I am curious about Brad’s “true” definition of past perfect. I
cannot agree that it is “tense” and he cannot admit that anyone knows its
definition. I think Brad wants the semantics of a sentence (interpretation) to
correspond one-to-one with its syntax (pattern and structure of its words and
larger units of text). Yet no linguist has been successful in demonstrating that
such a correspondence exists and no linguist has proposed a theory that the
majority can agree with. I believe that lack of correspondence is one reason
why there are so many theories of language structure out there.
Bruce
From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad
Johnston
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 9:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: How well-crafted English works
"All artists quiver under the lash of adverse
criticism", Catherine Drinker Bowen. Scott. Note that I wrote to you privately and YOU took it
public. I have agreed to not pursue the past perfect on the list but I will
reply the same way your message came to me, as I was taught is
polite. You wrote and I corrected, "I (had read) read most
of the classics (in English) -- fiction and non-fiction -- before high
school", and you object. So you would prefer to say that World War One had been
fought before World War Two, and that I had thought
twice before I responded to your message? He (had been) was thoroughly
disillusioned by the bigotry and stupidity of the dean at a time on the past. All past events were preceded by other past events. The past
tense of 'to be' is 'was' (singular) and 'were' (plural), NOT 'had
been'. Her taking of classes was a completed action before her past
tense claim. So she had taken Cicero her junior year
and Virgil her senior year, rather than "She took Cicero her
junior year .."? One has to
complete one's junior year before one can be a senior. If you think that's how the past perfect works, I wonder
how you define it. Go ahead and try it. I've invited many ATEGians to do so
and not a single one can do it. That's how far behind we (the
English-speaking world) are in teaching a useful tense, the past perfect (by
whatever name). One man tried it by saying, "The past perfect is
'had' plus the past participle", which is more than a tad shy of the
mark, rather like saying a train is a thing with wheels (as are rickshaws and
lawn mowers). .cheers.brad.22may09.
Our
correction of papers a completed action before our past return of the papers
to the professors( —or our geese would have been cooked). My
seeing was in the past; the inaction of the students was a completed past
(in)action before my past seeing took place. At the
time in the past when the last meeting occurred, my colleague most certainly
“was NOT enthusiastic” or he would not have been seeking another
position. He had been thoroughly dis ill usioned by the bigotry and
stupidity of the dean at a time on the past. Not even the grossest of nescience
can justify the ignorance/ ill iteracy shown in the suggested change to the
sentence. If you know that little about English, you are wasting
my time and everyone else’s on this list. I have
more to do than waste my time with a patently ill iterate commenter. Do not
bother replying; I shall not waste my valuable time reading such
asininities. I
disagree very strongly with some of the posters but I respect their
opinions. Your usage of tenses would rate an F in my eighth-grade
English class if
I were teaching one again. In my seventh grade class, I would only fail
you after I had taught sequence of tenses. I should remark that none of
my seventh-grade students failed a test requiring them to write using correct
sequence of tenses. Then again, they were primarily the children
of homes where the parents read no newspapers or magazines. N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD Professor Emeritus history & languages From:
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