Scott, I'll creep out on a limb and defend "[The fact that X] V...]" constructions. To quasi-summarize findings from several studies (Swales's text on graduate writing discusses some of these, if I remember correctly) they *do* perform a function that a simple nominal that-clause in initial position doesn't: they let you modulate the strength of the claim. They do so in a way that actually strengthens the point that you and I think S&W were potentially aiming for, though: That the fall of Rome was entirely due to barbarians is..... The assertion that the fall of Rome was entirely due to barbarians is.... The claim that the fall of Rome was entirely due to barbarians... The belief that the fall of Rome was entirely due to barbarians... Despite their being rather vague when unmodified, nouns like "claim" and "belief" do let the writer construct a more carefully-targeted message, and thus they're quite useful in academic writing. Again, the issue here is not exactly fluffy nouns in general, nor is it adjectives and adverbs -- it's purposeless (or mis-purposed) vagary. I just wish S&W had stuck to something like, "think about why you're picking the words you use." Orwell gets that basic idea across in a much shorter piece than S&W ("Politics and the English Language"), and even has the wisdom to include as his last rule an injunction to break any of the preceding rules if following them produces something awful. Sincerely, Bill Spruiell -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:57 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: S&W & What dunnit? was ATEG Digest - 15 Apr 2009 to 16 Apr 2009 (#2009-87) I. Bill-- Obviously you understood what S&W meant--unlike the intellectually (or grammatically) impoverished Pulliam, who had no idea. I agree with you that S&W could be better worded. You make the accurate point that students go generic then use modifiers to hone in on the meaning. I pointed out in my classes that first you write, then you rewrite. I quoted, "To the beauty of fair Greece and the glory of old Rome" and asked the students if the lines sounded like great poetry--they always laughed and commented, "maybe for a 7th grader" or something else of that ilk. When I repeated, "To the glory that was Greece and the grandeur that was Rome," the students always said, "Much better," or "That's beautiful," etc. I would reply that Poe believed in rewriting. We would then discuss an anonymous inflated sentence or confused paragraph to see how it could be improved. The author almost always appreciated the input. The fact that some writers claiming to be professional writers use "The fact that" does not make it any more felicitous. Notice how my sentence would be improved by deleting the initial "The fact." I not only persisted in using a green pen on themes that used the phrase, "The fact that"; in writing argumentative papers but also offered extra credit for anyone using "the fact that" in a simple context that could not be improved either by a mere deletion or by a deletion and substitution of a gerund. My idea of a professional writer is William Buckley or Edwin Newman. If we, however, are talking of fiction writers, I am quite a Clancy fan. He makes errors in grammar, languages, and ancient history; however, that his modern data is accurate is quite an asset to the tales that he tells. In a meeting of the Federal Executive Board in Los Angeles, I stated that the illiteracy of the guidance issued by the Office of Personnel Management and other Federal agencies left a door wide open for any literate lawyer, specialist, or union steward to profit from their poor English. The speaker, to my pleasant surprise, agreed with me wholeheartedly and expressed the wish that literate reviewers could be hired to review all written materials; however, such people were far too scarce and did not qualify for any direct hire--they had to be contract personnel and contracts, by Federal law, did not guarantee specific personnel. Note that many "professional writers" are in advertising: "Winston tastes good as a cigarette should" lacks oomph. Hitchcock, on the other hand, attracted much attention by having billboards that announced, "The birds is coming." II. "These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe." "These" were determined by what? Who or what determined "These"? What agent determined "These"? Where the speaker need to breathe determined "These." Where's the beef? Where's the phrasal verb? Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:01 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 15 Apr 2009 to 16 Apr 2009 (#2009-87) There are 9 messages totalling 2307 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86) (3) 2. object of a preposition? (6) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:08:23 -0400 From: Scott <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86) Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not understand what The Little Book means by "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs," they insist. (The motivation of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.) Anyone who had ever graded English themes, especially descriptive writing, has been exposed to students who use plain verbs and generic nouns, both of which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs and adjectives respectively when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do a far better job with less effort. The only explanation that I can give for such students is either functional illiteracy or sheer laziness (many theme assignments have--or used to have--a minimum number of words). The slovenly among them use any gimmick to expand their impoverished thoughts and expression. I cannot believe that Professor Pulliam has taught English without having encountered such students: his extreme prejudice towards The Little Book seems to have blinded him to the extent that he can only see vices and never virtue. The Little Book has its faults; however, I would trust Shrunk and White over a "grammarian" who has had too little contact with writing to understand the motivation for the very sound advice: "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs." (The motivation of this decree is quite clear to me and has been since Freshman English.) Scott Catledge Professor Emeritus During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I had a bumper sticker that said, "My God is alive--sorry about yours." My understanding of the "motivation" is clear to me--sorry it's not clear to him. Perhaps he should teach a Freshman English course sometime. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:18:26 -0400 From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86) Scott: I've had similar students --- but the advice they need is more along the lines of, "use specific nouns, not fluffy ones." The problem really isn't the adjectives and adverbs. And at least some of those students aren't deliberately being verbose, or displaying signs of functional illiteracy (they probably know a fair number of highly specific nouns...but they're part of the students' passive vocabulary, rather than being part of the active pool that is deployed when writing). Instead, they've adopted a common strategy of marking out a general area with the noun and then using modifiers to home in on a particular spot in within it.=20 In fact, it's the same thing professional writers do when they come out with sentences such as "The fact that these results have been observed indicates that the phenomenon is real." "Fact" is fluffy -- but since I know the genre, I know when I can get away with using it (if that sentence bothers you, all I can say is that amazing numbers of articles have been published with near-equivalents). Students pick up on that kind of practice, but they don't yet have enough exposure to scientific genre to know which words can be used in particular cases without coming across as "gauche." This simply highlights one of Pullum's points: One of S&W's major injunctions is that writers should be clear and concise, but they wrote THEIR OWN RULE in a way that attacked a side effect of the actual problem rather than the problem itself, and implied there was something wrong with entire classes of words that are only problematic when they're used as part of a compensation mechanism. It's as if I watched someone using glue to connect two pieces of wood that should instead have been nailed together, and then proclaimed that glue is a bad thing. I'd probably figure out my mistake once I saw people trying to nail wallpaper. Bill Spruiell -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:08 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86) Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not understand what The Little Book means by=20 "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs," they insist. (The motivation of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.) Anyone who had ever graded English themes, especially descriptive writing, has been exposed to students who use plain verbs and generic nouns, both of which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs and adjectives respectively when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do a far better job with less effort. The only explanation that I can give for such students is either functional illiteracy or sheer laziness (many theme assignments have--or used to have--a minimum number of words). The slovenly among them use any gimmick to expand their impoverished thoughts and expression. I cannot believe that Professor Pulliam has taught English without having encountered such students: his extreme prejudice towards The Little Book seems to have blinded him to the extent that he can only see vices and never virtue. The Little Book has its faults; however, I would trust Shrunk and White over a "grammarian" who has had too little contact with writing to understand the motivation for the very sound advice: "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs."=20 (The motivation of this decree is quite clear to me and has been since Freshman English.) Scott Catledge Professor Emeritus During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I had a bumper sticker that said, "My God is alive--sorry about yours." My understanding of the "motivation" is clear to me--sorry it's not clear to him. Perhaps he should teach a Freshman English course sometime. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:46:48 -0700 From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: object of a preposition? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BED4.75AF32D8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello =20 How would you analyze this sentence? =20 These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe. =20 Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the preposition 'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman's Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. In either case would 'where the speaker would need to breathe' be a nominal? I guess it could be. We can say 'where we go to dinner is up to you,' for example. =20 Janet To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BED4.75AF32D8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:Arial; color:windowtext;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Hello<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>How would you analyze this = sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>These were determined by where the speaker would need = to breathe.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Is ‘where the speaker would need to = breathe’ the object of the preposition ‘by’? Is ‘determined = by’ possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman’s<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'> Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs</span></i>. It = wasn’t in there. In either case would ‘where the speaker would need = to breathe’ be a nominal? I guess it could be. We can say = ‘where we go to dinner is up to you,’ for = example.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Janet<b><span = style=3D'font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></b></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BED4.75AF32D8-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:57:03 -0400 From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86) Bill, John Wade, my dean, says "hello." He related a story about your blueberry p= icking. Sorry for the interruption. Marshall Eastern Kentucky University -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:18 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009= (#2009-86) Scott: I've had similar students --- but the advice they need is more along the lines of, "use specific nouns, not fluffy ones." The problem really isn't the adjectives and adverbs. And at least some of those students aren't deliberately being verbose, or displaying signs of functional illiteracy (they probably know a fair number of highly specific nouns...but they're part of the students' passive vocabulary, rather than being part of the active pool that is deployed when writing). Instead, they've adopted a common strategy of marking out a general area with the noun and then using modifiers to home in on a particular spot in within it.=20 In fact, it's the same thing professional writers do when they come out with sentences such as "The fact that these results have been observed indicates that the phenomenon is real." "Fact" is fluffy -- but since I know the genre, I know when I can get away with using it (if that sentence bothers you, all I can say is that amazing numbers of articles have been published with near-equivalents). Students pick up on that kind of practice, but they don't yet have enough exposure to scientific genre to know which words can be used in particular cases without coming across as "gauche." This simply highlights one of Pullum's points: One of S&W's major injunctions is that writers should be clear and concise, but they wrote THEIR OWN RULE in a way that attacked a side effect of the actual problem rather than the problem itself, and implied there was something wrong with entire classes of words that are only problematic when they're used as part of a compensation mechanism. It's as if I watched someone using glue to connect two pieces of wood that should instead have been nailed together, and then proclaimed that glue is a bad thing. I'd probably figure out my mistake once I saw people trying to nail wallpaper. Bill Spruiell -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:08 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86) Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not understand what The Little Book means by=20 "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs," they insist. (The motivation of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.) Anyone who had ever graded English themes, especially descriptive writing, has been exposed to students who use plain verbs and generic nouns, both of which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs and adjectives respectively when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do a far better job with less effort. The only explanation that I can give for such students is either functional illiteracy or sheer laziness (many theme assignments have--or used to have--a minimum number of words). The slovenly among them use any gimmick to expand their impoverished thoughts and expression. I cannot believe that Professor Pulliam has taught English without having encountered such students: his extreme prejudice towards The Little Book seems to have blinded him to the extent that he can only see vices and never virtue. The Little Book has its faults; however, I would trust Shrunk and White over a "grammarian" who has had too little contact with writing to understand the motivation for the very sound advice: "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs."=20 (The motivation of this decree is quite clear to me and has been since Freshman English.) Scott Catledge Professor Emeritus During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I had a bumper sticker that said, "My God is alive--sorry about yours." My understanding of the "motivation" is clear to me--sorry it's not clear to him. Perhaps he should teach a Freshman English course sometime. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:31:49 -0500 From: Gerald Walton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: object of a preposition? --=====================_434817671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In my view, "by" is a regular preposition. And, yes, the noun clause "the speaker would need to breathe where" is the object of the preposition. Gerald At 03:46 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: >Hello > >How would you analyze this sentence? > >These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe. > >Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the >preposition 'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I >checked Longman's Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. >In either case would 'where the speaker would need to breathe' be a >nominal? I guess it could be. We can say 'where we go to dinner is >up to you,' for example. > >Janet >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --=====================_434817671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mulnx11.mcs.muohio.edu id n3GLWi8C015725 <html> <body> In my view, "by" is a regular preposition. And, yes, the noun clause "the speaker would need to breathe where" is the object of the preposition.<br> Gerald<br><br> At 03:46 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote:<br> <blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D""><font size=3D2>Hello<br> <br> How would you analyze this sentence?<br> <br> These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe.<br> <br> Is =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 the object of the preposition =91by=92? Is =91determined by=92 possibly a phrasal verb? I= checked Longman=92s<i> Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs</i>. It wasn=92t in there. In either case would =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 be a nomi= nal? I guess it could be. We can say =91where we go to dinner is up to you,=92= =20 for example.<br> <br> Janet<br> </font>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" eudora=3D"autou= rl"> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" <br><br> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" eudora=3D"autourl">http://ateg.org/</a> </blockquote></body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --=====================_434817671==.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:47:29 -0700 From: "Kathleen M. Ward" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: object of a preposition? --Apple-Mail-19--381755388 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And "were determined" is passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is =20= sometimes called the "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is =20= a phrasal verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however. KMW On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote: > Hello > > How would you analyze this sentence? > > These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe. > > Is =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 the object of the =20 > preposition =91by=92? Is =91determined by=92 possibly a phrasal verb? = I =20 > checked Longman=92s Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn=92t in there. = =20 > In either case would =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 be = a =20 > nominal? I guess it could be. We can say =91where we go to dinner is = =20 > up to you,=92 for example. > > Janet > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20 > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =20 > select "Join or leave the list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Apple-Mail-19--381755388 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">And "were determined" is = passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is sometimes called the = "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb. = It occurs a lot in the passive voice, = however.<div><br></div><div>KMW<br><div><div>On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 = PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: = normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: = normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: = 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" = vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"Section1"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; = margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: = 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" = face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; = ">Hello<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; = margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: = 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" = face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; = "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; = margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: = 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" = face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">How = would you analyze this sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New = Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: = 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New = Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: = 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">These were determined by where the speaker = would need to breathe.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New = Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: = 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New = Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: = 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Is =91where the speaker would need to = breathe=92 the object of the preposition =91by=92? Is =91determined = by=92 possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman=92s<i><span = style=3D"font-style: italic; "><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Dictionary of Phrasal = Verbs</span></i>. It wasn=92t in there. In either case would = =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 be a nominal? I = guess it could be. We can say =91where we go to dinner is up to = you,=92 for example.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New = Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: = 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New = Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: = 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Janet<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold; = "><o:p></o:p></span></b></span></font></div></div>To join or leave this = LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" style=3D"color: = blue; text-decoration: underline; = ">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>and select "Join or leave = the list"<p>Visit ATEG's web site at<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; = ">http://ateg.org/</a></p></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></bo dy= ></html>= To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Apple-Mail-19--381755388-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:31:13 -0400 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: object of a preposition? --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E1409F8EMAILBACKEND0_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with analyzing the sentence,= at least on first pass, is the independent relative that serves as the obj= ect of the preposition "by." We don't think of clauses as agents, but the = by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree limb. However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with the well-known exce= ption of cases like James Bond broke the window with the Russian. There is, however, a broader semantic category that works here, called "sou= rce." "...where the speaker needs to breathe" is the source whatever "thes= e" refers to. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward Sent: 2009-04-16 17:47 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: object of a preposition? And "were determined" is passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is some= times called the "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a phrasa= l verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however. KMW On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote: Hello How would you analyze this sentence? These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe. Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the preposition = 'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman's Dic= tionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. In either case would 'where = the speaker would need to breathe' be a nominal? I guess it could be. We = can say 'where we go to dinner is up to you,' for example. Janet To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E1409F8EMAILBACKEND0_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"= > <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.apple-style-span {mso-style-name:apple-style-span;} span.apple-converted-space {mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap: break-wor= d; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with analyzin= g the sentence, at least on first pass, is the independent relative that serv= es as the object of the preposition “by.” We don’t thi= nk of clauses as agents, but the by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree limb.<o:p></o:p>= </span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with the well-known exception of cases like<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>James Bond broke the window with the Russian.<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>There is, however, a broader semantic category that works he= re, called “source.” “…where the speaker needs to breath= e” is the source whatever “these” refers to.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for = the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf = Of </b>Kathleen M. Ward<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2009-04-16 17:47<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal>And "were determined" is passive voice, maki= ng the "by" phrase what is sometimes called the "agent" phrase= . So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>KMW<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:<= o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>Hello</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>How would you analyze this sentence?</span><span style=3D'colo= r: black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>These were determined by where the speaker would need to breat= he.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>Is ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’ the o= bject of the preposition ‘by’? Is ‘determined by’ possibly= a phrasal verb? I checked Longman’s<span class=3Dapple-converted-space><i> </i></s= pan><i>Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs</i>. It wasn’t in there. In either case would = ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’ be a nominal? I guess it could b= e. We can say ‘where we go to dinner is up to you,’ for exam= ple.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>Janet</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica"= ,"sans-serif"; color:black'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w= eb interface at:<span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.m uoh= io.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>and select "Join or leave t= he list"<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black'>Visit ATEG's web site at<span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&n= bsp;</span><a href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E1409F8EMAILBACKEND0_-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:14:09 -0400 From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: object of a preposition? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BF02.48615564 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The sentence can be recast as an active, and I can see the nominal wh-clause as a metaphorical agent (and yes, I'm not sure what the difference between "source" and "metaphorical agent" is either!): =20 Where the speaker needs to breathe determined this. =20 If that sounds a bit odd, maybe this works a bit better, since it's less context-dependent: =20 What the participants asked for determined what they got. =20 =20 Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:31 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: object of a preposition? =20 I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with analyzing the sentence, at least on first pass, is the independent relative that serves as the object of the preposition "by." We don't think of clauses as agents, but the by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in=20 =20 The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree limb. =20 However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with the well-known exception of cases like =20 James Bond broke the window with the Russian. =20 There is, however, a broader semantic category that works here, called "source." "...where the speaker needs to breathe" is the source whatever "these" refers to. =20 Herb =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward Sent: 2009-04-16 17:47 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: object of a preposition? =20 And "were determined" is passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is sometimes called the "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however. =20 KMW On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote: =20 Hello =20 How would you analyze this sentence? =20 These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe. =20 Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the preposition 'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman's Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. In either case would 'where the speaker would need to breathe' be a nominal? I guess it could be. We can say 'where we go to dinner is up to you,' for example. =20 Janet To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BF02.48615564 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.apple-style-span {mso-style-name:apple-style-span;} span.apple-converted-space {mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} span.EmailStyle21 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>The sentence can be recast as an active, and I can see = the nominal wh-clause as a metaphorical agent (and yes, I’m not sure = what the difference between “source” and “metaphorical = agent” is either!):<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Where the speaker = needs to breathe determined this.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>If that sounds a bit odd, maybe this works a bit better, = since it’s less context-dependent:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>What the participants asked for determined what they = got.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Central Michigan University<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span >= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly = for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>STAHLKE, HERBERT F<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:31 PM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with = analyzing the sentence, at least on first pass, is the independent relative that = serves as the object of the preposition “by.” We don’t = think of clauses as agents, but the by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in = <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree = limb.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with = the well-known exception of cases like<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>James Bond broke the window with the = Russian.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>There is, however, a broader semantic category that works = here, called “source.” “…where the speaker needs = to breathe” is the source whatever “these” refers to.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span >= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly = for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>Kathleen M. Ward<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2009-04-16 17:47<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal>And "were determined" is passive voice, = making the "by" phrase what is sometimes called the "agent" = phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb. = It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>KMW<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'>Hello</span><span = style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span = style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'>How would you analyze this sentence?</span><span = style=3D'color: black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span = style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'>These were determined by where the speaker would need to = breathe.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span = style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'>Is ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’ = the object of the preposition ‘by’? Is ‘determined by’ = possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman’s<span = class=3Dapple-converted-space><i> </i></span><i>Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs</i>. It wasn’t in there. In either case = would ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’ be a nominal? I guess it = could be. We can say ‘where we go to dinner is up to you,’ for = example.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span = style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black'>Janet</span><span = style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at:<span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.m u= ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>and select "Join or = leave the list"<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black'>Visit ATEG's web site at<span = class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit = the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit = the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BF02.48615564-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:16:14 -0400 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: object of a preposition? --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E1409FAEMAILBACKEND0_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've taught and studied semantic roles and categories, and I don't think an= yoneis sure what some of these differences are. Any scheme of semantic rol= es runs in problems of overlap like agent-instrument-source, patient-recipi= ent-experiencer, and I fear my distinction among them is as arbitrary as mo= st of the others. I like fuzzy logic, and so saying that a source is a met= aphorical agent appeals to me. But then I can't tell the difference betwee= n Bud and Miller either. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: 2009-04-16 22:14 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: object of a preposition? The sentence can be recast as an active, and I can see the nominal wh-claus= e as a metaphorical agent (and yes, I'm not sure what the difference betwee= n "source" and "metaphorical agent" is either!): Where the speaker needs to breathe determined this. If that sounds a bit odd, maybe this works a bit better, since it's less co= ntext-dependent: What the participants asked for determined what they got. Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:31 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: object of a preposition? I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with analyzing the sentence,= at least on first pass, is the independent relative that serves as the obj= ect of the preposition "by." We don't think of clauses as agents, but the = by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree limb. However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with the well-known exce= ption of cases like James Bond broke the window with the Russian. There is, however, a broader semantic category that works here, called "sou= rce." "...where the speaker needs to breathe" is the source whatever "thes= e" refers to. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward Sent: 2009-04-16 17:47 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: object of a preposition? And "were determined" is passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is some= times called the "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a phrasa= l verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however. KMW On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote: Hello How would you analyze this sentence? These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe. Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the preposition = 'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman's Dic= tionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. In either case would 'where = the speaker would need to breathe' be a nominal? I guess it could be. We = can say 'where we go to dinner is up to you,' for example. Janet To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E1409FAEMAILBACKEND0_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"= > <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.apple-style-span {mso-style-name:apple-style-span;} span.apple-converted-space {mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} span.EmailStyle21 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} span.EmailStyle22 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap: break-wor= d; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>I’ve taught and studied semantic roles and categories,= and I don’t think anyoneis sure what some of these differences are. Any scheme of= semantic roles runs in problems of overlap like agent-instrument-source, patient-rec= ipient-experiencer, and I fear my distinction among them is as arbitrary as most of the others.= I like fuzzy logic, and so saying that a source is a metaphorical agent appea= ls to me. But then I can’t tell the difference between Bud and Mil= ler either.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for = the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf = Of </b>Spruiell, William C<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2009-04-16 22:14<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>The sentence can be recast as an active, and I can see the nominal wh-clause as a metaphorical agent (and yes, I’m not sure what= the difference between “source” and “metaphorical agent”= ; is either!):<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11= .0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Where the speaker needs t= o breathe determined this.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>If that sounds a bit odd, maybe this works a bit better, sin= ce it’s less context-dependent:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>What the participants asked for determined what they got.<o:= p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Central Michigan University<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for = the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>ST= AHLKE, HERBERT F<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:31 PM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with analyzin= g the sentence, at least on first pass, is the independent relative that serv= es as the object of the preposition “by.” We don’t thi= nk of clauses as agents, but the by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in <o:p></o:p></span= ></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree limb.<o:p></o:p>= </span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with the well-known exception of cases like<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>James Bond broke the window with the Russian.<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>There is, however, a broader semantic category that works he= re, called “source.” “…where the speaker needs to= breathe” is the source whatever “these” refers to.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",= "sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for = the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf = Of </b>Kathleen M. Ward<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2009-04-16 17:47<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal>And "were determined" is passive voice, maki= ng the "by" phrase what is sometimes called the "agent" phrase= . So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>KMW<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:<= o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>Hello</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>How would you analyze this sentence?</span><span style=3D'colo= r: black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>These were determined by where the speaker would need to breat= he.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>Is ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’ the o= bject of the preposition ‘by’? Is ‘determined by’ possibly= a phrasal verb? I checked Longman’s<span class=3Dapple-converted-space><i> </i></s= pan><i>Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs</i>. It wasn’t in there. In either case would = ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’ be a nominal? I guess it could b= e. We can say ‘where we go to dinner is up to you,’ for exam= ple.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"; color:black'>Janet</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica"= ,"sans-serif"; color:black'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w= eb interface at:<span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.m uoh= io.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>and select "Join or leave t= he list"<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black'>Visit ATEG's web site at<span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&n= bsp;</span><a href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E1409FAEMAILBACKEND0_-- ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 15 Apr 2009 to 16 Apr 2009 (#2009-87) ********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/