Thanks, Herb! I just picked up a copy of Lester's Grammar in the Classroom as you suggested and it looks great! I will spend the weekend perusing it and report back to the list some of the things I find useful for the classroom! John On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > John, > > You might check Mark Lester's text Grammar in the Classroom. He has an > excellent treatment of the different sorts of phrasal verbs. > > Herb > > Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D. > Emeritus Professor of English > Ball State University > Muncie, IN 47306 > [log in to unmask] > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [ > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander [ > [log in to unmask]] > Sent: March 4, 2009 1:30 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: "convinces us that..."? > > Bruce, > > Many thanks for this thorough explanation! I had my "aha!" moment finally. > I enjoy discussing phrasal verbs with my students, and I can't wait to > explore the idea of different types of particles. I'm going to head over to > the library today and see if I can find more information about phrasal verbs > and their particles. > > Regards, > > John > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > John > > > > I am sorry that sometimes I do become very terse and sometimes it is due to > muddled thinking. Let me explain the import of my thinking a little more. > I apologize to all for too often using the list to think out loud. I can’t > blame most people who simply ignore my ramblings. > > > > The German may well be a source of confusion, since they use the dative > case as the object of the preposition von, where we have a “genitive” using > the preposition of, but an objective case. The semantics and the syntax in > its morphological manifestation are at odds. I have used the same terms > for both phenomena. When I said “benefactive,” I was referring to the > semantics of a prepositional phrase in for, which is often called a > “dative,” and when I said “dative,” I simply meant what is usually called > the indirect object when expressed without a preposition. > > > > The fact that we express a number of relations in English without the aid > of prepositions can lead to confusion. My attempt has been to sort out the > phrasal verbs into two basic kinds. One kind has an adverb (particle) that > complements it fully, as in “I handed my gun over.” This “over” is similar > to the German “über” in “überzeugen” but in English such particles are > always separable. The second kind of phrasal verb has an adverbial phrase > in the form of a prepositional phrase as its complement. (There are also > combinations, etc.) This preposition is also attached like a particle to > the verb, so that when the verb is not intransitive, the object of the > preposition may be the subject of its passive form. Compare: “The teacher > went over the papers carefully,” vs. “The papers were gone over carefully by > the teacher.” This example is particularly confusing when we see that “I > handed over my gun,” may be likewise compared with “My gun was handed over > by me.” The only way to separate the two uses of over may well be to show > that “I handed it over” works, but *“The teacher went them over” does not. > The adverb particle is thus different from the prepositional particle. > > > > That said, the idea was that the omission of the preposition can make > direct objects of a verb look identical to the prepositional object of a > verb. This was the case with the of-phrase used to complement convince. > When the of > > Is missing the object looks like a direct object. This idea was carried > over to other verbs with a prepositional particle that may be seen to omit > it in certain cases (perhaps?). The so-called indirect object may be seen > to participate in allowing its verb to make it the subject of a passive > form: “I gave him $2” vs. “He was given $2.” What if we acknowledge that > this is equivalent to “I gave $2 to him.” Is this not a prepositional > object of give?. This would suggest that their full passive would be “He was > given $2 to,” which, however, wants to omit its preposition. The regular > omission of the preposition could be explained as by force of the existence > of an indirect object construction that does not use it. (I seem to have > just knocked over a straw man.) > > > > Bruce > > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of > John Dews-Alexander > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 3:13 PM > > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: "convinces us that..."? > > > > I had never considered phrasal verbs taking an object in the way that > prepositional phrases do until Bruce's e-mail. > > > > Bruce, I hope this isn't too general of a request, but could you elaborate > on your second paragraph? I feel like I've almost grasped the concept you're > trying to relay, but I'm missing something. Are you saying that the indirect > object function is not present in this sentence, that it has been omitted? > (And, perhaps, that it would be present if the sentence had the structure, > "Someone/something convinces someone of something for/on behalf of > someone"?) Could you provide an example of what you mean by, "[T]he > dative....appears with the prepositional object of this same sort"? > > > > I think some of my confusion if stemming from some German interference. In > German, "to convince someone of something" would be "jemanden (von etwas) > uberzeugen" (with umlaut on the "u"). The "someone" ("jemanden") is in the > accusative/direct object case, and the "of something" is in the > dative/indirect object case. My understanding of your analysis has the "of > something" as the object of a preposition/phrasal verb but not necessarily > functioning as the indirect object. Have I muddled your intended meaning? > > > > John > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Patty and Scott, > > > > I think Patty is on the right track. The noun clause is the object of the > prepositional verb “convince of” whereas “us” is in the role of direct > object. Something convinces someone of something. The preposition is > regularly omitted when its object is a (factive noun) clause. > > > > What is interesting is that the dative (or benefactive) appears with the > prepositional object of this same sort. However, the person to whom or for > whom the particular action of the verb is performed cannot be expressed with > a factive noun clause, so the confusion does not occur with the loss of the > preposition. The preposition is regularly omitted when its object is a > pronoun and/or it is placed before the object of the verb. This, of course, > is the so-called indirect object, and its surface structure is very similar > to the former case of an omitted preposition. > > > > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of > Patricia Lafayllve > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:56 AM > > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Subject: Re: "convinces us that..."? > > > > A return question… > > > > If we take the original sentence down a bit, we have <language convinces > us>. My eyes read <us> as the direct object, which would then make <that > a…explanation> the clause that answers the question “What” (as in, what does > the language convince us). So…why would we take <us> as the indirect > object? > > > > -patty > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of > Scott Woods > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:40 AM > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: "convinces us that..."? > > > > List, > > I have a few questions about the following sentence: > > <Poe's language, however, gradually convinces us that a purely rational > explanation will not suffice, however neatly it fits the external facts. > > > > > Would you take <us> as the indirect object? Would you take the <that> > clause after it as the direct object? Is this analogous to <He showed us a > monkey>? Does <convince> always take a noun clause object when it takes an > direct object? In <He convinced us>, is <us> now the direct object, that is, > we were the convinced ones, or is there still an implied clausal direct > object leaving <us> as an indirect object? > > > > Thanks, > > Scott Woods > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) > and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all > copies of the original message. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/