Or, *if he had said the first sentence alone, I would prefer/have preferred
the simple past? . . .  *:)

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Jessica Horstmann <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Scott and Brad,
>
> I admit that I am young and know very little - but I'd like to chime in for
> the fun of it. I agree with you, Brad, that going public was perhaps a bit
> much, but I'm not sure if I agree with your position on the past perfect. It
> seems to me that the past perfect is something that depends largely on
> context at a discourse level and is difficult to break down into isolated
> sentences. For example
>
> *I had read most of the classics (in English)--fiction and non-fiction--
> before high school.  I attended the then top-rated public high school in
> FL.  In most classes, papers were expected to be well-phrased as well as
> content appropriate.*
>
> Here, the past perfect seems appropriate given the context of more events
> (high school, college) in the past following this accomplishment. If he said
> the first sentence alone, I'd prefer the simple past.
>
> When I read Scott's email, all of his uses of the past perfect seemed
> appropriate to me.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Jessica Horstmann
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> "All artists quiver under the lash of adverse criticism", Catherine
>> Drinker Bowen.
>>
>> Scott.
>>
>> Note that I wrote to you *privately* and YOU took it public. I have
>> agreed to not pursue the past perfect on the list but I will reply the same
>> way your message came to me, as I was taught is polite.
>>
>> You wrote and I corrected, "I (*had read*) *read* most of the classics
>> (in English) -- fiction and non-fiction -- before high school", and you
>> object.
>>
>> So you would prefer to say that World War One *had* *been* *fought*before World War Two, and that I
>> *had* *thought* twice before I responded to your message?
>>
>> He (had been) *was* thoroughly disillusioned by the bigotry and stupidity
>> of the dean at a time on the past.
>>
>> *All* past events were preceded by other past events. The past tense of
>> 'to be' is 'was' (singular) and 'were' (plural), NOT 'had been'.
>>
>> Her taking of classes was a completed action before her past tense claim.
>>
>> So she *had* *taken* Cicero her junior year and Virgil her senior year,
>> rather than "She *took* Cicero her junior year .."? One has to complete
>> one's junior year before one can be a senior.
>>
>> If you think that's how the past perfect works, I wonder how you define
>> it. Go ahead and try it. I've invited many ATEGians to do so and *not a
>> single one can do it*. That's how far behind we (the English-speaking
>> world) are in teaching a useful tense, the past perfect (by whatever name).
>>
>> One man tried it by saying, "The past perfect is 'had' plus the past
>> participle", which is more than a tad shy of the mark, rather like saying a
>> train is a thing with wheels (as are rickshaws and lawn mowers).
>>
>> .cheers.brad.22may09.
>>
>>
>> --- On *Fri, 5/22/09, Scott <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: RE: Well-crafted English works
>> To: [log in to unmask], "'Assembly for the Teaching of English
>> Grammar'" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 9:55 AM
>>
>>  My reading of classics was a completed action before my past tense
>> attendance at high school.
>>
>>
>>
>> Her taking of classes was a completed action before her past tense claim.
>>
>>
>>
>> Our correction of papers a completed action before our past return of the
>> papers to the professors( —or our geese would have been cooked).
>>
>>
>>
>> My seeing was in the past; the inaction of the students was a completed
>> past (in)action before my past seeing took place.
>>
>>
>>
>> At the time in the past when the last meeting occurred, my colleague most
>> certainly “was *NOT *enthusiastic” or he would not have been seeking
>>
>> another position.  He had been thoroughly dis ill usioned by the bigotry
>> and stupidity of the dean at a time on the past.  Not even the grossest of
>>
>> nescience can justify the ignorance/ ill iteracy shown in the suggested
>> change to the sentence.  If you know that little about English, you are
>>
>> wasting my time and everyone else’s on this list.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have more to do than waste my time with a patently ill iterate
>> commenter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do not bother replying; I shall not waste my valuable time reading such
>> asininities.
>>
>>
>>
>> I disagree very strongly with some of the posters but I respect their
>> opinions.  Your usage of tenses would rate an F in my eighth-grade English
>>
>> class if I were teaching one again.  In my seventh grade class, I would
>> only fail you after I had taught sequence of tenses.  I should remark that
>>
>> none of my seventh-grade students failed a test requiring them to write
>> using correct sequence of tenses.  Then again, they were primarily the
>>
>> children of homes where the parents read no newspapers or magazines.
>>
>>
>>
>> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
>>
>> Professor Emeritus
>>
>> history & languages
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2009 8:04 AM
>> *To:* Scott Catledge
>> *Subject:* Well-crafted English works
>>
>>
>>
>> I (*had read*) *read* most of the classics (in English) -- fiction and
>> non-fiction -- before high school.
>>
>> Mississippians could graduate with pitifully few academic credits: a very
>> intelligent friend claimed that she (*had taken*) *took* all 10 academic
>> classes that were offered by her school.
>>
>> It was legal for us to show our marked and corrected themes to each other
>> to ensure that we (*had corrected*) *corrected* all the errors before we
>> turned them back to the professor.
>>
>>
>>
>> I saw students who (*had never written*) *never wrote* a theme turn in
>> well-crafted papers by the end of third quarter.
>>
>>
>> Then again, I met a colleague at SAMLA who (*had been*) *was*enthusiastic about his
>> up-coming assignment to establish a Freshman English curriculum at his new
>> school.
>>
>>
>>
>> He (*had been told*) *was* *told* that his new English classes were
>> efforts to impose a outdated middle-class White written language that
>> insulted the multi-cultured body by both indicating that their modes of
>> expression were not just as valuable as his and by his
>> insistence on making them write and grading their written work products.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>
>

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