Paul, Patti and all, I have a very thick file that holds my collection of pseudo-subjunctives, a name that Quirk et al. give to the If-clauses that use the subjunctive "were" even though the statement may not be contrary to fact. In all of these cases, it may or may not : John Grisham, "The Street Lawyer": "Come on," I said, completely uncertain if he were telling the truth." Jim Lehrer (1999): "The president said he would sign the bill if it were short-term." David Mandell, author of "Obama: From Promise to Power" (2007): "If there were any doubt left [of his running for president], his visit to the early-primary state of New Hampshire in December erased it." "Maya said her brother realized that he must experience African-American culture up close if he were to cleanse himself of his internal racial confusion and bubbling anger." Colin Dexter "The Way through the Woods" (1992):" 'Very good, sir,' Said Morse, uncertain whether he monstrous misquotation were deliberate or not, for he found the chief superintendent watching him shrewdly." David Broder: (2008) "Thompson was particularly critical of farm subsidies, and when I asked if he were really going to take that message to Iowa, he said, "Yes, but . . . " Time (2008): "Prozac Rudy never acted as if his heart were in the race." AP (1998): "The president told Lewinsky to contact Currie in the event she were subpoenaed." And on and on. Another fairly common use of the subjunctive--correctly used, that is--is in that clauses after verbs that convey a strong suggestion or recommendation: We suggested that Mary go with us. We demanded that Bill go to the hospital immediately. And after certain nouns related to commands and suggestions: The suggestion that Bill see the doctor was a good one. And the subjunctive lingers in other phrases: I move that the meeting be adjourned. And perhaps that certain loud voices on our list be tempered. Early Valentine greetings to all, Martha >Curiouser and curiouser! I don't really teach it >either, except when it comes up in student >writing or in discussions about its use in >literature (a rare occurance). I do find that I >use it in speech -- at least the >"if-conditional" form of it (I'm assuming that >this really is a subjunctive). Students do learn >it in their advanced foreign language classes >(oops, I mean "world language!" I keep >forgetting to be totally P.C.). I'd also add >that I teach mostly honors English, but few of >my students ever write things like "If I were >you" or "For though it have holp madmen to their >wits" (Shakespeare _Richard II_ 5.5.62)! > > > >Paul > > >"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could >condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth >Night_ 3.4.127-128). > > > >From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:27:30 PM >Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted > >I figured that was the case, Paul. > >I should probably also mention that I teach the >subjunctive for identification and knowledge >sake more than anything else. I want them to >know that the construction is out there, and if >they can use it in their own writing that's >great! However, I'd be a hypocrite if I tried to >teach it as a highly functional part of spoken >language because I don't use it. It has never >been a part of my spoken language, only my >formal written language (and sometimes it feels >horribly stuffy even there). > >It's a fun way to talk about language registers >beyond just the lexicon though. And, of course, >it can be used quite masterfully in prose so for >advanced students it's worth further exploration >I think. > >John > >On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Paul E. Doniger ><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> >wrote: > >Yeah, perhaps I should have mentioned that I >would not ever, no never, never, never try to >teach these distinctions to my students! I >have enough of a challenge thinking about them >myself! I was just responding to Ed >Vavra's posting.....and the moon isn't even >full, yet! > >Paul > >"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could >condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth >Night_ 3.4.127-128). > > > >From: John Dews-Alexander ><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> > >To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask] > >Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:38:10 PM > >Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted > > >Patty, I've firmly stayed away from breaking >down the subjunctives into their various >sub-types described by grammarians like Quirk et >al. There are times when I feel uneasy about >simplifying material, but this isn't one of >them. The distinction between the types of >subjunctive that Paul describes, in my opinion, >simply isn't meaningful enough in English to >teach at anything but an advanced level (by >meaningful I suppose I mean "active" in a way, >like affecting the syntax or morphology). I'm >open to having my mind changed about that though. > >In the meantime, I just teach all of them as the >subjunctive. Maybe that's just the easy way out, >which I usually find a poor choice. I'm sticking >to it for now though! > >John > >On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Patricia >Lafayllve ><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> >wrote: > >In an ironic sort of wayŠ > > > >I just read Paul's post "before coffee." I read >"were-subjunctive" in the same way one would >read "were-wolf," and had to re-read the entire >thing once I figured out which were was meant to >be where. > > > >Sad, really. I had an entire humorous >off-thread about whether or not students could >use silver to defeat subjunctives, and how >teachers could show them how to recognize >subjunctives even before the full moon. Yes, I >really did. > > > >Seriously, now - I understand calling a >subjunctive using "if" a "hypothetical," because >it is precisely that, but my concern would be >that students would misapply their "weres" if we >called it a "were-subjunctive" in the classroom. >Is there a way we can make this case more >clearly? > > > >-patty > > > > >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English >Grammar >[mailto:<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]] >On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger >Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:17 PM > >To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask] > >Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted > > > >Quirk, et al, (_A Grammar of Contemporary >English_. London: Longman, 1972: 76-77), call >the subjunctive using "if" the >"were-subjunctive" (which is a conditional form, >too, I guess -- at least, I seem to remember >learning it as the "conditional tense" -- of >course, it really isn't a tense at all), saying >it is "hypothetical in meaning." I'm not sure >what makes it hypothetical at all; it seems >quite real to me. They also say that it is >restricted to one form ("were" of course) and is >only used in the first & third person (singular >past forms), as in "If Ed were here, we could >discuss the subjunctive mood." > > > >Generally, they also suggest that the >subjunctive isn't an important category >in English (at least not any more), whatever >that means. What makes a form 'important'? They >also identify two other forms of the subjunctive >(Mandative & Formulaic), but I am still trying >to sort out the differences. > > > >On Ed's other comments, I say, "Heaven >forbid" that a teacher should "correct" a >student's use of the subjunctive; so few >students know to use it any more. I find myself >trying to get them to use it! It's such a nicely >subtle and rich resource. I mourn its loss. > > > >Oh, well, "so be it!" > > > >Paul D. > > > > >"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could >condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth >Night_ 3.4.127-128). > > > > > > >From: Edward Vavra <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> >To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask] >Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 3:22:46 PM >Subject: Subjunctives - help wanted > >In KISS grammar, I have to deal with >subjunctives, primarily because some (not all) >teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he >were here, I'd ask him" as containing a >subject/verb agreement error. From my >perspective, students do not need to learn the >concept before seventh grade. (See KISS Level >2.1.7 at ><http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table>http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table) > > But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not >sure of how I want to handle them. The nature of >subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen >some grammars that consider "If" causes as >subjunctives. How many members of this list >would agree? > > > >Can I assume that "had" constructions, such as >"He we but world enough and time" are also >subjunctives. > > > >My basic understanding was that subjunctives >indicate something contrary to fact, but "if" >clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now >see it, the confusion may result from >differences in the three basic assumptions about >definitions--meaning, form, and function. > > > >Comments will be appreciated. > >Ed > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: ><http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at <http://ateg.org/>http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: ><http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at ><http://ateg.org/>http://ateg.org/ To join or >leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the >list's web interface at: ><http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at <http://ateg.org/>http://ateg.org/ > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: ><http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at <http://ateg.org/>http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: ><http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at <http://ateg.org/>http://ateg.org/ > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/