Brad,
To chime in here, I think you may be confusing “X means Y”
with “In *standard* English, use Z to mean Y instead, and use it
for Y always.”
As a child, I had no difficulty whatsoever in figuring out that expressions
such as “we done et before she showed up,” “We ate before she
showed up,” and “We had eaten before she arrived” meant
that the first event had completed before the second began. What I was taught
in school was not how to use the second version – instead, it was not
to use the first version, at least in writing, and to prefer the second over
the third (again, in writing). It is the artificialness of these
restrictions that turn them into “teacher points,” and this is one
of those areas where editorial practice is probably more flexible than what
K-12 usage guides would have one believe. We can wear white shoes
after Labor Day, dang it (well, I wear hiking boots, but still….I could
wear white shoes if I wanted to).
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce
Despain
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: learning grammar
I’m not sure that children need to know about
“verbs” and “forms” per se, to avoid mistakes with
them. The pattern they learn has to do with associating the words with
the meanings. Brad seems to be saying the verbs are “ate” and
“had eaten.” Those are the teacher’s terms and not the
child’s. In fact, arguably the verbs are “ate” (past or
preterit form of “eat”) and “had” (past or preterit
form of the verb “have”). “Had eaten” is a verb
phrase consisting of the verb “had” (past or preterit form) and
“eaten” (a participle form of “eat”). This last
form is really an adjective form derived from the verb “eat.”
If we didn’t have certain teachers messing with the children’s
minds, they might understand these concepts better. But it don’t
think it has anything to do with them making “mistakes,” maybe just
with explaining to certain of their teachers what they are doing with the
language.
From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad
Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: learning grammar
|
Inbound
message: These are pervasive patterns in English that children learn
very early in life, well before they start school, and they rarely make
mistakes with them. This is,
as nearly as anyone knows, not what happens. Children have to be taught
that there is a verb form that is useful because it allows us to show that by
the time one past event occurred, another past event had
already occurred. "When the Queen arrived, they ate. When the
Queen arrived, they had eaten". They
ate either after she arrived or before she arrived,
depending on the verb form. This is the only example in the New York Times
Style Book. 'The Queen' example was also sent to me by an English professor
in England who opined that "it's the only way it can be done". .brad.17mar09. |
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