Then we disagree on what’s grammatical, because Greenbaum’s examples are grammatical. Greenbaum wrote a grammar carefully based on usage, and that example, the uhs aside, is grammatical. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston Sent: 2009-04-08 19:16 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Herb re Lester's Grammar --- On Wed, 4/8/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Brad, This is the clearest statement you’ve made of your understanding of past perfect. There are two problems with it. First, it requires that both events be in the same sentence, so a two-clause sentence is required. There is nothing in Lester's examples that gives the slightest intimation that such a conclusion is reasonable. The past perfect does not require that both events be in the same sentence. Everyone at ATEG understands this, Herb. But a past perfect can be used correctly if the other event is in the context .. Resipsa Loquitor. Thou doth preach to the choir .. even in the non-linguistic context. Consider something like the following: A group of us at the conference decided to go to a movie one evening after sessions were over. Most of the group wanted to see “Slum Dog Millionaire.” None of them had seen it. I had. I spent the evening reading the latest Alan Furst novel. Both past perfects occur in single clause sentences. Both refer to a time before the decision. The second problem is that the past perfect can serve either as the past of the past or as the past of the present perfect. Greenbaum (Oxford English Grammar, p. 273) illustrates this with the sentence Uh, had you realized (should read, "did you realize") before this meeting that uh the Scott Cooper’s surveyor (had) has not yet been to the premises? This is not the only past perfect error in Greenbaum, as can be clearly demonstrated. The first past perfect is a past of a past and the second a past of a present perfect. The past perfect is never the past of the past nor is the past perfect the past of the present perfect, as can be clearly demonstrated. (The uhs are in the original because Greenbaum’s grammar uses almost exclusively example sentences from the International Corpus of English--Great Britain (ICEGB) and the Wall Street Journal. They represent English usage from 1989-1993. Greenbaum does not edit the examples. He should if he's going to include them in a grammar book. Others have gotten themselves into this same bind. Herb All of that notwithstanding, Herb, it would be ever so pleasant of you to comment on the Lester items below, i.e., what is there as opposed to what is not there. Lester wrote the book; I didn't. .brad.08apr09. P.S. I just wrote these words to Craig. I think I'm willing to stand behind them, just as they stand. "If you can't define it, and explain it, and illustrate it, in a way that fits any and all circumstances, you don't understand it." If you, Herb, can't define the past perfect, and explain it, and illustrate it, in a way that fits any and all circumstances, you don't understand it. If you can, please show us. Otherwise, you have no (what-the-courts-call) "standing". Don't lay it back on me and don't tell me what Huddleston thinks. If you can do it, do it. If you can't, well, maybe you should just quiet down a bit and let others have a go at it. .bradagain.08apr09. From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston Sent: 2009-04-08 09:25 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Lester's Grammar in the Classroom Grammar in the Classroom, by Mark Lester, c.1990. <page 100> Compare the following two sentences. Past: We went to the movies. right Past perfect: We had gone to the movies when you called. right <page 102> Consider the following sentences. John has brushed his teeth. right Phil had ordered breakfast. wrong* <page 103> Verb Phrase: had been working = past perfect progressive right (no capital letter, no period) <page 104> 9. He had nearly wrecked the turntable. wrong* Exercise 3.4, #4: The company had invented a new mousetrap. wrong* <page 236> Exercise 6.4 #2: John had brushed his teeth. wrong* #4: A student had reported the accident. wrong* <page 238> Exercise 6.5 #9. It had touched a nerve. wrong* I have read that this is the most widely-used grammar textbook in the land. What I've shown above is a mere sampling but it's enough to know that the author either doesn't understand the past perfect or .. or what? Could there be any other explanation? This is Exhibit #102 to my assertion that there is at least one past perfect error on any grammar website or in any grammar textbook you can name. Challenges are welcome, encouraged, and appreciated. .brad.08apr09. * The example sentences marked wrong* are incorrect because they stand alone, without context. The past perfect is used to denote that an earlier past event was completed before a later past event. None of the sentences so marked have the necessary two timing elements. The correct sentence above, We had gone to the movies when you called, has two elements of timing: (1) when we went to the movies and (2) when you called, both completed in the past, one before the other. "By the time something happened, something else had already happened." To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/