From: Craig Hancock
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To:
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Sent:
Friday, April 17, 2009 9:05:43 AM
Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG
Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009 (#2009-86)
Bill,
Scott,
If the corpus grammars tell it accurately, writing with nouns
and verbs is good advice for fiction (Biber found a negative correlation for
attributive adjectives), but not for journalism or academic writing, which build
lots of meaning into the noun phrases. Of course, saying adjectives should
be used sparingly is not the same as saying they are unimportant. The lone
adjective may be the most important word in the sentence. But English teachers
especially seem to equate literacy with literature.
I thought Pullum
was a bit arrogant in the review, a bit disrespectful of the writing teacher's
perspective. And it may very well be that linguists are much to blame for not
giving us a discourse friendly grammar to work with. There's some good advice in
the little book, but enough problems to negate that out. I usually tell students
who own the book not to pay attention to anything but the style
sections.
Craig
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> Scott:
>
> I've had similar students --- but the advice they need is more along
the
> lines of, "use specific nouns, not fluffy ones." The problem
really
> isn't the adjectives and adverbs. And at least some of those
students
> aren't deliberately being verbose, or displaying signs of
functional
> illiteracy (they probably know a fair number of highly
specific
> nouns...but they're part of the students' passive vocabulary,
rather
> than being part of the active pool that is deployed when
writing).
> Instead, they've adopted a common strategy of marking out a
general area
> with the noun and then using modifiers to home in on a
particular spot
> in within it.
> In fact, it's the same thing
professional writers do when they come out
> with sentences such as "The
fact that these results have been observed
> indicates that the phenomenon
is real." "Fact" is fluffy -- but since I
> know the genre, I know when I
can get away with using it (if that
> sentence bothers you, all I can say
is that amazing numbers of articles
> have been published with
near-equivalents). Students pick up on that
> kind of practice, but they
don't yet have enough exposure to scientific
> genre to know which words
can be used in particular cases without coming
> across as
"gauche."
>
> This simply highlights one of Pullum's points: One of
S&W's major
> injunctions is that writers should be clear and concise,
but they wrote
> THEIR OWN RULE in a way that attacked a side effect of
the actual
> problem rather than the problem itself, and implied there was
something
> wrong with entire classes of words that are only problematic
when
> they're used as part of a compensation mechanism. It's as if I
watched
> someone using glue to connect two pieces of wood that should
instead
> have been nailed together, and then proclaimed that glue is a
bad thing.
> I'd probably figure out my mistake once I saw people trying
to nail
> wallpaper.
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:08 PM
> To:
[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr
>
2009 (#2009-86)
>
> Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not
understand what The Little Book
> means by "Write with nouns and verbs,
not with adjectives and adverbs," they
> insist.
> (The motivation
of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.)
>
> Anyone who
had ever graded English themes, especially descriptive
> writing,
>
has been exposed to students who use plain verbs and generic nouns, both
>
of
> which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs and adjectives
>
respectively
> when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do a far better
job with
> less
> effort. The only explanation that I can give
for such students is
> either
> functional illiteracy or sheer
laziness (many theme assignments have--or
> used to have--a minimum number
of words). The slovenly among them use
> any
> gimmick to
expand their impoverished thoughts and expression.
>
> I cannot
believe that Professor Pulliam has taught English without
> having
>
encountered such students: his extreme prejudice towards The Little Book
>
seems to have blinded him to the extent that he can only see vices and
>
never
> virtue. The Little Book has its faults; however, I would
trust Shrunk
> and
> White over a "grammarian" who has had too
little contact with writing to
> understand the motivation for the very
sound advice:
>
> "Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives
and adverbs." (The motivation of this decree is quite clear to me and has been
since
> Freshman English.)
>
> Scott Catledge
>
Professor Emeritus
>
> During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I
had a bumper sticker that
> said,
> "My God is alive--sorry about
yours."
>
> My understanding of the "motivation" is clear to
me--sorry it's not
> clear
> to him. Perhaps he should teach a
Freshman English course sometime.
>
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