Craig,
I do believe that you have shown that convince has a
causative element and that it does not exclude the resultive element. The
first is like: “He convinced us that we should vote for BO.” The second is like
“He caused us to believe that BO is the best candidate.” This would clearly make
the third example redundant: “He caused us to believe that we should believe
that BO is the best candidate.” At this point my faith is renewed that disciplined
paraphrase will bring out the meanings, while possibly degrading stylistic
niceties.
Bruce
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "convinces us that..."?
Bruce, et. al.,
I have been wrestling in my mind with the thought that
"convince" may be somewhat causative, even in a sentence like the Poe
sentence.
"He convinced us to vote for Barack Obama." Definitely causative.
"He convinced us that Barack Obama is the best candidate." not so
sure.
"He convinced us to believe that Barack obama is the best candidate."
Seems causative. The meaning seems the same, though it is mildly redundant.
Does that mean the causative meaning is always there, that the clause is
perhaps more a result clause than just the content of a message?
"He told us that Barack Obama is the best candidate"
seems to differ largely by being causatively neutral.
At about this point, I remind myself that our categories are very rough and
that we don't want to distort the nature of language by forcing everything into
a category even when it doesn't seem to fit.
Craig
Bruce Despain wrote:
I guess I’m on to reply to Scott too. Consider my reply
and apology to John; it may help.
He
showed us the tree. subject, verb, indirect object, direct object
He
showed us that the tree was dead. subject, verb, indirect object, clause
as direct object
I
think these verbs are related but different semantically. The first
implies the presence of a tree, whereas the second can be confined to mental
space. The indirect object allows a passive: “We were shown that the tree
was dead.” I’ll just point out parallels in “He showed the tree to us” viz.
“He showed it to us that the tree was dead.” These have the prepositional
phrase as in some of the next examples. The borderline existence of
passives is perhaps pivotal ?“We were shown the tree to” viz. ?“We were
shown it to, that the tree was dead.”
He
proved that the tree was dead. subject, verb, clause as direct object
He
proved to us that the tree was dead. subject, verb, prepositional
phrase, clause as direct object
This
is “indirect object” only semantically. The phrase confines the
mental activity to certain people. We might think there no passive for
it: *”We were proved that the tree was dead.” However: ?”We were proved
it to, that the tree was dead.” This seems to make it arguable that the
p.p. hides a prepositional object.
He
demonstrated that the tree was dead. subject, verb, clause as direct
object
He
demonstrated to us that the tree was dead. subject, verb, prepositional
phrase, clause as direct object
as
with proved. ??”We were demonstrated it to, that the tree was
dead.”
He
convinced the children to study grammar. subject, verb, direct object,
infinitive phrase as a result clause
The
children will study grammar. Result clauses are usually adverbial
adjuncts.
He
convinced us of the truth. subject, verb, direct object, prepositional
phrase
The
truth is object of the preposition. This does not seem to be a phrasal
verb, since the object of the preposition cannot be made subject of a passive
form of the verb. But this may be due to the fact that the verb already
has one direct object. I take the prepositional phrase as adverbial to convince
telling the extent.
He
convinced us that the tree was dead. subject, verb, direct object, clause
as adverb of extent (object of omitted preposition of)
I
think the last two sentences are fully parallel in structure (analogous).
Bruce
From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:37 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "convinces us that..."?
|
List, The following sentences seem similar, but the verbs aren't
interchangeable. Do you agree with my analyses? Any suggestions? <He showed us the tree> Sub, verb, indirect
object, direct object <He showed us that the tree was dead> Sub, verb,
indirect object, clausal direct object <He proved that the tree was dead> Sub, berb,
clausal direct object <He proved to us that the tree was dead> Sub, verb,
indirect object in prepositional phrase, clausal direct object <He demonstrated that the tree was dead> Sub, verb,
clausal direct object <He demonstrated to us that the tree was dead>
Subject, verb, indirect object in prepositional phrase, clausal direct object <He convinced the children to study grammar>
subject, verb, direct object, infinitive phrase (How would you describe the
function of the infinitive?) <He convinced us of the truth> subject, verb, direct
object, prepositional phrase? <of> attached to phrasal verb?, What is
the function of <the truth>? <He convinced us that the tree was dead> subject,
verb, ?,? Is this analogous to the <of the truth> sentence? Scott Woods
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