Paul, Patti and all,
I have a very thick file that holds my collection of
pseudo-subjunctives, a name that Quirk et al. give to the
If-clauses that use the subjunctive "were" even though the
statement may not be contrary to fact. In all of these cases, it may
or may not :
John Grisham, "The Street Lawyer": "Come on,"
I said, completely uncertain if he were telling the truth."
Jim Lehrer (1999): "The president said he would sign the
bill if it were short-term."
David Mandell, author of "Obama: From Promise to Power"
(2007): "If there were any doubt left [of his running for
president], his visit to the early-primary state of New Hampshire in
December erased it."
"Maya said her brother realized that he must experience
African-American culture up close if he were to cleanse himself of his
internal racial confusion and bubbling anger."
Colin Dexter "The Way through the Woods" (1992):"
'Very good, sir,' Said Morse, uncertain whether he monstrous
misquotation were deliberate or not, for he found the chief
superintendent watching him shrewdly."
David Broder: (2008) "Thompson was particularly critical of
farm subsidies, and when I asked if he were really going to take that
message to Iowa, he said, "Yes, but . . . "
Time (2008): "Prozac Rudy never acted as if his heart
were in the race."
AP (1998): "The president told Lewinsky to contact Currie in
the event she were subpoenaed."
And on and on.
Another fairly common use of the subjunctive--correctly used,
that is--is in that clauses after verbs that convey a strong
suggestion or recommendation:
We
suggested that Mary go with us.
We
demanded that Bill go to the hospital immediately.
And after certain nouns related to commands and
suggestions:
The
suggestion that Bill see the doctor was a good one.
And the subjunctive lingers in other phrases:
I move
that the meeting be adjourned.
And
perhaps that certain loud voices on our list be tempered.
Early Valentine greetings to all,
Martha
Curiouser and curiouser! I don't really
teach it either, except when it comes up in student writing or in
discussions about its use in literature (a rare occurance). I do find
that I use it in speech -- at least the "if-conditional"
form of it (I'm assuming that this really is a subjunctive). Students
do learn it in their advanced foreign language classes (oops, I mean
"world language!" I keep forgetting to be totally P.C.). I'd
also add that I teach mostly honors English, but few of my students
ever write things like "If I were you" or "For though
it have holp madmen to their wits" (Shakespeare _Richard
II_ 5.5.62)!
Paul
"If this were play'd upon a stage
now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth
Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: John Dews-Alexander
<[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:27:30 PM
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
I figured that was the case,
Paul.
I should probably also mention that I
teach the subjunctive for identification and knowledge sake more than
anything else. I want them to know that the construction is out there,
and if they can use it in their own writing that's great! However, I'd
be a hypocrite if I tried to teach it as a highly functional part of
spoken language because I don't use it. It has never been a part of my
spoken language, only my formal written language (and sometimes it
feels horribly stuffy even there).
It's a fun way to talk about language
registers beyond just the lexicon though. And, of course, it can be
used quite masterfully in prose so for advanced students it's worth
further exploration I think.
John
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Paul E.
Doniger <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Yeah, perhaps I should have mentioned that I
would not ever, no never, never, never try to teach these
distinctions to my students! I have enough of a challenge
thinking about them myself! I was just responding to Ed
Vavra's posting.....and the moon isn't even full,
yet!
Paul
"If this were play'd upon a stage
now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth
Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: John
Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday,
February 10, 2009 6:38:10 PM
Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
Patty, I've firmly stayed away from breaking down the
subjunctives into their various sub-types described by grammarians
like Quirk et al. There are times when I feel uneasy about simplifying
material, but this isn't one of them. The distinction between the
types of subjunctive that Paul describes, in my opinion, simply isn't
meaningful enough in English to teach at anything but an advanced
level (by meaningful I suppose I mean "active" in a way,
like affecting the syntax or morphology). I'm open to having my mind
changed about that though.
In the meantime, I just teach all of them as the
subjunctive. Maybe that's just the easy way out, which I usually find
a poor choice. I'm sticking to it for now though!
John
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
In an ironic sort of
wayŠ
I just read Paul's post
"before coffee." I read "were-subjunctive"
in the same way one would read "were-wolf," and had to
re-read the entire thing once I figured out which were was meant to be
where.
Sad, really. I had
an entire humorous off-thread about whether or not students could use
silver to defeat subjunctives, and how teachers could show them how to
recognize subjunctives even before the full moon. Yes, I really
did.
Seriously, now - I
understand calling a subjunctive using "if" a
"hypothetical," because it is precisely that, but my concern
would be that students would misapply their "weres" if we
called it a "were-subjunctive" in the classroom. Is
there a way we can make this case more clearly?
-patty
From: Assembly for
the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:
Subjunctives - help wanted
Quirk, et al, (_A Grammar
of Contemporary English_. London: Longman, 1972: 76-77), call the
subjunctive using "if" the "were-subjunctive"
(which is a conditional form, too, I guess -- at least,
I seem to remember learning it as the "conditional
tense" -- of course, it really isn't a tense at all), saying
it is "hypothetical in meaning." I'm not sure what makes it
hypothetical at all; it seems quite real to me. They also say
that it is restricted to one form ("were" of course)
and is only used in the first & third person (singular past
forms), as in "If Ed were here, we could discuss the subjunctive
mood."
Generally, they
also suggest that the subjunctive isn't an important
category in English (at least not any more), whatever that means.
What makes a form 'important'? They also identify two other
forms of the subjunctive (Mandative & Formulaic), but I am still
trying to sort out the differences.
On Ed's other comments, I
say, "Heaven forbid" that a teacher should
"correct" a student's use of the subjunctive; so few
students know to use it any more. I find myself trying to get them to
use it! It's such a nicely subtle and rich resource. I mourn its
loss.
Oh, well, "so be
it!"
Paul D.
"If this
were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Edward Vavra
<[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 3:22:46 PM
Subject: Subjunctives - help wanted
In KISS grammar, I have to
deal with subjunctives, primarily because some (not all) teachers will
mark a sentence such as "If he were here, I'd ask him" as
containing a subject/verb agreement error. From my perspective,
students do not need to learn the concept before seventh grade. (See
KISS Level 2.1.7 at http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table)
But
having introduced subjunctives, I'm not sure of how I want to handle
them. The nature of subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen some
grammars that consider "If" causes as subjunctives. How many
members of this list would agree?
Can I assume that "had"
constructions, such as "He we but world enough and time" are
also subjunctives.
My basic understanding was
that subjunctives indicate something contrary to fact, but "if"
clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now see it, the confusion
may result from differences in the three basic assumptions about
definitions--meaning, form, and function.
Comments will be
appreciated.
Ed
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