Hi Scott and Brad,
I admit that I am young and know very little - but I'd like to chime in for
the fun of it. I agree with you, Brad, that going public was perhaps a bit
much, but I'm not sure if I agree with your position on the past perfect. It
seems to me that the past perfect is something that depends largely on
context at a discourse level and is difficult to break down into isolated
sentences. For example
*I had read most of the classics (in English)--fiction and non-fiction--
before high school. I attended the then top-rated public high school in
FL. In most classes, papers were expected to be well-phrased as well as
content appropriate.*
Here, the past perfect seems appropriate given the context of more events
(high school, college) in the past following this accomplishment. If he said
the first sentence alone, I'd prefer the simple past.
When I read Scott's email, all of his uses of the past perfect seemed
appropriate to me.
Thoughts?
Jessica Horstmann
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> "All artists quiver under the lash of adverse criticism", Catherine Drinker
> Bowen.
>
> Scott.
>
> Note that I wrote to you *privately* and YOU took it public. I have agreed
> to not pursue the past perfect on the list but I will reply the same way
> your message came to me, as I was taught is polite.
>
> You wrote and I corrected, "I (*had read*) *read* most of the classics (in
> English) -- fiction and non-fiction -- before high school", and you object.
>
> So you would prefer to say that World War One *had* *been* *fought* before
> World War Two, and that I *had* *thought* twice before I responded to your
> message?
>
> He (had been) *was* thoroughly disillusioned by the bigotry and stupidity
> of the dean at a time on the past.
>
> *All* past events were preceded by other past events. The past tense of
> 'to be' is 'was' (singular) and 'were' (plural), NOT 'had been'.
>
> Her taking of classes was a completed action before her past tense claim.
>
> So she *had* *taken* Cicero her junior year and Virgil her senior year,
> rather than "She *took* Cicero her junior year .."? One has to complete
> one's junior year before one can be a senior.
>
> If you think that's how the past perfect works, I wonder how you define it.
> Go ahead and try it. I've invited many ATEGians to do so and *not a single
> one can do it*. That's how far behind we (the English-speaking world) are
> in teaching a useful tense, the past perfect (by whatever name).
>
> One man tried it by saying, "The past perfect is 'had' plus the past
> participle", which is more than a tad shy of the mark, rather like saying a
> train is a thing with wheels (as are rickshaws and lawn mowers).
>
> .cheers.brad.22may09.
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 5/22/09, Scott <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: RE: Well-crafted English works
> To: [log in to unmask], "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'"
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 9:55 AM
>
> My reading of classics was a completed action before my past tense
> attendance at high school.
>
>
>
> Her taking of classes was a completed action before her past tense claim.
>
>
>
> Our correction of papers a completed action before our past return of the
> papers to the professors( —or our geese would have been cooked).
>
>
>
> My seeing was in the past; the inaction of the students was a completed
> past (in)action before my past seeing took place.
>
>
>
> At the time in the past when the last meeting occurred, my colleague most
> certainly “was *NOT *enthusiastic” or he would not have been seeking
>
> another position. He had been thoroughly dis ill usioned by the bigotry
> and stupidity of the dean at a time on the past. Not even the grossest of
>
> nescience can justify the ignorance/ ill iteracy shown in the suggested
> change to the sentence. If you know that little about English, you are
>
> wasting my time and everyone else’s on this list.
>
>
>
> I have more to do than waste my time with a patently ill iterate commenter.
>
>
>
> Do not bother replying; I shall not waste my valuable time reading such
> asininities.
>
>
>
> I disagree very strongly with some of the posters but I respect their
> opinions. Your usage of tenses would rate an F in my eighth-grade English
>
> class if I were teaching one again. In my seventh grade class, I would
> only fail you after I had taught sequence of tenses. I should remark that
>
> none of my seventh-grade students failed a test requiring them to write
> using correct sequence of tenses. Then again, they were primarily the
>
> children of homes where the parents read no newspapers or magazines.
>
>
>
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
>
> Professor Emeritus
>
> history & languages
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2009 8:04 AM
> *To:* Scott Catledge
> *Subject:* Well-crafted English works
>
>
>
> I (*had read*) *read* most of the classics (in English) -- fiction and
> non-fiction -- before high school.
>
> Mississippians could graduate with pitifully few academic credits: a very
> intelligent friend claimed that she (*had taken*) *took* all 10 academic
> classes that were offered by her school.
>
> It was legal for us to show our marked and corrected themes to each other
> to ensure that we (*had corrected*) *corrected* all the errors before we
> turned them back to the professor.
>
>
>
> I saw students who (*had never written*) *never wrote* a theme turn in
> well-crafted papers by the end of third quarter.
>
>
> Then again, I met a colleague at SAMLA who (*had been*) *was* enthusiastic
> about his
> up-coming assignment to establish a Freshman English curriculum at his new
> school.
>
>
>
> He (*had been told*) *was* *told* that his new English classes were
> efforts to impose a outdated middle-class White written language that
> insulted the multi-cultured body by both indicating that their modes of
> expression were not just as valuable as his and by his
> insistence on making them write and grading their written work products.
>
>
>
>
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>
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