Bruce,
I use the same strict definition of “tense” as you
do – but at the same time, I can’t help but think of that sense of
mild annoyance I get when someone tries to tell me I’m not allowed to use
the word “bug” for spiders (long before biologists adopted a
specialized meaning of the term, “bug” referred to crawly things). My
English ed. students, I think, have the same reaction when I start talking
about tense – it really boils down to a dispute over who “owns”
the definition of a word, and of course, no one really does unless trademark
law in involved. I can’t really blame my students if they quietly decide
that the general public has not officially granted linguists the right to
redefine terms of usage that existed long before there were linguists. We
perhaps should have made up a completely new term, but that trick never goes
over well except in science fiction (“I will refer to the set of affixes
marking these categories directly on verbs as florsh”). There are
no good solutions.
I would have no problem whatsoever criticizing a linguist for
using the folk meaning of tense if s/he’s writing for an audience
of linguists (not that that ever happens – try it on a comprehensive exam
and you’re looking at an extra semester’s work at minimum and at
maximum an enforced change of career plans), but grammarians writing for the
general public may not feel that they wield power of redefinition, and their
editors may enforce the folk definition anyway. We can argue that English
doesn’t treat present and past the same as it does various flavors of “future-ish,”
and that progressive and perfect are separate issues from present vs. past,
etc., and back all that up with tons of evidence. Those distinctions are
relevant regardless of what we call them (and it’s not like major English
grammarians like Curme and Jespersen failed to notice this stuff). We can’t,
however, demand that everyone accept our labels for all that, although
we can certainly try to sweet-talk people into it.
---- Bill Spruiell
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: cutting the pear in half
Craig,
I agree with your comments, except in the one point, which we
have discussed – terminology. I take “tense” as
strictly a label for verb forms and “time” a label for
meaning. Verbs definitely exhibit an active fault line through the
connection between tense and time, where the modal auxiliaries seem to have
broken quite free. The other auxiliaries seem to maintain the boundary
between form and meaning (“have” vs. “had” and
“is” vs. “was”), hence the discussion relating to the
“past perfect tense.” I like the idea of “finite
grounding” to refer to something that often happens in the verb phrase,
but I don’t think we can always point there for it. As you imply
the past tense form of the modals seems to supply the subjunctive alias
conditional, which meaning is still maintained by a different form of
“be” (“is” vs. “were”)
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:38 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: cutting the pear in half
Bruce,
For the most part, I like your analysis. "Would" is
definitely a preterit historically, which opens up the question of whether it
has now floated free of that history. At any rate, without the perfect aspect
(as in "would have to go dutch"), it may well refer to something that
hasn't occured yet. "If he doesn't come, we would have to go dutch."
It adds a conditional sense. The sense of past time in this phrase comes from
the perfect aspect. "We would have had to go dutch" clearly relates
to a hypothetical reality for which possibility has passed. In "would have
to", the "have" is not related to perfect aspect, but to an
additional modal meaning. For that reason, "would had to" is
ungrammatical. The "tense" (finite grounding) can only happen once.
When "would" refers to past time, it generally does so as repeated or
habitual action. "I would leave for work at eight." It isn't used
that way for conditional reference (without aspect).
I tend to look at "have to" and "had to" as
periphrastic modals (very close to must.) Ordinarily, the "have" or
"had" would designate tense, but you are right about this one--the
"had" is past participle to "have". "I could have a
V-8" (currently possible) means something different from "I could
have had a V-8", where the possibility is now over. But in neither case
("could have had a V-8" or "would have had to go dutch")
does the past time come from the modal.
I'm also a little nervous about calling "would" past
tense of the auxiliary, since it doesn't pair up with "will" very
neatly as just a time change option. But we have had that discussion
previously. I offer it, not as argument, but as alternative view.
It's hard to talk about this stuff without it seeming complicated.
And I think we are observing the same elephant, just differing on how we want
to name what we are seeing.
Craig
Bruce Despain wrote:
I think it is unfortunate that there are so many grammarians for
which “tense” is attributed to such a great deal of different forms
and syntactic structures. “Verb tense” is literally the form
that a verb takes as the main verb in a sentence. There are four verbs in
the reply in question: “would,” “have,”
“had,” and “go.” We recognize that the form
“would” is a variant of “will.” This form is
historically a preterit, which is often found in sentences referring to past
time: “Yesterday I would go, but not today.” That is the main
verb in the sentence, so that is the answer to Brad’s question.
For many grammarians, that answer is not adequate. What
about all the other verbs in the verb phrase? Aren’t they participating
in making a “tense”? Indeed, the English language does have
multiple ways to build structures using multiple verbs to express other nuances
of meaning besides time or tense. These dimensions of meaning have
acquired other terminology to distinguish them from tense, such as aspect and
mood. But their correspondence is not to a simple form of the verb, but
to a periphrastic structure containing several verbs.
Let’s see how the verb phrase is built up of smaller
pieces and see how the “tense” has been shifted across other
forms. The main verb, as far as carrying content is concerned, is the
infinitive form “go” following a marker “to” (related
historically to a preposition). “Infinitive” means that it
does not carry tense. It is a noun form called a verbal. The phrase
“have to go” is a way of expressing an obligation. The verb
“have” is also an auxiliary. In the phrase in question it is
in the form of another verbal, an adjective form called a participle. The
participle “had” is not a finite form of the verb either, so it
can’t carry tense. There are two participles in English and this
one has the name of “past participle.” It is there because of
another auxiliary “have” as in “I have almost
finished.” This auxiliary “have” forms a phrase with
the past participle to express an aspect called “perfect.” We
could call it an aspectual auxiliary. This is not tense either, though
many still refer to it by its corresponding Latin form “perfect
tense.” The form “would” is a modal auxiliary and must
be used with another verb whose form is infinitive. That is why the
“have” that follows it is the infinitive (no tense).
Therefore, the tense falls on the modal auxiliary. The verb phrase
consists of a string of 5 words: Would (past tense of modal aux) + Have (inf.
of aspectual aux) + Had (p.part. of periphrastic obligative verb) + To (prep.
as inf. marker) + go (inf. of main verb). [Actually, I
suppose, “go ‘dutch’” is the main verb -- an adverb
compounded with the verb “go,” but this analysis gets into
constructional grammar.]
I believe it was Chomsky in 1957 who first suggested a formal
description of the verb phrase with these kinds of forms ordered rigorously with
each part optionally manifested but conditioning the form of the part to
follow. The terminology and instruction in such terms seem to have lagged
somewhat behind.
From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:13 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: cutting the pear in half
"I'm sorry I can't make it." "That's O.K. We would have had to go 'dutch'
anyway." What's the verb tense in the reply? .brad.24apr09. |
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