My personal preference is
adverbial particle and prepositional particle. These terms are probably
due to our grounding in traditional grammar and its parts of speech. The
term "determiner" has been split out of the traditional
"limiting adjective." Particle seems to do the same sort of
thing, but applies to several classes.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:16:26 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Phrasal Verb Overview
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Wow, Herb, thanks for pointing that out. In class we actually did kind of
dead end ourselves with that exact issue (why is this ungrammatical?). I
didn't have an answer although I thought it must be governed by some other
level of language. I hadn't considered discourse/prosodic constraints yet. =
I
can't wait to get back to class with an answer!
John
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:14 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>wrot=
e:
> John,
>
>
>
> I=92m glad you found Lester=92s book useful. I=92ve used it as a referen=
ce
> often, but, with some regret, I=92ve never used it as a text, maybe becau=
se by
> the time that edition came out I=92d stopped using textbooks in my gramma=
r
> classes and started using The Oxford English Grammar with lots of handout=
s.
>
>
>
> I will add just one comment to your excellent summary. I learned the
> object pronoun wrinkle a long time ago as you have described it in your l=
ast
> bullet. It was sometime later that I realized that that word order is an
> artifact of discourse pragmatics. If the DO is a pronoun, it=92s general=
ly
> old information and therefore unstressed and reduced. The result is that=
it
> can=92t carry the tonic accent of the sentence, and so the particle, whic=
h you
> note is generally stressed is placed finally to bear that accent. It=92s=
a
> nice instance of discourse function influencing sentence-level syntax.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *John Dews-Alexander
> *Sent:* 2009-03-23 20:00
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Phrasal Verb Overview
>
>
>
> Greetings, ATEGers!
>
>
>
> Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark
> Lester's (1990) *Grammar in the Classroom*. I'm not sure why I haven't
> discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would suggest it to
> anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in your classroo=
m,
> you and/or your students might enjoy knowing about it as a reference tex=
t.
> I find Lester's writing to be straightforward and uncluttered. Has anyone
> actually used this as a classroom text for teachers-in-training? If so, I=
'd
> be interested to hear about your experiences.
>
>
>
> I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal
> verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic studen=
ts
> but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive facts. I thoug=
ht
> I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal verbs that Lester
> includes.
>
>
>
> - Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and Germanic
> languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions (funct=
ional
> words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the preposition to=
the
> beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages adding them to the =
end.
> (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro" (swollow) in Latin)
> - When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the
> beginning of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more quic=
kly
> and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it used to be =
a
> phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because, orthographically, =
it is
> written without a space. However, English tends to leave the space whe=
n the
> preposition is added to the end of the verb stem. (example, "give up")
> - While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a tensed
> verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a phra=
sal
> verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has become
> attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester continues to=
call
> it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all). Lester points out a=
fun
> test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the unit with a single word
> (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the meaning? In this case, =
"I
> give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester points out the irony in the fa=
ct
> that "surrender" was once itself a phrasal verb in Latin!)
> - Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference betwee=
n
> a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For example,
>
> John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun
> phrase object)
>
> John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial
> prepositional phrase)
>
>
>
> Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal
> verbs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
>
> - Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look down
> on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
> - Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from traditional
> school grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin literally mean=
s "to
> place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions couldn't be conne=
cted
> to verbs if they came after them. Sometimes phrasal verbs were treate=
d as
> idioms.
> - Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable and
> inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions th=
at can
> be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example, "I gave =
up the
> game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up"). Inseparable phrasal =
verbs
> have prepositions that cannot be moved (example, "I depend on the inco=
me" vs
> *"I depend the income on" or *"I depend it on").
> - As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a
> separable transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the
> preposition is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and nev=
er *"I
> gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with some
> clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this sense, i=
t is
> actually *ungrammatical* to NOT end a sentence with a preposition.
>
> Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> John Alexander
>
> Austin, Texas
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Wow, Herb, thanks for pointing that out. In class we actually did kind=
of dead end ourselves with that exact issue (why is this ungrammatical?). =
I didn't have an answer although I thought it must be governed by some =
other level of language. I hadn't considered discourse/prosodic constra=
ints yet. I can't wait to get back to class with an answer!
=A0
John
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:14 PM, STAHLKE, HERBE=
RT F
<hstahlke@bsu=
.edu> wrote:
John,
=A0
I=92m glad you found Les=
ter=92s book useful.=A0 I=92ve used it as a reference often, but, with some=
regret, I=92ve never used it as a text, maybe because by the time that edi=
tion came out I=92d stopped using textbooks in my grammar classes and start=
ed using The Oxford English Grammar with lots of handouts.
=A0
I will add just one comm=
ent to your excellent summary.=A0 I learned the object pronoun wrinkle a lo=
ng time ago as you have described it in your last bullet.=A0 It was sometim=
e later that I realized that that word order is an artifact of discourse pr=
agmatics.=A0 If the DO is a pronoun, it=92s generally old information and t=
herefore unstressed and reduced.=A0 The result is that it can=92t carry the=
tonic accent of the sentence, and so the particle, which you note is gener=
ally stressed is placed finally to bear that accent.=A0 It=92s a nice insta=
nce of discourse function influencing sentence-level syntax.
=A0
Herb
=A0
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
Sent: 2009-03-23 20:00
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:<=
/b> Phrasal Verb Overview
=A0
Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark Le=
ster's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'm not sure why I=
haven't discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would sug=
gest it to anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in =
your classroom, you and/or your=A0=A0students might enjoy knowing about it =
as a reference text. I find=A0Lester's=A0writing to be straightforward =
and uncluttered. Has anyone actually used this as a classroom text for teac=
hers-in-training? If so, I'd be interested to hear about your experienc=
es.
I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal=
verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic stu=
dents but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive facts. I t=
hought I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal verbs that=
Lester includes.
- Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and Germanic langu=
ages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions (functional =
words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the preposition to the =
beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages adding them to the end. =
(example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro&quo=
t; (swollow) in Latin)
- When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the beginning =
of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more=
quickly and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it used to=
be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because, orthographically,=
it is written without a space. However, English tends to leave the space w=
hen the preposition is added to the end of the verb stem. (example, "g=
ive up")
- While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a =
tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a ph=
rasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has become =
attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester continu=
es to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all). Lester po=
ints out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the unit with a si=
ngle=A0word (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the meaning? In this=
case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester point=
s out the irony in the fact that "surrender" was once itself a ph=
rasal verb in Latin!)
- Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference between a=
phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For example,
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phr=
asal verb+noun phrase object)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb=
+adverbial prepositional phrase)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Say the sentences out loud and notice the =
stress. In phrasal verbs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the=
PP.
- Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look down on=
, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
- Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from traditional schoo=
l grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin literally mean=
s "to place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions couldn=
't be connected to=A0 verbs if they came after them. Sometimes phrasal =
verbs were treated as idioms.
- Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable and in=
separable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions that can =
be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example, "I gave =
up the game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up&q=
uot;). Inseparable phrasal verbs have prepositions that cannot be moved (ex=
ample, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the income on&=
quot; or *"I depend it on").
- As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a separable =
transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the preposition is ob=
ligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and never *"I =
gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with some=
clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this se=
nse, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a pre=
position.
Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int=
erface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select &q=
uot;Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.ed=
u/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--000e0cd6ae24e77df70465fa86da--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:22:34 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Phrasal Verb Overview
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Richard, thanks for pointing this out. I lifted it straight from Lester's
text without giving it enough thought.
I agree with you that it does seem easy to think of "depend on coffee" as a
separable phrasal verb when you put it that way, but I think it must be in
the gray area, perhaps transitioning from one category to another because I
find the evidence to point to it as an inseparable phrasal verb unless I'm
approaching this incorrectly.
I think that what your example is pointing out (which is likely your main
point) is that there are even more granular subsets of phrasal verbs within
the larger categories of "separable" and "inseparable." Your example seems
to support that "depend on" is a phrasal verb because even in your
transformation of the sentence "coffee" remains the object of the verb and
not a modifier. However, while Lester calls it "inseparable," your
construction shows that it can be separated.
a. I depend on coffee.
b. *I depend coffee on. (Lester's text seems to use this as evidence that
the phrasal verb is inseparable.)
c. Coffee is a drug I depend on. (a version of your construction that keeps
the phrasal verb intact)
d. Coffee is a drug on which I depend. (your construction that separates the
phrasal verb)
e. I depend on it.
f. *I depend it on. (since no obligatory movement, evidence for phrasal verb
as inseparable)
The same pattern is seen with a phrasal verb like "vote on":
a. The committee voted on the motion.
b. *The committee voted the motion on.
c. The motion is an initiative the committee voted on.
d. The motion is an initiative on which the committee voted.
e. The committee voted on it.
f. *The committee voted it on.
Both of these phrasal verbs are described by non-native dictionaries that I
have as inseparable phrasal verbs (I suspect so that learners of English
won't make ungrammatical statements such as "b" and "f" in both examples
above.)
Then there's the example you give of "give up," which you call inseparable
but that I find to be truly separable:
a. I gave up coffee
b. I gave coffee up.
c. Coffee is a drug I gave up.
d. (?)(*)Coffee is a drug up which I gave.
e. *I gave up it.
f. I gave it up. (pronoun movement is obligatory which supports separable
phrasal verb).
So, we have an interesting pattern. Phrasal verbs that are typically
considered inseparable can separate in a specific construction. Is this just
because of prescriptive rules against ending a sentence with a
"preposition" that forced us to into another structure?
Or perhaps there's more to it since a traditionally separable phrasal verb
cannot be easily separated in the same structure. Isn't this odd and the
opposite of what we'd expect? Maybe there's another discourse constraint
happening here that I can't quite see.
My guess right now is that there are sub-classes of phrasal verbs that may
be able to account for this pattern; in any case, the sub-class distinctions
are likely ones I'd avoid in my classroom at everything but the most
advanced levels.
John
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> John,
>
> In your penultimate bullet below, "depend on" does feel like an
> "inseparable phrasal verb," but there is one bit of evidence that "on" is a
> true preposition:
>
> *
> I depend on coffee.
> *
> Coffee is a drug on which I depend.
>
> Compare that with a true phrasal verb:
>
> * I gave up coffee.
> * *Coffee is a drug up which I gave.
>
> A similar example of a seeming but debatable phrasal verb is "call on" as
> in "Willy calls on a dozen accounts each day." There are real "inseparable
> phrasal verbs" such as "come by" ("McDuck came by his wealth honestly"), but
> I wonder whether "depend on" and "call on" are among them.
>
>
>
> I have another question for ATEGers. A phrasal verb typically consists of a
> verb-word and a preposition-word. But what about those two-word predicates
> such as "look forward" and "put forth" where the second word is neither a
> preposition-word nor separable from the verb-word? Do we call them "phrasal
> verbs" as well?
>
>
>
> Dick Veit
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander [
> [log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 7:59 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Phrasal Verb Overview
>
> Greetings, ATEGers!
>
> Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark
> Lester's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'm not sure why I haven't
> discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would suggest it to
> anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in your classroom,
> you and/or your students might enjoy knowing about it as a reference text.
> I find Lester's writing to be straightforward and uncluttered. Has anyone
> actually used this as a classroom text for teachers-in-training? If so, I'd
> be interested to hear about your experiences.
>
> I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal
> verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic students
> but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive facts. I thought
> I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal verbs that Lester
> includes.
>
>
> * Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and Germanic
> languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions (functional
> words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the preposition to the
> beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages adding them to the end.
> (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro" (swollow) in Latin)
> * When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the beginning
> of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more quickly and easily
> recognized as a new word; people forget that it used to be a phrasal
> verb/verb +preposition combination because, orthographically, it is written
> without a space. However, English tends to leave the space when the
> preposition is added to the end of the verb stem. (example, "give up")
> * While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a tensed
> verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a phrasal
> verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has become
> attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester continues to call
> it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all). Lester points out a fun
> test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the unit with a single word
> (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the meaning? In this case, "I
> give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester points out the irony in the fact
> that "surrender" was once itself a phrasal verb in Latin!)
> * Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference between
> a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For example,
>
> John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun phrase
> object)
> John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial
> prepositional phrase)
>
> Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal verbs
> the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
>
> * Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look down
> on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
> * Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from traditional
> school grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin literally means "to
> place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions couldn't be connected
> to verbs if they came after them. Sometimes phrasal verbs were treated as
> idioms.
> * Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable and
> inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions that can
> be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example, "I gave up the
> game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up"). Inseparable phrasal verbs
> have prepositions that cannot be moved (example, "I depend on the income" vs
> *"I depend the income on" or *"I depend it on").
> * As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a separable
> transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the preposition is
> obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and never *"I gave up it."
> (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with some clunky
> construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this sense, it is actually
> ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a preposition.
>
> Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
>
> Regards,
>
> John Alexander
> Austin, Texas
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Richard, thanks for pointing this out. I lifted it straight from Leste=
r's text without giving it enough thought.
=A0
I agree with you that it does seem easy to think of "depend on co=
ffee" as a separable phrasal verb when you put it that way, but I thin=
k it must be in the gray area, perhaps transitioning from one category to a=
nother because I find the evidence to point to it as an inseparable=A0phras=
al verb unless I'm approaching this incorrectly.
=A0
I think that what your example is pointing out (which is likely your m=
ain point) is that there are even more granular subsets of phrasal verbs wi=
thin the larger categories of "separable" and "inseparable.&=
quot; Your example seems to support that "depend on" is a phrasal=
verb because even in your transformation of the sentence "coffee"=
; remains the object of the verb and not a modifier. However, while Lester =
calls it "inseparable," your construction shows that it can be se=
parated.
=A0
a. I depend on coffee.
b. *I depend coffee on. (Lester's text seems to use this as eviden=
ce that the phrasal verb is inseparable.)
c. Coffee is a drug I depend on. (a version of your construction that =
keeps the phrasal verb intact)
d. Coffee is a drug on which I depend. (your construction that separat=
es the phrasal verb)
e. I depend on it.
f. *I depend it on. (since no obligatory movement, evidence for phrasa=
l verb as inseparable)
=A0
The same pattern is seen with a phrasal verb like=A0"vote on"=
;:
=A0
a. The committee voted on the motion.
b. *The committee voted the motion on.
c. The motion is an initiative the committee voted on.
d. The motion is an initiative on which the committee voted.
e. The committee voted on it.
f. *The committee voted it on.
=A0
Both of these phrasal verbs are described by non-native dictionaries t=
hat I have as inseparable phrasal verbs (I suspect so that learners of Engl=
ish won't make ungrammatical statements such as "b" and "=
;f" in both examples above.)
=A0
Then there's the example you give of "give up," which yo=
u call inseparable but that I find to be truly separable:
=A0
a. I gave up coffee
b. I gave coffee up.
c. Coffee is a drug I gave up.
d. (?)(*)Coffee is a drug up which I gave.
e. *I gave up it.
f. I gave it up. (pronoun movement is obligatory which supports separa=
ble phrasal verb).
=A0
So, we have an interesting pattern. Phrasal verbs that are typically c=
onsidered inseparable can separate in a specific construction. Is this just=
because of prescriptive rules against ending a sentence with a "prepo=
sition"=A0that forced us to into another structure?
=A0
Or perhaps there's more to it since a traditionally separable phra=
sal verb cannot be easily separated in the same structure. Isn't this o=
dd and the opposite of what we'd expect? Maybe there's another disc=
ourse constraint happening here that I can't quite see.
=A0
My guess right now is that there are sub-classes of phrasal verbs that=
may be able to account for this pattern; in any case, the sub-class distin=
ctions are likely ones I'd avoid in my classroom at everything but the =
most advanced levels.
=A0
John
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Veit, Richard <=
span dir=3D"ltr"><
[log in to unmask]>=
wrote:
John,
In your penultimate=
bullet below, "depend on" does feel like an "inseparable ph=
rasal verb," but there is one bit of evidence that "on" is a=
true preposition:
=A0*
I depend on coffee.
=A0*
Coffee is a drug on which I depe=
nd.
Compare that with a true phrasal verb:
=A0* =A0 I gave up=
coffee.
=A0* =A0 *Coffee is a drug up which I gave.
A similar ex=
ample of a seeming but debatable phrasal verb is "call on" as in =
"Willy calls on a dozen accounts each day." There are real "=
inseparable phrasal verbs" such as "come by" ("McDuck c=
ame by his wealth honestly"), but I wonder whether "depend on&quo=
t; and "call on" are among them.
I have another question for ATEGers. A phrasal verb typically c=
onsists of a verb-word and a preposition-word. But what about those two-wor=
d predicates such as "look forward" and "put forth" whe=
re the second word is neither a preposition-word nor separable from the ver=
b-word? Do we call them "phrasal verbs" as well?
Dick Veit
________________________________
Fr=
om: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Ale=
xander [[log in to unmask]<=
/a>]
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 7:59 PM
Subject: Phrasal Verb Overview
Greetings, ATEGers!
Someone (I believe it was =
Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark Lester's (1990) Grammar in =
the Classroom. I'm not sure why I haven't discovered this book befo=
re, but I quite like it and would suggest it to anyone reviewing grammar te=
xts. Even if you can't use it in your classroom, you and/or your =A0stu=
dents might enjoy knowing about it as a reference text. I find Lester's=
writing to be straightforward and uncluttered. Has anyone actually used th=
is as a classroom text for teachers-in-training? If so, I'd be interest=
ed to hear about your experiences.
I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasa=
l verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic st=
udents but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive facts. I =
thought I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal verbs tha=
t Lester includes.
=A0* =A0 Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and G=
ermanic languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions=
(functional words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the prepos=
ition to the beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages adding them=
to the end. (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and &=
quot;voro" (swollow) in Latin)
=A0* =A0 When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the begin=
ning of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is=
more quickly and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it us=
ed to be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because, orthographic=
ally, it is written without a space. However, English tends to leave the sp=
ace when the preposition is added to the end of the verb stem. (example, &q=
uot;give up")
=A0* =A0 While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronou=
n, a tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and=
a phrasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has be=
come attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester co=
ntinues to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all). Lest=
er points out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the unit with=
a single word (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the meaning? In t=
his case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester po=
ints out the irony in the fact that "surrender" was once itself a=
phrasal verb in Latin!)
=A0* =A0 Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference betw=
een a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For example,
=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phrasal ver=
b+noun phrase object)
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial p=
repositional phrase)
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Say the sentences out loud a=
nd notice the stress. In phrasal verbs the preposition is stressed while it=
is not in the PP.
=A0* =A0 Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: loo=
k down on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
=A0* =A0 Lester points out th=
at phrasal verbs were dumped from traditional school grammars because the w=
ord "preposition" in Latin literally means "to place before,=
" and it was reasoned that prepositions couldn't be connected to =
=A0verbs if they came after them. Sometimes phrasal verbs were treated as i=
dioms.
=A0* =A0 Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable a=
nd inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions that=
can be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example, "I =
gave up the game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it=
up"). Inseparable phrasal verbs have prepositions that cannot be move=
d (example, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the incom=
e on" or *"I depend it on").
=A0* =A0 As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a separ=
able transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the preposition =
is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and never *&qu=
ot;I gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with=
some clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In th=
is sense, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a preposi=
tion.
Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
Regards,=
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:05:46 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: query on the use of the word got
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Like others who have chimed in on this construction, I find it somewhat
informal and more likely to crop up in colloquial speech. I think it's a
perfectly fine sentence with a perfectly well-constructed verb string. "Get=
"
is a Germanic verb, and you'd probably be more comfortable with a
Latin-related verb since those tend to be more formal and eloquent (thank
you Norman conquest), but, again, that is really a matter of style and not
usage per se.
I would note that "get" seems to be a bit more "neutral" semantically (and
in news writing objectivity is key or so I'm told) than some alternative
like "obtained," "persuaded," "convinced," etc. Perhaps the news writer was
trying to avoid coloring the sentence at all with a different verb (althoug=
h
a restructuring may have served better).
John Alexander
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Ciervo, Frank <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Isn=92t this a good example of very poor usage? Unless my memory is very
> bad, it would have been cause for points off in my freshmen composition
> class. A sad commentary on the state of news writing in 2009
>
>
>
> But Farley noted that bill sponsor Assemblyman Peter Abbate Jr., D-Brookl=
yn
> *, hasn=92t yet gotten* a Democrat to introduce the bill in the Senate. T=
he
> Democrats won control of the Senate this year.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Note*:* Replying to a* *Listserv posting.
>
> *When responding to a meeting notice or transmitting an individual reques=
t
> for information, please e-mail me directly at [log in to unmask]** and not
> all recipients.* *Thank you.*
>
> ---------------------------------
> Frank J. Ciervo
> Director of Bar Services
> 518.487-5540 (phone)
> 518.487-5699 (fax)
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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Like others who have chimed in on this construction, I find it somewha=
t informal and more likely to crop up in colloquial speech. I think it'=
s a perfectly fine sentence with a perfectly well-constructed verb string. =
"Get" is a Germanic verb, and you'd probably be more comforta=
ble with a Latin-related verb since those tend to be more formal and=A0eloq=
uent=A0(thank you Norman conquest), but, again, that is really a matter of =
style and not usage per se.
=A0
I would note that "get" seems to be a bit more "neutral=
" semantically (and in news writing objectivity is key or so I'm t=
old) than some alternative like "obtained," "persuaded,"=
; "convinced," etc. Perhaps the news writer was trying to avoid c=
oloring the sentence at all with a different verb (although a restructuring=
may have served better).
=A0
John Alexander
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Ciervo, Frank <=
span dir=3D"ltr"><
[log in to unmask]
> wrote:
Isn=92t this a good exa=
mple of very poor usage? Unless my memory is very bad, it would have been c=
ause for points off in my freshmen composition class. A sad commentary on t=
he state of news writing in 2009
=A0
But Farley noted that b=
ill sponsor Assemblyman Peter Abbate Jr., D-Brooklyn, hasn=92t yet gotten a Democrat to introduce the =
bill in the Senate. The Democrats won control of the Senate this year.
=A0
-------------------------------------------------------<=
/span>
Note: Replying to a Lis=
tserv posting.
When responding to a meeting notice or transmitti=
ng an individual request for information, please e-mail me directly at [log in to unmask]=
and not all recipients. Thank you.
---------------------------------
Frank J. Ciervo
Director of Bar Services
518.487-5540 (phone)
518.487-5699 (fax)
<=
/span>fcie=
[log in to unmask]
=A0
To join or leave this LI=
STSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv=
.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list&=
quot;=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:28:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: I and me questions
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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James Cochrane wrote a short book/handbook called *Between You and I: A
Little Book of Bad English* and claimed that the subject/object pronoun
swapping started in the 70s due to hypercorrection. However, I don't think
that is true. I have seen many examples of this going very far back to the
beginning of Modern English. I've heard that Shakespeare used both "between
you and I" and "between you and me" and that this may have been common
during this time period.
There have been great discussions on this list about why this confusion
occurs as English grows less dependent on case marking for meaning. Herb
offered an explanation once that took into account discourse/information
structuring pressures, but I'm not having any luck finding it in the ATEG
listserv archives.
John Alexander
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Wollin, Edith <[log in to unmask]>wrote=
:
> Here are some questions for the group from a colleague. I think they fal=
l
> in the recent-history-of-the-language category:
>
> ) Was there a specific period in the last 30-40 years where "people" bega=
n
>
> to notice a proliferation of "me" used in the subject - especially compou=
nd
>
> subjects ("John and me will be late") and began an "education campaign" t=
o
>
> correct it? If so, how did the "word" get out (newspaper articles, word =
of
>
> mouth, increased emphasis in K-12/college) that people needed to be more
>
> conscious/clean up this part of their grammar?
>
> B) Is there any opinion or evidence that a sudden realization of the
>
> improper use of "me" instead of "I" in compound subjects led (via
>
> overcorrection or other means) to the seemingly recent proliferation of t=
he
>
> use of "I" in a compound (or even singular) form in the indirect
>
> object/subject of the preposition? Eg: "The chocolate cake was a surprise
>
> for my sister and me."
>
> C) Any concrete examples of this overcorrection making its way into
>
> mainstream media (Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Larry King, Oprah, etc.)?
>
> My own take on this is I started hearing =93between you and I=94 from eve=
n
> highly educated people in the 80s. I attributed it to hypercorrection mix=
ed
> with a lack of grammar instruction that would have cued people to know
> when to use the objective and when the subjective. It=92s been in this
> decade that I=92ve heard the I moving to the indirect object and to the
> objective of prep and subject of infinitive places when it is a compound =
and
> even sometimes when it is not a compound.
>
> Edith Wollin
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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James Cochrane wrote a short book/handbook called Between You and =
I: A Little Book of Bad English and claimed that the subject/object pr=
onoun swapping started in the 70s due to hypercorrection. However, I don=
9;t think that is true. I have seen many examples of this going very far ba=
ck to the beginning of Modern English. I've heard that Shakespeare used=
both "between you and I" and "between you and me" and =
that this may have been common during this time period.
=A0
There have been great discussions on this list about why this confusio=
n occurs as English grows less dependent on case marking for meaning. Herb =
offered an explanation once that took into account discourse/information st=
ructuring pressures, but I'm not having any luck finding it in the ATEG=
listserv archives.
=A0
John Alexander
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Wollin, Edith =
<[log in to unmask]
ctc.edu> wrote:
Here are some qu=
estions for the group from a colleague. I think they fall in the recent-history-of-<=
font face=3D"Calibri">the-language=
category:=
) Was there a sp=
ecific period in the last 30-40 years where "people" began=
to notice a prol=
iferation of "me" used in the subject - especially compound
subjects ("=
John and me will be late") and began an "education campaign"=
to
correct it?=A0 I=
f so, how did the "word" get out (newspaper articles, word of
mouth, increased=
emphasis in K-12/college) that people needed to be more
conscious/clean =
up this part of their grammar?
B) Is there any =
opinion or evidence that a sudden realization of the
improper use of =
"me" instead of "I" in compound subjects led (via
overcorrection o=
r other means) to the seemingly recent proliferation of the
use of "I&q=
uot; in a compound (or even singular) form in the indirect
object/subject o=
f the preposition? Eg: "The chocolate cake was a surprise
for my sister an=
d me."
C) Any concrete =
examples of this overcorrection making its way into
mainstream media=
(Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Larry King, Oprah, etc.)?
My own take on t=
his is I started hearing =93betwee=
n you and I=94 from even highly ed=
ucated people in the 80s. I attributed it to hypercorrection mixed with a l=
ack of grammar in=
struction that would have cued people to know when to use the=
objective and when the subjective. It=
=92s been in this=
decade that I=92=
ve heard the I mo=
ving to the indirect object and to the objective of prep and subject of inf=
initive places when it is a compound and even sometimes when it is not a co=
mpound.
Edith Wollin
To join or leave this LISTS=
ERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list&quo=
t;=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:36:58 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Overview)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Bill,
Thanks! As I read through the whole text, I notice exactly the lack of form
and function explanation that you point out. I've always considered that
crucial for any grammar course I teach since it changed the way I look at
grammar. Lester says this on page 3 of his text:
"A word of caution: part of speech resides in the way that a word is used;
it is not inherent in the word itself. For example, the names of concrete,
everyday objects such as *table, chair,* and *book* would seem to be
inherently nouns, but in the following sentences they are used as verbs.
The committee tabled the motion.
Mr. Smith chaired the meeting.
A travel agent booked the ticket for me.
Consequently, we must be careful to discuss a word's part of speech in term=
s
of the context in which it is used. Beware of talking about the part of
speech of a word used in isolation."
That allows him to allude to the form/function distinction throughout
without discussing at length how we can examine morphological form and
prototypical word categories as distinct from syntactic and discourse
function. Sly on his part and perhaps not a bad approach for his audience,
but I'd probably supplement the text with some of Martha Kolln's work just
to enhance that perspective.
John Alexander
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>w=
rote:
> John,
>
>
>
> I=92ve used Lester=92s book a number of times in a course here for future
> English teachers. Overall, I=92d say there=92s one major problem with it,=
but
> otherwise it=92s extremely good. The problem is that he doesn=92t make a =
clear
> form/function distinction. I=92m not sure *why* he doesn=92t =96 it could=
be
> that he=92s trying to stick to the K-12 school grammar tradition, which i=
s
> understandable, but the lack of that distinction is one of the things tha=
t
> constantly causes problems for anyone trying to teach the material (=93Yo=
u
> said only nouns could be plural, but in =91accounts receivable,=92 the ad=
jective
> is=94).
>
>
>
> The book is so good in other respects that I=92ve continued to use it, us=
ing
> handouts to deal with the form/function distinction. But, of course, then
> the students get annoyed because I=92m disagreeing with the textbook, and=
I
> get annoyed with them because the last thing future teachers should do is
> view a textbook (or their instructor=92s comments!) as Holy Writ.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *John Dews-Alexander
> *Sent:* Monday, March 23, 2009 8:00 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Phrasal Verb Overview
>
>
>
> Greetings, ATEGers!
>
>
>
> Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark
> Lester's (1990) *Grammar in the Classroom*. I'm not sure why I haven't
> discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would suggest it to
> anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in your classroo=
m,
> you and/or your students might enjoy knowing about it as a reference tex=
t.
> I find Lester's writing to be straightforward and uncluttered. Has anyone
> actually used this as a classroom text for teachers-in-training? If so, I=
'd
> be interested to hear about your experiences.
>
>
>
> I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal
> verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic studen=
ts
> but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive facts. I thoug=
ht
> I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal verbs that Lester
> includes.
>
>
>
> - Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and Germanic
> languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions (funct=
ional
> words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the preposition to=
the
> beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages adding them to the =
end.
> (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro" (swollow) in Latin)
> - When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the
> beginning of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more quic=
kly
> and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it used to be =
a
> phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because, orthographically, =
it is
> written without a space. However, English tends to leave the space whe=
n the
> preposition is added to the end of the verb stem. (example, "give up")
> - While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a tensed
> verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a phra=
sal
> verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has become
> attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester continues to=
call
> it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all). Lester points out a=
fun
> test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the unit with a single word
> (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the meaning? In this case, =
"I
> give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester points out the irony in the fa=
ct
> that "surrender" was once itself a phrasal verb in Latin!)
> - Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference betwee=
n
> a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For example,
>
> John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun
> phrase object)
>
> John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial
> prepositional phrase)
>
>
>
> Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal
> verbs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
>
> - Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look down
> on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
> - Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from traditional
> school grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin literally mean=
s "to
> place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions couldn't be conne=
cted
> to verbs if they came after them. Sometimes phrasal verbs were treate=
d as
> idioms.
> - Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable and
> inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions th=
at can
> be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example, "I gave =
up the
> game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up"). Inseparable phrasal =
verbs
> have prepositions that cannot be moved (example, "I depend on the inco=
me" vs
> *"I depend the income on" or *"I depend it on").
> - As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a
> separable transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the
> preposition is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and nev=
er *"I
> gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with some
> clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this sense, i=
t is
> actually *ungrammatical* to NOT end a sentence with a preposition.
>
> Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> John Alexander
>
> Austin, Texas
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--000e0cd47b267924420465fc7dee
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
=A0
Thanks! As I read through the whole text, I notice exactly the lack of=
form and function explanation that you point out. I've always consider=
ed that crucial for any grammar course I teach since it changed the way I l=
ook at grammar. Lester says this on page 3 of his text:
=A0
"A word of caution: part of speech resides in the way that a word=
is used; it is not inherent in the word itself. For example, the names of =
concrete, everyday objects such as table, chair,=A0 and book would seem to be inherently nouns, but in the following sentences they =
are used as verbs.
=A0=A0 The committee tabled the motion.
=A0=A0 Mr. Smith chaired the meeting.
=A0=A0 A travel agent booked the ticket for me.
Consequently, we must be careful to discuss a word's part of speec=
h in terms of the context in which it is used. Beware of talking about the =
part of speech of a word used in isolation."
=A0
That allows him to=A0allude to the form/function distinction throughou=
t without discussing at length how we can examine morphological form and pr=
ototypical word categories as distinct from syntactic and discourse functio=
n. Sly on his part and perhaps not a bad approach for his audience, but I&#=
39;d probably supplement the text with some of Martha Kolln's work just=
to enhance that perspective.
=A0
John Alexander
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Spruiell, Will=
iam C
<sprui1wc@=
cmich.edu> wrote:
John,
=A0
I=92ve used Lester=92s b=
ook a number of times in a course here for future English teachers. Overall=
, I=92d say there=92s one major problem with it, but otherwise it=92s extre=
mely good. The problem is that he doesn=92t make a clear form/function dist=
inction. I=92m not sure why he doesn=92t =96 it could be that he=92s=
trying to stick to the K-12 school grammar tradition, which is understanda=
ble, but the lack of that distinction is one of the things that constantly =
causes problems for anyone trying to teach the material (=93You said only n=
ouns could be plural, but in =91accounts receivable,=92 the adjective is=94=
).
=A0
The book is so good in o=
ther respects that I=92ve continued to use it, using handouts to deal with =
the form/function distinction. But, of course, then the students get annoye=
d because I=92m disagreeing with the textbook, and I get annoyed with them =
because the last thing future teachers should do is view a textbook (or the=
ir instructor=92s comments!) as Holy Writ.
=A0
Sincerely,
=A0
Bill Spruiell
=A0
=A0
Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark Le=
ster's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'm not sure why I=
haven't discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would sug=
gest it to anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in =
your classroom, you and/or your=A0=A0students might enjoy knowing about it =
as a reference text. I find=A0Lester's=A0writing to be straightforward =
and uncluttered. Has anyone actually used this as a classroom text for teac=
hers-in-training? If so, I'd be interested to hear about your experienc=
es.
I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal=
verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic stu=
dents but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive facts. I t=
hought I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal verbs that=
Lester includes.
- Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and Germanic langu=
ages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions (functional =
words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the preposition to the =
beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages adding them to the end. =
(example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro&quo=
t; (swollow) in Latin)
- When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the beginning =
of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more=
quickly and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it used to=
be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because, orthographically,=
it is written without a space. However, English tends to leave the space w=
hen the preposition is added to the end of the verb stem. (example, "g=
ive up")
- While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a =
tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a ph=
rasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has become =
attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester continu=
es to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all). Lester po=
ints out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the unit with a si=
ngle=A0word (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the meaning? In this=
case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester point=
s out the irony in the fact that "surrender" was once itself a ph=
rasal verb in Latin!)
- Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference between a=
phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For example,
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phr=
asal verb+noun phrase object)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb=
+adverbial prepositional phrase)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Say the sentences out loud and notice the =
stress. In phrasal verbs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the=
PP.
- Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look down on=
, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
- Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from traditional schoo=
l grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin literally mean=
s "to place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions couldn=
't be connected to=A0 verbs if they came after them. Sometimes phrasal =
verbs were treated as idioms.
- Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable and in=
separable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions that can =
be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example, "I gave =
up the game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up&q=
uot;). Inseparable phrasal verbs have prepositions that cannot be moved (ex=
ample, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the income on&=
quot; or *"I depend it on").
- As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a separable =
transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the preposition is ob=
ligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and never *"I =
gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with some=
clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this se=
nse, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a pre=
position.
Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int=
erface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select &q=
uot;Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.ed=
u/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--000e0cd47b267924420465fc7dee--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:42:07 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Overview)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd303bcec39f60465fc8f4e
--000e0cd303bcec39f60465fc8f4e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The copy I have of *Grammar in the Classroom* (1990) by Mark Lester is
published by Macmillan Publishing Company, a Simon & Schuster Company.
However, it seems to be out of print.
It appears that he has a newer text called *Grammar and Usage in the
Classroom* (2000) that is published by Longman. Perhaps this is the same
text but revised and updated (and here I am gabbing on about an out of print
text all this time, tsk tsk).
Larry, I don't see a Lester grammar text published by Allyn and Bacon. Am I
missing one? If so, I'd love to look at it!
John Alexander
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The publisher is Allyn and Bacon.
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
> >>> "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]> 03/24/09 3:54 PM >>>
> I looked for his book as possible text since I don't like the book I am
> using, but I couldn't find it. Who publishes it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Janet
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Larry Beason
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:39 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Overview)
>
> I'm a little biased because I've co-authored a grammar handbook with
> Mark Lester, but I've used his Grammar in the Classroom for many years
> and found it effective as well. I can tell you that indeed he wrote it
> so that it would match pretty well with traditional grammar instruction,
> though he also adds various twists on it.
>
> One problem deals with a few production errors in terms of typos, esp in
> the answer key. Not all the corrections he made were actually put into
> the book, even in a printing that came out a couple of years ago.
>
> Larry Beason
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
> >>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 03/24/09 11:52 AM >>>
> John,
>
>
>
> I've used Lester's book a number of times in a course here for future
> English teachers. Overall, I'd say there's one major problem with it,
> but otherwise it's extremely good. The problem is that he doesn't make a
> clear form/function distinction. I'm not sure why he doesn't - it could
> be that he's trying to stick to the K-12 school grammar tradition, which
> is understandable, but the lack of that distinction is one of the things
> that constantly causes problems for anyone trying to teach the material
> ("You said only nouns could be plural, but in 'accounts receivable,' the
> adjective is").
>
>
>
> The book is so good in other respects that I've continued to use it,
> using handouts to deal with the form/function distinction. But, of
> course, then the students get annoyed because I'm disagreeing with the
> textbook, and I get annoyed with them because the last thing future
> teachers should do is view a textbook (or their instructor's comments!)
> as Holy Writ.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:00 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Phrasal Verb Overview
>
>
>
> Greetings, ATEGers!
>
>
>
> Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark
> Lester's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'm not sure why I haven't
> discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would suggest it to
> anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in your
> classroom, you and/or your students might enjoy knowing about it as a
> reference text. I find Lester's writing to be straightforward and
> uncluttered. Has anyone actually used this as a classroom text for
> teachers-in-training? If so, I'd be interested to hear about your
> experiences.
>
>
>
> I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal
> verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic
> students but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive
> facts. I thought I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal
> verbs that Lester includes.
>
>
>
> * Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and
> Germanic languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions
> (functional words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the
> preposition to the beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages
> adding them to the end. (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro"
> (swollow) in Latin)
> * When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the
> beginning of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more
> quickly and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it used
> to be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because,
> orthographically, it is written without a space. However, English tends
> to leave the space when the preposition is added to the end of the verb
> stem. (example, "give up")
> * While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a
> tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a
> phrasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has
> become attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester
> continues to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all).
> Lester points out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the
> unit with a single word (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the
> meaning? In this case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester points
> out the irony in the fact that "surrender" was once itself a phrasal
> verb in Latin!)
> * Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference
> between a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For
> example,
>
> John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun
> phrase object)
>
> John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial
> prepositional phrase)
>
>
>
> Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal
> verbs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
>
> * Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look
> down on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
> * Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from
> traditional school grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin
> literally means "to place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions
> couldn't be connected to verbs if they came after them. Sometimes
> phrasal verbs were treated as idioms.
> * Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable
> and inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions
> that can be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example,
> "I gave up the game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up").
> Inseparable phrasal verbs have prepositions that cannot be moved
> (example, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the income on" or *"I
> depend it on").
> * As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a
> separable transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the
> preposition is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and never
> *"I gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with
> some clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this
> sense, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a
> preposition.
>
> Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> John Alexander
>
> Austin, Texas
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--000e0cd303bcec39f60465fc8f4e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The copy I have of Grammar in the Classroom (1990) by Mark Le=
ster is published by Macmillan Publishing Company, a Simon & Schuster C=
ompany. However, it seems to be out of print.
=A0
It appears that he has a newer text called Grammar and Usage in th=
e Classroom (2000) that is published by Longman. Perhaps this is the s=
ame text but revised and updated (and here I am gabbing on about an out of =
print text all this time, tsk tsk).
=A0
Larry, I don't see a Lester grammar text published by Allyn and Ba=
con. Am I missing one? If so, I'd love to look at it!
=A0
John Alexander
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Larry Beason
<LBeason@usoutha=
l.edu> wrote:
The publisher is Allyn and Bacon=
.
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition=
Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile=
AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> "Castilleja, Jan=
et" <Castilleja_j@HERI=
TAGE.EDU> 03/24/09 3:54 PM >>>
I looked for his book as possible text since I don't =
like the book I am
using, but I couldn't find it. =A0Who publishes i=
t?
Thanks
Janet
-----Original Message-----
From: As=
sembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:
[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Larry Beason
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:39 AM<=
br>To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Overview=
)
I'm a little biased because I've co-authored a grammar han=
dbook with
Mark Lester, but I've used his Grammar in the Classroom f=
or many years
and found it effective as well. =A0I can tell you that indeed he wrote it
so that it would match pretty well with traditional grammar instruction,<=
br>though he also adds various twists on it.
One problem deals with =
a few production errors in terms of typos, esp in
the answer key. =A0Not all the corrections he made were actually put intothe book, even in a printing that came out a couple of years ago.
=
Larry Beason
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition D=
irector
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
=
(251) 460-7861
>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 03/24/09 11:52=
AM >>>
John,
I've used Lester's book a number of times in a=
course here for future
English teachers. Overall, I'd say there'=
;s one major problem with it,
but otherwise it's extremely good. The=
problem is that he doesn't make a
clear form/function distinction. I'm not sure why he doesn't - it c=
ould
be that he's trying to stick to the K-12 school grammar traditi=
on, which
is understandable, but the lack of that distinction is one of =
the things
that constantly causes problems for anyone trying to teach the material
=
("You said only nouns could be plural, but in 'accounts receivable=
,' the
adjective is").
The book is so good in ot=
her respects that I've continued to use it,
using handouts to deal with the form/function distinction. But, of
cours=
e, then the students get annoyed because I'm disagreeing with the
te=
xtbook, and I get annoyed with them because the last thing future
teache=
rs should do is view a textbook (or their instructor's comments!)
as Holy Writ.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Be=
half Of John Dews-Alexander
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Phrasal Verb Overview=
Greetings, ATEGers!
Someone (I believe it wa=
s Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark
Lester's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'm not sure why I haven&=
#39;t
discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would suggest=
it to
anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in y=
our
classroom, you and/or your =A0students might enjoy knowing about it as areference text. I find Lester's writing to be straightforward and
u=
ncluttered. Has anyone actually used this as a classroom text for
teache=
rs-in-training? If so, I'd be interested to hear about your
experiences.
I went to the text specifically to find some mo=
re information on phrasal
verbs, information that wasn't overly tech=
nical for non-linguistic
students but also not overly simplified so as t=
o ignore descriptive
facts. I thought I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal<=
br>verbs that Lester includes.
* =A0 =A0 =A0 Lester suggests=
that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and
Germanic languages' proces=
s of creating new words by adding prepositions
(functional words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the
prep=
osition to the beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages
adding=
them to the end. (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) =
and "voro"
(swollow) in Latin)
* =A0 =A0 =A0 When English forms a new word by addin=
g a preposition to the
beginning of a verb stem (example, "bypass&q=
uot; "offset"), it is more
quickly and easily recognized as a =
new word; people forget that it used
to be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because,
orthographic=
ally, it is written without a space. However, English tends
to leave the=
space when the preposition is added to the end of the verb
stem. (examp=
le, "give up")
* =A0 =A0 =A0 While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a p=
ronoun, a
tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pro=
noun and a
phrasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition =
that has
become attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester<=
br>continues to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all).=
Lester points out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the
unit with a single word (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the
m=
eaning? In this case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender."=
; (Lester points
out the irony in the fact that "surrender" wa=
s once itself a phrasal
verb in Latin!)
* =A0 =A0 =A0 Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can =
mark the difference
between a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo =
even more. For
example,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0John turned out the li=
ght. (Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun
phrase object)
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0John turned at the light. (Noun su=
bject+verb+adverbial
prepositional phrase)
=A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal
verb=
s the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
* =A0 =A0 =A0 Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle=
: look
down on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
* =A0 =A0 =A0 Lester =
points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from
traditional school gramma=
rs because the word "preposition" in Latin
literally means "to place before," and it was reasoned that prepo=
sitions
couldn't be connected to =A0verbs if they came after them. S=
ometimes
phrasal verbs were treated as idioms.
* =A0 =A0 =A0 Structur=
al linguists have noted the difference between separable
and inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions
=
that can be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example,
&=
quot;I gave up the game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I =
gave it up").
Inseparable phrasal verbs have prepositions that cannot be moved
(exampl=
e, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the income on"=
; or *"I
depend it on").
* =A0 =A0 =A0 As you can see from =
the above examples, when the object of a
separable transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the
prep=
osition is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and ne=
ver
*"I gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this a=
voided with
some clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In thi=
s
sense, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a
pr=
eposition.
Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
Regards,
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and selec=
t
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
int=
erface at:
=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select &q=
uot;Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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ite at http://ateg.org/<=
br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=
interface at:
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uot;Join or leave the list"
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terface at:
=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"
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--000e0cd303bcec39f60465fc8f4e--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:51:16 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Overview)
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
These publishers keep buying each other and changing names, but I'm pretty =
certain that the Allyn and Bacon printing I have is now the same as the =
Longman, which I think bought out Allyn & Bacon.
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> 03/25/09 9:47 PM >>>
The copy I have of *Grammar in the Classroom* (1990) by Mark Lester is
published by Macmillan Publishing Company, a Simon & Schuster Company.
However, it seems to be out of print.
It appears that he has a newer text called *Grammar and Usage in the
Classroom* (2000) that is published by Longman. Perhaps this is the same
text but revised and updated (and here I am gabbing on about an out of =
print
text all this time, tsk tsk).
Larry, I don't see a Lester grammar text published by Allyn and Bacon. Am =
I
missing one? If so, I'd love to look at it!
John Alexander
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:
> The publisher is Allyn and Bacon.
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
> >>> "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]> 03/24/09 3:54 PM >>>
> I looked for his book as possible text since I don't like the book I am
> using, but I couldn't find it. Who publishes it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Janet
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Larry Beason
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:39 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Overview)
>
> I'm a little biased because I've co-authored a grammar handbook with
> Mark Lester, but I've used his Grammar in the Classroom for many years
> and found it effective as well. I can tell you that indeed he wrote it
> so that it would match pretty well with traditional grammar instruction,
> though he also adds various twists on it.
>
> One problem deals with a few production errors in terms of typos, esp in
> the answer key. Not all the corrections he made were actually put into
> the book, even in a printing that came out a couple of years ago.
>
> Larry Beason
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
> >>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 03/24/09 11:52 AM >>>
> John,
>
>
>
> I've used Lester's book a number of times in a course here for future
> English teachers. Overall, I'd say there's one major problem with it,
> but otherwise it's extremely good. The problem is that he doesn't make a
> clear form/function distinction. I'm not sure why he doesn't - it could
> be that he's trying to stick to the K-12 school grammar tradition, which
> is understandable, but the lack of that distinction is one of the things
> that constantly causes problems for anyone trying to teach the material
> ("You said only nouns could be plural, but in 'accounts receivable,' the
> adjective is").
>
>
>
> The book is so good in other respects that I've continued to use it,
> using handouts to deal with the form/function distinction. But, of
> course, then the students get annoyed because I'm disagreeing with the
> textbook, and I get annoyed with them because the last thing future
> teachers should do is view a textbook (or their instructor's comments!)
> as Holy Writ.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:00 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Phrasal Verb Overview
>
>
>
> Greetings, ATEGers!
>
>
>
> Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark
> Lester's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'm not sure why I haven't
> discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would suggest it to
> anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in your
> classroom, you and/or your students might enjoy knowing about it as a
> reference text. I find Lester's writing to be straightforward and
> uncluttered. Has anyone actually used this as a classroom text for
> teachers-in-training? If so, I'd be interested to hear about your
> experiences.
>
>
>
> I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal
> verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic
> students but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive
> facts. I thought I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal
> verbs that Lester includes.
>
>
>
> * Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and
> Germanic languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions
> (functional words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the
> preposition to the beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages
> adding them to the end. (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro"
> (swollow) in Latin)
> * When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the
> beginning of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more
> quickly and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it used
> to be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because,
> orthographically, it is written without a space. However, English tends
> to leave the space when the preposition is added to the end of the verb
> stem. (example, "give up")
> * While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a
> tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a
> phrasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has
> become attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester
> continues to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all).
> Lester points out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the
> unit with a single word (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the
> meaning? In this case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester points
> out the irony in the fact that "surrender" was once itself a phrasal
> verb in Latin!)
> * Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference
> between a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For
> example,
>
> John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun
> phrase object)
>
> John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial
> prepositional phrase)
>
>
>
> Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal
> verbs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
>
> * Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look
> down on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
> * Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from
> traditional school grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin
> literally means "to place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions
> couldn't be connected to verbs if they came after them. Sometimes
> phrasal verbs were treated as idioms.
> * Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable
> and inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions
> that can be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example,
> "I gave up the game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up").
> Inseparable phrasal verbs have prepositions that cannot be moved
> (example, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the income on" or *"I
> depend it on").
> * As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a
> separable transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the
> preposition is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and never
> *"I gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with
> some clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this
> sense, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a
> preposition.
>
> Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> John Alexander
>
> Austin, Texas
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:18:56 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Overview)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174becfc9076e50465fd13eb
--0015174becfc9076e50465fd13eb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks, Larry. Looks like you're right. There have been lots of merges, and
somewhere along the way Allyn and Bacon became a part of Merrill and
eventually Longman.
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> These publishers keep buying each other and changing names, but I'm pretty
> certain that the Allyn and Bacon printing I have is now the same as the
> Longman, which I think bought out Allyn & Bacon.
>
> Larry
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
> >>> John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> 03/25/09 9:47 PM >>>
> The copy I have of *Grammar in the Classroom* (1990) by Mark Lester is
> published by Macmillan Publishing Company, a Simon & Schuster Company.
> However, it seems to be out of print.
>
> It appears that he has a newer text called *Grammar and Usage in the
> Classroom* (2000) that is published by Longman. Perhaps this is the same
> text but revised and updated (and here I am gabbing on about an out of
> print
> text all this time, tsk tsk).
>
> Larry, I don't see a Lester grammar text published by Allyn and Bacon. Am I
> missing one? If so, I'd love to look at it!
>
> John Alexander
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > The publisher is Allyn and Bacon.
> >
> > Larry Beason
> > Associate Professor & Composition Director
> > Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> > Univ. of South Alabama
> > Mobile AL 36688
> > (251) 460-7861
> >
> > >>> "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]> 03/24/09 3:54 PM >>>
> > I looked for his book as possible text since I don't like the book I am
> > using, but I couldn't find it. Who publishes it?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Janet
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Larry Beason
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:39 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Overview)
> >
> > I'm a little biased because I've co-authored a grammar handbook with
> > Mark Lester, but I've used his Grammar in the Classroom for many years
> > and found it effective as well. I can tell you that indeed he wrote it
> > so that it would match pretty well with traditional grammar instruction,
> > though he also adds various twists on it.
> >
> > One problem deals with a few production errors in terms of typos, esp in
> > the answer key. Not all the corrections he made were actually put into
> > the book, even in a printing that came out a couple of years ago.
> >
> > Larry Beason
> >
> > Larry Beason
> > Associate Professor & Composition Director
> > Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> > Univ. of South Alabama
> > Mobile AL 36688
> > (251) 460-7861
> >
> > >>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 03/24/09 11:52 AM >>>
> > John,
> >
> >
> >
> > I've used Lester's book a number of times in a course here for future
> > English teachers. Overall, I'd say there's one major problem with it,
> > but otherwise it's extremely good. The problem is that he doesn't make a
> > clear form/function distinction. I'm not sure why he doesn't - it could
> > be that he's trying to stick to the K-12 school grammar tradition, which
> > is understandable, but the lack of that distinction is one of the things
> > that constantly causes problems for anyone trying to teach the material
> > ("You said only nouns could be plural, but in 'accounts receivable,' the
> > adjective is").
> >
> >
> >
> > The book is so good in other respects that I've continued to use it,
> > using handouts to deal with the form/function distinction. But, of
> > course, then the students get annoyed because I'm disagreeing with the
> > textbook, and I get annoyed with them because the last thing future
> > teachers should do is view a textbook (or their instructor's comments!)
> > as Holy Writ.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
> > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:00 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Phrasal Verb Overview
> >
> >
> >
> > Greetings, ATEGers!
> >
> >
> >
> > Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark
> > Lester's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'm not sure why I haven't
> > discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would suggest it to
> > anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in your
> > classroom, you and/or your students might enjoy knowing about it as a
> > reference text. I find Lester's writing to be straightforward and
> > uncluttered. Has anyone actually used this as a classroom text for
> > teachers-in-training? If so, I'd be interested to hear about your
> > experiences.
> >
> >
> >
> > I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal
> > verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic
> > students but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive
> > facts. I thought I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal
> > verbs that Lester includes.
> >
> >
> >
> > * Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and
> > Germanic languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions
> > (functional words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the
> > preposition to the beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages
> > adding them to the end. (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro"
> > (swollow) in Latin)
> > * When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the
> > beginning of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more
> > quickly and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it used
> > to be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because,
> > orthographically, it is written without a space. However, English tends
> > to leave the space when the preposition is added to the end of the verb
> > stem. (example, "give up")
> > * While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a
> > tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a
> > phrasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has
> > become attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester
> > continues to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all).
> > Lester points out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the
> > unit with a single word (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the
> > meaning? In this case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester points
> > out the irony in the fact that "surrender" was once itself a phrasal
> > verb in Latin!)
> > * Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference
> > between a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For
> > example,
> >
> > John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun
> > phrase object)
> >
> > John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial
> > prepositional phrase)
> >
> >
> >
> > Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal
> > verbs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
> >
> > * Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look
> > down on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
> > * Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from
> > traditional school grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin
> > literally means "to place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions
> > couldn't be connected to verbs if they came after them. Sometimes
> > phrasal verbs were treated as idioms.
> > * Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable
> > and inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions
> > that can be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example,
> > "I gave up the game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up").
> > Inseparable phrasal verbs have prepositions that cannot be moved
> > (example, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the income on" or *"I
> > depend it on").
> > * As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a
> > separable transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the
> > preposition is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and never
> > *"I gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with
> > some clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this
> > sense, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a
> > preposition.
> >
> > Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > John Alexander
> >
> > Austin, Texas
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0015174becfc9076e50465fd13eb
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, Larry. Looks like you're right. There have been lots of merges,=
and somewhere along the way Allyn and Bacon became a part of Merrill and e=
ventually Longman.
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Larry Beason
<lbeason@usoutha=
l.edu> wrote:
These publishers keep buying eac=
h other and changing names, but I'm pretty certain that the Allyn and B=
acon printing I have is now the same as the Longman, which I think bought o=
ut Allyn & Bacon.
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition=
Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile=
AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> John Dews-Alexander <<=
a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]> 0=
3/25/09 9:47 PM >>>
The copy I have of *Grammar in the Classroom* (1990) by M=
ark Lester is
published by Macmillan Publishing Company, a Simon & S=
chuster Company.
However, it seems to be out of print.
It appears=
that he has a newer text called *Grammar and Usage in the
Classroom* (2000) that is published by Longman. Perhaps this is the same
text but revised and updated (and here I am gabbing on about an out of pri=
nt
text all this time, tsk tsk).
Larry, I don't see a Lester =
grammar text published by Allyn and Bacon. Am I
missing one? If so, I'd love to look at it!
John Alexander
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The publis=
her is Allyn and Bacon.
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Dir=
ector
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
=
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
> >>> &q=
uot;Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]> 03/24/09 3:54 PM >>>
> =A0I looked for his book as possible text since I don't like the b=
ook I am
> using, but I couldn't find it. =A0Who publishes it?>
> Thanks
>
> Janet
>
> -----Original Me=
ssage-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On B=
ehalf Of Larry Beason
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:39 AM
>=
; To: [log in to unmask]<=
/a>
> Subject: Re: Lester's text in the classroom (was: Phrasal Verb Ove=
rview)
>
> I'm a little biased because I've co-authored=
a grammar handbook with
> Mark Lester, but I've used his Grammar=
in the Classroom for many years
> and found it effective as well. =A0I can tell you that indeed he wrote=
it
> so that it would match pretty well with traditional grammar ins=
truction,
> though he also adds various twists on it.
>
>=
One problem deals with a few production errors in terms of typos, esp in
> the answer key. =A0Not all the corrections he made were actually put i=
nto
> the book, even in a printing that came out a couple of years ag=
o.
>
> Larry Beason
>
> Larry Beason
> Associ=
ate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobi=
le AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
> >>> "Sprui=
ell, William C" <sprui1wc@CMI=
CH.EDU> 03/24/09 11:52 AM >>>
> John,
>
>
>
> I've used Lester's book =
a number of times in a course here for future
> English teachers. Ove=
rall, I'd say there's one major problem with it,
> but otherw=
ise it's extremely good. The problem is that he doesn't make a
> clear form/function distinction. I'm not sure why he doesn't -=
it could
> be that he's trying to stick to the K-12 school gramm=
ar tradition, which
> is understandable, but the lack of that distinc=
tion is one of the things
> that constantly causes problems for anyone trying to teach the materia=
l
> ("You said only nouns could be plural, but in 'accounts =
receivable,' the
> adjective is").
>
>
>
> The book is so good in other respects that I've continued to use i=
t,
> using handouts to deal with the form/function distinction. But, =
of
> course, then the students get annoyed because I'm disagreein=
g with the
> textbook, and I get annoyed with them because the last thing future> teachers should do is view a textbook (or their instructor's comm=
ents!)
> as Holy Writ.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
> =
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behal=
f Of John Dews-Alexander
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:00 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> Subject: Phrasa=
l Verb Overview
>
>
>
> Greetings, ATEGers!
>=
>
>
> Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a b=
ook to me: Mark
> Lester's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'=
;m not sure why I haven't
> discovered this book before, but I qu=
ite like it and would suggest it to
> anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in your> classroom, you and/or your =A0students might enjoy knowing about it =
as a
> reference text. I find Lester's writing to be straightforw=
ard and
> uncluttered. Has anyone actually used this as a classroom text for
=
> teachers-in-training? If so, I'd be interested to hear about your<=
br>> experiences.
>
>
>
> I went to the text spe=
cifically to find some more information on phrasal
> verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic=
> students but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptiv=
e
> facts. I thought I'd share here a few of the main points abou=
t phrasal
> verbs that Lester includes.
>
>
>
> * =A0 =A0 =
=A0 Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and
> German=
ic languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions
&=
gt; (functional words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the
> preposition to the beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages<=
br>> adding them to the end. (example, "devour" from "de-=
" (down) and "voro"
> (swollow) in Latin)
> * =
=A0 =A0 =A0 When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the
> beginning of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset&quo=
t;), it is more
> quickly and easily recognized as a new word; people=
forget that it used
> to be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combina=
tion because,
> orthographically, it is written without a space. However, English tend=
s
> to leave the space when the preposition is added to the end of th=
e verb
> stem. (example, "give up")
> * =A0 =A0 =A0 W=
hile a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a
> tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and=
a
> phrasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition tha=
t has
> become attached to a verb in such a way a "particle,&quo=
t; but Lester
> continues to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all=
).
> Lester points out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replac=
e the
> unit with a single word (almost always of Latin origin) and r=
etain the
> meaning? In this case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender=
." (Lester points
> out the irony in the fact that "surrend=
er" was once itself a phrasal
> verb in Latin!)
> * =A0 =
=A0 =A0 Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference
> between a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For
=
> example,
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0John turned out the light.=
(Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun
> phrase object)
>
> =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial
> prepositional phrase)
>
>
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal
> ver=
bs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
>
> *=
=A0 =A0 =A0 Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: loo=
k
> down on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
> * =A0 =A0 =A0 Lester =
points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from
> traditional school g=
rammars because the word "preposition" in Latin
> literally=
means "to place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions
> couldn't be connected to =A0verbs if they came after them. Sometim=
es
> phrasal verbs were treated as idioms.
> * =A0 =A0 =A0 Stru=
ctural linguists have noted the difference between separable
> and in=
separable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions
> that can be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example,=
> "I gave up the game" vs "I gave the game up" o=
r "I gave it up").
> Inseparable phrasal verbs have preposi=
tions that cannot be moved
> (example, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the in=
come on" or *"I
> depend it on").
> * =A0 =A0 =
=A0 As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a
> se=
parable transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the
> preposition is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up&quo=
t; and never
> *"I gave up it." (I think I would cringe if =
I heard this avoided with
> some clunky construction like, "Up i=
t is that I gave it.") In this
> sense, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a
&g=
t; preposition.
>
> Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as mu=
ch as I did!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> John Alexander
>
> Austin, Texas
>
> T=
o join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>=
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and selec=
t
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's we=
b site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visi=
t the list's web
> interface at:
> =A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=
g.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list'=
;s web
> interface at:
> =A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
chives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit AT=
EG's web site at http://=
ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please v=
isit the list's web interface
> at:
> =A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visi=
t ATEG's web site at htt=
p://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list'=
;s web interface
> at:
> =A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
chives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit AT=
EG's web site at http://=
ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please vi=
sit the list's web interface at:
=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select &q=
uot;Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--0015174becfc9076e50465fd13eb--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 02:02:54 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: I and me questions
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-822226325-1238058174=:94520"
--0-822226325-1238058174=:94520
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In Act 3, scene 2 of _The Merchant of Venice_, Shakespeare does write "betw=
een you and I," but=C2=A0he only uses it=C2=A0once (written in a letter fro=
m Antonio; Bassanio reads it aloud): "Sweet Bassanio, my ships have all mis=
carried, my creditors grow cruel, my estate is very low, my bond to the Jew=
is forfeit; and since in paying it, it is impossible I should live, all de=
bts are cleared between you and I, if I might but see you at my death."=C2=
=A0 I find no instance of "between you and me" nor any other use of "betwee=
n you and I" in Shakespeare. =0A=C2=A0=0AI do think the idea that this is a=
new usage (starting in the 1970s) is not accurate. Aside from this one ins=
tance, I suspect there are many that are older than the 1900s. Also, I beli=
eve that the use of 'me' in the subject slot is centuries old (I seem to re=
member seeing it in some of Austen's character's dialogue for example).=0A=
=C2=A0=0APaul E. Doniger=0A"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could c=
ondemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). =0A=0A=
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Dews-Alexander [log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Wednesday, March 25, =
2009 10:28:48 PM=0ASubject: Re: I and me questions=0A=0A=0AJames Cochrane w=
rote a short book/handbook called Between You and I: A Little Book of Bad E=
nglish and claimed that the subject/object pronoun swapping started in the =
70s due to hypercorrection. However, I don't think that is true. I have see=
n many examples of this going very far back to the beginning of Modern Engl=
ish. I've heard that Shakespeare used both "between you and I" and "between=
you and me" and that this may have been common during this time period. =
=0A=0AThere have been great discussions on this list about why this confusi=
on occurs as English grows less dependent on case marking for meaning. Herb=
offered an explanation once that took into account discourse/information s=
tructuring pressures, but I'm not having any luck finding it in the ATEG li=
stserv archives.=0A=0AJohn Alexander=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:53 =
AM, Wollin, Edith <[log in to unmask]> wrote:=0A=0AHere are some question=
s for the group from a colleague.I think they fall in the recent-history-of=
-the-language category:=0A) Was there a specific period in the last 30-40 y=
ears where "people" began=0Ato notice a proliferation of "me" used in the s=
ubject - especially compound=0Asubjects ("John and me will be late") and be=
gan an "education campaign" to=0Acorrect it?=C2=A0 If so, how did the "word=
" get out (newspaper articles, word of=0Amouth, increased emphasis in K-12/=
college) that people needed to be more=0Aconscious/clean up this part of th=
eir grammar?=0AB) Is there any opinion or evidence that a sudden realizatio=
n of the=0Aimproper use of "me" instead of "I" in compound subjects led (vi=
a=0Aovercorrection or other means) to the seemingly recent proliferation of=
the=0Ause of "I" in a compound (or even singular) form in the indirect=0Ao=
bject/subject of the preposition? Eg: "The chocolate cake was a surprise=0A=
for my sister and me."=0AC) Any concrete examples of this overcorrection ma=
king its way into=0Amainstream media (Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Larry King, O=
prah, etc.)?=0AMy own take on this is I started hearing=E2=80=9Cbetween you=
and I=E2=80=9Dfrom even highly educated people in the 80s. I attributed it=
to hypercorrection mixed with a lack of grammar instruction that would hav=
e cued people to know when to use theobjectiveand when thesubjective.It=E2=
=80=99s been in this decade that I=E2=80=99ve heard the I moving to the ind=
irect object and to the objective of prep and subject of infinitive places =
when it is a compound and even sometimes when it is not a compound.=0AEdith=
WollinTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int=
erface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join o=
r leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0ATo join or=
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=
=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
In Act 3, scene 2 of _T=
he Merchant of Venice_, Shakespeare does write "between you and I," but&nbs=
p;he only uses it once (written in a letter from Antonio; Bassanio rea=
ds it aloud): "Sweet Bassanio, my ships have all miscarried, my creditors g=
row cruel, my estate is very low, my bond to the Jew is forfeit; and since =
in paying it, it is impossible I should live, all debts are cleared between you and I, if I might but see you at my deat=
h." I find no instance of "between you and me" nor any other use of "=
between you and I" in Shakespeare.
=0A
=0A
I do think the idea that this is a ne=
w usage (starting in the 1970s) is not accurate. Aside from this one instan=
ce, I suspect there are many that are older than the 1900s. Also, I believe=
that the use of 'me' in the subject slot is centuries old (I seem to remem=
ber seeing it in some of Austen's character's dialogue for example).=
=0A
=0A
Paul=
E. Doniger
=0A
"If this were play'd upon a sta=
ge now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.1=
27-128).=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 10:2=
8:48 PM
Subject: Re: I a=
nd me questions
=0A
James Cochrane wrote a short book/han=
dbook called Between You and I: A Little Book of Bad English and c=
laimed that the subject/object pronoun swapping started in the 70s due to h=
ypercorrection. However, I don't think that is true. I have seen many examp=
les of this going very far back to the beginning of Modern English. I've he=
ard that Shakespeare used both "between you and I" and "between you and me"=
and that this may have been common during this time period.
=0A
=
=0A
There have been great discussions on this list about wh=
y this confusion occurs as English grows less dependent on case marking for=
meaning. Herb offered an explanation once that took into account discourse=
/information structuring pressures, but I'm not having any luck finding it =
in the ATEG listserv archives.
=0A
=0A
John Alexan=
der
=0A
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:53 =
AM, Wollin, Edith
<e=
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=0A
=0A=0A
Here are some questions for the group from a colleague. I think they fall in the recent-history-of-the-language category:
=0A
) Was there a specific period i=
n the last 30-40 years where "people" began
=0A
to notice a proliferation of "me"=
used in the subject - especially compound
=0A
subjects ("John and me will be lat=
e") and began an "education campaign" to
=0A
<=
SPAN lang=3Den-us>correct it? If so, how did the=
"word" get out (newspaper articles, word of
=0A
mouth, increased emphasis in K-1=
2/college) that people needed to be more
=0A
<=
SPAN lang=3Den-us>conscious/clean up this part of thei=
r grammar?
=0A
B) Is there any opinion or evidence that a sudden realization of=
the
=0A
improper use of "me" instead of "I" in compound subjects led (via=
=0A
overcorr=
ection or other means) to the seemingly recent proliferation of the<=
/SPAN>
=0A
use of "I=
" in a compound (or even singular) form in the indirect
=
=0A
object/subject of t=
he preposition? Eg: "The chocolate cake was a surprise
=0A=
for my sister and me."=
=0A
C=
) Any concrete examples of this overcorrection making its way into
=0A
mainstream=
media (Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Larry King, Oprah, etc.)?
=0A
=0A=
My own take on this is=
I started hearing =
=E2=80=9Cbetween you =
and I=E2=80=9D=
from even highly educated p=
eople in the 80s. I attributed it to hypercorrection mixed with a lack of grammar instruction th=
at would have cued people to know when to use the objective and when the subjective. It=E2=80=99s been in this decade that
I=E2=80=99ve heard the I moving to the in=
direct object and to the objective of prep and subject of infinitive places=
when it is a compound and even sometimes when it is not a compound.=
=0A
=0A
Edith Wollin
Visit ATEG's w=
eb site at http=
://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV l=
ist, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0A
Visit ATEG's we=
b site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-822226325-1238058174=:94520--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:58:03 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Phrasal verbs and between you and I
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I was on a committee reviewing the bylaws of an organization. I missed a
meeting
and received the final ballot for voting on changes. Noticing a new change,
I asked
how that change had gotten on the ballot. The obvious response was, "The
committee voted it on."
In dealing with "between you and I", I use the double object of the
preposition and
always put 'between' in with the other prepositions. Because I always start
a
course with an introductory lecture outlining, I use double objects of a
preposition
to show how easy the class will be. Frequently, some student will ask, "you
mean
you can't say "between you and I"? The other students laugh and I respond
that
one may say 'between you and I' or 'Me and John is going to town.' No one
forces
you to use correct English when you talk. You may be evaluated by your
speech if
you apply for a job above manual labor in many cases. Your writing will
almost
certainly be evaluated when applying for college or even clerical positions.
The level of literacy has dropped so low that fewer applicants are excluded
by poor
English today and even literate reviewers tend to drop their standards when
reviewing
an application from a non-native English speaker.
In looking at the number or errors that I make in typing on line, I wonder
whether even
lists as fascinating, entertaining, and helpful as ATEG are not contributing
to the
problem: I an one of the many who have difficulty in catching errors on
screen-and
the grammar checks are ridiculous-they have even declined in quality since
the
early WordStar products.
Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C9ADF9.5AB14A00
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I was on a committee =
reviewing the
bylaws of an organization. I missed a =
meeting
and received the final ballot =
for
voting on changes. Noticing a new change, I =
asked
how that change had gotten on =
the
ballot. The obvious response was, “The =
committee voted it =
on.”
In dealing with =
“between you
and I”, I use the double object of the preposition =
and
always put =
‘between’ in
with the other prepositions. Because I always start a =
course with an introductory =
lecture
outlining, I use double objects of a preposition =
to show how easy the class =
will be. Frequently, some student =
will ask, “you =
mean
you can’t say =
“between
you and I”? The other students laugh and I respond that =
one may say ‘between =
you and I’
or ‘Me and John is going to town.’ No one =
forces
you to use correct English =
when you
talk. You may be evaluated by your speech =
if
you apply for a job above =
manual
labor in many cases. Your writing will
almost
certainly be evaluated when =
applying
for college or even clerical positions. =
The level of literacy has =
dropped so
low that fewer applicants are excluded by =
poor
English today and even =
literate
reviewers tend to drop their standards when =
reviewing
an application from a =
non-native English
speaker.
In looking at the number or =
errors
that I make in typing on line, I wonder whether even =
lists as fascinating, =
entertaining,
and helpful as ATEG are not contributing to =
the
problem: I an one of the many =
who
have difficulty in catching errors on =
screen—and
the grammar checks are =
ridiculous—they
have even declined in quality since the
early WordStar =
products.
Scott Catledge, =
PhD/STD
Professor =
Emeritus
history & =
languages
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C9ADF9.5AB14A00--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:21:28 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Link to informal study on typos
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=20
Dear All:
=20
I ran across this, and thought it might be of interest to the list,
although I think it should be approached with a bit of caution - the
authors got their data from an online survey of readers of the blog they
maintain, so there's an issue with the representativeness of the subject
pool (and no peer-review, etc.). Still, it made a good discussion point
in my grammar class, even after I led in by mentioning the limits on it.
=20
=20
http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2009/03/casual_fridays_whats_wors
e_--.php#more
=20
=20
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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Dear All:
I ran across this, and thought it might be of =
interest to
the list, although I think it should be approached with a bit of caution =
–
the authors got their data from an online survey of readers of the blog =
they
maintain, so there’s an issue with the representativeness of the =
subject
pool (and no peer-review, etc.). Still, it made a good discussion point =
in my
grammar class, even after I led in by mentioning the limits on it. =
http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2009/03/casu=
al_fridays_whats_worse_--.php#more
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:36:13 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Phrasal verbs and between you and I
In-Reply-To: <008201c9ae1a$e1c2ea00$6501a8c0@leordinateur>
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In dealing with matters like these, we're dealing with the same sorts of ma=
tters of taste and judgment that characterize dress and table manners. The=
se are not questions of right or wrong but of the sort of impression one wa=
nts to make on a particular audience. Scott's clearly right that "between =
you and I" does not make the kind of impression one might wish to make in a=
very formal context. However, it's become so common that it would probabl=
y overlooked in speech, certainly moreso than in writing.
"The committee voted it on" is a marvelous sentence. You can vote someone =
on (to) a committee or off it, so elliptically you can vote someone on or o=
ff, which is different from "voting on someone/something," where the meanin=
g can only be that someone/something is the issue at stake in the vote. In=
this latter sense, "vote on" is an inseparable phrasal verb and such sente=
nces can be made passive. "Vote off" feels different. We can "vote someon=
e off" and we can "vote off a whole lot of people at once," so "vote off" l=
ooks separable, except that the latter example is a case of heavy NP shift,=
which makes it a discourse phenomenon similar to the obligatory placement =
of the particle after an object pronoun. Maybe it is possible to say, abou=
t a vote to elect a committee to carry out the garbage that "we'll vote on =
all the people who missed today's meeting," where "on" gets stressed and we=
clearly have heavy NP shift.
So is "vote someone on (to the committee)" an obligatorily separated phrasa=
l verb which can have a postposed object only if the object is a heavy NP? =
I'm not sure that this is a different syntactic phenomenon from Particle S=
hift.
But back to "between you and I." There's been a tendency in English going =
back centuries for the object pronouns to become discourse focus pronouns a=
nd for subject pronouns to be treated as topic pronouns. Since subjects ar=
e usually topics, the subject set will typically appear in subject position=
, but only if the pronoun is the complete subject. As soon as we add anoth=
er pronoun or noun, as in "you and I," there is a strong tendency to say "y=
ou and me" or, more likely "me and you." We get the same use of object pro=
nouns in cases like the following:
Predicate Nominative: Who's there? It's me.
Subject + number: Us two are going to the movies.
Left dislocation: Me, I wouldn't do it that way.
Coordinate subject: Me and Bill are going to the movies.
Single word sentence: Who's there? Me.
While hypercorrection is a common and reasonable explanation for "between y=
ou and I," I don't find it fully convincing. Because 1st and 2nd person ar=
e always topical in a conversation, "I" in "between you and I" reflects tha=
t status and so would sound right to a lot of speakers, not just as a hyper=
correction but as a grammatical form that makes consistent sense.
That said, prescriptive rules are no respecters of language change. Prescr=
iptively we'll have almost as strong a sanction on "between you and I" as w=
e have on "ain't." There's probably no point in fighting either the prescr=
iptive tendency or common usage in a case like this.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: 2009-03-26 09:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Phrasal verbs and between you and I
I was on a committee reviewing the bylaws of an organization. I missed a m=
eeting
and received the final ballot for voting on changes. Noticing a new change=
, I asked
how that change had gotten on the ballot. The obvious response was, "The
committee voted it on."
In dealing with "between you and I", I use the double object of the preposi=
tion and
always put 'between' in with the other prepositions. Because I always star=
t a
course with an introductory lecture outlining, I use double objects of a pr=
eposition
to show how easy the class will be. Frequently, some student will ask, "yo=
u mean
you can't say "between you and I"? The other students laugh and I respond =
that
one may say 'between you and I' or 'Me and John is going to town.' No one =
forces
you to use correct English when you talk. You may be evaluated by your spe=
ech if
you apply for a job above manual labor in many cases. Your writing will al=
most
certainly be evaluated when applying for college or even clerical positions=
.
The level of literacy has dropped so low that fewer applicants are excluded=
by poor
English today and even literate reviewers tend to drop their standards when=
reviewing
an application from a non-native English speaker.
In looking at the number or errors that I make in typing on line, I wonder =
whether even
lists as fascinating, entertaining, and helpful as ATEG are not contributin=
g to the
problem: I an one of the many who have difficulty in catching errors on scr=
een-and
the grammar checks are ridiculous-they have even declined in quality since =
the
early WordStar products.
Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In dealing with matters like these, we’re dealing with=
the
same sorts of matters of taste and judgment that characterize dress and tab=
le
manners. These are not questions of right or wrong but of the sort of
impression one wants to make on a particular audience. Scott’s =
clearly
right that “between you and I” does not make the kind of impres=
sion
one might wish to make in a very formal context. However, it’s
become so common that it would probably overlooked in speech, certainly mor=
eso
than in writing.
“The committee voted it on” is a marvelous sente=
nce.
You can vote someone on (to) a committee or off it, so elliptically you can
vote someone on or off, which is different from “voting on someone/so=
mething,”
where the meaning can only be that someone/something is the issue at stake =
in
the vote. In this latter sense, “vote on” is an inseparab=
le
phrasal verb and such sentences can be made passive. “Vote off&=
#8221;
feels different. We can “vote someone off” and we can =
220;vote
off a whole lot of people at once,” so “vote off” looks
separable, except that the latter example is a case of heavy NP shift, whic=
h makes
it a discourse phenomenon similar to the obligatory placement of the partic=
le
after an object pronoun. Maybe it is possible to say, about a vote to
elect a committee to carry out the garbage that “we’ll vote on =
all
the people who missed today’s meeting,” where “on” =
gets
stressed and we clearly have heavy NP shift.
So is “vote someone on (to the committee)” an
obligatorily separated phrasal verb which can have a postposed object only =
if
the object is a heavy NP? I’m not sure that this is a different
syntactic phenomenon from Particle Shift.
But back to “between you and I.” ThereR=
17;s
been a tendency in English going back centuries for the object pronouns to
become discourse focus pronouns and for subject pronouns to be treated as t=
opic
pronouns. Since subjects are usually topics, the subject set will
typically appear in subject position, but only if the pronoun is the comple=
te
subject. As soon as we add another pronoun or noun, as in “you =
and
I,” there is a strong tendency to say “you and me” or, mo=
re
likely “me and you.” We get the same use of object pronou=
ns
in cases like the following:
Predicate Nominative: Who’s there? It̵=
7;s
me.
Subject + number: Us two are going to the movies.=
Left dislocation: Me, I wouldn’t do it that way.=
Coordinate subject: Me and Bill are going to the movie=
s.
Single word sentence: Who’s there? Me.
While hypercorrection is a common and reasonable explanation=
for
“between you and I,” I don’t find it fully convincing.&nb=
sp;
Because 1st and 2nd person are always topical in a
conversation, “I” in “between you and I” reflects t=
hat
status and so would sound right to a lot of speakers, not just as a
hypercorrection but as a grammatical form that makes consistent sense.=
That said, prescriptive rules are no respecters of language
change. Prescriptively we’ll have almost as strong a sanction o=
n “between
you and I” as we have on “ain’t.” There’=
;s
probably no point in fighting either the prescriptive tendency or common us=
age
in a case like this.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of Engli=
sh
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: 2009-03-26 09:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Phrasal verbs and between you and I
I was on a committee reviewing the bylaws of an
organization. I missed a meeting
and received the final ballot for voting on changes. =
;
Noticing a new change, I asked
how that change had gotten on the ballot. The obvio=
us
response was, “The
committee voted it on.”
In dealing with “between you and I”, I use th=
e
double object of the preposition and
always put ‘between’ in with the other
prepositions. Because I always start a
course with an introductory lecture outlining, I use doub=
le
objects of a preposition
to show how easy the class will be. Frequently, som=
e
student will ask, “you mean
you can’t say “between you and I”? =
;
The other students laugh and I respond that
one may say ‘between you and I’ or ‘Me =
and
John is going to town.’ No one forces
you to use correct English when you talk. You may b=
e
evaluated by your speech if
you apply for a job above manual labor in many cases.&nbs=
p;
Your writing will almost
certainly be evaluated when applying for college or even
clerical positions.
The level of literacy has dropped so low that fewer
applicants are excluded by poor
English today and even literate reviewers tend to drop th=
eir
standards when reviewing
an application from a non-native English speaker.
In looking at the number or errors that I make in typing =
on
line, I wonder whether even
lists as fascinating, entertaining, and helpful as ATEG a=
re
not contributing to the
problem: I an one of the many who have difficulty in catc=
hing
errors on screen—and
the grammar checks are ridiculous—they have even
declined in quality since the
early WordStar products.
Scott Catledge, PhD=
/STD
Professor Emeritus<=
o:p>
history & langu=
ages
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the lis=
t's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E14098BEMAILBACKEND0_--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:38:57 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: between you and I
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1302027074-1238089137=:80997"
--0-1302027074-1238089137=:80997
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=C2=A0
I was on a committee reviewing the bylaws of an organization.=C2=A0 I misse=
d a meeting
and received the final ballot for voting on changes.=C2=A0 Noticing a new c=
hange, I asked
how that change (had gotten) got=C2=A0on the ballot.=C2=A0 The obvious resp=
onse was, =E2=80=9CThe=20
committee voted it on.=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0
I think what happens is that people get used to putting 'had' in front of p=
ast tense verbs (that much is clear) and then when they try to put 'had' in=
front of say 'came', they realize that 'had came' is not right so they set=
tle for 'had come'. There is no way to divine exactly what goes on in their=
heads but this=C2=A0seems to be the best explanation of how the likes of '=
had gotten' come to pass.
=C2=A0
Another way to say it is that when people try to put 'had' in front of=C2=
=A0an irregular verb, they inadvertently=C2=A0force the irregular past part=
iciple.
=C2=A0
.brad.26mar09.=C2=A0=0A=0A=0A
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|
I was on a committee reviewing t=
he bylaws of an organization. I missed a meeting
and received th=
e final ballot for voting on changes. Noticing a new change, I asked<=
/SPAN>
how that change=
(had gotten) got on the ballot. The obv=
ious response was, =E2=80=9CThe
committee voted=
it on.=E2=80=9D
&=
nbsp;
I think what happens is that people get used to puttin=
g 'had' in front of past tense verbs (that much is clear) and then when the=
y try to put 'had' in front of say 'came', they realize that 'had came' is =
not right so they settle for 'had come'. There is no way to divine exactly =
what goes on in their heads but this seems to be the best explanation =
of how the likes of 'had gotten' come to pass.
Another way to say it is that when people try to put 'had' =
in front of an irregular verb, they inadvertently force the irreg=
ular past participle.
.brad.26mar09. |
=0A=0A
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:11:57 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Link to informal study on typos
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED44944415725D0B68FSEMAILfacult_"
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Bill,
Hey, thanks!
I'm teaching the resume in my technical writing class right now.
Students should find this interesting.
Marshall
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Link to informal study on typos
Dear All:
I ran across this, and thought it might be of interest to the list, althoug=
h I think it should be approached with a bit of caution - the authors got t=
heir data from an online survey of readers of the blog they maintain, so th=
ere's an issue with the representativeness of the subject pool (and no peer=
-review, etc.). Still, it made a good discussion point in my grammar class,=
even after I led in by mentioning the limits on it.
http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2009/03/casual_fridays_whats_worse_-=
-.php#more
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
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Bill,
Hey, thanks!<=
/p>
I’m teaching the resume in my te=
chnical
writing class right now.
Students should find this interesting.=
Marshall
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Be=
half
Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 20=
09
1:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Link to informal st=
udy on
typos
Dear
All:
I
ran across this, and thought it might be of interest to the list, although =
I
think it should be approached with a bit of caution – the authors got=
their
data from an online survey of readers of the blog they maintain, so there&#=
8217;s an
issue with the representativeness of the subject pool (and no peer-review,
etc.). Still, it made a good discussion point in my grammar class, even aft=
er I
led in by mentioning the limits on it.
http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2009/03/casual_f=
ridays_whats_worse_--.php#more
Bill
Spruiell
Dept.
of English
Central
Michigan University
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:00:37 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: between you and I
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
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Well, I know I'm going to be remarkably sorry about this.
=20
The use of 'had' or 'have' as auxiliaries always forces the past
participle. That's how English works. "got" and 'gotten' are simply
alternate forms of the past participle of 'get.' It's just easier to
tell that 'gotten' is the past participle because it is irregular, so it
doesn't look like the preterite. The fact that the preterite and the
past participle look identical in regular English verbs doesn't mean
they are the same. This becomes clear when using verbs with irregular
past participles. While we're on the subject, past participles aren't
past, just as present participles aren't present. They have no time;
they are nonfinite. The fact that they are badly named causes no end of
confusion.
=20
Janet
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: between you and I
=20
--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=20
I was on a committee reviewing the bylaws of an organization. I missed
a meeting
and received the final ballot for voting on changes. Noticing a new
change, I asked
how that change (had gotten) got on the ballot. The obvious response
was, "The=20
committee voted it on."
=20
I think what happens is that people get used to putting 'had' in front
of past tense verbs (that much is clear) and then when they try to put
'had' in front of say 'came', they realize that 'had came' is not right
so they settle for 'had come'. There is no way to divine exactly what
goes on in their heads but this seems to be the best explanation of how
the likes of 'had gotten' come to pass.
=20
Another way to say it is that when people try to put 'had' in front of
an irregular verb, they inadvertently force the irregular past
participle.
=20
.brad.26mar09.=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
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charset="us-ascii"
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Well,
I know I’m going to be remarkably sorry about =
this.
The use of ‘had’ or =
‘have’ as auxiliaries always forces the past =
participle. That’s
how English works. “got” and ‘gotten’ are =
simply alternate forms of the past
participle of ‘get.’ It’s just easier to tell =
that ‘gotten’ is the past
participle because it is irregular,
so it doesn’t look like the preterite. The fact that the preterite =
and the past
participle look identical in regular English verbs doesn’t mean =
they are the
same. This becomes clear when using verbs with irregular past =
participles.
While we’re on the subject, past participles
aren’t past, just as =
present
participles aren’t present. They have no time; they are =
nonfinite. The fact
that they are badly named causes no end of =
confusion.
Janet
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On =
Behalf
Of Brad Johnston
Sent: =
Thursday, March 26,
2009 10:39 AM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: between you and =
I
I was on a committee reviewing the bylaws of an
organization. I missed a meeting
and
received the final ballot for voting on changes. Noticing a new =
change, I asked
how that
change (had =
gotten) =
got on
the ballot. The obvious response was,
“The
committee
voted it on.”
<=
font
size=3D2 color=3D"#c00000" face=3DArial>I think what happens
is that people get used to putting 'had' in front of past tense verbs =
(that
much is clear) and then when they try to put 'had' in front of say =
'came', they realize that 'had came' is not =
right so
they settle for 'had come'. There is no way to divine exactly what =
goes on in
their heads but this seems to be the best explanation of how the =
likes
of 'had gotten' come to =
pass.
<=
font
size=3D2 color=3D"#c00000" face=3DArial>Another way to say it is that when people try to =
put
'had' in front of an irregular verb,
they inadvertently force the irregular past =
participle.
<=
font
size=3D2 color=3D"#c00000" face=3DArial>.brad.26mar09.
|
To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
please visit the list's web interface at: =
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and select "Join or leave the list" =
Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:31:42 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: got and gotten; was RE: ATEG Digest - 25 Mar 2009 to 26 Mar 2009
(#2009-67)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Just as an aside, I find hilarious to read a sample of dialog in which
the writer attempt to use 'got' or 'gotten' and falls flat; e.g., I've got
to go = I must go; I've gotten to go = I had the opportunity to go and I
went. Almost always, the writer uses 'gotten' where only 'got' would fit.
Note that 'I got to go' in a past scenario carries the same meaning of
'I've gotten to go.' Colloquially, one may hear 'Well, I got to go' in
the sense of 'I've got to go.'
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
Well, I know I'm going to be remarkably sorry about this.
The use of 'had' or 'have' as auxiliaries always forces the past
participle. That's how English works. "got" and 'gotten' are simply
alternate forms of the past participle of 'get.' It's just easier to
tell that 'gotten' is the past participle because it is irregular, so it
doesn't look like the preterite. The fact that the preterite and the
past participle look identical in regular English verbs doesn't mean
they are the same. This becomes clear when using verbs with irregular
past participles. While we're on the subject, past participles aren't
past, just as present participles aren't present. They have no time;
they are nonfinite. The fact that they are badly named causes no end of
confusion.
=20
Janet
********************************
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:34:55 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED44944415725D0CC0FSEMAILfacult_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED44944415725D0CC0FSEMAILfacult_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ATEG Members,
I am the book review editor for our journal.
I have not received our journal for over two years.
Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea what book reviews =
have run and which haven't.
Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal who would be kind =
enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even part of that t=
ime is OK.
Thanks. This will be a big help.
Best wishes,
Dr. Marshall Myers
Department of English
Eastern Kentucky University
Richmond, KY 40475
[log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED44944415725D0CC0FSEMAILfacult_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ATEG Members,
I am the book review editor for our journal.<=
/span>
I have not received our journal for over two years.=
Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea
what book reviews have run and which haven’t.
Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal=
who
would be kind enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even =
part
of that time is OK.
Thanks. This will be a big help.
Best wishes,
Dr. Marshall Myers
Department of English
Eastern Kentucky
University
Richmond<=
/span>,=
KY 40475
[log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED44944415725D0CC0FSEMAILfacult_--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:45:03 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Wesley K Davis <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Myers, Marshall wrote:
>ATEG Members,
>
>I am the book review editor for our journal.
>
>I have not received our journal for over two years.
>
>Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea what book
reviews have run and which haven't.
>
>Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal who would be
kind enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even part
of that time is OK.
>
>Thanks. This will be a big help.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Dr. Marshall Myers
>Department of English
>Eastern Kentucky University
>Richmond, KY 40475
>
>[log in to unmask]
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
Marshall,
I have not received an issue of the ATEG Journal since Fall 2007, and I
even renewed my membership and subscription for two more years in June
of 2008. Editor Tim Hadley said he would send me the back issues, but I
have not received anything yet.
Wes Davis
Humanities
Dalton State College
650 College Drive
Dalton, Georgia 30720
(706) 272-4444
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:57:48 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Wes,
Thanks for responding. I have heard the same story from another person.
My question now is, Has the journal been published in the last two years?
Marshall
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Wesley K Davis
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 2:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:=20
Myers, Marshall wrote:
>ATEG Members,
>
>I am the book review editor for our journal.
>
>I have not received our journal for over two years.
>
>Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea what book=20
reviews have run and which haven't.
>
>Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal who would be=20
kind enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even part=20
of that time is OK.
>
>Thanks. This will be a big help.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Dr. Marshall Myers
>Department of English
>Eastern Kentucky University
>Richmond, KY 40475
>
>[log in to unmask]
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=20
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
Marshall,
I have not received an issue of the ATEG Journal since Fall 2007, and I=20
even renewed my membership and subscription for two more years in June=20
of 2008. Editor Tim Hadley said he would send me the back issues, but I=20
have not received anything yet.
Wes Davis
Humanities
Dalton State College
650 College Drive
Dalton, Georgia 30720
(706) 272-4444
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:08:03 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 26 Mar 2009 to 27 Mar 2009 (#2009-68)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Why sorry? You said nothing with which that anyone could disagree--
professional naysayers excluded as well as those who are ignorant of
past and preterite. I was merely musing on the hilarious attempts of
non-natives of the Deep South to imitate that regional dialect in
writing. All those who believe that participles have tense need a
basic review of grammar.
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 26 Mar 2009 to 27 Mar 2009 (#2009-68)
There are 4 messages totalling 414 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. got and gotten; was RE: ATEG Digest - 25 Mar 2009 to 26 Mar 2009
(#2009-67)
2. (3)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:31:42 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: got and gotten; was RE: ATEG Digest - 25 Mar 2009 to 26 Mar 2009
(#2009-67)
Just as an aside, I find hilarious to read a sample of dialog in which
the writer attempt to use 'got' or 'gotten' and falls flat; e.g., I've got
to go = I must go; I've gotten to go = I had the opportunity to go and I
went. Almost always, the writer uses 'gotten' where only 'got' would fit.
Note that 'I got to go' in a past scenario carries the same meaning of
'I've gotten to go.' Colloquially, one may hear 'Well, I got to go' in
the sense of 'I've got to go.'
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
Well, I know I'm going to be remarkably sorry about this.
The use of 'had' or 'have' as auxiliaries always forces the past
participle. That's how English works. "got" and 'gotten' are simply
alternate forms of the past participle of 'get.' It's just easier to
tell that 'gotten' is the past participle because it is irregular, so it
doesn't look like the preterite. The fact that the preterite and the
past participle look identical in regular English verbs doesn't mean
they are the same. This becomes clear when using verbs with irregular
past participles. While we're on the subject, past participles aren't
past, just as present participles aren't present. They have no time;
they are nonfinite. The fact that they are badly named causes no end of
confusion.
=20
Janet
********************************
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at:
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:34:55 -0400
From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:
--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED44944415725D0CC0FSEMAILfacult_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ATEG Members,
I am the book review editor for our journal.
I have not received our journal for over two years.
Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea what book reviews =
have run and which haven't.
Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal who would be kind =
enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even part of that t=
ime is OK.
Thanks. This will be a big help.
Best wishes,
Dr. Marshall Myers
Department of English
Eastern Kentucky University
Richmond, KY 40475
[log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED44944415725D0CC0FSEMAILfacult_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ATEG Members,
I am the book review editor for our journal.<=
/span>
I have not received our journal for over two years.=
Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea
what book reviews have run and which haven’t.
Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal=
who
would be kind enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even =
part
of that time is OK.
Thanks. This will be a big help.
Best wishes,
Dr. Marshall Myers
Department of English
Eastern Kentucky
University
Richmond<=
/span>,=
KY 40475
[log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED44944415725D0CC0FSEMAILfacult_--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:45:03 -0400
From: Wesley K Davis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:
Myers, Marshall wrote:
>ATEG Members,
>
>I am the book review editor for our journal.
>
>I have not received our journal for over two years.
>
>Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea what book
reviews have run and which haven't.
>
>Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal who would be
kind enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even part
of that time is OK.
>
>Thanks. This will be a big help.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Dr. Marshall Myers
>Department of English
>Eastern Kentucky University
>Richmond, KY 40475
>
>[log in to unmask]
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
Marshall,
I have not received an issue of the ATEG Journal since Fall 2007, and I
even renewed my membership and subscription for two more years in June
of 2008. Editor Tim Hadley said he would send me the back issues, but I
have not received anything yet.
Wes Davis
Humanities
Dalton State College
650 College Drive
Dalton, Georgia 30720
(706) 272-4444
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:57:48 -0400
From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:
Wes,
Thanks for responding. I have heard the same story from another person.
My question now is, Has the journal been published in the last two years?
Marshall
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Wesley K Davis
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 2:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:=20
Myers, Marshall wrote:
>ATEG Members,
>
>I am the book review editor for our journal.
>
>I have not received our journal for over two years.
>
>Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea what book=20
reviews have run and which haven't.
>
>Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal who would be=20
kind enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even part=20
of that time is OK.
>
>Thanks. This will be a big help.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Dr. Marshall Myers
>Department of English
>Eastern Kentucky University
>Richmond, KY 40475
>
>[log in to unmask]
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=20
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
Marshall,
I have not received an issue of the ATEG Journal since Fall 2007, and I=20
even renewed my membership and subscription for two more years in June=20
of 2008. Editor Tim Hadley said he would send me the back issues, but I=20
have not received anything yet.
Wes Davis
Humanities
Dalton State College
650 College Drive
Dalton, Georgia 30720
(706) 272-4444
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 26 Mar 2009 to 27 Mar 2009 (#2009-68)
**********************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:28:55 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Wesley K Davis <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Myers, Marshall wrote:
>Wes,
>
>Thanks for responding. I have heard the same story from another person.
>
>My question now is, Has the journal been published in the last two
years?
>
>Marshall
>
Marshall,
Thanks for your reply. I have no idea whether there have been any
issues of the ATEG Journal in the last two years. Editor Tim Hadley
told me several weeks ago that he would send me back issues, but I have
not received anything yet.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wesley K Davis
>Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 2:45 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject:
>
>Myers, Marshall wrote:
>
>
>>ATEG Members,
>>
>>I am the book review editor for our journal.
>>
>>I have not received our journal for over two years.
>>
>>Obviously, that causes a problem, because I have no idea what book
>reviews have run and which haven't.
>>
>>Is there somebody out there who is receiving the journal who would be
>kind enough to send me xeroxed copies of the last two years? Even part
>of that time is OK.
>>
>>Thanks. This will be a big help.
>>
>>Best wishes,
>>
>>Dr. Marshall Myers
>>Department of English
>>Eastern Kentucky University
>>Richmond, KY 40475
>>
>>[log in to unmask]
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>Marshall,
>
>I have not received an issue of the ATEG Journal since Fall 2007, and I
>even renewed my membership and subscription for two more years in June
>of 2008. Editor Tim Hadley said he would send me the back issues, but I
>have not received anything yet.
>
>Wes Davis
>Humanities
>Dalton State College
>650 College Drive
>Dalton, Georgia 30720
>(706) 272-4444
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 05:32:15 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: {spam?} Fais mes Devoirs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-229793857-1238502735=:89305"
--0-229793857-1238502735=:89305
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, 3/31/09, Americans In France <[log in to unmask]> wro=
te:
=C2=A0
Do my Homework
=C2=A0
It was short-lived but it did sure make the news. Fais mes Devoirs (Do my H=
omework) was a planned site that would, well, do students homework for them=
- for a price. The day it was planned to launch, it didn=E2=80=99t, and a =
message was posted on the home page explaining that second thoughts were ha=
d and that the site wouldn=E2=80=99t start. That =E2=80=9Cnew technologies =
should serve to make us better and not just help us=E2=80=9D, was part of t=
he message announcing the closure. Here is an article in English about Fais=
mes Devoirs. It was written before the closure.=0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--0-229793857-1238502735=:89305
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
|
Do my Homework
It was short-lived but it did sure make the news. Fais mes Devoirs =
(Do my Homework) was a planned site that would, well, do students homework =
for them - for a price. The day it was planned to launch, it didn=E2=80=99t=
, and a message was posted on the home page explaining that second thoughts=
were had and that the site wouldn=E2=80=99t start. That =E2=80=9Cnew techn=
ologies should serve to make us better and not just help us=E2=80=9D, was p=
art of the message announcing the closure. Here is an article in English about F=
ais mes Devoirs. It was written before the closure. |
=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-229793857-1238502735=:89305--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 06:40:13 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: {spam?} Do My Homework
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-548435220-1238506813=:89785"
--0-548435220-1238506813=:89785
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The computer decided there was something fishy about Fais mes Devoirs, so t=
he computer=C2=A0sent it to you=C2=A0as ...=20
{spam?} Fais mes Devoirs
I'm impressed. Nice catch, Yahoo or Miami of Ohio or whomever. For those wh=
o might have been deterred, here it is again=C2=A0with an English subject l=
ine.
=C2=A0
On Tue, 3/31/09, Americans In France <[log in to unmask]> wro=
te:
=C2=A0
Do my Homework
=C2=A0
It was short-lived but it did sure make the news. Fais mes Devoirs (Do my H=
omework) was a planned site that would, well, do students homework for them=
- for a price. The day it was planned to launch, it didn=E2=80=99t, and a =
message was posted on the home page explaining that second thoughts were ha=
d and that the site wouldn=E2=80=99t start. That =E2=80=9Cnew technologies =
should serve to make us better and not just help us=E2=80=9D, was part of t=
he message announcing the closure. Here is an article in English about Fais=
mes Devoirs. It was written before the closure.=0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--0-548435220-1238506813=:89785
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The computer decided there was something fishy abou=
t Fais mes Devoirs, so the computer sent it to you as ..=
.=20
{spam?} Fais mes Devoirs
I'm impressed. Nice catch, Yahoo or Miami of Ohio or whomever. For tho=
se who might have been deterred, here it is again with an English subj=
ect line.
Do my Homework
It was short-lived but it did sure make the news. Fais mes Devoirs (Do my Homework)=
was a planned site that would, well, do students homework for them - for a=
price. The day it was planned to launch, it didn=E2=80=99t, and a message =
was posted on the home page explaining that second thoughts were had and th=
at the site wouldn=E2=80=99t start. That =E2=80=9Cnew technologies should s=
erve to make us better and not just help us=E2=80=9D, was part of the messa=
ge announcing the closure. Here is an article in English about =
Fais mes Devoirs. It was written before =
the
closure. |
=0A=0A =
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