Curiouser and curiouser! I don't really teach it either, except when it comes up in student writing or in discussions about its use in literature (a rare occurance). I do find that I use it in speech -- at least the "if-conditional" form of it (I'm assuming that this really is a subjunctive). Students do learn it in their advanced foreign language classes (oops, I mean "world language!" I keep forgetting to be totally P.C.). I'd also add that I teach mostly honors English, but few of my students ever write things like "If I were you" or "For though it have holp madmen to their wits" (Shakespeare _Richard II_ 5.5.62)!
Paul
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:27:30 PM
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
I figured that was the case, Paul.
I should probably also mention that I teach the subjunctive for identification and knowledge sake more than anything else. I want them to know that the construction is out there, and if they can use it in their own writing that's great! However, I'd be a hypocrite if I tried to teach it as a highly functional part of spoken language because I don't use it. It has never been a part of my spoken language, only my formal written language (and sometimes it feels horribly stuffy even there).
It's a fun way to talk about language registers beyond just the lexicon though. And, of course, it can be used quite masterfully in prose so for advanced students it's worth further exploration I think.
John
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Yeah, perhaps I should have mentioned that I would not ever, no never, never, never try to teach these distinctions to my students! I have enough of a challenge thinking about them myself! I was just responding to Ed Vavra's posting.....and the moon isn't even full, yet!
Paul
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:38:10 PM
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
Patty, I've firmly stayed away from breaking down the subjunctives into their various sub-types described by grammarians like Quirk et al. There are times when I feel uneasy about simplifying material, but this isn't one of them. The distinction between the types of subjunctive that Paul describes, in my opinion, simply isn't meaningful enough in English to teach at anything but an advanced level (by meaningful I suppose I mean "active" in a way, like affecting the syntax or morphology). I'm open to having my mind changed about that though.
In the meantime, I just teach all of them as the subjunctive. Maybe that's just the easy way out, which I usually find a poor choice. I'm sticking to it for now though!
John
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
In an ironic sort of way…
I just read Paul's post "before coffee." I read "were-subjunctive" in the same way one would read "were-wolf," and had to re-read the entire thing once I figured out which were was meant to be where.
Sad, really. I had an entire humorous off-thread about whether or not students could use silver to defeat subjunctives, and how teachers could show them how to recognize subjunctives even before the full moon. Yes, I really did.
Seriously, now – I understand calling a subjunctive using "if" a "hypothetical," because it is precisely that, but my concern would be that students would misapply their "weres" if we called it a "were-subjunctive" in the classroom. Is there a way we can make this case more clearly?
-patty
________________________________
From:Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
Quirk, et al, (_A Grammar of Contemporary English_. London: Longman, 1972: 76-77), call the subjunctive using "if" the "were-subjunctive" (which is a conditional form, too, I guess -- at least, I seem to remember learning it as the "conditional tense" -- of course, it really isn't a tense at all), saying it is "hypothetical in meaning." I'm not sure what makes it hypothetical at all; it seems quite real to me. They also say that it is restricted to one form ("were" of course) and is only used in the first & third person (singular past forms), as in "If Ed were here, we could discuss the subjunctive mood."
Generally, they also suggest that the subjunctive isn't an important category in English (at least not any more), whatever that means. What makes a form 'important'? They also identify two other forms of the subjunctive (Mandative & Formulaic), but I am still trying to sort out the differences.
On Ed's other comments, I say, "Heaven forbid" that a teacher should "correct" a student's use of the subjunctive; so few students know to use it any more. I find myself trying to get them to use it! It's such a nicely subtle and rich resource. I mourn its loss.
Oh, well, "so be it!"
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From:Edward Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 3:22:46 PM
Subject: Subjunctives - help wanted
In KISS grammar, I have to deal with subjunctives, primarily because some (not all) teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he were here, I'd ask him" as containing a subject/verb agreement error. From my perspective, students do not need to learn the concept before seventh grade. (See KISS Level 2.1.7 at http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table)
But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not sure of how I want to handle them. The nature of subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen some grammars that consider "If" causes as subjunctives. How many members of this list would agree?
Can I assume that "had" constructions, such as "He we but world enough and time" are also subjunctives.
My basic understanding was that subjunctives indicate something contrary to fact, but "if" clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now see it, the confusion may result from differences in the three basic assumptions about definitions--meaning, form, and function.
Comments will be appreciated.
Ed
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