John, you have actually made my point.
You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate,
and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice."
If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up their
sentence starts.
Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
(unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is what
teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school classroom. They
do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix the core problem.
I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can keep
trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts with
what I have experienced.
On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate
> topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the
> structure).
>
> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>
> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me) quite
> a distraction from the real problems that indicate the maturity of
> the writing. The writer would not improve the core problems and
> would likely produce confusing sentences (unnecessarily complex
> structures) out of a belief that that is what teachers want.
>
> John Alexander
> Austin, Texas
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your
> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover
> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."
>
> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
> sentence starts?
>
> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie’s weight to leaves
> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
> realizes that she doesn’t have that much longer.
>
> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>
>> Susan,
>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that varying
>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>> opening)is
>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those
>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>> students
>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a
>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which starts
>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie Silko's
>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of
>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>> copied
>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for long
>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with
>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and repeating
>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.
>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>> flow in a
>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>> always
>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the
>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>> opening
>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>> repetition
>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too
>> quickly.
>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different
>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should
>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be used for
>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>> kind of
>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>> sentences is
>> another.
>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>> that most
>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have variation
>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>> adverbials.
>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>> harmful to
>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them to
>> see
>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>> subjects, to
>> build coherence into texts.
>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>> teaching
>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still believe
>>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to
>>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea that I
>>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>>
>>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought you
>>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am
>>> not enjoying myself.
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward a
>>>> mature
>>>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should all be
>>>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far, far
>>>> from
>>>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>>>> profession
>>>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>>>> what we
>>>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>>>> posted to
>>>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>>>> to keep
>>>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>>>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at all
>>>> to do
>>>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad teacher. We
>>>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an open
>>>> mind.
>>>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was never
>>>> intended to be personal.
>>>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>>>> whether the
>>>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate. It
>>>> says,
>>>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50% of
>>>> the
>>>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly study. The
>>>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>>>> professional
>>>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an average of
>>>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the
>>>> highest
>>>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the case,
>>>> then
>>>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature writers. I
>>>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>>>> boring.
>>>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>>>> Grammar" as a
>>>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>>>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>>>> apologize if
>>>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>>>> teacher.
>>>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>>>> grounded,
>>>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>>>> of each
>>>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures
>>>> on my
>>>> part to do that.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>>>> guides.
>>>>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing
>>>>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same starting
>>>>> word
>>>>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more
>>>>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sentence Beginnings
>>>>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject—far
>>>>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But
>>>>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>>>>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your
>>>>> sentences.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WORDS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to
>>>>> fight back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>>>>> clattering came
>>>>> from the heights around us.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A connecting word: For students who have just survived
>>>>> the
>>>>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>>>>> is all
>>>>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>>>>> school,
>>>>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as
>>>>> important as a healthy mind.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature, minerals—
>>>>> these affect the health of plants.
>>>>>
>>>>> PHRASES
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>>>>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For one
>>>>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of
>>>>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this
>>>>> existence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will
>>>>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>>>>> program
>>>>> is essential.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A participle: Looking out of the window high
>>>>> over
>>>>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>>>>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>>>>> surrounded
>>>>> by fields.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>>>>> provides
>>>>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went
>>>>> on the
>>>>> attack.
>>>>>
>>>>> CLAUSES
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing—and I
>>>>> think
>>>>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers—you’re scared to death
>>>>> that
>>>>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>>>>> going to
>>>>> show up again.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a joiner of
>>>>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of a
>>>>> group
>>>>> of animal lovers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>>>>> questions to
>>>>> ask a geologist.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Susan,
>>>>>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students
>>>>>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you
>>>>>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>>>>>> variations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jean Waldman
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:21 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig, I just don't understand your logic. You were asked to
>>>>>> evaluate two passages that contained the same content. The first
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> boring sentence starts and the second had variation. You
>>>>>> admitted
>>>>>> the second had "more flexibility" but then concluded that it
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> make it better and went on to speak for Ed that he couldn't
>>>>>> possibly
>>>>>> believe the varying sentence starts made it better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That struck me as arrogantly dismissive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have any proof that teaching students how to vary their
>>>>>> sentence starts compromises their ability to write with
>>>>>> coherence?
>>>>>> It seems like such a stretch Varying a sentence start doesn't
>>>>>> force
>>>>>> students to vary the subject. If varying sentence starts doesn't
>>>>>> lead to incoherence, would you change your stance? Or do you
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> other concerns as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 20, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Susan,
>>>>>>> I'm sorry if I come across as arrogantly dismissive. I don't
>>>>>>> mean to
>>>>>>> be. I do believe that teaching students to vary sentence
>>>>>>> openings is
>>>>>>> not a good idea, and I have given that a great deal of study and
>>>>>>> thought. I believe that the conventional advice to vary
>>>>>>> sentence
>>>>>>> openings is not based on close observation of how language
>>>>>>> works in
>>>>>>> effective texts. I'm not sure why you would say those points are
>>>>>>> irrelevant. Asking students to vary sentence openings may
>>>>>>> have the
>>>>>>> effect of pushing them further away from coherence--at best, a
>>>>>>> distraction from more relevant choices.
>>>>>>> Here's a opening passage--chosen in part because I already
>>>>>>> have it in
>>>>>>> an electronic file to copy from--from Leslie Silko's "Yellow
>>>>>>> woman".
>>>>>>> It's a short story, so the sentence openings are more typical of
>>>>>>> narrative than of a more expository text, but the sentence
>>>>>>> openings are
>>>>>>> quite unremarkable, almost entirely pronouns. I hope we can base
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> discussion on observations of effective writing, not on personal
>>>>>>> preferences.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yellow Woman (Leslie Silko)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My thigh clung to his with dampness, and I watched the sun
>>>>>>> rising up
>>>>>>> through the tamaracks and willows. The small brown water birds
>>>>>>> came to
>>>>>>> the river and hopped across the mud, leaving brown scratches
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> alkali-white crust. They bathed in the river silently. I
>>>>>>> could hear
>>>>>>> the water, almost at our feet where the narrow fast channel
>>>>>>> bubbled
>>>>>>> and washed green ragged moss and fern leaves. I looked at him
>>>>>>> beside
>>>>>>> me, rolled in the red blanket on the white river sand. I cleaned
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> sand out of the cracks between my toes, squinting because the
>>>>>>> sun was
>>>>>>> above the willow trees. I looked at him for the last time,
>>>>>>> sleeping on
>>>>>>> the white river sand.
>>>>>>> I felt hungry and followed the river south the way we had
>>>>>>> come the
>>>>>>> night before, following our footprints that were already
>>>>>>> blurred by
>>>>>>> lizard tracks and bug trails. The horses were still lying
>>>>>>> down, and
>>>>>>> the black one whinnied when he saw me but he did not get up—
>>>>>>> maybe it
>>>>>>> was because the corral was made out of thick cedar branches
>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>> horse had not yet felt the sun like I had. I tried to look
>>>>>>> beyond the
>>>>>>> pale red mesas to the pueblo. I knew it was there, even if I
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> not see it, on the sandrock hill above the river, the same river
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> moved past me now and had reflected the moon last night.
>>>>>>> The horse felt warm underneath me. He shook his head and
>>>>>>> pawed
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> sand. The bay whinnied and leaned against the gate trying to
>>>>>>> follow,
>>>>>>> and I remembered him asleep inside the red blanket beside the
>>>>>>> river. I
>>>>>>> slid off the horse and tied him close to the other horse, I
>>>>>>> waked
>>>>>>> north with the river again, and the white sand broke loose in
>>>>>>> footprints over footprints.
>>>>>>> “Wake up.”
>>>>>>> He moved in the blanket and turned his face to me with his
>>>>>>> eyes still
>>>>>>> closed. I knelt down to touch him.
>>>>>>> “I’m leaving.”
>>>>>>> He smiled now, eyes still closed. “You are coming with me,
>>>>>>> remember?”
>>>>>>> He sat up now with his bare dark chest and belly in the sun.
>>>>>>> “Where?”
>>>>>>> “To my place.”
>>>>>>> “And will I come back?”
>>>>>>> He pulled his pants on. I walked away from him, feeling him
>>>>>>> behind me
>>>>>>> and smelling the willows.
>>>>>>> “Yellow woman,” he said.
>>>>>>> I turned to face him. “Who are you?” I asked.
>>>>>>> He laughed and knelt on the low, sandy bank, washing his
>>>>>>> face
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> river. “Last night you guessed my name, and you knew why I had
>>>>>>> come.”
>>>>>>> I stared past him at the shallow moving water and tried to
>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>> the night, but I could only see the moon in the water and
>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>> his warmth around me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>> I sounded snarky in my last email. I'm sorry for that. But you
>>>>>>>> really are arrogantly dismissive of something I teach my
>>>>>>>> students as
>>>>>>>> a mini-lesson but do not require them to do in their essays. I
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> seen better writing from them, and it is annoying to have such
>>>>>>>> strong
>>>>>>>> evidence be dismissed without much thought. I do think you
>>>>>>>> have not
>>>>>>>> thought this through.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 20, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 20, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> You can certainly make the judgment that Ed's version
>>>>>>>>>> shows more
>>>>>>>>>> flexibility on the part of the writer, but it doesn't make
>>>>>>>>>> it a
>>>>>>>>>> better essay,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Craig, it's clearly better. You offer no evidence for why
>>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>>> worse or even equal. Own up, dude: It is clearly better,
>>>>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>>>> yes, it still sucks. Your tower is showing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The rest of your argument is irrelevant. You are preaching to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> choir. We do know what makes a good essay. We know that
>>>>>>>>> varying
>>>>>>>>> sentence starts is not a panacea.
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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