Thanks for the wonderful example, Janet. My students write like this all the time, and I think Craig's right: they don't talk like this. Peter On May 19, 2009, at 12:01 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote: > I have always worked with developmental writers at the college level > (32 > years). In all that time, I don't think I have ever tried to teach > students to vary sentence starts. The only time I talk to students > about how sentences start is if they are starting sentences in a way > that interferes with such things as old-new information placement, > coherence and other factors which interfere with the reader's > ability to > understand. > > The following is a passage written by a student exiting a > developmental > composition class. Several of the sentences seem to illustrate this > problem. It's not that the sentences are too uniform; it's that the > information seems to show up in the wrong place. My personal take on > this is that the student is learning to use sources and write more > sophisticated sentences, but she hasn't had a lot of practice. It's > pretty easy for students to get into a sentence and then not be able > to > figure out how to get out. Also, she may not have been taught to > consider the needs of her audience. We use a sentence combining > workbook > in these classes; I think I see evidence that she is trying to use > some > of those structures. I think students at this stage need assistance > in > learning to make conscious choices about sentence structure which will > lead to clearer, more coherent, and reader-friendly writing. Of > course, > I am fortunate that at my institution, classes are small, so I have > time > to work with students individually. > > > "For example, eating a great amount of popcorn in a large container > proves a behavior in mind and not of hunger. It is an amazing > discovery > of what this can do in our behavior. A choice that is made by the mind > and not the stomach is part of a behavior and choice that we tend to > make. An educator discovered that food size does matter in the way of > making the right choice. This is one study of method discovered by an > educator by the name of Brian Wansink, who attempted several different > scientific tests. Comparing size portions of food and the size of > dishware has a lot to do with how choices and behaviors are made by > people discovered by Mr. Wansink, the author of the book," Mindless > Eating." Decisions made by people are like a structural design of > choices was another discovery made by a psychologist. The way choices > are presented to people is a question of making the right one. The > point > is, we need to consider the importance of making the right decisions, > eating habits, and the state of mind." > > Janet > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 5:59 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions > > It's a delight to be away from the list for a day and then find my > position so well argued in the meantime. > The "training wheels" metaphor would work if "varying sentence > openers" > was an easier way to write. It's not. It's a little like trying to get > kids to learn to ride with one eye shut. It's not good advice or good > training. > > Craig> > > Varying sentence openings is a topic in every handbook ever written, >> beginning in very early years---at least by grade seven, I'm sure--- >> and continuing into every college handbook on the market. You'd >> think >> with that much repetition, it would have taken hold somewhere along >> the line. >> I'd rather see the space devoted to how to achieve coherence. >> >> Ed >> >> On May 18, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Jan Kammert wrote: >> >>> I think it was someone on this list who, months ago, talked about >>> training wheels in teaching. Telling students to vary the way their >>> sentences start seems to me like training wheels. >>> >>> Eventually the wheels come off. It is hard to get those wheels off >>> for some kids, though. Today a student told me that a sentence >>> cannot start with a pronoun. I have never heard that one before! >>> >>> Are you familiar with 6 trait writing? One of the traits is >>> sentence fluency. One part of sentence fluency is starting >>> sentences in different ways. Craig, if you can look at 6 trait >>> writing, I'd love to hear what you think about it. >>> Jan >>> >>> >>> ---------- Original message from Susan van Druten > <[log in to unmask] >>>> : ---------- >>> >>> >>>> Craig, >>>> Unless you have taught average students in high school (or younger >>>> grades), I think you should rethink your stance. Don't just trust >>>> me >>>> on this. Maybe others who are on this list will chime in: Is >>>> teaching struggling writers to consider varying their sentence >>>> start >>>> is a helpful strategy? If you were intimately familiar with that >>>> type of student writing, you would know that I am not exaggerating >>>> just how robotic their essays can be. >>>> >>>> When I cover parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk >>>> about the difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, >>>> humor, >>>> known-new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy >>>> writing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 18, 2009, at 8:30 AM, Craig Hancock wrote: >>>> >>>>> Susan, >>>>> If I saw the same writing, I might very well agree that change is >>>>> needed, but I wouldn't use "sentence variety" as a motivation. I'm >>>>> sure >>>>> we can find many instances where good writers maintain subjects >>>>> for >>>>> longer stretches than that. The last time this came up on the >>>>> list, I >>>>> was teaching Frost's "Acquainted With the Night" and observed that >>>>> ALL >>>>> the sentences in that poem begin with "I have." Look closely at >>>>> Obama's >>>>> acclaimed speech on race, and you'll see many instances of >>>>> sentence >>>>> openers repeated many times. I kn ow that because my grammar class >>>>> worked on a passage as an optional final. >>>>> Francis Christensen deals with many of these issues in "Notes >>>>> toward a >>>>> new Rhetoric" in an essay called "Sentence Openers." (Among other >>>>> things, he reports in his samples that 8.75% of sentences in >>>>> expository >>>>> writing for professional writers start with the fanboy >>>>> conjunctions. In >>>>> fiction, it was 4.55%. He called it a sign of "a mature style.") > The >>>>> essay is largely an argument against calls for unique sentence >>>>> openers >>>>> for purposes of variety. >>>>> He ends the essay in this way: "What we need is a rhetorical >>>>> theory of >>>>> the sentence that will not merely combine the ideas of primer >>>>> sentences, but will generate new ideas. In such a rhetoric, > sentence >>>>> elements would not be managed arbitrarily for the sake of >>>>> secondary >>>>> concerns such as variety. They would be treated functionally and > the >>>>> variety--and its opposite, parallelism and balance--allowed to >>>>> grow >>>>> from the materials and the effort to communicate them to the >>>>> reader." >>>>> since Ed brought up the issue, I would add that he found about >>>>> 28.5% of >>>>> sentences in professional expository writing open with adverbials. >>>>> The >>>>> number is smaller (20%) for fiction. There is great variability, >>>>> though, byu author. The highest he found was for Rachel Carson's >>>>> "The >>>>> Sea Around Us", 79/200, almost 40%. The most common subject in >>>>> fiction, >>>>> by the way, is a pronoun. >>>>> >>>>> Craig> >>>>> >>>>> Craig, >>>>>> >>>>>> Varying sentence starts and known-new are different concepts. >>>>>> Students should do both. You have nicely analyzed my writing, >>>>>> but >>>>>> your analysis is irrelevant to my point. >>>>>> >>>>>> My students start their sentences with "He" five times in a row. >>>>>> Or >>>>>> "There is" or "It is" five times in a row. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 17, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Craig Hancock wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Susan, >>>>>>> I honestly didn't get the point. But let me try again to >>>>>>> describe your >>>>>>> own writing. "We" brings you and I into focus. "a teacher" is >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> subject of the subordinate clause that starts sentence two. "I" > is >>>>>>> main >>>>>>> clause subject. "That" refers back to the previous two sentences >>>>>>> and is >>>>>>> hardly "stylistic" in its choice. Do you start the second >>>>>>> paragraph >>>>>>> with "but" to prove a point? It seems a very good example of >>>>>>> what I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> talking about earlier. "A teacher" heads that sentence, a >>>>>>> carryover >>>>>>> from the previous paragraph and very much a given. Students then >>>>>>> come >>>>>>> into play, with "they" in the subordinate clause subject slots. > "A >>>>>>> teacher" is again the subject of the next sentence. "I" is the >>>>>>> subject >>>>>>> of the next two sentences, and "they" (standing in for students) >>>>>>> ends >>>>>>> the paragraph. You are doing what I am talking about, making the >>>>>>> starts >>>>>>> of your sentences "given", even repeating subjects ("a teacher", >>>>>>> "they", "I")to build coherence. In almost every case, there is >>>>>>> nothing >>>>>>> about the subject itself that calls attention. It's "given", >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> attention on the new information to follow. >>>>>>> If you are speaking/writing about your own understandings > (your >>>>>>> surprise at what I believe, what you have noticed, your >>>>>>> intentions and >>>>>>> expectations), then "I" is the natural choice of subject. The >>>>>>> "new" >>>>>>> information comes in the second part of the sentences. I suspect >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> the sentences in the third paragraph are short and clipped >>>>>>> because you >>>>>>> want them to sound simple, but the "I" subjects don't pose a >>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>> I do not vary my subjects. If anything, I work hard to keep a >>>>>>> topic in >>>>>>> focus for longer stretches of text, something I'm told the >>>>>>> computer >>>>>>> assessments are designed to pick up as a sign of sophistication. >>>>>>> Inexperienced writers jump topics (and subjects) much too >>>>>>> quickly, and >>>>>>> it's not unusual for them to say they have been taught to do > that. >>>>>>> (Notice how "Inexperienced writers" is followed by "them" and >>>>>>> "they" in >>>>>>> the above compound sentence. "It's" is a dummy subject. "They" >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> starts the sentence to come.) They may be naturually coherent, > but >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been advised against following those instincts when they write. >>>>>>> If you pick up a collection of award winning essays, you'll > find >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> point verified essay after essay. Good writers repeat. They >>>>>>> sustain >>>>>>> subjects for long stretches, building in new information as they >>>>>>> go. >>>>>>> You also seem to do that when you write, at least in your recent >>>>>>> post. >>>>>>> I always spend time with classes looking at exactly this >>>>>>> coherence >>>>>>> building in effective texts. I underline the subjects in a >>>>>>> paragraph of >>>>>>> student writing just to direct attention to how quickly a topic > is >>>>>>> shifting in their text. They see it right away and adjust. >>>>>>> Our advice should be based on observations about how meaning >>>>>>> happens >>>>>>> and on how effective writing works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 16, 2009, at 9:20 PM, Craig Hancock wrote: >>>>>>>>> You don't help students by giving them >>>>>>>>> a false description of language because you believe they >>>>>>>>> aren't >>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>> of the truth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe we don't actually disagree. If a teacher actually told > her >>>>>>>> students that good writers never start sentences with the word >>>>>>>> "because" or an essay that doesn't have a thesis at the end of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> first paragraph is wrong and an example of bad writing, then I > am >>>>>>>> with you. That is false information. >>>>>>>>>>>>> But a teacher who tells her students that they can only >>>>>>>>>>>>> write in >>>>>>>> pencil, or that they must show their work, or that their essay >>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>> have 5 paragraphs is not giving them false information. Should > a >>>>>>>> teacher clarify that the rule about "because" is only for this >>>>>>>> class >>>>>>>> and that when they are older they may break this rule? Yes. I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> that probably does happen. I think it is too much for some >>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>> to process, and what they retain is just the rule itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Vary sentence starts" would be another example of bad advice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am surprise that you believe this. I notice you vary your >>>>>>>> sentence >>>>>>>> starts. I do too. I would only break that rule to prove a >>>>>>>> point. I >>>>>>>> hope I have proved it. I am not sure if I have. I hope you >>>>>>>> will let >>>>>>>> me know. >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/