Or, *if he had said the first sentence alone, I would prefer/have preferred the simple past? . . . *:) On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Jessica Horstmann < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi Scott and Brad, > > I admit that I am young and know very little - but I'd like to chime in for > the fun of it. I agree with you, Brad, that going public was perhaps a bit > much, but I'm not sure if I agree with your position on the past perfect. It > seems to me that the past perfect is something that depends largely on > context at a discourse level and is difficult to break down into isolated > sentences. For example > > *I had read most of the classics (in English)--fiction and non-fiction-- > before high school. I attended the then top-rated public high school in > FL. In most classes, papers were expected to be well-phrased as well as > content appropriate.* > > Here, the past perfect seems appropriate given the context of more events > (high school, college) in the past following this accomplishment. If he said > the first sentence alone, I'd prefer the simple past. > > When I read Scott's email, all of his uses of the past perfect seemed > appropriate to me. > > Thoughts? > > Jessica Horstmann > > > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > >> "All artists quiver under the lash of adverse criticism", Catherine >> Drinker Bowen. >> >> Scott. >> >> Note that I wrote to you *privately* and YOU took it public. I have >> agreed to not pursue the past perfect on the list but I will reply the same >> way your message came to me, as I was taught is polite. >> >> You wrote and I corrected, "I (*had read*) *read* most of the classics >> (in English) -- fiction and non-fiction -- before high school", and you >> object. >> >> So you would prefer to say that World War One *had* *been* *fought*before World War Two, and that I >> *had* *thought* twice before I responded to your message? >> >> He (had been) *was* thoroughly disillusioned by the bigotry and stupidity >> of the dean at a time on the past. >> >> *All* past events were preceded by other past events. The past tense of >> 'to be' is 'was' (singular) and 'were' (plural), NOT 'had been'. >> >> Her taking of classes was a completed action before her past tense claim. >> >> So she *had* *taken* Cicero her junior year and Virgil her senior year, >> rather than "She *took* Cicero her junior year .."? One has to complete >> one's junior year before one can be a senior. >> >> If you think that's how the past perfect works, I wonder how you define >> it. Go ahead and try it. I've invited many ATEGians to do so and *not a >> single one can do it*. That's how far behind we (the English-speaking >> world) are in teaching a useful tense, the past perfect (by whatever name). >> >> One man tried it by saying, "The past perfect is 'had' plus the past >> participle", which is more than a tad shy of the mark, rather like saying a >> train is a thing with wheels (as are rickshaws and lawn mowers). >> >> .cheers.brad.22may09. >> >> >> --- On *Fri, 5/22/09, Scott <[log in to unmask]>* wrote: >> >> >> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: RE: Well-crafted English works >> To: [log in to unmask], "'Assembly for the Teaching of English >> Grammar'" <[log in to unmask]> >> Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 9:55 AM >> >> My reading of classics was a completed action before my past tense >> attendance at high school. >> >> >> >> Her taking of classes was a completed action before her past tense claim. >> >> >> >> Our correction of papers a completed action before our past return of the >> papers to the professors( —or our geese would have been cooked). >> >> >> >> My seeing was in the past; the inaction of the students was a completed >> past (in)action before my past seeing took place. >> >> >> >> At the time in the past when the last meeting occurred, my colleague most >> certainly “was *NOT *enthusiastic” or he would not have been seeking >> >> another position. He had been thoroughly dis ill usioned by the bigotry >> and stupidity of the dean at a time on the past. Not even the grossest of >> >> nescience can justify the ignorance/ ill iteracy shown in the suggested >> change to the sentence. If you know that little about English, you are >> >> wasting my time and everyone else’s on this list. >> >> >> >> I have more to do than waste my time with a patently ill iterate >> commenter. >> >> >> >> Do not bother replying; I shall not waste my valuable time reading such >> asininities. >> >> >> >> I disagree very strongly with some of the posters but I respect their >> opinions. Your usage of tenses would rate an F in my eighth-grade English >> >> class if I were teaching one again. In my seventh grade class, I would >> only fail you after I had taught sequence of tenses. I should remark that >> >> none of my seventh-grade students failed a test requiring them to write >> using correct sequence of tenses. Then again, they were primarily the >> >> children of homes where the parents read no newspapers or magazines. >> >> >> >> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD >> >> Professor Emeritus >> >> history & languages >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >> *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2009 8:04 AM >> *To:* Scott Catledge >> *Subject:* Well-crafted English works >> >> >> >> I (*had read*) *read* most of the classics (in English) -- fiction and >> non-fiction -- before high school. >> >> Mississippians could graduate with pitifully few academic credits: a very >> intelligent friend claimed that she (*had taken*) *took* all 10 academic >> classes that were offered by her school. >> >> It was legal for us to show our marked and corrected themes to each other >> to ensure that we (*had corrected*) *corrected* all the errors before we >> turned them back to the professor. >> >> >> >> I saw students who (*had never written*) *never wrote* a theme turn in >> well-crafted papers by the end of third quarter. >> >> >> Then again, I met a colleague at SAMLA who (*had been*) *was*enthusiastic about his >> up-coming assignment to establish a Freshman English curriculum at his new >> school. >> >> >> >> He (*had been told*) *was* *told* that his new English classes were >> efforts to impose a outdated middle-class White written language that >> insulted the multi-cultured body by both indicating that their modes of >> expression were not just as valuable as his and by his >> insistence on making them write and grading their written work products. >> >> >> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/