Bill, John Wade, my dean, says "hello." He related a story about your blueberry picking. Sorry for the interruption. Marshall Eastern Kentucky University -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:18 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86) Scott: I've had similar students --- but the advice they need is more along the lines of, "use specific nouns, not fluffy ones." The problem really isn't the adjectives and adverbs. And at least some of those students aren't deliberately being verbose, or displaying signs of functional illiteracy (they probably know a fair number of highly specific nouns...but they're part of the students' passive vocabulary, rather than being part of the active pool that is deployed when writing). Instead, they've adopted a common strategy of marking out a general area with the noun and then using modifiers to home in on a particular spot in within it. In fact, it's the same thing professional writers do when they come out with sentences such as "The fact that these results have been observed indicates that the phenomenon is real." "Fact" is fluffy -- but since I know the genre, I know when I can get away with using it (if that sentence bothers you, all I can say is that amazing numbers of articles have been published with near-equivalents). Students pick up on that kind of practice, but they don't yet have enough exposure to scientific genre to know which words can be used in particular cases without coming across as "gauche." This simply highlights one of Pullum's points: One of S&W's major injunctions is that writers should be clear and concise, but they wrote THEIR OWN RULE in a way that attacked a side effect of the actual problem rather than the problem itself, and implied there was something wrong with entire classes of words that are only problematic when they're used as part of a compensation mechanism. It's as if I watched someone using glue to connect two pieces of wood that should instead have been nailed together, and then proclaimed that glue is a bad thing. I'd probably figure out my mistake once I saw people trying to nail wallpaper. Bill Spruiell -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:08 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86) Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not understand what The Little Book means by "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs," they insist. (The motivation of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.) Anyone who had ever graded English themes, especially descriptive writing, has been exposed to students who use plain verbs and generic nouns, both of which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs and adjectives respectively when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do a far better job with less effort. The only explanation that I can give for such students is either functional illiteracy or sheer laziness (many theme assignments have--or used to have--a minimum number of words). The slovenly among them use any gimmick to expand their impoverished thoughts and expression. I cannot believe that Professor Pulliam has taught English without having encountered such students: his extreme prejudice towards The Little Book seems to have blinded him to the extent that he can only see vices and never virtue. The Little Book has its faults; however, I would trust Shrunk and White over a "grammarian" who has had too little contact with writing to understand the motivation for the very sound advice: "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs." (The motivation of this decree is quite clear to me and has been since Freshman English.) Scott Catledge Professor Emeritus During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I had a bumper sticker that said, "My God is alive--sorry about yours." My understanding of the "motivation" is clear to me--sorry it's not clear to him. Perhaps he should teach a Freshman English course sometime. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/