Bruce and Craig: The analogy with "mightily" was one I thought was useful, but it may have skewed my interpretation manner-wards. One kind of "extent" would involve words like "partially" or "completely," while "mightily" strikes me as having a manner-y element to it. I can try to weasel out of the problem by arguing "his best" is a *gradable* manner, but I have no idea how I'd pin that down via co-occurrence patterns (is it an extentful manner, or a mannerish extent?). There are probably some dissertations on this somewhere, and the fact that I have a whajillion papers to grade is rendering the entire question fascinating.... Bill Spruiell -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig Hancock Sent: Sun 5/3/2009 1:55 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: New Sentence Bruce, Nice point. A parallel might be "all his might", probalby shortened down from "with all his might." "He tried all his might to express what love meant to him." Craig> I would also think that the "his best" phrase is adverbial. My take is > that it is not telling us "how" in the sense of the "-ly" of a manner > adverb, but "how much" in the sense of an adverb of extent. It was early > pointed out that "to the best of their abilities" might serve as a > possible paraphrase telling "to what extent." Sometimes a verb can seem > to take an extent as a direct object: "He ran three miles,." but I think > this is really better seen as a degree adverb modifying an adverb of > extent that is understood: "He ran three miles (far)." Perhaps we can > compare this to, "He tried his best (try)." (Cf. "He fought a good > fight.") This makes it an averb of extent modifying an understood noun of > action. (The analysis of adverbial nouns seems to get so convoluted.) > > Bruce > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 7:50 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: New Sentence > > Bill, > I think "mightily" works in sentence opening position if you intone (or > puncutate) it properly. this is even clearer if it's intensified. > > "Mightily, artists have tried to express what love means to them." > > "Oh so mightily, artists have tried to express what love means to them." > > The movability awkwardness with "their best" might just come from the fact > that it has become a somewhat fixed construction. The following seems OK > to me: "Their very very best, artists have tried to express what love > means to them." > > Has anyone pointed out yet that "try" can be intransitive? "He tries > hard." "He just doesn't try." "He tries on Tuesdays." "He tries > Tuesdays." "He tries when he feels like it." In that pattern, "He tries > his best" would still not give us "his best" as direct object. "What" > he is trying to accomplish would be missing or--more > likely--understood. > > I'm voting heavily for "his best" as adverbial and am not sure it would > ever be direct object. > > Craig > I may have just posted "dud" email by mistake right before this one , so >> apologies for that -- I'm using a different front end program for email >> than I'm used to. Here's what it was supposed to be: >> >> Martha, Dick, et al., >> >> Just some potential support: I've tried substituting in "mightily" for >> "their best" to see if the patterns are roughly the same, on the logic >> that "mightily" is pretty clearly a manner adverb and its meaning is in >> the same ballpark as "their best" in this context (I know, it's >> colloquial, and similarity in meaning doesn't always entail similarity >> in >> structure, but still...): >> >> Artists have tried mightily to express what love means to them. >> Artists have tried their best to express what love means to them. >> >> ?Artists have mightily tried to express what love means to them. >> *Artists have their best tried to express what love means to them. >> >> *Mightly artists have tried to express what love means to them. >> *Their best artists have tried to express what love means to them. >> (sequence is possible but only with different meaning) >> >> *Artists have tried express what love means to them mightily. >> *Artists have tried to express what love means to them their best. >> >> The only real problem for the manner adverb view, I think, is the >> impossibility of having "their best" fall between the first aux (finite >> marker) and the rest of the verbal group, but trying to put "mightily" >> there produces some awkwardness as well -- it may be yet another example >> of the "heavy material goes after the head" pattern, although some other >> manner adverbs make that claim iffy. >> >> Bill Spruiell >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of MARTHA >> KOLLN >> Sent: Sat 5/2/2009 9:48 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: New Sentence >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 1, 2009 09:34 AM, Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>>Beth, Dick, et al., >> >> >>> >>>Sentences can get really tricky (and ambiguous) when idioms like "tried >>> their >> best" are involved. The first thing I questioned about the artist >> sentence >> was whether the infinitive phrase could be written with "in order," >> which >> I >> consider the first test for "adverbial": >> >> >>> >>> I drove fast [in order] to get home in time for the news. >>> >> >> >>> >>>The other test, as someone mentioned, is movability: >> >> >>> >>> To get home in time for the news, I drove fast. >>> >> >> >>> >>>When "try" is connected with an infinitive, that infinitive is nearly >>> always a >> direct object--a "something" or "someone": >> >> >>> >>> I tried to get home in time for the news. i.e., I tried >>> "something." >>> >> >> >>> >>>In the artist sentence, it seems to me that the infinitive passes the >> "something" test more clearly than the "in order to" test. It's true >> that >> "tried their best" is indeed a common expression, I think that "tried >> very >> hard" is what it means (an adverbial of degree), rather than "tried >> something." >> >> >>> >>>For the infinitive phrase here to be adverbial--to pass either the "in >>> order" >> test or the movability test--the sentence would need a clear "something" >> as >> direct object: >> >> >>> >>> Artists of all kinds have tried beauty and truth in all of its >>> manifestations >> [in order] to express what love means to them. >> >> >>> >>>This sentence works in the passive: >> >> >>> >>> Beauty and truth in all of their manifestations have been tried by >>> artists to >> express what love means to them. >> >> >>> >>>While the original artist sentence, with its infinitive as direct >>> object, >> doesn't work in the passive, that doesn't mean it isn't transitive. Most >> transitive verbs that take infinitives (want, like, expect, etc.) are >> not >> passive candidates either: >> >> >>> >>> I want to take piano lessons. >> >> >>> >>> I like to play the guitar. >>> >> >> >>> >>> I expect to perform at Carnegie Hall. >>> >> >> >>> >>>Verbs that take gerunds as direct objects could possibly be squeezed >>> into >>> a >> passive, but it's not very comfortable: >> >> >>> >>> The audience enjoyed listening to the guitar >>> music. >>> >> >> >>> >>> ?Listening to the guitar music was enjoyed by the >>> audience. [I don't >>> think >> so!] >>> >> >> >>> >>>That's my take on those expressive artists. >> >> >>> >>>Martha >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>>Beth, >>> >>>Good point. Our problem is that "tried my best" is an idiomatic phrase, >>> which >> limits internal analysis. All of these are possible: >>> >>> >> >> >>>I tried to succeed. >>>I attempted to succeed. >>> >> I endeavored to succeed. >>> >>> >> But "my best" only works with "tried": >>> >>>>I tried my best to succeed. >>>* I attempted my best to succeed. >>>* I endeavored my best to succeed. >>> >>> >> Interestingly, it is also possible to use "tried my best" in a >> different, >> nonidiomatic way, where "my best" is the direct object: >>> >>>>First I tried a half-hearted effort, but it didn't work, so I tried my >>>> best, >> and that worked. >>> >>> >> Unlike the other uses, here "my best" is what was tried, not how >> something >> was >> tried. >>> >>>Dick >>> >>>>On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Beth Young <<#>> wrote: >>> >> Hi Dick, >>> >>> >> Interesting! I find your reasoning very persuasive. >>> >>> >> Still . . . "their best" isn't at all moveable. And there are lots of >> examples of "x gave y their best," in which "their best" is a direct >> object. >>> >>> >> Could it be that our intuition about how fixed an entity "their best" >> is? >> i.e., if you think of "their best" as a discrete, identifiable effort, >> like a >> poem or a chocolate souffle, then the phrase seems nominal and "to >> express >> what >> love means to them" seems adverbial. But if you think of "their best" >> as >> a >> kind of move in a certain direction (like moving towards the >> horizon--you >> never >> arrive), then "to express what love means to them" seems more nominal >> and >> "their best" more adverbial. >>> >>> >> (I'm a bit boggled to hear myself proposing that the distinction between >> nominal/adverbial can be ambiguous.) >>> >>> >> Beth >>> >>> >>>>> Dick Veit <<#>> 4/30/2009 6:40 PM >>> >>>> >>> >>>Beth, >>> >>> >> Re: "Artists of all kinds have tried their best to express what love >> means >>> >> to them." >>> >>> >> The phrase "to express what love means to them" is certainly an >> infinitive >>> >> phrase, but is it adverbial or nominal? >>> >>> >> - I tried a poem to express my love. >>> >> This infinitive phrase is adverbial, indicating why I tried the >>> >> poem. >>> >> - I tried to express my love. >>> >> This infinitive phrase is nominal, the direct object of >> "tried." >>> >>> >> I opt for nominal in our sentence. I think "their best" is an adverbial, >> not >>> >> the direct object, since it answers the question "Tried how?" rather >> than >>> >> "Tried what?" On the other hand, "to express what love means to them" >> can >>> >> answer the question "Tried what?" so I'd say it is the direct object. >>> >>> >> Dick >>> >>> >>> >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Beth Young <<#>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> "Artists of all kinds have tried their best to express what love >>> means >>> to >>> >>> them." >>> >>> >>> >>> Here's my take: "to express what love means to them" is an adverbial >>> >>> infinitive phrase. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. You can move it around: To express what love means to them, artists >>> of >>> >>> all kinds have tried their best. >>> >>> >>> >>> 2. It answers the question "why" or "in what manner" the verb happens. >>> >>> Artists of all kinds have tried their best. Why? "to express what love >>> >>> means to them." >>> >>> >>> >>> Without that adverbial infinitive phrase, it's easier to see that the >>> main >>> >>> sentence is transitive: THEY have tried SOMETHING. >>> >>> >>> >>> "Their best" is a noun phrase/direct object. I don't have a problem >>> with >>> >>> "best" functioning as a noun--contrast with "their happy" which clearly >>> >>> doesn't work. >>> >>> >>> >>> To make the whole sentence passive would be clunky, but it is doable: >>> >>> >>> >>> "To express what love means to them, their best has been tried (by >>> artists >>> >>> of all kinds)." >>> >>> >>> >>> This passive sentence is bothersome, not so much because of the passive >>> >>> voice, but because we don't know who "them" and "their" refers to until >>> we >>> >>> get to the end. I could imagine writing this sort of passage: >>> >>> >>> >>> Their best has been tried. (And it still wasn't good enough.) >>> >>> >>> >>> That's how I see it, anyway. Thanks for the distraction from paper >>> >>> grading. >>> >>> >>> >>> Beth >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: >>> >> <http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> >>> >> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> >> Visit ATEG's web site at <http://ateg.org/> >>> >>> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >>> >> <http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> >>> >> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> >> Visit ATEG's web site at <http://ateg.org/> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >>> >>> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Martha Kolln >> >> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended > recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. 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