and how
teachers could show them how to recognize subjunctives even before the full
moon. Yes, I really did.
Seriously, now – I understand calling a subjunctive using
"if" a "hypothetical," because it is precisely that, but my
concern would be that students would misapply their "weres" if we
called it a "were-subjunctive" in the classroom. Is there a way
we can make this case more clearly?
-patty
From:
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009
7:17 PM
Subject: Re: Subjunctives
- help wanted
Quirk, et al, (_A Grammar of Contemporary
English_. London: Longman, 1972: 76-77), call the subjunctive using
"if" the "were-subjunctive" (which is
a conditional form, too, I guess -- at least, I seem to remember
learning it as the "conditional tense" -- of course, it really isn't
a tense at all), saying it is "hypothetical in meaning." I'm not
sure what makes it hypothetical at all; it seems quite real to me. They also
say that it is restricted to one form ("were" of course) and is
only used in the first & third person (singular past forms), as in "If
Ed were here, we could discuss the subjunctive mood."
Generally, they also suggest that the
subjunctive isn't an important category in English (at least not any
more), whatever that means. What makes a form 'important'? They also
identify two other forms of the subjunctive (Mandative & Formulaic),
but I am still trying to sort out the differences.
On Ed's other comments, I say, "Heaven
forbid" that a teacher should "correct" a student's use of
the subjunctive; so few students know to use it any more. I find myself trying
to get them to use it! It's such a nicely subtle and rich resource. I mourn its
loss.
Oh, well, "so be it!"
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I
could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Edward
Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009
3:22:46 PM
Subject: Subjunctives - help
wanted
In KISS
grammar, I have to deal with subjunctives, primarily because some (not all)
teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he were here, I'd ask him"
as containing a subject/verb agreement error. From my perspective, students do
not need to learn the concept before seventh grade. (See KISS Level 2.1.7 at http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table)
But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not sure of how I want to handle them.
The nature of subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen some grammars that
consider "If" causes as subjunctives. How many members of this list
would agree?
Can I
assume that "had" constructions, such as "He we but world enough
and time" are also subjunctives.
My basic
understanding was that subjunctives indicate something contrary to fact, but
"if" clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now see it, the
confusion may result from differences in the three basic assumptions about
definitions--meaning, form, and function.
Comments
will be appreciated.
Ed
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