Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still believe it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea that I was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.) I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought you were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am not enjoying myself. Susan On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote: > Susan, > I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward a mature > literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should all be > constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far, far from > perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our profession > as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if what we > are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you posted to > the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings to keep > from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of > conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at all to do > with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad teacher. We > simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an open mind. > I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was never > intended to be personal. > That being said, I would ask you to question seriously whether the > "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate. It says, > first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50% of the > time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly study. The > studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a professional > writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an average of > about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the > highest > about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the case, > then > students already vary sentence openings more than mature writers. I > would add that the writers in the study were successful, not boring. > I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical > Grammar" as a > more linguistically sound source of advice. > But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I apologize if > anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a > teacher. > As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully grounded, > effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful of each > other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures > on my > part to do that. > > Craig > > > Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style guides. >> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing >> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same starting word >> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more >> outrage, tar, and feathers! >> >> Sentence Beginnings >> Vary the beginnings of your sentences. >> >> >> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject—far >> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But >> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous >> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your >> sentences. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> WORDS >> >> >> >> >> >> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to >> fight back. >> >> >> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and clattering came >> from the heights around us. >> >> >> >> A connecting word: For students who have just survived the >> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere is all >> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high school, >> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers. >> >> >> >> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as >> important as a healthy mind. >> >> >> >> A series of words: Light, water, temperature, minerals— >> these affect the health of plants. >> >> PHRASES >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of >> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For one >> thing, it can be ruthless. >> >> >> >> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of >> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this >> existence. >> >> >> >> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will >> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer. >> >> >> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise program >> is essential. >> >> >> A participle: Looking out of the window high over >> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse >> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead surrounded >> by fields. >> >> >> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission provides >> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless. >> >> >> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went on the >> attack. >> >> CLAUSES >> >> >> >> >> >> >> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing—and I think >> it's true for a lot of beginning writers—you’re scared to death that >> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never going to >> show up again. >> >> >> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a joiner of >> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of a group >> of animal lovers. >> >> >> >> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a questions to >> ask a geologist. >> >> >> >> >> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote: >> >>> Susan, >>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students >>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you >>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it. >>> >>> What method do you use to teach the different possible variations? >>> >>> Jean Waldman >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten" >>> <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:21 PM >>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions >>> >>> >>> Craig, I just don't understand your logic. You were asked to >>> evaluate two passages that contained the same content. The first >>> had >>> boring sentence starts and the second had variation. You admitted >>> the second had "more flexibility" but then concluded that it doesn't >>> make it better and went on to speak for Ed that he couldn't possibly >>> believe the varying sentence starts made it better. >>> >>> That struck me as arrogantly dismissive. >>> >>> Do you have any proof that teaching students how to vary their >>> sentence starts compromises their ability to write with coherence? >>> It seems like such a stretch Varying a sentence start doesn't >>> force >>> students to vary the subject. If varying sentence starts doesn't >>> lead to incoherence, would you change your stance? Or do you have >>> other concerns as well. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> On May 20, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Craig Hancock wrote: >>> >>>> Susan, >>>> I'm sorry if I come across as arrogantly dismissive. I don't >>>> mean to >>>> be. I do believe that teaching students to vary sentence >>>> openings is >>>> not a good idea, and I have given that a great deal of study and >>>> thought. I believe that the conventional advice to vary sentence >>>> openings is not based on close observation of how language works in >>>> effective texts. I'm not sure why you would say those points are >>>> irrelevant. Asking students to vary sentence openings may have the >>>> effect of pushing them further away from coherence--at best, a >>>> distraction from more relevant choices. >>>> Here's a opening passage--chosen in part because I already >>>> have it in >>>> an electronic file to copy from--from Leslie Silko's "Yellow >>>> woman". >>>> It's a short story, so the sentence openings are more typical of >>>> narrative than of a more expository text, but the sentence >>>> openings are >>>> quite unremarkable, almost entirely pronouns. I hope we can base >>>> the >>>> discussion on observations of effective writing, not on personal >>>> preferences. >>>> >>>> Yellow Woman (Leslie Silko) >>>> >>>> My thigh clung to his with dampness, and I watched the sun >>>> rising up >>>> through the tamaracks and willows. The small brown water birds >>>> came to >>>> the river and hopped across the mud, leaving brown scratches in the >>>> alkali-white crust. They bathed in the river silently. I could hear >>>> the water, almost at our feet where the narrow fast channel bubbled >>>> and washed green ragged moss and fern leaves. I looked at him >>>> beside >>>> me, rolled in the red blanket on the white river sand. I cleaned >>>> the >>>> sand out of the cracks between my toes, squinting because the >>>> sun was >>>> above the willow trees. I looked at him for the last time, >>>> sleeping on >>>> the white river sand. >>>> I felt hungry and followed the river south the way we had >>>> come the >>>> night before, following our footprints that were already blurred by >>>> lizard tracks and bug trails. The horses were still lying down, and >>>> the black one whinnied when he saw me but he did not get up— >>>> maybe it >>>> was because the corral was made out of thick cedar branches and the >>>> horse had not yet felt the sun like I had. I tried to look >>>> beyond the >>>> pale red mesas to the pueblo. I knew it was there, even if I could >>>> not see it, on the sandrock hill above the river, the same river >>>> that >>>> moved past me now and had reflected the moon last night. >>>> The horse felt warm underneath me. He shook his head and pawed >>>> the >>>> sand. The bay whinnied and leaned against the gate trying to >>>> follow, >>>> and I remembered him asleep inside the red blanket beside the >>>> river. I >>>> slid off the horse and tied him close to the other horse, I waked >>>> north with the river again, and the white sand broke loose in >>>> footprints over footprints. >>>> “Wake up.” >>>> He moved in the blanket and turned his face to me with his >>>> eyes still >>>> closed. I knelt down to touch him. >>>> “I’m leaving.” >>>> He smiled now, eyes still closed. “You are coming with me, >>>> remember?” >>>> He sat up now with his bare dark chest and belly in the sun. >>>> “Where?” >>>> “To my place.” >>>> “And will I come back?” >>>> He pulled his pants on. I walked away from him, feeling him >>>> behind me >>>> and smelling the willows. >>>> “Yellow woman,” he said. >>>> I turned to face him. “Who are you?” I asked. >>>> He laughed and knelt on the low, sandy bank, washing his face >>>> in the >>>> river. “Last night you guessed my name, and you knew why I had >>>> come.” >>>> I stared past him at the shallow moving water and tried to >>>> remember >>>> the night, but I could only see the moon in the water and remember >>>> his warmth around me. >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> I sounded snarky in my last email. I'm sorry for that. But you >>>>> really are arrogantly dismissive of something I teach my >>>>> students as >>>>> a mini-lesson but do not require them to do in their essays. I >>>>> have >>>>> seen better writing from them, and it is annoying to have such >>>>> strong >>>>> evidence be dismissed without much thought. I do think you >>>>> have not >>>>> thought this through. >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 20, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Susan van Druten wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On May 20, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Craig Hancock wrote: >>>>>>> You can certainly make the judgment that Ed's version shows more >>>>>>> flexibility on the part of the writer, but it doesn't make it a >>>>>>> better essay, >>>>>> >>>>>> Craig, it's clearly better. You offer no evidence for why it is >>>>>> worse or even equal. Own up, dude: It is clearly better, but, >>>>>> yes, it still sucks. Your tower is showing. >>>>>> >>>>>> The rest of your argument is irrelevant. You are preaching to >>>>>> the >>>>>> choir. We do know what makes a good essay. We know that varying >>>>>> sentence starts is not a panacea. >>>>>> >>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >>>>>> select "Join or leave the list" >>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>>> interface >>>>> at: >>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>>> >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/